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Dwagin wrote:

27 sorc 1 Pal, 2 rogue.

Comparing -THAT- to a Cleric monk?... not even in the same areacode.

If there's any other change that could come out of this it'd be I wish that Divine Shield's AC would be capped to highest class level capable of meeting Divine Shield's preqs.

Ergo, if you want +15 dodge AC you better be toting 15 levels of cleric/paladin/BG.

Might be a good idea, but remember that you need at least 4 levels of Paladin to get Divine Shield or Divine Might.

You need 3 levels of Paladin/BG to get Divine Might/Shield.

We don't seem to be keen on changing Divine Shield/Might. They still require investment, and we're probably not out to change the whole game balance drastically. Monk AC and Dev Crit are the only ones being seriously discussed right now, but there's no conclusion about what's the best solution.

Great change. If you'll remember, I suggested this over a year ago. For monk and paladin/bg.

Plenty of reasons to get a high fort save other than 'dev crit'. I don't mean to wail on and on about such weird things, but maybe you can finger it out.

Clever. And all are very satisfying methods of dying.

Persoanly, my 2 cents is that I like it. I almost exclusivly play paladins on NWN and honestly, it is a bit upsetting to see on so many servers so many people with 1 lvl of paladin just for the saves who barely even mention or act like a paladin in character. Ok, I atleast play a paladin on every server Ive played on as either a main or a very common alt. I realy don't see the dedication to the class that the point of all the bonuses are supposed to be given because of. A holy warrior, a defender of faith and avenger of good chosen, concecrated by their god, and given the tools to go forth and DO what they are meant to do. A blackguard falls under the same veign, though the dark gods are obviously a little more picky about who they chose since you can't just start out like that, but hey, paladins don't get to summon a cool evil buddy to go about smiting with either.
I've seen on a few servers a rule that I actualy liked alot about multyclassing that did cut out the 39sorc/1pally build (yeah they were capped at 40). 5 lvls in ALL classes by the time you hit 40, for paladin/monk you must have atleast 1/3 of your lvls in that class. I like the rule, it didn't stop all the uber builds but it did make more of them atleast roleplayed than what I saw on other servers. You could still have your pally sorc, or monk cleric, but they had to be atleast a 13 paladin or monk because of the dedication those classes require Icly. You could also be the evil blackguard, but you needed to wind up atleast lvl 5, to show some devotion to the dark gods who are jelous of thier power and handing it to you in return for your work to farther their cause.
Aside from all that, I've always believed, mabey a in error, that D&D is a ROLE PLAYING GAME, the trend of powerbuild first and figure it out IC later has never sat well with me. I've never made a character with a build intended, just make a character and see where the RP takes you. There are ofcourse some feats you'll want to take because they're good, and if you intend to be a weapon master you'd be kinda silly to start out as a wizard, but the game is about the character, not the build.

Anyway, that's just my very wordy 2 cents on the topic.

IronAngel wrote:

We don't seem to be keen on changing Divine Shield/Might. They still require investment, and we're probably not out to change the whole game balance drastically. Monk AC and Dev Crit are the only ones being seriously discussed right now, but there's no conclusion about what's the best solution.

I'm keen on changing it. There was other support too. You seemed to be the only one against it, actually.

For a thread that was announcing one change, there seems an inordinate amount of suggestions for other changes in here.

And stop whining about Dev Crit. It's easy to avoid.

Except when it's coming at you 5-7 times a round and your only defense relies on shoddy bioware dice that can and will produce ridiculous flukes, even if they need to beat full AC for it to hit. There is a very valid reason is is typically banned in most places and it normally has less to do with PvP and more to do with Monster balance. Surely you've noticed that nearly every higher end monster has a RIDICULOUS fortitude save. This is 85% because of Dev and 15% because of death Magic.

Dev Crit is easy to avoid. Be smart enough not to fight people that have it.

I have no sympathy or pity for people who complain about a move being overpowered in PvP against them because they are responsible for being in PvP situations and should get used to dealing with stuff like that.

I'd be less annoyed by it if people were offering suggestions how to maybe change Dev Crit rather than just whining about how overpowered it is. *shrug*

DolphinRacer wrote:

I'd be less annoyed by it if people were offering suggestions how to maybe change Dev Crit rather than just whining about how overpowered it is. *shrug*

Isn't it hard coded?

Not sure. The last two servers I played on had both it and Epic Dodge removed. Which made PvP a lot more interesting, believe it or not.

Yurell wrote:

DolphinRacer wrote:

I'd be less annoyed by it if people were offering suggestions how to maybe change Dev Crit rather than just whining about how overpowered it is. *shrug*

Isn't it hard coded?

Tormak has made a very good suggestion about disabling it and giving out a widget to replace the feat.

Your logic is terrible, Taelar.

"IGMS and Timestop isn't overpowered. Just don't fight people who have it.

"1 level of paladin for saves isn't broken. Just don't fight people who have it, then your spells will work easier."

Re: Dev. Dev itself is hardcoded. But you could remove Dev and replace it with a scripted item that does a variety of effects. No matter what you did, it would be a nerf and people would run away in droves, though.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Yurell wrote:

DolphinRacer wrote:

I'd be less annoyed by it if people were offering suggestions how to maybe change Dev Crit rather than just whining about how overpowered it is. *shrug*

Isn't it hard coded?

Tormak has made a very good suggestion about disabling it and giving out a widget to replace the feat.

And I would like that. I thought 1.69 also allowed you to create custom on-use feats ... or am I mistaken? I just remember being told last time I suggested it that making Dev Crit an on-use ability would make it suck, although I can't recall who said it.

Actually I agree the saves thing is broken. And I'm all for changing Dev Crit if you know a way to do so. I just have seen more complaining and less constructive criticism of it.

My point is more if you get into fights, expect to be confronted with the "Unfair."

TormakSaber wrote:

Timestop isn't overpowered. Just don't fight people who have it.

Actually, I have fundamental problems with timestop because I don't understand how someone, even with magic, could stop time in a localized area while it continued in other areas without doing some funny stuff to the fabric of existence and all that.

Though yes, it is overpowered. It can be changed to be less so though.

If it's not too much to ask, can you halt nerfing/buffing until you should decide what you're going to do and do it -all at the same time- please. Makes it much more rewarding to know what you're going to play isn't going to be altered some time in the immediate future. The reason is, is that I consider nerfing saves, AC from divine shield, and dev crit -ALL- very related issues.

We'll do things as we do them. Sorry.

Which is probably better. Pretty sure things would get pretty apocalyptic if you sprung a bunch of changes to those feats/abilities all at once.

Mimiron wrote:

Makes it much more rewarding to know what you're going to play isn't going to be altered some time in the immediate future.

Fact is, it will take ages to implement as the script haven't even been set out yet. I still see fountains of purification everywhere. In the meantime, stop wasting time complaining, go out and farm like you're supposed to, then plan for your rebuild on the sidelines. Chances are by the time the change is implemented, you'll have lost interest in your BG.

Tis' a good and fair change, indeed. I have to agree with the Monk idea too, added on top of the whole "it doesn't transfer into shifted forms" thing. It's a shame that low level Paladins and Monks will have to suffer from lowered saves and lowered AC, respectively, at start because of cheese builds. But oh well. The nature of the beast.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Tis' a good and fair change, indeed. I have to agree with the Monk idea too, added on top of the whole "it doesn't transfer into shifted forms" thing. It's a shame that low level Paladins and Monks will have to suffer from lowered saves and lowered AC, respectively, at start because of cheese builds. But oh well. The nature of the beast.

Lower levels really have nothing to lose. What are the chances of a lvl 4 paladin having much more than 20 Cha, anyway?
As for the monk, I'd prefer the per monk level cap and them allowed the feat at level one to be honest.

Yurell wrote:

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Tis' a good and fair change, indeed. I have to agree with the Monk idea too, added on top of the whole "it doesn't transfer into shifted forms" thing. It's a shame that low level Paladins and Monks will have to suffer from lowered saves and lowered AC, respectively, at start because of cheese builds. But oh well. The nature of the beast.

Lower levels really have nothing to lose. What are the chances of a lvl 4 paladin having much more than 20 Cha, anyway?
As for the monk, I'd prefer the per monk level cap and them allowed the feat at level one to be honest.

You realise of course that the AC doesn't even rate as half the problem from a purely powerbuilding perspective.

The scaling APR of a Div Powah cleric/Monk wielding Kamas gives the character with 22 dex 6 attacks above 50 AB.

20 BAB + 12 Modifier + 3 WF/EWF + 20 cap = 55.

-2 for dual wielding

53

Main hand attacks. 53, 50, 47, 44, 41
Off hand attacks. 53, 50
Bonus Attacks. 55, 50, (45 Cleave, circumstantial)

AC is really not a concern on a cleric given the Bog standard Monk vs Div Shield cleric has a variance of 1 AC.

12 dex mod versus 17 mod from a plate and vestmented tower shield?

11 wisdom mod versus 10 cha mod.

No its not the AC that breaks the Clonk at all.

WonWon wrote:

Goodbyyyyye Sorc/(Pal/BG)s!

Hurrah!

TormakSaber wrote:

Except when it's coming at you 5-7 times a round and your only defense relies on shoddy bioware dice that can and will produce ridiculous flukes, even if they need to beat full AC for it to hit. There is a very valid reason is is typically banned in most places and it normally has less to do with PvP and more to do with Monster balance. Surely you've noticed that nearly every higher end monster has a RIDICULOUS fortitude save. This is 85% because of Dev and 15% because of death Magic.

I love this! So true!

I dont get how you can defend 1pally level for all the goods it gave. And it sickens me to admit it but even I've dabbled in it.

Im interested to see what replaces Sor/(Pal/BG) now.

Out of curiousity, what would divine might/shield be changed to?

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Fact is, it will take ages to implement as the script haven't even been set out yet. I still see fountains of purification everywhere. In the meantime, stop wasting time complaining, go out and farm like you're supposed to, then plan for your rebuild on the sidelines. Chances are by the time the change is implemented, you'll have lost interest in your BG.

Thats not a nice attitude to have. Jeeze, guy seems to just be asking an honest question so his work doesn't go to waste...

You realise of course that what this may simply mean is that the favourable number of levels of Paladin/BG will change to whatever ridiculous CHA mod a character can get. Unless it means giving up too many bonus epic feats.

Selmak wrote:

You realise of course that what this may simply mean is that the favourable number of levels of Paladin/BG will change to whatever ridiculous CHA mod a character can get. Unless it means giving up too many bonus epic feats.

You mean the sorc29/pal1's are all going to become Sorc15/Pal15's?

Um.. saves are good... but not that good.

It effectively makes taking the class just for saves not worth it. Notice I say just for saves, disregarding the might/shiled for the moment. But for saves it's just "Hmm... I can either take 3 pally to get +3 to all my saves... or I could mythal a bit of my gear."

Once you're on the road to being puresorc, it's now probably better you stick with it. That's fine with me.

Dwagin wrote:

Thats not a nice attitude to have. Jeeze, guy seems to just be asking an honest question so his work doesn't go to waste...

We know what the answer is: It will change when it's changed.
It's nice enough that the team gives a heads up so people can plan to rebuild.

As far as Dev Crit goes, I'm of the opinion that it should really only be activated on crit damage of a large amount. Such as 100+. Basically that would mean it's limited to those weapons that could do devestating damage to an enemy, such as Tww Handed weapons and a few one handed ones.

It also stops Dev Crit from being done by Rapiers and Kurki's. Which typically aren't the kinda weapons that can do damage devestating enough to cause instant death. Not with Strength anyway. Now with detxerious movement and precise aiming it could be done yes, but I believe that is goverened by sneak attack and other damage types.

It then also makes using a Two Handed weapon worth it, as currently most Two Handed weapons are just gimmick's, since they remove a vast amount of AC by lack of sheilds, and give little benefit back.

That would actually be kinda cool. Though I have no idea how that would work, but making it activate relative to the damage the crit does (Preferably with sneak attack damage not counted on that, because that can push it over 100 again pretty easy even on weapons that don't do that much damage) seems pretty neat.

Epic characters can do epic things. This includes jamming a dagger so hard into your forehead that your skull snaps off your neck, shoving a rapier so up to its hilt through your heart and cutting your apart at the middle in one strike with a kukri, about a 5 inch blade, even if you have a 50 inch waist. Fantasy world and game physics are flavors of the day.

You can't "reason" logically that only twohanders and large weapons should be able to dev. At least not in a fantasy game. If anything is changed for dev, it will be because of balance, not because we crunched the RL numbers and found them inconclusive. :wink:

...the suggestion was I think as a means to address the balance issue, in multiple ways. I may be wrong though.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Epic characters can do epic things. This includes jamming a dagger so hard into your forehead that your skull snaps off your neck, shoving a rapier so up to its hilt through your heart and cutting your apart at the middle in one strike with a kukri, about a 5 inch blade, even if you have a 50 inch waist. Fantasy world and game physics are flavors of the day.

You can't "reason" logically that only twohanders and large weapons should be able to dev. At least not in a fantasy game. If anything is changed for dev, it will be because of balance, not because we crunched the RL numbers and found them inconclusive. :wink:

So by your rule of "Epic characters can do epic things", shouldn't an epic character be able to survive that? As opposed to being completely beheaded by a two handed sword, which isn't really survivable no matter how epic you are.

It's also a matter of balance, as those small weapons with obscene crit ratio's are what's being abused. They weren't meant to be used in the way they are being used I believe. However, they are. Which kinda makes no sense given that if a Kurki can apperently instantly kill someone so easily, shouldn't a two handed weapon have as much chance, if not more really?

Selvec Darkon wrote:

So by your rule of "Epic characters can do epic things", shouldn't an epic character be able to survive that? As opposed to being completely beheaded by a two handed sword, which isn't really survivable no matter how epic you are.

It's also a matter of balance, as those small weapons with obscene crit ratio's are what's being abused. They weren't meant to be used in the way they are being used I believe. However, they are. Which kinda makes no sense given that if a Kurki can apperently instantly kill someone so easily, shouldn't a two handed weapon have as much chance, if not more really?

Firstly, yes, they -can- and often do resist it. Natural fortitude on tanks as well as being mythalable makes it so it only works on a 1 in a lot of cases. In that sense, it's already balanced. Epic feat vs. Epic resistance to said feat.

I will agree that originally, the smaller weapons with large crit ratio were likely not intended for such. The reason it was likely made as such is that so dex-fighters could still do relatively average dealing over a round, through critting more often. Yes, in PnP there are dex-fighters. As in Fighter class, focusing in dex. I know, weird concept to Amia. :lol:

TormakSaber wrote:

Re: Dev. Dev itself is hardcoded. But you could remove Dev and replace it with a scripted item that does a variety of effects. No matter what you did, it would be a nerf and people would run away in droves, though.

I have Dev'er, and I fully support changing it to something else. I'd hope whatever "else" means wouldn't make taking the feat obsolete, but taking away the insta-win chance from it sounds fine to me.

Now, what would I like to see? Save against Timestop, double or triple the casting time of death spells, remove Freedom from items, modify Epic Dodge somehow.

There's probably a lot more, those just came off the top of my head.

To be fair i have a mage and have no problem with time stop being changed. Its a PVP spell anyway and not all that useful in PVM. I've currently cast the spell about twice in 3 years or however long ive been here.

Wouldnt mind if it cast a simultaneous 'slow' on a collosal area around the mage and mass haste at the same time. I wouldnt even mind if it worked as hold monster mass. Id be more inclined to use it then.

Yes, freedom removed. Make it a mythallable property if you like but expensive. It could always be changed to a 'one use per day' type thing too...I'm sure that idea has been pitched previously. Its not possible to rectify all the freedom items already in the module but it should tone it down at least.

It is in fact possible to remove any property from any items in players' inventories, without ruining the item itself. We have the technology!

There's not much of an actual "balance issue" in regards to Dev Crit atm.

The voices calling out for Dev Crit to be nerfed do so for the sake of personal distaste.

If you're looking at it from a pure balance perspective, Dev Crit doesn't need to be changed.

Dont go removing dev, until heal pots are nerfed. If your looking for broken, look at pm's spamming heal pots and just waiting for you to roll a 1 on dev.

I find it humorous that the vast majority of people in this thread complain about speciic incidences which they didn't enjoy - not things that are actually issues concerning balancing the server.

Nekhy wrote:

It is in fact possible to remove any property from any items in players' inventories, without ruining the item itself. We have the technology!

I learn something new everyday! Would that be a script of some kind?

Again i support heal being capped to 10hp per level but well...

People will make the argument that it give the cleric even more power...

Not so much buffing the cleric as nerfing the meleers hardcore, and they are already at the very very bottom of the totem pole.

TormakSaber wrote:

Not so much buffing the cleric as nerfing the meleers hardcore, and they are already at the very very bottom of the totem pole.

Agreed.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

As far as Dev Crit goes, I'm of the opinion that it should really only be activated on crit damage of a large amount. Such as 100+. Basically that would mean it's limited to those weapons that could do devestating damage to an enemy, such as Tww Handed weapons and a few one handed ones.

I agree with that.

Swallow the Stars wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Not so much buffing the cleric as nerfing the meleers hardcore, and they are already at the very very bottom of the totem pole.

Agreed.

Doubly so.

TormakSaber wrote:

Not so much buffing the cleric as nerfing the meleers hardcore, and they are already at the very very bottom of the totem pole.

Hmm...point taken. Not that im an expert at this game but if you use some tactics and dont just charge in, fighters take way less damage. I had to do this with my barb. He wasn't tumble dumped and had roughly 35AC doing the spires. Tactics are good.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

So by your rule of "Epic characters can do epic things", shouldn't an epic character be able to survive that? As opposed to being completely beheaded by a two handed sword, which isn't really survivable no matter how epic you are.

It's also a matter of balance, as those small weapons with obscene crit ratio's are what's being abused. They weren't meant to be used in the way they are being used I believe. However, they are. Which kinda makes no sense given that if a Kurki can apperently instantly kill someone so easily, shouldn't a two handed weapon have as much chance, if not more really?

Firstly, yes, they -can- and often do resist it. Natural fortitude on tanks as well as being mythalable makes it so it only works on a 1 in a lot of cases. In that sense, it's already balanced. Epic feat vs. Epic resistance to said feat.

I will agree that originally, the smaller weapons with large crit ratio were likely not intended for such. The reason it was likely made as such is that so dex-fighters could still do relatively average dealing over a round, through critting more often. Yes, in PnP there are dex-fighters. As in Fighter class, focusing in dex. I know, weird concept to Amia. :lol:

The fact that they are being used to spam Dev Crit though suggests a balance issue. Kinda similar to the paladin/sorc thing in the sense that the paladin bonus saves was meant to beef out a class that wasn't really matching up to other melee classes without it. But people started using it in conjuction with Sorc, and thus making spell throwers with obscene saves. Suggesting that it wasn't being used as originally suggested, and rather causing a balance issue.

Dev Crit as the feat of "Instant kill on crit if Fort save fails" is balanced fine. It's rather the application of the feat by user's that is unbalanced. Thus meaning perhaps something does need to be done.

Would it be possible to prevent people from being able to take Dev Crit: Rapier or Dev Crit: Scimitar?

Either if the server sees it on your character you're booted and given a message to contact a DM or just have that feat not available as a choice all together. You can get up to Overwhelming Crit: Rapier or whatever and then you're done.

Would keep people from being able to have obscene amounts of crits in a round unless they get lucky and would still allow those with the bigger weapons (i.e. smaller crit ranges) to have the feat.

I hadn't considered that before, but yes, each Devastatig Critical feat is its own separate feat. You could parse it out to specifically two handed weapons only if you wanted, for example, I bet, with some fancy letoscript. Or simply elimunate scimi/kukri/rapier.

Re: Paladin and Blackguard Saves

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