AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

How do you guys do this anyhow? I heard there's people running around with spellfailure free tower and fullplate. How the hell is that even balanced? That's THREE FREE FEATS for TWO POWERS?!!?! isn't it?!

Why -are- you able to craft items with dreamcoins anyways? Does fireside chat somehow reward you with legendary loot?

Halfplates, Large Shields, OKAY, but...........yeah.

You've heard? Or you KNOW? There's a difference. I'm pretty sure those people with Full-Plate and Towers with no spell failure have or will be shot.

In regards to crafting with Dream Coins? Well, you can't just say... "I have x amount of DCs and I want to make this special l33t cewl gearrrr!" You have to have RP'd it IN game, and have created a DAMN good story, AND get approval by the DMs who are assigned to balancing gear. It's there to give you more options, and allow the players to be creative.

DC items are Dream Coin items. Dream coins are rewarded after exceptional roleplay. Most of the items you describe have a pretty hefty DC cost (anywhere from 25 to 40 DCs). Most players get typically a DC a week if they're lucky....do the sums on how long it takes to get 25 - 40 DCs....

This is where they are getting those stats from... by the way...

Quote:

Login: Axelo_Stargleam
Character: Jud Kenlyl

Item Name: Eilistraeen Warplate
Base Item: Full Platemail
Cost 30 DCs

Stats:
+4 AC
0% Automatic Spell Failure
5/- vs Piercing/Bludgeoning
10/- vs Electrical

Item Name: Moonshard Shield
Base Item: Tower Shield
Cost 30 DCs

Stats:
+4 AC
0% Automatic Spell Failure
+1 will/reflex
Divine Aura 2/day
10/- vs Acid
5/- vs Cold/Sonic

It's Known.

Just because it's a DC item doesn't mean it should give an item that rewards you the capability to ignore 3 feats.

Favoritism? My apologies if this is offensive to you, or anyone else... But Jud'vardas is an exceptionally standout player who has contributed to the community in ways you may not be able to fathom.

Given the cost of the DCs, and the character itself - I can understand why it was approved.

Mimiron wrote:

Just because it's a DC item doesn't mean it should give an item that rewards you the capability to ignore 3 feats.

I'm not sure what feats 0% arcane failure actually ignores. All I know of is still spell so that you can bypass arcane failure.

Please expand your opinion?

There are items in the module that have low ASF (a TS with half the ASF or some such, for instance). I just will not tell (OOC) you exactly where.

Now, if you want 0 ASF... well, you need to work a little harder. This is when DCs come to play.

The dc system has been unbalanced and exploited since it was created. Yes, I can vouch for the existence of items mentioned (Including +5, 20 elemental resist, 0 asf full plate). I can also say that those are some of the LEAST rediculous examples. I can also point out that decisions on who gets what are often decided by the player. A simple request for a standard and underpowered item for a "powergamer" may take months. Where overpowered spell like ability/song/spell widgets for "rpers" will be approved quickly because it's "just" such-and-such.

Compare that shield to my Paladins DC shield

Quote:

Item Type: Towershield
Positive Powers:
+2 Cha
+4 AC
Bonus Paladin Spellslot: Level 2
+5 AC versus Undead and Reptilian
1x day Raise Dead
10 percent slashing immunity

Negative Powers:
-2 con
-20 taunt
-10 concentration

Cost: 21 DC's

He's paying effectively 15 more DC's to not have to switch shields and armor constantly. We both had to provide ample RP background as to how we got the items. This was then approved and discussed by the DM's.

Mine went through extremely quickly because I did my research, consulted previously approved items and read all the rules and guidelines before making the request.

justice_prevails wrote:

The dc system has been unbalanced and exploited since it was created. Yes, I can vouch for the existence of items mentioned (Including +5, 20 elemental resist, 0 asf full plate). I can also say that those are some of the LEAST rediculous examples. I can also point out that decisions on who gets what are often decided by the player. A simple request for a standard and underpowered item for a "powergamer" may take months. Where overpowered spell like ability/song/spell widgets for "rpers" will be approved quickly because it's "just" such-and-such.

I entirely disagree. The DM team, yes, may have some things out there that are a little off for their balancing desires in current standards. They have acknowledged countless changes in DC costs and DC limitations once they learn of something that doesn't work as intended (ie: on-hit effects or certain visuals).

I would also trust the DM team to actually (temporarily) remove or discuss altering any DC items that were abused outside of agreed limitations in those "Oh it's just such-such for an RP build" theory if they provided a [true problem.

BlackDahlya wrote:

There are items in the module that have low ASF (a TS with half the ASF or some such, for instance). I just will not tell (OOC) you exactly where.

Now, if you want 0 ASF... well, you need to work a little harder. This is when DCs come to play.

I know where they are. I know what they are. And I also know that I'm fine with them because it doesn't make these three feats obsolete at the same time.

Automatic Still Spell I, II, III

Actually, 4. Still Spell as well as a pre-req.

And fyi, this is not me trying to de-rail Jud. If anyone where to deserve these items it would be him. I'm just wondering... "How is that even balanced?" I'm not crying favoritism either.

Mimiron wrote:

BlackDahlya wrote:

There are items in the module that have low ASF (a TS with half the ASF or some such, for instance). I just will not tell (OOC) you exactly where.

Now, if you want 0 ASF... well, you need to work a little harder. This is when DCs come to play.

I know where they are. I know what they are. And I also know that I'm fine with them because it doesn't make these three feats obsolete at the same time.

Automatic Still Spell I, II, III

So these feats it makes obsolete only affects the PC using the gear?

I don't see a balancing flaw then. I see somebody who was able to request a DC item to do what it should. Provide a bonus to RP or gear for that PC for hard efforts in-game between good shows of role-play overall and commitment; along with any required pre-requisites of effort in-game to earn/create the items and it still all needs DM approval in the end.

It's not like it is making feats of other PC's obsolete. DC items are meant to be empowering or enriching.

Actually, it kind of is. Everyone would request that with the purpose of getting 3 epic feats which likely would be Autoquicken 3 which is a massive upward advantage to have at the expense of only 2 powers on your items.

Actually, TBQH, DC Items are quite well balanced when compared to eachother. The typical standard (there are outliers), is this;

DC Loot > Epic Loot > Found Loot > Purchased Loot.

That said, there are some items that come from times when different standards existed. Until recently, +5 Enhancement / Armor Bonus was considered 'taboo' on just about anything, hell, you simply -couldn't- get a +5 Longsword with Keen and +1d6 if you wanted to. Not so much the case now.

Also, all DC Items are Plotted. No Crafting. So their 'Mythal Slots' mean nothing. You can'd do everything via Mythal, and there are many things which are more powerful than Mythal.

EG; Ring of Regeneration (+4 Regen). That's 5 Properties on a 3 Property item. Ring of Power (+1 Regen, 15/- Fire, 15/- Elec, 15/- Cold, Freedom) is 7 properties.

Don't use the Mythal System to try do balance. The Mythal System's limits is purely to balance within itself based on what can be made with those, and the significant ease of creation.

As far as making feats obsolete; Ring of Improved Evasion makes Rogue/Monk/SD all far less shiny, because that's one of their feats which is damn useful. But you can get it. Spell Cast Items which give you the powers of a mage to some extent, likewise. Could easily go on, and on, and on.

Last edited by Mimiron_Old on Fri, Dec 11 2009, 4:18 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Okay yes, I understand WonWon. But the Ring of Power that you mentioned comes with predetermined stats. I'd rather trade some of those for something else, but I can't. That's the drawback.

The ring of improved evasion is indeed very nice example, but it isn't four feats.

You could easily change the elemental types (within reason - no physical types) with DCs.

The DC System in regards to items does, in some regard, exist to 'finish off' your character. Whether it be by bolstering their RP, enhancing an aspect of it or bringing it to the fore (Shifting Items, RP Items, etc, etc, etc) or by aiding in a certain combative context, given the heavily martial part of the world that FR Is set in.

It's also, a Reward for good RP. An Encouragement to RP. A Carrot. Honestly I despise the fact we need DCs to do this, but, c'est la vie.

Most DC item requests don't have any spots left for mythalling.

Most people don't get automatic still spell either. They just switch out their items with a cloth or ASF 0 Chainshirt (which there are plenty of in the module) until they get a plate, and unequip their shield.

Naturally, some properties are off limits, such as Bioware's True Sight, permanent haste, immunity to criticals, and OnHit: Vorpal

O, btw, there are plenty of store-bought items (if you know where to look) which have 0%ASF, as armors, tower shields, etcetera.

I would say I remain in character all the time. I don't usually ask a DM to watch me roleplay either. When someone around me does, I usually get rewarded. I've been around 4+ months and have earned something like 30 dreamcoins. I'm not complaining that I can't get it. I'm merely stating that items like this drastically ruin the balance of the game.

Last edited by BlackDahlya on Fri, Dec 11 2009, 4:25 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Mimiron...

It is not as if ~all~ the players of the server, or even ~most~ of the players on the server, have items like the ones you claim to be unbalanced.

DC items as powerful as those are rare. You do not find one like that in every corner.

BlackDahlya wrote:

Mimiron...

It is not as if ~all~ the players of the server, or even ~most~ of the players on the server, has items like the ones you claim to be unbalanced.

DC items as powerful as those are rare. You do not find one like that in every corner.

All it takes is for one person to have the item for it to be unbalanced. If my character ever got into a conflict with the clone of my character with the fullplate and the tower shield I have 0% chance of winning in a PVP duel. To me, that's pretty unfair. Just because someone's played a character longer and decently roleplayed shouldn't allow them capabilities BEYOND powerbuilding.

I give up.

It's not game-breaking any more than high range epic loot is gamebreaking. DC items pretty much fall in line with what's already in the module, or slightly above or below it.

I don't understand your example there. You can make a perfectly formidable character without DC and epic gear.

Okay... I'll try to say this non-arse-like as possible. But it's getting a little bit ridiculous at this point.

Amia's been here for years. It most likely will be here for years. If the people that have seen it through those years(aka the DMs) have set their rubric for balancing, trust what they allow. You know, seeing as they actually have the facts infront of them, not rumors.

Would you like me to get rid of all of my DC items, Mimiron?

Actually, it's the opposite. Anyone, assuming they put in the effort, can get these items, or the equivalent for different classes and the like.

It's Balanced. Amongst itself. DC Gear > Everything Else(with some minor exceptions).

And yes, we've been at this for quite a while. We know what we're doing, I like to think, at least in regards to keeping things fair and balanced.

Well, I understand that I'm obviously not going to convince anyone here otherwise, so I'll just leave the topic where it is.

Quote:

And yes, we've been at this for quite a while. We know what we're doing, I like to think, at least in regards to keeping things fair and balanced.

I agree, you've done a fairly good job.

Bobo_Underhill wrote:

permanent haste

For the record. Nothing on EARTH is as much fun as a lvl 40 monk with perma-haste.

I loves it.

Don't give in so easily, Mimiron. I want to know more specifics about your planned overhaul of the DC Item system because I may agree with you. And for you to answer my question.

Yossarin wrote:

Don't give in so easily, Mimiron. I want to know more specifics about your planned overhaul of the DC Item system because I may agree with you. And for you to answer my question.

To answer your question: It would depend. I don't think all DC items should be removed. I do, however, think that this case by case analysis should take a look beyond what the item does. Beyond that, you individually should not be punished for something you've already earned. I feel that it's kind of late to be taking stuff away from people. Sadly I only learned of this recently, I apologize for the outburst, but I honestly do find it apalling to some degree that noone can see my point.

In this particular case, a full plate and a tower shield can prompt and entire rebuild and give a character four free feats while nearly reaping 100% of the benefits they had before.

As for the overhaul, let me explain, I suppose: I'll continue to edit this post as my ideas flow, so bear with me.

1: I think a change to an item cannot be too drastic to effect the quality of the game too much. Imagine a ring that gave "Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy." To me, that plate is equivalent to that type of item.

2. I think it's important to consider something like this: How much better is this then the closest Epic Loot you can find. I know DC items are different, but I think they need to be within limits. We're all in this together.

3. I think the customization might too be friendly. Alot of the time, with every piece of gear, there's something you think about and say.. "This could be better if this was like this." Or, perhaps with your entire set as a whole. With all customized gear, I feel that you're "Finalizing a character" just like WonWon said. I don't think you should be finalizating a character on a never-ending MMO type game.

You can make some great items without DCs as well, my Wonderforge has this:

+5 AB
Keen
1d10 Bludgeon
Onhit Constitution drain DC - 16

That is above your average epic loot due to using hard to get mythals

You know, for claiming to be such a great player, a greta powerbuilder, you've totally forgotten the fact that these things already exist in game. ASFZero, specifically.

Quote:

The dc system has been unbalanced and exploited since it was created. Yes, I can vouch for the existence of items mentioned (Including +5, 20 elemental resist, 0 asf full plate). I can also say that those are some of the LEAST rediculous examples. I can also point out that decisions on who gets what are often decided by the player. A simple request for a standard and underpowered item for a "powergamer" may take months. Where overpowered spell like ability/song/spell widgets for "rpers" will be approved quickly because it's "just" such-and-such.

It may have been in your day or even years ago, justice, but I give you my personal guarantee that I crack the whip and make sure EVERYONE gets treated with the same respect on their requests. No matter who they are. No matter what their build is.

Quote:

Most DC item requests don't have any spots left for mythalling.

I'll expound on this further: Except in extremely rare cases, we do not allow mythalling. Period. The sole example of an item ebing left mythallable was an katana that was requested: They wanted to do in game RP and use a Perfect Mythal to keen it, instead of anding in the perfect when creating the weapon. The weapon's price did not change and the weapon was immediately plotted to prevent any ufurther modification after Keen was added. All DC items are Plotted, and cannot be sold, traded, or modified by the mythal system.

Ron is correct in that the mythal system is a very poor indicator of item power.

Quote:

If my character ever got into a conflict with the clone of my character with the fullplate and the tower shield I have 0% chance of winning in a PVP duel.

Actually, given your clone is also a sorceror it comes down to whoever has the itchiest trigger finger and the highest initiative...

Your "case by case analysis" is done when the item is requested. It has long since been determined that Arcane Spell Failure Reduction is an allowable item property to request. Your outburst here will not change that I'm afraid, and the manner of your delivery has not helped your case at all.

Quote:

1: I think a change to an item cannot be too drastic to effect the quality of the game too much. Imagine a ring that gave "Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy." To me, that plate is equivalent to that type of item.

That's mechanically impossible in any case, and I do not believe it to be on the same level.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

1: I think a change to an item cannot be too drastic to effect the quality of the game too much. Imagine a ring that gave "Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy." To me, that plate is equivalent to that type of item.

That's mechanically impossible in any case, and I do not believe it to be on the same level.

I've already explained the logic behind it. But I will again, in case you missed it.

SF: Necromancy -> GSF: N -> ESF Necromancy. (3 free feats, 1 epic)

----

A character requesting that might've went Automatic Still Spell I-III

Still Spell->Automatic Still Spell I,II,III. Re-building this character provides (4 Free feats) 3 in the epic level. In a way it's BETTER than the ring I proposed, by a long shot.

It's kind of like if you were to create an armor that gave divine shield to paladins, if for whatever reason they didn't want to get power attack, cleave, 13 strength, and divine shield.

And Tormak, if you read my above post, I did mention I know about the chainmail, the halfplate, and the large shield. It's not the same thing though. It's 3 AC if you mythal'd your shield.

Well I think all the points of this argument have been either countered or exhausted. Time for a lock I think cause seriously if you think that it's out of balance then build up the DCs yourself and find out just how much RP, research, DM approval, and balancing go into /each/ of these requests and then you'll understand.

And my final two cents. If they are unbalanced well hey, they aren't called DREAM COINS for nothing.

Scimiter wrote:

Well I think all the points of this argument have been either countered or exhausted. Time for a lock I think cause seriously if you think that it's out of balance then build up the DCs yourself and find out just how much RP, research, DM approval, and balancing go into /each/ of these requests and then you'll understand.

And my final two cents. If they are unbalanced well hey, they aren't called DREAM COINS for nothing.

Do note, I'm solely stating my ideas, because I was asked to continue what I was saying. I'm not offending anyone by stating my views of the current system. Everyone who has the DC gear are probably fantastic roleplayers, but I do think that balance keeps the game fun for all players, new and old.

I understand and respect your logic but politely inform you that in the scope of our server's power level, you are wrong. ASFZero has been on purchaseable items and DC items and will continue to remain available on both.

Re; 2: This is again done in the balancing and request discussion process. We do this already.

3: That's your opinion. We don't release a new expansion pack that ups the level limit and thus the power level limit every six months. You hit 30 and thats it and there's a power ceiling. You will eventually have "end game gear". It does happen in MMOs before the release of the next epxansion pack.

Quote:

Alot of the time, with every piece of gear, there's something you think about and say.. "This could be better if this was like this." Or, perhaps with your entire set as a whole.

And thanks to the DC system, if your request is reasonable, RP backed, and approved by the DMS, you can do it.

I think you are making very big assumptions that the DM team and me especially is not doing their jobs in regards to DC requests. I take this personally because it is very uch my end of the table as an Admin to make sure the technical aspects of Dc items are as smooth and balanced as possible, so when you make corruption claims, when you say "you're doin' it wrong", you're telling that to me personally, not just the DM team in general. I don't mind criticism but I also think I (if I may toot my horn) basically one of the biggest grasps of the full power scale on the entire server given how lnog I've been here and how long I've been DMing in general. ASFZero has been around since Arelith days. This is nothing new and exciting in terms of being item powers, and if you are trying to whistle blow on what you feel is favoritism and DM bias you are quite mistaken, I am afraid.

Quote:

And my final two cents. If they are unbalanced well hey, they aren't called DREAM COINS for nothing.

This isn't true. There is a ton of behind the scenes balancing that goes into DC items. It is a necessity.

None of any of my posts have been about favoritism -AT ALL-... lesigh.

Then read everything but the last sentence and pretend I didn't write that one.

TormakSaber wrote:

This isn't true. There is a ton of behind the scenes balancing that goes into DC items. It is a necessity.

Was aiming for a little over the top drama with that. Please note that I support that work that is put into balancing by the DMS in everything said before it. I think this thread is off it's rocker. System is fine as it is and you're doing a great job with DC requests. Keep it up

I think the forums could do with a lot less over the top drama, next time. For future reference. But yeah, there's a lot of discussing that goes on about DC items and their powers.

Well I've read everything you've had to say, and I can agree with your critique of my third point.

And I suppose if you understand my logic, and the DC system and everyone approves of items like that, then I'll leave it be.

Thanks for the replies, though. (No sarcasm.) I'm sorry if I offended anyone. We're all here to have fun.

Of course all that said regarding power level... it does wiggle some. Like us saying +5 enhancement is requestable on weapons and armor and items again. But beyond that it's pretty firm. We've always had our "you can't request permahaste or True Sight" and generally speaking we do encourage players to aim high with their requests and trim down. I do anyways, because I know players want to feel they got the most out of their DCs, and for many, finalizing a character is the use of the DC system they go for. So if they don't feel like they got the most they could have for their DCs, then they're going to be unhappy with their purchase, and ideally you should always be satisfied with what you've spent your dreamcoins on.

Incidentally that's why, while I know the purpose is there, I've always been a bit leery about eating DCs for XP. It's also why I've tried to be freer and also give raw XP along with DC rewards.

Mimiron seems to dislike a lot of things on this server.
Not meant to be offensive, but why do you even play here then?

I think he is simply like many people and has very strong feelings about specific balance notions. He is also affected the most by the current intention to change Dark Blessing and Divine Grace, and possibly Divine Might/Shield. That combined with seeing the DC items topic likely has him feeling a bit edgy about his current build. It happens.

He plays to have fun like us.

Different people have fun in different ways. For some it's more about the RP, for others it's more about the PVM/PVP and action.

Quote:

Mimiron seems to dislike a lot of things on this server.
Not meant to be offensive, but why do you even play here then?

Why would you even say that?

With an attitude like that... -20 cool points for you.
When something is that you dont like people will either discard it or will try and better it. Mimiron is trying to better it. You are someone that would discard it.

As I said, that wasn't meant offensive, I truly wondered, as all the recent posts I read of him are well... Quite contra to use the word (ie, "contra" changes the dev team's planning, now contra the DC system, etc.

I did not intent to come off as "Don't like it, gtfo.", everyone has the right to express their opinion.

Well to me at least you came off as.

"Dont mean to be offensive but your an idiot"

What you said may not have been a direct offence but still didn't really have any base to be said.

DC Gear and Balancing.

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