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Nex_addo wrote:

Except the downfall its based on AB vs AC. Where as spells your assured at least one shot

Mathmatically

4 attacks per round at say 50,45,40,35 with a crit range of 10-20
Vs say an AC of 60

You have a 50% chance to hit on the first hit. ANd a 50% chance it will be a crit. So thats a 25% chance you'll crit in a round. Second attack theirs a 25% chance your'll hit with a 50% chance you'll crit so you have a 12.5% chance you'll get a crit off. then you get the two 5% chances.

25%
12.5%
2.5%
2.5%

So your chance to get a crit in one round is roughly 42.5% chance that one attack will hit

A wizard casts Wail. He has a 100% chance it will hit.

And thats not taking into account 60+ AC builds. Epic Dodge, Palamasters. Improve invis.

Dev Crit is not overpowered

Ummm, the first three have a crit chance of 25% (0.5^2), 6.25% (0.25^2) and 0.25% (0.05^2) respectively, the rest can't crit (unless two natural twenties is a crit, not sure if it is). That brings the chance of a crit down to about 30% (whether the two twenties count or not, it's a difference of 0.14%).

Vaylek wrote:

Epic dodge... well that blocks the first attack of the round, sure, but its the rogue's defensive thing, its a way of making up for not having amazing AC like everyone else gets.

You have high AC from being a dexer + they lose an attack and five points of AB (if they miss on their first attack, they lose two attacks and ten points of AB) effectively.

Yurell wrote:

Vaylek wrote:

Epic dodge... well that blocks the first attack of the round, sure, but its the rogue's defensive thing, its a way of making up for not having amazing AC like everyone else gets.

You have high AC from being a dexer + they lose an attack and five points of AB (if they miss on their first attack, they lose two attacks and ten points of AB) effectively.

Well, in my experience, non-monk dexers weigh in between 45 and 50 AC, which isnt much compared to powerbuilt/buffed clerics, mages, druids, monks, WM's (everyone else) who can climb to the lofty heights of 70+.

Huh?

Dex-builds are at an advantage to others, when it comes to AC. Other mundane melee builds typically have that 45-50 AC. Monks, Cleric/Monks, Clerics and Paladins with Divine Shield, and Bards, are the typical AC people - half of which are Dex-based. And how on earth do druids get more AC than rogue/SDs? :shock:

26 base Dex means you're getting +14 AC, whereas Full-Platers can get +9 at most. As a Dexer, you're inevitably at least +5 AC above that of the otherwise similar guy.

Dexer AC = 52 - 57, assuming +4 Overall, and dependant on shield or bow.

Cleric and Bard AC go much higher than that - usually you can hit 60 easily with a cleric, and 64 with a bard.

Some specialty mage builds can get a -hell- of alot of AC, too.

STR Fighters have the lowest, excluding builds that don't need AC at all (DwD's, CON Mages, Smart Mages)

You can hardly make a fair comparison if you assume the Dexer has +4 gear. And my Monk/Cleric and Dex-based Bard don't hit the AC you suggest. It can be done, no doubt, but it's not the norm.

Cleric =

10 Base, +5 Armor, +8 Full Plate, +1 Dex, +5 Shield of Faith, +6 Tumble (for your cleric/monk), +3 Tower Shield, +5 Shield, +5 Natural Armor, +5 Dodge Boots, +2 Armor Skin.

=55. However of note - no slots needed for +5 Armor, +5 Shield, or +5 Deflection (Or +5 Natural if you take Plant Domain).
+4 if Travel Domain (Haste)
50% Conceal if Trickery Domain (Improved Invisibility)
+10 if CHA/WIS Split (Divine Shield)
All three and you have 69 AC with 50% Concealment.

Dexer AC prettymuch maxes at this;

10 Base, +5 Armor, +15 Dexterity, +5 Deflection, +6 Tumble, +2 Armor Skin, +3 Tower Shield, +5 Shield, +5 Natural Armor, +5 Dodge Boots.

= 61

That's the absolute peak for a Dexer's AC, assuming NonBard/Cleric. +5 Gear accounted for, btw. Outside of pocket maging, that Dexer's AC is getting no higher.

Bards, however, are a close second to the Cleric;

10 Base, +5 Armor, +4 Chain Shirt, +4 Dexterity, +6 Tumble, +2 Armor Skin, +3 Tower Shield, +5 Shield, +5 Natural Armor, +5 Dodge Bonus, +4 Haste, +1 Mage Armor, +7 Bard Song, +2 Curse Song (effective via -2 AB).

= 64

You can't include Divine Shield into the Clerics AC withou incuding it on the others.

You can make a dex'er with divine shield, and get just as high AC as the cleric.

Anyone can use haste potions / items.

A bard has an even easier time geting divine shield than the Cleric.

So let's not be that biased in our AC calculations, please.

Non-dex, non-wis, non-PM, non-RDD builds has an absolute max AC of 70.

Only dex-based / wis-based / PM / RDD builds can go above 70 AC.

The dex + cha based bard has an easy time going above 70 AC.

Anyhow, on the topic;

Sure, mages have limited casings of their death magic. But they also have a shitload of other spells which ordinary meleers don't.

Dev is countered by: Saves and/or AC.

Death magic is countered by: Saves, SR, Death Ward, Shadowshield.

So... you want to change Dev Crit into an OnHit non-death property?

AWESOME!

Now I can drop all of those +3 fort save on my gear, and with my evasion dump I can become immune to AoE's instead.

All I need is some shadowshield scrolls or a death ward wand for the rare occassion where I end up in PvP.

And seeing how I don't have any caster levels, my buffs will count as 30 Caster Level against the dispell check.

If you're going to do -anything-, the remove scimitars/rapiers/kukri's from being taken with Dev Crit.

Everything else is excessive, and will play into so many more balance aspects than you guys can't even imagine.

You can't account for standard buffs like Haste on Clerics and Bards, but not on Dexers.

And I didn't claim casters didn't get better AC. Dexers tend to get better AC than Str-based builds, because you don't need a lot of Dex to surpass Full-Plate AC. That applies to Clerics and Bards, too. You can't say they have low AC, by any means.

IronAngel wrote:

You can't account for standard buffs like Haste on Clerics and Bards, but not on Dexers.

And I didn't claim casters didn't get better AC. Dexers tend to get better AC than Str-based builds, because you don't need a lot of Dex to surpass Full-Plate AC. That applies to Clerics and Bards, too. You can't say they have low AC, by any means.

I only included things you could get yourself (Hence the notation of only having +4 AC from Haste on a Travel Cleric). I could easily include Mage Armor on the Cleric as well.

Additionally, I didn't include crazy builds that are often gimmicks, or the sort we expect to see from PvP Whores. I included your basics. A DEX base getting alot of benefit from Divine Shield likely isn't going to be an Epic Dodger as well, or going to have a high AB due to lack of Dex, etcetera, when not made up for by Cleric buffs. Such as Bard/Clerics (or Cleric/Bards, inversely, for different primary class), Rogue/Cleric, etc.

KISS, as they say

Well, I was responding to this:

Vaylek wrote:

Well, in my experience, non-monk dexers weigh in between 45 and 50 AC, which isnt much compared to powerbuilt/buffed clerics, mages, druids, monks, WM's (everyone else) who can climb to the lofty heights of 70+.

Of the typical AC sources, Dexterity is certainly important. I specifically mentioned Bards and Clerics among those who can get past it easily, but definetely not standard WMs or Druids. I don't necessarily disagree with you (though when we're speaking of what's out there, on average, not nearly everyone has maxed AC).

Ferrous Celestial wrote:

Monks, Cleric/Monks, Clerics and Paladins with Divine Shield, and Bards, are the typical AC people - half of which are Dex-based.

That's the part I was replying to. The notion of Monks, Cleric Monks, Clerics, Paladins w/ Div Shield, and Bards as being 'Typical AC People' just made me wince. They're pretty much on the high end, if not at the peak - even when not DEX based.

Um, I meant that they're typically the people with the (read: best) AC around, not that their AC is typical/the average.

Generally dexers get less ab, less damage. Its a fair trade off between offence and defence.

Take str wm, and dex wm, the str wm will have a hard time hitting the dex wm, all the while the dex wm hits away at the str bit by bit. Then bang str wm gets a dev in, or maybe a kd and boom dexer is gone. Course luck of the dice, and different tactics may mean the str wm never gets those dev or ikds.

Mago: Horrild wilting, Ice storm. Anyway a lot of PvP mages aren't going to be dropping things on People's head DD wise, its either Ice storm, IGMS, G.Ruin, Hellball(?) Bigby or Timestop, Maybe Horrid Wilting/Wail if you got a sneak running around.

Craig: If someone is dex based and not using weapon finesse or dex based weapons they're doing something 'seriously wrong' from a build centric perspective. Dexers having 'crappy' AB is just not true. My rogue has higher AB than my dev crit monk, and thats while he's dual wielding. At the moment he has on par AB with my Fit/WM/Rog But she's not level capped yet.

Most dexers (SD's) I see have around <50 Ac because they dual weild, they don't use tower shields, partially because they are super heavy and we need to watch our weight allowance when weve sunk everything into dex, alos because of the armor check penalty.

Just gonna name a few off the top of my head here Jennifer galia, Barra Keeshe, Vaylek (mine), Naethar, Luke, Sillindra/Hijinxah... many others... Not saying thats an optimal choice, just saying thats what a lot of dexers I actually see IG choose to do with their build/fighting style.

And its fine to theorycraft and say dexers have equal accessability to things like haste, shadowshield, +5 natural armour (Where do you buy these potions), but ina ctual fact most dexers dont chuga potion of speed every 10 real life seconds. Easier for clerics with their CL's and GMV, which means the AC rolls on all day.

And WM's can get crazy AC if they use expertise. Tarick, who placed in the Amia awards for best build, was a pretty unremarkable WM who just kept expertise pumped high and was -really hard- to hit. He also drank a lot of true strike potions, but there you go. 70 ac from memory.

Also, I agree with Craig's post about defense vs offense. Seriously, whats threatening about a feat that makes your character harder to kill compared to something that instantly kills another character. We all know which one causes more greif in pvp.

Fort is easy enough to get to 40+.

I've rolled a nat 1 on Dev Crit once in PvP for the last 4 years.

Mr Mago wrote:

Fort is easy enough to get to 40+.

I've rolled a nat 1 on Dev Crit once in PvP for the last 4 years.

Everybody who wants to nerf Dev Crit should look at this. Only 1 natural 1 in 4 years from someone who probably gets in more PvP fights in a month than most do in a year. It's really not as common as people are making it out to be.

50+ AC isn't all that difficult to get to, either. My Bard/SD/As walks around with the upper 40's before any buffing is done and can reach low to mid-50's with buffs and she's not even maxed out yet and has only decent gear.

The rogue/bard/AA I recently started will walk around with an unbuffed AC of 51 (if that spreadsheet was right) when she's done and will be able to reach around 60 when buffed. It's not all that hard to get to if you have just a smidge of insight into the build.

ainjyll wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Fort is easy enough to get to 40+.

I've rolled a nat 1 on Dev Crit once in PvP for the last 4 years.

Everybody who wants to nerf Dev Crit should look at this. Only 1 natural 1 in 4 years from someone who probably gets in more PvP fights in a month than most do in a year.

Of course thats how probability and statistics work. A sample size of 1 gives a fantastic Confidence Interval :roll:

. I looked...and i'm still supporting that it be changed.

95% of the time (duh) Dev Crit only kills those who've given Fortitude the finger.

Your average meleer with 43-45 AB won't crit you very often you have 60+ AC.

And if you haven't put 40 fort on your gear with the current mythal in place, you'll have yourself to blame.

I'm surprised to see that Dev Crit is given this much attention, when there are quite obvious, far more broken/powerful features in the game as it is.

HiPS being the first that comes to mind.

I'm also surprised that the DMs are discussing these changes outside of the balance team, while other features such as heal, raise dead, time stop, bigby, GS etc are currently being discussed by the DM team.

Now, I'm not saying that the DM team isn't capable of doing appropriate DM changes... what I am saying, that with the current rate of changes being pushed through by the DM team, it will be very hard to predict the actual consequences of the changes, possibly resulting in a completely converted balance aspect of current Amia.

Some features are very broken. Time Stop, HiPS, GS (this one is iffy) are the big three.

Dev Crit is not one of them.

And also, changing a feature into something that turns out to be useless, is not a balance fix.

It's a balance upset.

When I ask myself;

"If we change Dev Crit into a widget that gives non-death properties on hit, would I ever bother taking the feat with the current requirements to take it?"

The answer is quite simply: No.

"Would I rebuild any meleer I have into a WM to make up for the nerf?"

The answer is: Yes.

I've already mentioned this stuff previously in this thread, and I've told Tormak about it on MSN as well.

Str is already least useful ability of the six.

Get rid of Dev Crit, and you'll see a server changed into Dex-based, Cha-based, Wis-based and Int-based characters.

Strength won't be worth it.

That, combined with my previous posts in this thread, are my 5 cents.

If the DM team goes ahead and castrates Dev Crit, you better not take offense when I 6 months from now state: "I told you so."

I have to agree with Mago, here. Dev Crit isn't the most 'broken' item - it just gets more attention because it's such a dramatic effect. I use the term 'broken' loosely, because honestly, I like NWN how Amia has it.

I think this thread needs to take a minute, stop, breath, relax, and look at what we are actually arguing about.

This topic is not about powerbuilders.

This topic is about balance.

Now, since many of us are having difficulties with keeping a consistent use of the word balance, let us give it a definition:

Balance: noun; In the case of Neverwinter Nights, specifically on the roleplay-focused server of Amia, balance is the measure of an ability, skill, feat, or trait's counterability. That is, a properly balanced ability, skill, feat, or trait has an appropriate and definitive counter which requires an investment that rivals that of the ability it counters.

Now, let's work from here.

I would argue that if you are saying that Dev Crit is broken, then so is Hide in Plain Sight; so is Time Stop; so is Isaac's Greater Magic Missle Storm; so is... well, everything. Why? All of these things have counters. Devastating Critical has a fortitude save. On Amia it is easier for a person to have a 40 fortitude save than it is for them to have 60 Discipline - enough to beat only most Knockdown and Improved Knockdown attempts. Let's make a comparison.

- Knockdown - Armor Class, Discipline
- Improved Knockdown - " "
- Disarm - " "
- Improved Disarm - " "
- Hide in Plain Sight - Spot, Listen, True Seeing [In Polymorph]
- Terrifying Rage - Will Save, Mind Immunity [Potions Applicable]
- Devastating Critical - Armor Class, Fortitude Save
- Death Spells - Spell Resistance, Fortitude Save, Death Spell Immunity
- Greater Sanctuary - Potion of Reality

Now, the list goes on. When taken into consideration that each of these 'powers' have more than one counter - each of which require a commitment of feats and skills comparable to that which the feat itself require - then yous begin to see that there is balance. Now, there are/i] some items with no counter in NWN. These items are never complained about because they are not as visually attractive or attention grabbing. There is absolutely nothing save for divine providence (or an insanely fast clicker-finger) that can save a person froma Timestop / Maximized Isaac's Greater Missle Storm, much less a spam of the two.

EDIT: I would like to point out that 'balance' is not defined as 'the ability to every character to counteract every other character's abilities'. No character is, nor should they be, able to beat every single other character - or even [i]match them. That isn't balance. That is boring.

Maximised Isaac's deals 240 damage >.> even 2 isn't _that_ much

Ugly as it may be;

Nerf Dev Crit = Isaac's > Non-WM str-based meleer.

Yannickbl wrote:

Maximised Isaac's deals 240 damage >.> even 2 isn't _that_ much

Correction: On Amia the maximum number of missles isn't capped. Try 360 irresistable damage on for size.

This argument is very circular. Dev gets altered, critters saves can come down, other fort based stuff becomes workable again. Interesting...your only concern is from a PVP perspective. My barb is still doing over 200 so he wont bat an eyelid if Dev is altered. 200+ is nothing to sniff at either so you can give up strength builds if you like but i certainly wont be. Strength will still be worth it.

Time stop is the most boring spell there is and if it got changed I would be very happy. Currently its only use is largely PVP. GS i've always wanted changed. HIPS needs a cool down timer of 10 seconds or something but whether thats possible I dont know.

HiPS with a cool-down of ten seconds? Cool-down sounds like a good idea, but not that long. Using a Supernatural Ability is a standard action. I think?

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)
A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Supernatural Abilities (Su)
Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks.

You all keep going on and on. All I can recall was that someone (dagwin) gave a solution that doesn't nerf dev at all. It just fixes the broken crit roll on certain weapons. A player critting 4 times out of 6 attacks and a roll vs death each time is ridiculous, besides said player is only doing 13dmg per hit perposterous. That would mean no nerfing dev. Problem solved.

Mr Mago wrote:

Fort is easy enough to get to 40+.

I've rolled a nat 1 on Dev Crit once in PvP for the last 4 years.

What's Darth's AC been over the past 4 Years?

Swallow the Stars wrote:

Yannickbl wrote:

Maximised Isaac's deals 240 damage >.> even 2 isn't _that_ much

Correction: On Amia the maximum number of missles isn't capped. Try 360 irresistable damage on for size.

Correction. No more than half of those missiles can hit a single target on Amia.

Mr Mago wrote:

Fort is easy enough to get to 40+.

I've rolled a nat 1 on Dev Crit once in PvP for the last 4 years.

An anecdote right into a statistical argument? After a successful crit, your chances of dying are at least 1/20 from dev. Your chances of surviving a hundred attempts are down in the 0.6% mark, then ... personal experience of luck doesn't equal what the chances actually are. You've likely also had high AC throughout this period too ... how many times, exactly, were you critted (successfully) by a dever? Since that's a rather important piece of information to know given the statistic you provided.

Swallow the Stars wrote:

Yannickbl wrote:

Maximised Isaac's deals 240 damage >.> even 2 isn't _that_ much

Correction: On Amia the maximum number of missles isn't capped. Try 360 irresistable damage on for size.

No more than half the missiles can hit a single target (which it looks like hasn't been added to the spell sidebar).

Yurell wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Fort is easy enough to get to 40+.

I've rolled a nat 1 on Dev Crit once in PvP for the last 4 years.

An anecdote right into a statistical argument? After a successful crit, your chances of dying are at least 1/20 from dev. Your chances of surviving a hundred attempts are down in the 0.6% mark, then ... personal experience of luck doesn't equal what the chances actually are. You've likely also had high AC throughout this period too ... how many times, exactly, were you critted (successfully) by a dever? Since that's a rather important piece of information to know given the statistic you provided.

Last time I checked personal experience from a qualified expert counts in a debate. Would anyone here question Mago's build expertise or PvP experience? I think he (along with Ruce) qualifies as one of our resident build and PvP experts, making his experience very valid and useful within the context of this discussion.

I also took the liberty of highlighting a key part of Yurell's post. To get that successful crit, you first have to hit your target and then you have to pass the threat roll. Thus raising your 0.6% chance drastically.

I also think, Yurell proved a very valid point to the "Don't nerf Dev Crit" side of the discussion in his post, albeit probably unintentionally.

Yurell wrote:

You've likely also had high AC throughout this period too ... how many times, exactly, were you critted (successfully) by a dever?

That question is very interesting when it's actually picked apart. The question implies that by having high AC and a good Fort save, Dev Crit becomes virtually null and void. Thereby negating the need to nerf it.

Dev Crit is pretty easily counterable. High AC (which you should shoot for regardless) and a good Fort save (which when you look at the gear in Amia is pretty easily done) and you, like Mago, can live a pretty Dev Crit free life. While Riddle may not have said it with the savvy that this discussionn requires, he does speak the truth. If you look at the people posting against Dev Crit and then go look at the build thread and look at those who are being asked for advice, you won't see too many names that match up. This suggests to me that the people who are calling for a nerf of Dev Crit are being beaten by superior builds and would fall to any of a number of builds, not just Dev Crit. But, due to the prevalency of Dev Crit on Amia, it's an easy wagon to jump on.

Yurell wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Fort is easy enough to get to 40+.

I've rolled a nat 1 on Dev Crit once in PvP for the last 4 years.

An anecdote right into a statistical argument? After a successful crit, your chances of dying are at least 1/20 from dev. Your chances of surviving a hundred attempts are down in the 0.6% mark, then ... personal experience of luck doesn't equal what the chances actually are. You've likely also had high AC throughout this period too ... how many times, exactly, were you critted (successfully) by a dever? Since that's a rather important piece of information to know given the statistic you provided.

Swallow the Stars wrote:

Yannickbl wrote:

Maximised Isaac's deals 240 damage >.> even 2 isn't _that_ much

Correction: On Amia the maximum number of missles isn't capped. Try 360 irresistable damage on for size.

No more than half the missiles can hit a single target (which it looks like hasn't been added to the spell sidebar).

No more than 10. Which was added, at one point.

I'm tried of MAgo insinuating that the DM team is dumb. Please stop.

The max number of missiles that can hit one target is 10 on Amia, so maxed that is 120 damage on one target, 240 is hasted in one round. It's devastating in group PvP, dropping 720 damage in one round if there are 3 targets is silly.

Lowering the crit range for high crit weapons will do little to nothing, if you have low AC guess what, that weapon master, with 52 AB, 13-20 crit(oh no), whatever, is still going to destroy you if he lands 3 crits in one round unless you have 360+ HP, Dev crit aside, rolling 1's at that point will be the least of your worries.

The point is, if you have low AC, you'll get punished no matter the weapons range, even more so if they can land crits on you in the 10-15 roll range on their 3rd/4th attack, if he's hitting you like that your already dead. You'll wish you invited your mage buddy to the fight, unless the weaponmaster is spitting in his face at the time.

AC is more important in fighting dev crit then Fort, having both makes you pretty much immune, having one or the other helps quite a bit as well.

Guess what though, Low AC can also have a rogue landing 100+ hits to your spine, an arcane archer filling your head with arrows, (insert any other AB class here dealing alot of pain to you). As much as I hate to see it one hit KO a Boss, it doesn't bother me when someone catches one in the face for wishing death on themselves when facing a fully buffed heavy armored battle cleric, in their best loincloth.

Amia has done well to balance the abilities that are standard with the game. Some people are really strong, but luckily, no one on Amia is invincible. Being prepared for a fight helps alot too, and those that find themselves well prepared often win.

If you can't win a fight yourself, put the Superman attitude aside, and seek out more allies to help you, or find another way to solve your conflicts with PCs then trying to chop each others head off in every encounter. Not all characters will be good at everything, and chances are, taking dev crit out won't change anyones chances at winning in a fight.

Honestly, if DC goes, it won't fix much, people will still have good builds, people will find a way to make sure that they have the best chance of coming out on top, it's human nature. Or, we set everyone to level 1 fighters, even then, feat selection, gear, stats, and items your character has will still make you come out on top.

As for PvM, I've never seen dev crit offer much in the way of PvM help, aside from the off chance something rolls a 1 and dies. And I dare say that you could take a group of 3 standard adventurers to most places on Amia, if they all prepare correctly, infact it might be something to test out sometime.

Your character isn't the Protagonist of Amia, and you certainly won't win every fight, so eat some dust once in a while.

//Rant Off

It's basically what I said the entire time. Dev Crit is fine as a "Fort save or Die"hit, its the application of the feat being used by high crit range weapons, WM's and such. Add duel weild to this with certain weapons and it become even more abused. Some builds are specfically built around dev critting as much as possible with the highest DC possible. So you can compare these builds to a mage casting wail for every attack on a round, forcing high DC vs death strikes on almost every hit.

The clear answer is to simply lower the crit range on those weapons, which is impossible, so you move down the list until you come to an answer that has the least effect but resolves the balance with how it's applied.

The feat doesn't need nerfing. How the feat is being used by user's in certain applications is what needs looking at.

Its been said again and again. Dev Crit doesnt need balancing or balacing anything that might effect dev crit. There are far worse things out there

In your opinion. Not the opinion of the general amian populace overwise it wouldn't come up all the time. If it's coming up all the time, then it probably need's looking at.

I'm pretty much agreeing that I'd rather see Dev as a whole left as is at this point. When you look at it, there's a reason everything is the way it is now on monsters and mythaling alike.

If we have to do anything, let's be precise. The problem is critting every other strike with the 3 weapons I've gotten tired of typing over and over again. Make Ki Critical innefective for those 3, or at least make it do something else than add to crit range with them.

Range will still be 12-20, for them. Still get WM bonus to attacks just fine. But it cuts back on some of the spamming, and still gives reason choose them, albeit not by such a great margin. 1d6 damage with 12-20 crits max(imp crit + keen +(ki crit not working)), or 1d8/1d10 damage with 13-20 crits max(imp crit + keen + (ki crit working)). A more even choice, says I.

Quote:

In your opinion. Not the opinion of the general amian populace overwise it wouldn't come up all the time. If it's coming up all the time, then it probably need's looking at.

Its one of those things. If you dont have dev crit of course you dont want anyone else to have it.
Its like saying. I dont think mages should have spells. Why? Cause their powerful and I dont have them.

Dev Crit clearly is not in the box of things that need to be nerfed. If it is nerfed say goodbye to strength based characters.

Usually, when something comes up often enough, there's some balance issue with it.

That said, I think Dev Crit is far from the worst offenders. For many characters, it's just plain not good. Whatever fix there may be, it should be something that doesn't make it much weaker for those high-damage chaps who don't have massive crit ranges.

Dev Crit with its current function doesn't need changing.

Tormak's suggestion of removing specific weapons from being able to be taken with Dev Crit (scimitars, rapiers, kukris) and Dwagin's idea of removing said weapons from being keen-able are two ideas that could present a certain degree of fix to the "issues" presented in this thread.

exactly... just make them un keen-able.. problem solved. and its simple. if that is possible i mean.

What are we going to do with the plenty of DC-bought scimitars and rapiers around? I've spent more DCs than you want to know on gear for my bard/fighter, among them a keen rapier. I'm not about to change his build and weapon. If you just mean the spell not working, it doesn't really do anything.

I'd rather not do anything. Could simply make Dev. Crit give more damage for Rapiers, Scimitars and Kukris, though, and keep it as it is for other weapons.

oshizo2 wrote:

exactly... just make them un keen-able.. problem solved. and its simple. if that is possible i mean.

And grandfather what we have? I think that would be pretty obscene given the amount that is already out there (I think a similar reason was given for not removing permanent FoM from items).

Perhaps you should re-read Dwagin's post.

Yeah. I'm not going to give up Keen on the rapier I paid 35 DCs for.

Nerfing the weapons themselves seems a heavy-handed way of dealing with an ability that uses them. Nerf the ability directly, or the ability as it works on those weapons.

IronAngel wrote:

Yeah. I'm not going to give up Keen on the rapier I paid 35 DCs for.

So... you guys want to nerf Dev Crit.

But you don't want to make personal sacrifices for it.

Awesome.

Yurell wrote:

Nerfing the weapons themselves seems a heavy-handed way of dealing with an ability that uses them. Nerf the ability directly, or the ability as it works on those weapons.

Dev Crit itself doesn't need nerfing.

There have been a gazillion reasons and arguments supporting this already.

Last edited by IronAngel on Sat, Dec 12 2009, 16:28 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Mr Mago wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

Yeah. I'm not going to give up Keen on the rapier I paid 35 DCs for.

So... you guys want to nerf Dev Crit.

But you don't want to make personal sacrifices for it.

Awesome.

I don't want to nerf anything.

And I'm not going to make anyone else give up Keen on their DC weapons that, for all we know, may have been requested for the soul purpose of getting Keen on an otherwise pretty standard weapon.

Kudos for that.

IronAngel wrote:

And I'm not going to make anyone else give up Keen on their DC weapons that, for all we know, may have been requested for the soul purpose of getting Keen on an otherwise pretty standard weapon.

That is one of the major reasons I object to nerfing the weapons as opposed to the ability.

Re: Paladin and Blackguard Saves

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