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Paxus

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 0:20 AM

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Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Location: CET (summer time)

As the thread subject says... Orcs, ogres, ogrillions, goblins, kobolds, and lotta' otha' monster PCs. I've be finding most of you being too friendly or too good for non-monster PCs. Why is that, I ask? What guides you to choose a powerful ork or a nimble goblin or kobold just to play a character that is like a human pallly or some goody cleric? Monster PCs be there not to serve hummies. All right, being a monster villian (or CN, anyway being evil depends on the point of view) may cause that you are constantly being rejected by many smoothies parties in all those hunting adventures. But still there are still many monster PCs that may part with you! Be proud of your origin be proud of your race. Do not flatten yourself under smoothskins' feet.
Enlighten me.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 0:31 AM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

Because PCs will RP as they will.

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IronAngel

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 0:34 AM

Player

Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland

While I agree that generally monster races aren't played to my tastes, I think you also have a rather one-sided opinion on them.

They aren't all wild savages. Hobgoblins are lawful and intelligent, often working as mercenaries for humans. Goblins are weak and cowardly when they don't have huge numbers, so they might seek protection from some human villain. And more importantly, there are no orcs (apart from Orogs and some special PCs) on Amia: the base race is half-orc, and they're not supposed to be monsters. Whenever they've grown up in human society, they have every opportunity to become just as good as the best of paladins. There's no drive for evil, though their circumstances might lead them that way. I'd like to see more diversity among half-orcs, especially.

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Kamina

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 0:43 AM

DM

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Location: Kent, England.

I've never really had a problem with Monster races who don't choose to RP with constant violence and/or racism. For example, the Tenek tribe of Kobolds aren't your typical Kobold tribe where they go the pillage in North Cordor's houses so you get sent to kill their priest, but they're good RPers.

I just struggle to see why you're posting this is all, it's not a problem if some people want to play good/happy Monster races?

Paxus

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 0:46 AM

Player

Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Location: CET (summer time)

IronAngel wrote:

Yeah yeah, I know the lore a little. Ok, I admit that I speak mostly about ogrillions. They're hardly predictable and hardly good beings, and when I meet an ogrillion that behaves like an lawful good being,I just widen my eyes and say: "whadda hell"? An ogrillion that loves everyone and every plant out there? Oh come on... Even Tormak must admit something is not right here.

Kamina

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 0:52 AM

DM

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Location: Kent, England.

Quote:

An ogrillion that loves everyone and every plant out there? Oh come on... Even Tormak must admit something is not right here.

Real life example of how it could EASILY work (note, I remember watching a program about this):

A Nazi SS Commander was captured during the second world war and put into a Prisoner of War camp in Scotland. At first this man as generally agressive, he said he hated every non-German there is. After many years at the camp he was released. What had changed however was that the people at the POW camp had treated him so well that he was converted as you will.

If an Ogrillion was shown love and stuff, isn't that a logical excuse for them to be at peace with people and nature?

Oh and before I forget, remember:
Your views on how a character should be played =/= How others think their characters should be played. If someone's a nature loving Ogrillion, let them be, it's not epically lore-breaking is it?

Dakotaen

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 0:57 AM

Player

Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Location: Denmark

As much as I agree that seeing everyone hug hairy/slimy/horned/disfigured/otherwise monstrous looking beings can get a tad dull and old, I really don't see how it's supposed to ruin your, or anyone else's gaming experience. You play the way you want, they play the way they want. It's one of those things that makes Amia what it is. I may be absolutely annoyed at that elf trying to convince my character that he should love everyone equally, but I think no less of the player behind her, I assure you.

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Sylfwe

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 1:02 AM

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Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Location: Stalking around.

Ultimately, if you're THAT annoyed by something, you can just try avoiding the character/person in question when no IC consequences bring you together and everyone can live happily ever after.

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Yurell

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 1:03 AM

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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

I must say I agree completely with Iron's point. He sums it up well, and I can't think of anything to add to it.

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Paxus

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 1:31 AM

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Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Location: CET (summer time)

Okay. I'm -not- trying to impose any non-smoothie PCs behaviour, but I just want to express my feelings about seeing -most- of monster PCs being good and almost (but not always) lawful characters. No matter of what current situation is. I'm just wondering, why someone chooses a monster PC when he wants to play a good character that is friendly to everyone out there. Especially if the character is of extreme alignment.
(about that SS commander... That's just not appropriate)

Kamina

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 1:36 AM

DM

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Location: Kent, England.

Quote:

I'm just wondering, why someone chooses a monster PC when he wants to play a good character that is friendly to everyone out there.

Because they want to.

Paxus

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 1:41 AM

Player

Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Location: CET (summer time)

Yaster Galer wrote:

Quote:

I'm just wondering, why someone chooses a monster PC when he wants to play a good character that is friendly to everyone out there.

Because they want to.

Allright, so a lawfull good ogrillion PC is acceptable on this server?

Yurell

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 1:44 AM

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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

Yes. Although I'd prefer the word 'tolerable', but that's just my personal opinion.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 1:47 AM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

I saw Nazi's.

Godwin's Law -> This topic

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Kamina

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 1:47 AM

DM

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Location: Kent, England.

Yurell wrote:

Yes. Although I'd prefer the word 'tolerable', but that's just my personal opinion.

This.

Paxus

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 1:53 AM

Player

Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Location: CET (summer time)

Quote:

Allright, so a lawfull good ogrillion PC is acceptable on this server?

Yurell wrote:

Yes. Although I'd prefer the word 'tolerable', but that's just my personal opinion.

Um... Okay... *amazed, he shuts his mouth forever*

Dark Immolation

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 2:01 AM

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Paxus wrote:

Quote:

Allright, so a lawfull good ogrillion PC is acceptable on this server?

Yurell wrote:

Yes. Although I'd prefer the word 'tolerable', but that's just my personal opinion.

Um... Okay... *amazed, he shuts his mouth forever*

Don't let it blow your mind. Like Yurrell said, tolerable. That's given with good RP background, explanation, etc, etc. As a general, but by no means an absolute rule, races can be pretty much anything in terms of align on Amia, but it's strongly recommended you at least have a basic knowledge of your PC's race, along with good and logical reasoning why they're not nesc. the "norm".

You definently might want to look into loosing the notion that "certain races have to be [insert class/align] in every case". Otherwise, prepare to have your mind blown on a daily basis. :lol:

BloodNAshes

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 2:07 AM

Player

Joined: 10 Jun 2007

I've seen many (too many) people play goblins and kobolds as "cute" but I've never seen this problem with horcs or ogrillons. Pretty much every one of those I run into, including my own, is the typical dull-witted brute. I can't recall running into a single good-aligned orc-blood in my entire time here, let alone a carebear so I'm pretty surprised you've said you've seen this specifically with ogrillons.

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Selvec Darkon

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 2:10 AM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.

Because PC's are in control. Nobody ever said PC's were sensiable.

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Yurell

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 2:13 AM

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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

If the player wants to do this, they can do it. Don't expect my dwarf to treat your ogrillion as anything other than a foul monster that has no right to live, though.

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DolphinRacer

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 2:27 AM

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Joined: 01 May 2009
Location: GMT-8 Bangor, Washington

The flip side of this is often people do not react the way they should (according to stereotypical lore mind you, not saying that its a law they should react a certain way) to monstrous races, partly I think because of the same motivations for wanting to get along that lead to good monsters, and partly because of over exposure to monstrous races in general. I do see some racism, but I think most people get tired of having to be like "OMG RAWR MONSTROUS RACE" every five seconds. The only races I see actively and routinely discriminated against almost everywhere I find them are kobolds and goblins.

Edit: Granted my experience is somewhat confined to Cordor, which supposedly suffers from more open-minded paranoia than other cities at the moment, but still....

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Yossarin

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 2:44 AM

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Joined: 23 Jan 2006

Only one thing really needs to be said about this: expect everything under the sun. Someone could love a monster, someone could hate a monster, someone could be indifferent to a monster. Someone could preach tolerance or intolerance. A monster could take you out to dinner. A monster could eat you for dinner.

Expect it all at any given moment. It is all legitimate. All of the viewpoints are right and justified. Even if only because they're naive or insane.

And no, I'm not saying which is which. That, too, is your opinion.

Paxus

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 3:00 AM

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Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Location: CET (summer time)

"but I've never seen this problem with horcs or ogrillons."
Maybe it depends on the point of view. I've seen many ogrillions that kept hummies' side in various RP situations that involved monster PCs, and that has amazed my character many times. On the other hand I guess ogrillions can vary from completely chaotic evil PCs to chaotic neutral at most. So perhaps sometimes they -could- not agree for some vile actions just because, well, they just say so. They're so unpredictable. But to be honest, I've never met my PC's kindred that would be doing some evil actions, even when spoken actions were just a little evil. That's why I'm moaning here.

Quote:

If the player wants to do this, they can do it. Don't expect my dwarf to treat your ogrillion as anything other than a foul monster that has no right to live, though.

And I do not expect you to. I just have the feeling that everyone is trying to be too nice to everyone out there, and that true roleplaying of your character's alignment is very scarce. Speaking of dwarves, I've been in a party with them many times. Because of my PCs alignment, my PC didn't care about what characters he partied with as long there was an action going on, but the dwarves should care. Correct me if I'm wrong but they shouldn't party with me. And, just to clarify things, I don't mind my PC being whacked by some dwarf as long as it's caused by IC reasons.

I hope you forgive my ignorance folks, for I'm just a newbie here so my observations can be wrong. Still learning Amia and the RP multiplay.

DolphinRacer

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 3:18 AM

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Joined: 01 May 2009
Location: GMT-8 Bangor, Washington

Paxus wrote:

Speaking of dwarves, I've been in a party with them many times. Because of my PCs alignment, my PC didn't care about what characters he partied with as long there was an action going on, but the dwarves should care. Correct me if I'm wrong but they shouldn't party with me.

You'll get used to that. I've been in parties with characters that shouldn't party with me or at least shouldn't be doing it so trustingly when they are individuals of certain faith or race and are aware that I am a tiefling. Bottom line is people will RP their characters how they want and unless they are blatantly violating some rule or the other in doing so, there ain't much to be done to fix it.

And you may partly be confusing the cause of the lack of hostility. A lot of people, not necessarily a majority but a definitely high number in my observations, are shoddy at RPing while hunting, both at RPing the actual hunt and RPing any sort of interaction between the participants. It may just be that they are more interested in the actual hunt than the RP.

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Guxx

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 3:18 AM

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Joined: 04 Dec 2007

So you want people to RP Dwarven racism but you're not RPing your Orcish racism... Nice.

Dwarves hate orcs... orcs hate dwarves... you ignore this yet you complain when a GOODLY character doesn't hate on you? Since you're not playing a goodly character don't you have all the more reason to play up your racial hate?

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J.G.

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 3:20 AM

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Joined: 03 Apr 2009
Location: Somewhere, anywhere, everywhere, and nowhere.

yea....around here (I mean Cordor) not being nice to everything will get you mobbed to death by word wielding Elves, Half-Dragons, Half-Drow, Half-Elves, Halflings, Goblins, Romantic Couples, Druids, ect...

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Yurell

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 3:23 AM

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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

J.G. wrote:

Try checking that around the NPCs. Remember - NPCs are people too

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DolphinRacer

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 3:25 AM

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Joined: 01 May 2009
Location: GMT-8 Bangor, Washington

J.G. wrote:

Actually no matter what you do you usually get verbally attacked by somebody...mostly Eary. Or sometimes Tae.

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Paxus

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 3:38 AM

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Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Location: CET (summer time)

Guxx wrote:

Many monster PCs I've been RPing with can confirm my PC's hatred or dislike towards non-monster beings. That of course doesn't mean that my PC will slay anything that he meets on his path for this would be just dumb. He would rather RP with them and I prefer this solution over all other.
Now that you mention "Goodly" characters. What should be the good PC's attitude towards other, xeno PCs? I doubt that a good PC would hate my PC (for example) for good PCs shouldn't be feeling hatred towards anyone. Goodness is tolerance, mercy, virtue. It shouldn't matter whether a character met by a good PC is of evil origin. It's like a Luke and Darth Vader. *closes his eyes waiting for the anvil to fall*

Yurell

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 3:44 AM

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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

Paxus wrote:

for good PCs shouldn't be feeling hatred towards anyone. Goodness is tolerance, mercy, virtue. It shouldn't matter whether a character met by a good PC is of evil origin. It's like a Luke and Darth Vader. *closes his eyes waiting for the anvil to fall*

Ummm, that's an opinion and seems, in general, to be wrong. Many (if not all) good characters especially NPCs, feel hatred.

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Paxus

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 3:47 AM

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Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Location: CET (summer time)

Yurell wrote:

Paxus wrote:

Ummm, that's an opinion and seems, in general, to be wrong. Many (if not all) good characters especially NPCs, feel hatred.

You're right, it's just my point of view. The way I perceive the things. But how a good person can be feeling hatred towards someone just like that? That's just a moral quiestion not connected to NWN.

Godo

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 3:49 AM

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Joined: 26 Aug 2009

Also remember that how the new goblin. Kobold, orc, ect is treated when they first start to play on Amia has allot to do with the characters personality as well. When the new player comes in and is treated like some huggable adorable creature then that’s how they will become.

I am also sorry to say but to the Goblins, like Godo, and others like kobolds and such, it is you, the humans, elves and hin who are the monsters.

It is not easy to play that evil creature as well, when you do you tend to get killed allot. Now personally that is fine with me on Godo getting killed allot but the one thing I dislike when it is done is that people keep saying why kill him, he will just come back. Allow the creature type races be evil, rude, hateful and even kill them but after you do then let that instance go and enjoy the next time you see them.

It is very hard to play the type creature that will be killed many times so I think that’s why many chose to be the huggable type instead of the killable type. It is also harder for those evil acting creatures to join a party as well, even amongst each other, Kobolds and Goblins of the evil nature do not like each other, even other evil aligned beings tend not to like or trust a Goblin around them, nor should they trust it. It is allot easier to play a trusted one to party up with others.

TormakSaber

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 3:50 AM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

Because they can. Just because you're Good aligned doesn't mean you can't 'hate'. Youre dragging RL morals into a game where your "morals" are defined into Real Cosmic Forces (tm).

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Paxus

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 4:02 AM

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Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Location: CET (summer time)

TormakSaber wrote:

Because they can. Just because you're Good aligned doesn't mean you can't 'hate'. Youre dragging RL morals into a game where your "morals" are defined into Real Cosmic Forces (tm).

I feel that I can drag in the real life morals in here, for the game is being played by real life people.
If a good person feels hatred towards some other one (for a racial reason for example) then how can he call himself a good aligned one? That's illogical. Maybe I'm not too good in Faerun lore. Maybe in Faerun a good person is one (for example - a paladin) that can freely kill, without a serious reason, several hundreds of goblins just for pure cause, so he could be then praised in the bards songs. That's just sick.
We're going off topic, I think.

Yurell

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 4:04 AM

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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

Paxus wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Because they can. Just because you're Good aligned doesn't mean you can't 'hate'. Youre dragging RL morals into a game where your "morals" are defined into Real Cosmic Forces (tm).

Good is a real force in the Dungeons and Dragons Universe, with its own definition. It is not necessarily what we'd call 'good' in real life.

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DolphinRacer

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 4:11 AM

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Joined: 01 May 2009
Location: GMT-8 Bangor, Washington

...Emotions are in no way, shape or form limited by ones morality. Period.

And more importantly as stated above, Good and Evil are forces in this world, not just abstract ideas. And you can have some pretty nasty people serving good sometimes.

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Paxus

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 4:16 AM

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Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Location: CET (summer time)

Yurell wrote:

Good is a real force in the Dungeons and Dragons Universe, with its own definition. It is not necessarily what we'd call 'good' in real life.

So you're saying that goodness in DnD differs from the RL perception of the term? Is the goodness in DnD a childish B&W perception of goodness, in which a good person equals a person that feels hatred to all xeno beings or all beings of different racial or alignment?
I thought that perception of alignment and racial attitude was always dependant on person's preference during character's alignment and race choice.

Yurell

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 4:18 AM

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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

Paxus wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Good is a real force in the Dungeons and Dragons Universe, with its own definition. It is not necessarily what we'd call 'good' in real life.

Certainly neither childish nor black and white. An elf can hate an orc and still be CG. A paladin can hate the undead and still be LG.

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DolphinRacer

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 4:22 AM

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Joined: 01 May 2009
Location: GMT-8 Bangor, Washington

Where did you pick up any sort of implication that the status of good or evil was determined solely by what you hate?

The servants of Good or Evil are determined by the actions they take and the intent with which they take them. And morality is more fluid than you seem to think it is. Your attitude strikes me as more Black and White than others. Assuming that good people can't hate is a lot less fluid and potentially gray than assuming they are capable of all emotions.

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BrainSplitter

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 4:26 AM

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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia

Evil, Good, Law, Chaos - all actual, quantifiable, forces within Abier Toril, as determined by Ao (The Overgod) and depending on what lore source you use - the White Light as well as the very creator of the multiverse. You can detect them with spells, you can repell them, you can utilize them, you can hide and can exude them. Some magical items will even -judge- you based on them.

Racism in real life may be considered bad by some people, and with good reason. There's no biological difference, brains work the same, it's just skin and heritage.

However, in Abier Toril, the different races really are -quantifiably- different. Everything from their culture, to their physiological makeup, to their psychological factors, to their very appearances all vary by race. Chromatic Dragons, for example, are naturally born to evil, and as are their kin - even before hatching or being born, they are smart, intelligent, and already self-thiniking, and in the sense of CHromatics - cruel creatures.

By no means is treating or judging a creature differently based on tangible facts and differences evil. If a Drow walks up to someone, it is not evil to want to kill them. Why? Because a Drow is a creature bred for evil, for cruelty, for malice - and does quite well at it I might add - as well as being a greatly proven force of outright slaughter to the common man.

I guess the difference is that in RL, Racism is based off of a mere perception. Often unfounded.
In Abier Toril, Faerun, Forgotten Realms - all of these things are not only provable, but outright tangible. Evil creatures are evil, and associating with them is more of an evil action than killing them or removing them.

The same goes for many acts. Hate isn't evil, it's purely an emotion. Anyone can hate, even a Paladin (though acting on it poorly can be quite a bad mark on your record, and ability to keep your power).

A Good character who knows his way around the world, is probably going to kill any goblin, kobold, or the like he sees. Why? They're evil creatures, again a provable point, they're -by sheer nature- (as opposed by nurture) evil little bastards that pillage and murder wildly.

End Rant.

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Paxus

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 4:28 AM

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Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Location: CET (summer time)

Yurell wrote:

Certainly neither childish nor black and white. An elf can hate an orc and still be CG. A paladin can hate the undead and still be LG.

Undead I understand for they are non player characters (as long as someone is not playing a lich which should be real rare) and are poor souls that seek for a rest.
Orcs... or any other beings... just read the Paladin Code that is bound to your Paladin character. I know that some of the rules may be misinterpreted but a true good player would interpret them the proper way.

DolphinRacer

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 4:35 AM

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Joined: 01 May 2009
Location: GMT-8 Bangor, Washington

WonWon wrote:

I wish I could be as eloquent as WonWon. He's got it dead on.

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Paxus

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 4:37 AM

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Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Location: CET (summer time)

WonWon has unwillingly opened a discussion on some other phylosophical and interesting issues.

DolphinRacer

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 4:40 AM

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Joined: 01 May 2009
Location: GMT-8 Bangor, Washington

Actually I think he just made the point you seemed to be missing, though granted it is off topic to the OP. And you seemed to have missed the point still.

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BrainSplitter

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 4:42 AM

Player

Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia

It's hardly a discussion.

It's me saying "This is how Faerun Works"

You can discuss, or disagree, all you like. You can also claim the sky is pink, grass is made of mercury, and that trying to change a car's fan belt while it's running is a smart idea

All are very, very wrong.

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Paxus

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 4:43 AM

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Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Location: CET (summer time)

DolphinRacer wrote:

Actually I think he just made the point you seemed to be missing, though granted it is off topic to the OP. And you seemed to have missed the point still.

I'll check it again later then for it's getting real late here. Hope I'll get that missing point thou be speaketh o'.

Yurell

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 4:51 AM

Player

Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

Won is right. Some races are less inherently evil than others (e.g. Chromatic Dragons are more evil than drow, given that drow can be good, despite how rare it is), but alignments are very, very real - Planes can even have these, and treat others outside their alignment with abject hostility.

I'd suggest reading through previous discussion on these topics ... there are a lot of points.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 5:08 AM

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

Yes, Ron is right. There's no discussion. This is how Faerun is. RL morals have no bearing. Your ideals have no merit. Your college degree in sociology and psychology mean nothing.

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DolphinRacer

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 5:09 AM

Player

Joined: 01 May 2009
Location: GMT-8 Bangor, Washington

TormakSaber wrote:

Your college degree in sociology and psychology mean nothing.

You mean they mean something in the real world? >.>

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Lally

Posted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 5:10 AM

Player

Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Location: Leather chair, USA. Tell me about your mother.

I got some nice visuals off that fan belt analogy.

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