AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I think if Mimiron took offence they could sort it out in tells. Let's stay on topic?

Bobo_Underhill wrote:

Naturally, some properties are off limits, such as Bioware's True Sight, permanent haste, immunity to criticals, and OnHit: Vorpal

How about immunity to specific broken spells like tme stop and bigby's forceful?

WonWon wrote:

O, btw, there are plenty of store-bought items (if you know where to look) which have 0%ASF, as armors, tower shields, etcetera.

There are zero 0%ASF tower shields.
There is one 0%ASF large shield.
There are three 0%ASF small shields.

There are zero 0%ASF full plates.
There is one 0%ASF half plate. (Elf only)
There are five 0%ASF chain short/scale mail. (3 are Bard. 2 are elf only.)
There is one 0%ASF leather.

Hey Mimiron, I feel for ya. You're jousting at an impenetrable windmill here.
To me the DC system makes no sense whatsoever. That and epic loot will forever keep the server unbalanced.
Just accept it and enjoy all the other great aspects the server has.

DC system makes perfect sense - to those who contribute greatly to the server with excellent roleplay, the server is able to contribute back to their characters (and in a controlled fashion, I might add).

Epic Loot =/= unbalanced. Those who work harder get better gear. No epic loot drop will ever compare to a decent DC item. Here's the question:

Don't get many DCs (either you don't roleplay, don't roleplay well, or seem to have an anti-horshoe stuck up your rear)? Want good equipment? Buy/Find epic loot.

Don't have a character that cares about money, loot runs, boss hunts, or knows a lick about having two gold coins to rub together? Want good equipment? Roleplay for it.

It's perfectly balanced, to me. The real question behind all of it is this: Can you have just as good of a character without having any equipment whatsoever? Yes, yes you can. Can you have just as powerful of a character without having any epic / DC equipment? Yes - you can, believe it or not.

Can you have everything you want at the absolute best quality without having to work for it in one way or another?

No.

Quote:

The real question behind all of it is this: Can you have just as good of a character without having any equipment whatsoever? Yes, yes you can. Can you have just as powerful of a character without having any epic / DC equipment? Yes - you can, believe it or not.

Umm.. ANY BUILD! is better with better gear. It'd be like saying a racing car driver can with a race without the best car. But having the best car suddenly makes him unbeatable. I'll take the money and the bag.

Swallow the Stars wrote:

No epic loot drop will ever compare to a decent DC item.

Actually it does.
+5 Fortification Cloak
+30 Discipline gloves
+6 STR belt
Ioun stones

Nex_addo wrote:

Quote:

The real question behind all of it is this: Can you have just as good of a character without having any equipment whatsoever? Yes, yes you can. Can you have just as powerful of a character without having any epic / DC equipment? Yes - you can, believe it or not.

Umm.. ANY BUILD! is better with better gear. It'd be like saying a racing car driver can with a race without the best car. But having the best car suddenly makes him unbeatable. I'll take the money and the bag.

He wasn't talking about powerful builds, but about powerful characters.
This is an rp server, meaning there are other ways of becoming "powerful" besides smacking everyone down that doesn't agree with you. Unfortunately, gaining that power without the build is only attainable by very dedicated and/or exceptional roleplayers.

This if ofcourse a point of view that not everyone will agree to, but to everyone his own view of "power".

Regardless, the DC cost for -ASF is very low.

Available -ASF purchaseable equipment in the module heavily favours bards.

Adding 0% ASF to any armor currently buyable in the module costs about 15 DCs, I believe.

you know it is like in the capitalist world, you play more hours and rp more you get more dcs and have access to more special items.

You are more 'educated' on the ability of the system to make your character stronger than most, because you dedicated many hours studying the subject, because some how it is important to you. Well, you will be able to build a character that is stronger than people that didn't dedicate such time.

If you are a social rper and isn't really giving a damn about being powerful, strong and kicking other characters behind, than you will get what you want.

The system is there for everyone, DC items are available to everyone, mythals work the same to everyone, farming monsters is the same for everyone. I believe it is balanced.

A DM that dedicate so many hours to DM side will get DC, when we players get DC by role playing and they don't. It is like their wage or something. If a DM worked sixty hours or whatever it takes to get 30 DCs, if he has a good background for an item and if the item is possible thru DC why would he not get it?

I spent 75 DCs in game already, rebuilds, a bow, a dc item I gave as a gift, my faerie wings, and there it goes, maybe even more than it. I chose most of the items to be role play items, rebuilds for the sake of rp, wings because my faerie for me should have wings and such. If I was a powerbuilder I could have a kicking ass item for each of my characters. It was my choice not to do so.

I still have 25 dcs to use and I am thinking on a flute that has no power, but it will be a neat RP item. Again, my choice.

I think it is a waste of time to complain that someone got a neat thing you don't have. If you want something similar, write your background story, role play for your dcs and ask for it as everyone else.

Honestly, I think that when everyone have the same access to things, the system is pretty much balanced.,

ASF is fairly cheap, yeah. Unfairly so? I don't know, depends on how you compare it to other stuff. It's cool, which forgives some mechanical inbalance in my eyes.

Gers wrote:

Adding 0% ASF to any armor currently buyable in the module costs about 15 DCs, I believe.

And that's standard equipment. The loose estimate I got on Eir's full plate was 25-30, I believe. For 0% ASF along, that is.

Ok, I'm sorta new here, but I looked at the DC itmes this way persoanly: Roleplay server, encourage people to roleplay, give them shiney collectable object like ticket at chuck-e-cheese. collect shiney object, turn in for cool reward... roleplaying is encouraged. Take DC and burn it for xp/gold, instand gratification method, RP is still encouraged.
Make DC items less cool, less encouragement to roleplay, server suffers as a role play server. Not totaly since alot of people just roleplay for the pure enjoyment of that anyway, but some because it's less encouraged and you have more need to go after the high end bosses for good gear so they become over camped and there are less high lvl people around to help out the low lvl new people.

Well I see it as this:

Epic Loot / DC Items do not cause the server to be imbalanced.

- In both cases, the Player must spend time earning the item.
- DC Items are better than Epic Loot. This is a RP server. So obviously RP will be favored over Boss-hunting.
- Amia is a place for anyone to play on, however they want to play it. It's one of it's major attractions. If I feel like killing crap, I can. If I feel like RPing, I can. Most of the time I like both, but sometimes you have a bad day and can't be bothered typing/hunting/whatever. Point is, this system caters for all kinds of players.

Saying "Oh, he has that item! The server is imbalanced!" doesn't work. If someone else has an item with a property on it, you're likely just as able to get it yourself.

Think of DC Items/Epic Loot as rewards for your efforts. Kill every boss a billion times over, and you're likely going to have some nice items. Spend the same time RPing non-stop, and you'll probably get some DC's to spend.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

There are zero 0%ASF tower shields.

Incorrect. There are two.

You just don't seem to know where they are.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Swallow the Stars wrote:

No epic loot drop will ever compare to a decent DC item.

Actually it does.
+5 Fortification Cloak
+30 Discipline gloves
+6 STR belt
Ioun stones

Wrong, Equal, Equal, Wrong. In that order.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

There is one 0%ASF large shield.

One in-store yes, but also one common loot drop item I've seen a bunch of times with a UMDable alignment restriction.

On discussions in general:

Starting with an outraged tone is [i]much/i] less likely to make people agree with you than a planned and well thought-out argument.

Yannickbl wrote:

Mimiron seems to dislike a lot of things on this server.
Not meant to be offensive, but why do you even play here then?

People have the right to discuss what they don't like within the bounds of the rules. Only way it can be changed.

WonWon wrote:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

There are zero 0%ASF tower shields.

Incorrect. There are two.

maglorine wrote:

One in-store yes, but also one common loot drop item I've seen a bunch of times with a UMDable alignment restriction.

Really?

I've been to every accessible NPC shop and I've never seen any, much less a common loot drop. Okay, maybe not new UD cos it's still so beta.

So who's telling the truth? Is it 0,1 or 2?

WonWon wrote:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Swallow the Stars wrote:

No epic loot drop will ever compare to a decent DC item.

Actually it does.
+5 Fortification Cloak
+30 Discipline gloves
+6 STR belt
Ioun stones

Wrong, Equal, Equal, Wrong. In that order.

I'm glad you agree that epic loot can compare to a decent DC item.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

WonWon wrote:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

There are zero 0%ASF tower shields.

Incorrect. There are two.

maglorine wrote:

One in-store yes, but also one common loot drop item I've seen a bunch of times with a UMDable alignment restriction.

Really?

I've been to every accessible NPC shop and I've never seen any, much less a common loot drop. Okay, maybe not new UD cos it's still so beta.

So who's telling the truth? Is it 0,1 or 2?

I was talking Large not Tower btw.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

WonWon wrote:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

There are zero 0%ASF tower shields.

Incorrect. There are two.

maglorine wrote:

One in-store yes, but also one common loot drop item I've seen a bunch of times with a UMDable alignment restriction.

Really?

I've been to every accessible NPC shop and I've never seen any, much less a common loot drop. Okay, maybe not new UD cos it's still so beta.

So who's telling the truth? Is it 0,1 or 2?

Both.

Me = There are two.
Him = One in stores, one in loot. 1+1=2.

There's better than a +5 Fort Cloak, there's equivalent (slightly better, actually) Than +30 Skill Gloves and the +6 Belt of STR, and there's definately better than Ioun Stones if you include Scripty's.

So, really, it doesn't compare if you consider the fact that DC Items are actually worked to your character's exact build and setup, typically. A +30 Discipline Glove might be good for a Fighter, but with DCs he might make something that (while not more powerful) - not only compares, but trounces it.

DC > Epic. By far.

Wait, there's a tower shield with 0 SF in the module that's vendorable or obtained by a drop? Mmm...

*sigh* Yet another unbalance/nerf/whatever thread. This stuff gets really old when you have multiple multiple multiple threads about nerfing this that or the other and how this that and that other thing is unbalanced. It really gets old. That said... *walks away from the topic*

Okay I must chime in my 2 cents here. I've been on this server since 07 and I can count the number of dc's I've gotten (5). A lot of getting dc items really has a lot to do with the times you play. Besides that if my rp isn't worthy of a few dc's in all of these years I may as well quit... I do know that most of the things out there can be bought somewhere. I plan on purchasing a full plate asf myself.

ainjyll wrote:

*sigh* Yet another unbalance/nerf/whatever thread. This stuff gets really old when you have multiple multiple multiple threads about nerfing this that or the other and how this that and that other thing is unbalanced. It really gets old. That said... *walks away from the topic*

*Nods Solemnly*

I swear I am trying to accompany these discussions, but they make my head spin.

Especially when numbers and calculations come into play. o.O

Heh, you should see some of the spreadsheets I make. I think this stuff is fun.

You need spreadsheets. :shock:

*Walks away from the topic*

With the right Mythals you can work a Epic item to be comparable to a DC item in terms of power, the only advantage a DC item has it can be custom made to fit a character build.

You could also find a Epic item and then use DCs to improve said epic item, sometimes for less then it would cost to make one from scratch.

MoshingChris wrote:

You need spreadsheets. :shock:

*Walks away from the topic*

Spreadsheets are to thank for the shifter changes. you owe spreadsheets your firstborn.

WonWon wrote:

Me = There are two.
Him = One in stores, one in loot. 1+1=2.

Scratch out Him since that's about large shields.
But you maintain that there are 2 0%ASF tower shields that can be bought in shops. Anyone else care to concur?

I hope we're talking shops that PCs can access, not some faction or DM portal area shop.

There's one in shops. There's another that I'm not going to tell you how to acquire.

Of course, I could always say "Find Out IC For Once", but no one ever listens to that.

I'm offended that you even imply "DM portal are ashop" as an option. It doesn't exist.

-ASF is silly if you ask me, and never should have been introduced to NWN. Just my opinion.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

-ASF is silly if you ask me, and never should have been introduced to NWN. Just my opinion.

No more silly than mithral is in D&D. >_>

What's silly is that the game forces mages to wear bath robes. Morrowind laughs at your ASF nonsense.

I'm happy to see battlemages wearing armor and priests fight in cloth, just for the sake of variety. Whether or not it's balanced.

I'm still waiting for the nude sorceress veiled in nothing but magic.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

I'm still waiting for the nude sorceress veiled in nothing but magic.

Shadowshield + Protection from Spells + Premonition = that

IronAngel wrote:

What's silly is that the game forces mages to wear bath robes. Morrowind laughs at your ASF nonsense.

I'm happy to see battlemages wearing armor and priests fight in cloth, just for the sake of variety. Whether or not it's balanced.

To be fair, magic did less of an effect in morrowind and oblivion i heavy armor, and in morrowind made your spells fail more oftne due to higher fatigue loss. Mages still wore cloth to maintain full spell effect.

Battlemage, Cleric, Arcane Warrior. Bah. All pandering to the "Whiny mage complaining about being squishy" group.

You don't need armor to be a non squishy mage. 28 con is 16 base and easy buffs away.

True, but it was perfectly viable to wear armor as a spellcaster. The idea is the same: you have to give up something (item power and DCs, or feats) to get to wear armor, but it's an option. Especilly since it's not that big an AC concern: shields excepted, there isn't necessarily a big difference between wearing plate or not if you have the Dex.

No mage but SD mages take the dex though, which is the general point.

If you have to give something up in enchange for bettering your stereotypical weakness then sure, that's fine. But -ASF is kinda cruddy in the fact that you don't lose something to gain something, you gain something for free.

Wah?

There's a billion ways in NWN and DnD to get that "Something" for free, really.

Well that doesn't mean I have to like it dammit, bloody DnD and it's silly gameplay mechanics.

*Grumbles*

I know of one -ASF Tower Shield, that's purchaseable. But it's not 0% ASF, for some reason.

-ASF in DC requests is iffy, since you can request the -ASF to be added onto your current armor/shield.

Allowing for stuff like;

SR 32
+2 Con
Bonu Spell Slot
-ASF

Quite high powered for 15 DCs.

And when people ask me if they should take the Auto Still feats when making their builds, I usually respond with?

"Screw that. Just request -ASF on your shield/armor."

That, if anything, tells me that it's a lil too cheap looking at what it gives.

TormakSaber wrote:

I'm offended that you even imply "DM portal are ashop" as an option. It doesn't exist.

Just because you're an impartial person doesn't mean the system is.
The system isn't transparent. There's alot of things the player base is kept in the dark.

Mr Mago wrote:

I know of one -ASF Tower Shield, that's purchasable. But it's not 0% ASF, for some reason.

Yeah, we all know where to find that. That's not the one wonwon is talking about apparently.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

I'm offended that you even imply "DM portal are ashop" as an option. It doesn't exist.

Just because you're an impartial person doesn't mean the system is.
The system isn't transparent. There's alot of things the player base is kept in the dark.

The DM's also have to uphold a strict set of rules on themselves and monitor eachother. Just because they might be allowed to see a shop they've not seen before mean they have to be /more/ careful they don't metagame finding it with their PC's or knowing where things are.

That's a horrible accusation to make.

The DM's work with us and work very hard for us.

And they don't take bonus's for it. They even shared once their DC earning system and /that/ is very demanding in balance as well to be fair with players and DM's.

I'm sure a DM would be exiled if the started giving themselves bonus items or tried to maintain a little "dm stash" as you so think there is.

And heck, if they do, it's probally just buckets of grease to throw on people followed by /dm hellball.

They player base is not "held in the dark". We can find everything ICly the DM's can unless it's a DM tool or event available zone.

The DMs don't favour themselves.

There are however many features in the module, which are completely unknown to the majority of players.

But that's also part of any successful PW.

Some things have to be secret, hidden, whatever. And found it ICly. It's standard in any NWN PW to create immersion and flair.

DC Gear and Balancing.

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