AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mark III

I think the ab is still the same... you get
4 figher/bg 16 bard = 4(1)+16(.75)=4+12=16 BAB
5 fighter/bg 15 bard = 5(1) + 15(.75)= 5+11.25 16 BAB

I think this is accurate... but taking the 2nd level of fighter in epic gives u a much better free feat.

Last edited by xordae on Sat, Nov 21 2009, 9:21 AM, edited 2 times in total.

There are no fractions for 3/4 AB classes. You simply don't get an AB bonus at levels 1, 5, 9, 13 and 17.

To expand on my answer a little: The 16th Bard level is just as good as a 5th full BAB class level. You get a 4th attack as soon as you have 4 full BAB levels and 16 levels of a 3/4 class, if you make sure the 3/4 class levels can be divided by 4.

GreatPigeon wrote:

I think the ab is still the same... you get
4 figher/bg 16 bard = 4(1)+16(.75)=4+12=16 BAB
5 fighter/bg 15 bard = 5(1) + 15(.75)= 5+11.25 16 BAB

I think this is accurate... but taking the 2nd level of fighter in epic gives u a much better free feat.

Would I get that fourth attack, though?

Yes 16 BAB is the fourth attack.

MoshingChris wrote:

Yes 16 BAB is the fourth attack.

Hell yes.

I guess that leaves me with just one question: Do I push for Dev Crit at the expense of ESF Perform/Armor Skin or do I go for ESF Discipline?

Ignore Dev

Perhaps aim for the Elven Spellchain instead of a full plate. I play a dev critting bard with a full plate, and getting caught off guard on that guy is hell. You could hope to get -45% Spell Failure on a full plate with DCs, but that might run you up pretty high. Do a large shield with -X (can't remember the number) spell failure, and you're off a bit better. I'd probably trade in the 2 AC for the ability to stroll around armored with Eir, and being able to cast at the same time, if I were to rethink his current gearset.

As for Dev crit, it really depends on your damage output, I guess, and what you want to play. If Eir didn't have Dev Crit he'd be worthless in PvP. In PvM, the only reason he's not worthless as is, is that few things hit him often enough to actually kill him. Don't know, you'll likely be dishing out more damage than him with your build, so Dev shouldn't be necessary.

Oh, and Epic Bard with ESF: Perform is just awesome by default, if it's played out.

Take the 2nd fighter level in epic... there is no reason not to that I can see... a pre-epic feat cannot compare to an epic feat...

Quote:

If Eir didn't have Dev Crit he'd be worthless in PvP.

This applies to pretty much every RDD. Pansy 50 damage crits, or insteadeath. Gotta love it.

Bard 23 / Fighter 4 / Blackguard 3

Abilities:

STR 17 -> 24
DEX 8
CON 10
WIS 8
INT 13
CHA 16

1Bard1 Feat: Power Attack, Feat: Cleave
2Bard2
3Bard3 Feat: Extend Spell
4Bard4 Str +1
5Bard5
6Bard6 Feat: Blindfight
7Fight1 Feat: Weapon Focus Longsword
8Bard7 Str +1
9Bard8 Feat: Maximize Spell
10BG1
11BG2
12BG3 Feat: Divine Might, Str +1
13Bard9
14Bard10
15Bard11 Feat: Curse Song
16Bard12 Str +1
17Bard13
18Bard14 Feat: Improved Critical Longsword
19Bard15
20Bard16 Str +1
21Fight2 Feat: Epic Weapon Focus Longsword, Feat: Armor Skin
22Fight3
23Bard17
24Fight4 Feat: Weapon Specialization Longsword, Feat: Epic Weapon Specialization Longsword, Str +1
25Bard18
26Bard19
27Bard20 Feat: Lasting Inspiration
28Bard21 Str +1
29Bard22
30Bard23 Feat: Epic Skill Focus Perform, Feat: Epic Skill Focus Discipline

AC: 10 base + 1 dex + 8 fp + 4 armor + 5 song + 4 haste + 5 boots + 4 amulet + 4 cloak/ring + 3 tower shield + 4 shield + 6 tumble + 1 Mage Armor= 59 (61 Armor Skin)

AB: 21 base + 5 enh + 3 feats + 2 song + 13 str = 44

I would not consider Epic Perform Focus a necessity. At 23 Bard, you only need 65, and you'll easily hit that with gear. But then, most of the important feats are already included in the build and it does give you more freedom with equipment. Taking Epic Fort or somesuch is worth considering, anyway.

Good idea - especially considering that Bards get max saves on Will and Reflex, but not Fort. Done and done.

Now, my final real question:

I'm taking out cleave because it's pretty much pointless. I subbed in KD. Do I get rid of something for IKD? If so, what? I can throw a point onto INT with no harm done so that I have the prereqs.

I don't consider anthing in that feat list droppable.

You also seem to have forgotten you can't drop Cleave because it's a pre req for Blackguard. *whack*

TormakSaber wrote:

I don't consider anthing in that feat list droppable.

You also seem to have forgotten you can't drop Cleave because it's a pre req for Blackguard. *whack*

D'oh.

Y are we taking 13 intelligence again?

A question about Attacks of Opportunity.

I just made a fighter who uses a sling; he took Point Blank Shot at lvl 1. But he's getting AoO's all the time. I thought this feat eliminated penalties from using ranged weapons in melee. Apparently that's not the case.

For some reason I imagined the AoO's arising from two hands required to operate a bow, leaving the archer vulnerable. But since my fighter is using a sling and carrying a shield, I never expected AoO's.

Is there a way to use ranged weapons in melee and not get AoO's? And I'm not gonna have him take that stupid Mobility feat. From what I can tell it just raises AC by 4 during an AoO, doesn't eliminate it.

Looking for a Paladin Build, nothing too fancy but i'm wondering if I should go Charisma based, or go for dev crit?

I'm lost when it comes to melee builds, so stats/feats i should aim for would be appreciated.

Xalyth
Charisma build, more AC in long run, better saves, and the dev crit is just overused.

GreatPigeon wrote:

Xalyth
Charisma build, more AC in long run, better saves, and the dev crit is just overused.

I disagree. You can get all the saves and AC you need from a Strength build, but with higher AB - even without Dev considered. I would only suggest going Charisma build if you want Great Smite, and at least Great Smite 5 at that.

16-18 Charisma should be fine.

Pallies get CHA pretty easy, 18 CHA and +12 from items/spells give you a +10 mod for all the goodies and you can even consider divine might/shield with that.

hendrack wrote:

Pallies get CHA pretty easy, 18 CHA and +12 from items/spells give you a +10 mod for all the goodies and you can even consider divine might/shield with that.

Paladin's don't "consider" Divine Might/Shield. They need it. I assure you. 18 base Charisma should do you.

Should I go with a pure paladin?

Multiclass for CoT/any other class?

I'm thinking maybe a mixture of str and charisma, going 18 charisma and rest into strength. The smite path might be a good one, given I'd like to make her a Sunite.

Also, I've thinking of using a Warhammer, just because it feels so right to smite evil with a hammer.

Also, I'm stuck between extend spell and armor skin

Are a Cleric's Evocation Spells useful enough to take Spell Focus feats to boost them? Evocation spells that would benefit from increased spell DC are:

Hammer of the Gods (4)
Flame Strike (5)
Word of Faith (7)
Earthquake (8 )
Firestorm (8 )
Implosion (9)

My cleric's base DC is 24+Spell Lvl.
3 Spell Focus feats increase this to 30+Spell lvl.
A good use of feats?

[He gives up 1 ranged attack/round as a trade-off to take these SF feats].

Word of Faith is Evocation? You positive about that one? Hamme rof the Gods is most surely Divination.

However, Earthquake and Implosion are very awesome.

Dervish wrote:

Are a Cleric's Evocation Spells useful enough to take Spell Focus feats to boost them? Evocation spells that would benefit from increased spell DC are:

Hammer of the Gods (4)
Flame Strike (5)
Word of Faith (7)
Earthquake (8 )
Firestorm (8 )
Implosion (9)

My cleric's base DC is 24+Spell Lvl.
3 Spell Focus feats increase this to 30+Spell lvl.
A good use of feats?

[He gives up 1 ranged attack/round as a trade-off to take these SF feats].

I'd go for it, honestly. A HotG is very often overlooked, but with a DC of 34, and empowered or maximized irresitable damage along with a stat effect, it's definently one to use. Earthquake, Firestorm, and Implosion are pretty much all self-explanitory.

Btw, Word of Faith is saveless. Unless they make SR save, if you're pure-cleric, you'll auto-blind them for 15 rounds. Not to mention unsummon anything they may have out. great spell, but won't be affected by the spell focii.

Edit: Yep, Hammer and Word are both Evocation.

Last i checked, there is a Will save vs Blind for WoF on Amia btw.

Jas wrote:

Last i checked, there is a Will save vs Blind for WoF on Amia btw.

So they both are evocation, and yes, it's a will save.

Definitely worth it.

Thanks for the replies. I guess I'll go for the SF:Evocation feats.

But that begs the question: Is there sling with Point Blank feat on it for sale from a merchant? I've seen a bow with it.

My cleric will be a slinger, he was going to take Point Blank and Rapid Shot feats, but will have to give them up for the SF feats.
I'm not asking to know the merchant, just a yes or no will be very helpful. Thanks.

I'm playing a Paladin at the moment, as a Champion of Lathander.

So far, I've got the following...

Human Paladin 7/Champion 5

STR 14
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 16>19

I've Power Attack and Divine Might with Extra Turning to get loads of extra damage. I've also got Extra Smiting. I have Blind Fight and Knockdown, but rarely use them, and also have Weapon Focus and Improved Critical in Longsword, since it's a very paladin-like weapon, in my opinion, although a Keen Rapier with Improved Critical would do more damage..

I don't really bother with Cleave and its chain of feats, since it is only really useful against mooks.

Any suggestions?

I don't really want any classes but these two, since Paladins shouldn't really multiclass too much in my opinion.

Last edited by xordae on Tue, Nov 24 2009, 16:04 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Starting with 16 Cha makes it pretty painful to get into Great Smiting later on, so I would instead up the Cha to about 20 and then put the remaining 3 points into Str (with one great Str later).

Also I noticed you only got 12 Wisdom which means you can't access level 3 and 4 Spells. That's kinda a big thing since GMW, Freedom and Death Protection all fall in that category. If I were you I'd redo the build with 2 Dex less and 2 Wis more. Maybe even 4 Dex less and 2 extra Int. After all, 15 Tumble = 3 AC (with a Cat's Grace that could be 5), 2 Dex = 1 AC (Cat's Grace makes that 2).

Keep bumping up charisma, Imho KD is a waste if you dont take IKD. Dont go rapier, a rapier using paladin is just asking to get punked in the locker room. Lathander is in the desert, so depending on your race, you maybe could have gotten away with using a scimitar.

As for the class situation, I'd suggest a level of monk of 2 levels of rogue... You'd be able to get your 6 points of AC from having 30 points in tumble... 6 ac is so willing

Monk fits more with the class, rogue allows you to also get UMD. Monk could be rp'd as saying he became a monk for a time after he was naughty and lost some of his paladinniness and was forced to stay in the monastery for a time as pennace... or something like that. Rogue skills say you could say he was naughty growing up

xordae wrote:

Starting with 16 Cha makes it pretty painful to get into Great Smiting later on, so I would instead up the Cha to about 20 and then put the remaining 3 points into Str (with one great Str later).

Also I noticed you only got 12 Wisdom which means you can't access level 3 and 4 Spells. That's kinda a big thing since GMW, Freedom and Death Protection all fall in that category. If I were you I'd redo the build with 2 Dex less and 2 Wis more. Maybe even 4 Dex less and 2 extra Int. After all, 15 Tumble = 3 AC (with a Cat's Grace that could be 5), 2 Dex = 1 AC (Cat's Grace makes that 2).

I wasn't expecting to need level 3 or 4 spells, since I was only going to take 10 levels of Paladin, the rest Champion. I was expecting to get Freedom etc via items.

I really dislike the idea of taking Tumble with Monk and Rogue levels, it really doesn't fit the character, in my opinion. I'd never put Rogue levels on my Paladin in pen and paper unless it was an inquisitorial type, and my character isn't the sort.

Becoming a Monk is also a no-go.

I've never done a rebuild before, does it cost DCs?

If you only get 10 Pala levels then you can forget what I said about Wisdom. I meant to take Tumble as a non-class skill, meaning you spend 30 points to gain 15 points in the skill. But it's not that essential, since the difference between getting hit and not getting hit will be whether Divine Shield is activated, anyways. So just look at the first paragraph of what I said.

Well, I'm rebuilding with wisdom anyway, since it fits the character better, and Luck of Heroes to make up for lost reflex.

His AC is high due to gear anyway, and Divine Shield will be added too.

10 Paladin/20 CoT, Cha Based?

For all but 3 attacks per day, and under Divine Wrath, your ab will be awful. Awful. Probably less than 40!

Get more Paladin levels. Your guy will be a whole different animal if he's packing GMW+5, Divine Favour+5 spam, and the like.

I'm thinking of rebuilding to straight paladin, high CHA, 14 WIS.

This way I can cast pally spells, still turn undead, and use Divine Shield, Divine Might.

Does GMW stack with already enchanted weapons? I thought it didn't, so was a waste of a spell casting it on your +4 longsword?

It doesnt stack. It turns your +4 longsword into a +5 longsword.

Right you are!

It will also save me wasting item slots on Freedom and Death Ward, I reckons.

And my uber-Charisma will turn the crap out of undeads.

Perfect for a Lathandrite.

Is there sling with Point Blank feat on it for sale from a merchant? I've seen a bow with it.

I'm not asking to know the merchant, just a yes or no will be very helpful. Thanks.

The only answer you'll get is probably: Dunno.

Think there are bracers with point blank shot. Other than that, you need to spend DCs. I did that for my crossbow.

Well, since Kjetta already ruined the fun, might as well give my opinion; the feat is more important than the slot. A.k.a. don't take the feat, use the bracers.

EDIT: As you're probably really tight on feats already as a cleric. However, if you're not, I might consider taking the two as actual feats. Not aware of your situation so difficult to say.

Yes, my cleric is very tight on feats. As long as there's some sort of gear with Point Blank on it, that's good enough for me. Thanks.

A sling-wielding spellcaster cleric? Awesome. I had a build made for one such, but I decided to go for quarterstaff and melee skill after all. Darts are better, but the whole David and Goliath theme is worth it.

A disabler cleric with high Wis, Zen Archery, Evocation foci and a sling is going to be sweet. Take Called Shot! You'll have awesome AB.

IronAngel wrote:

Take Called Shot! You'll have awesome AB.

Oh yea? I've never looked at Called Shot. Does it really work that well?

I figure my cleric's AB will be in the mid to high 40's. The -4 AB from Called Shot will knock it down to low to mid 40's. Is that good enough to make it effective? And does it work as advertised?

It's a choice between Expertise or Called Shot. Which will be the most useful? I've never taken either one.

The Called Shot feat adds cumulative penalties each time it hits (arms). But you have to have it hotkeyed and use (read: spam) it to get the most out of it. Expertise gives you more AC but reduces your AB. But it just needs you to toggle it.

CS is useful when facing few opponents, Expertise is useful when facing lots.

If I take 16 levels of Monk pre-epic, then 4 more in epic, will I get all the UBAB attacks, or do I need to take 18 pre-epic to get those?

jafman30 wrote:

If I take 16 levels of Monk pre-epic, then 4 more in epic, will I get all the UBAB attacks, or do I need to take 18 pre-epic to get those?

if the 4 other pre epic levels are full BAB-classes you will get all attacks.

If you use a 3/4 or 1/2 BAB-class you will not.

You only need 1 monk level to qualify for the extra unarmed attackes I beleive

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