AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mark III

Mr Mago wrote:

I know what Katsumi's current build is...

... and it's a mess. Like... a -complete- mess.

I read that as "She took a few points in skills everywhere.*

blackvswhite wrote:

Quote:

You can't make a tanky, hard hitting SD because you'll ultimately waste 90 percent of your feats and gear slots getting your Hide/MS to 110ish

do you really need more than your 33 in move silently? does anyone use listen, and doesn't it work more slowly and inefficiently than spot?

and what spot/listen do you need to beat for PvM?

You don't need Spot for PvM because even the best AI's can't HiPS properly.

In PvP and especially FvF and especially now that theres a dramatic increase in Spotting Clerics if your max Hide score isn't going to get over 100 don't bother wasting levels on SD.

that answers appoximately none of my questions. I guess I worded it wierd. How much hide/ms is necessary for PvM and does anyone put points into listen for PvP?

Some people may drop pts into listen instead of spot... although spot picks up sneaks quicker than listen. *shrug* My listen-based character seems to do roughly as good at picking up SD's in RP as my spot-based. Don't know about PvP as my listen-based hasn't ever gotten into a tussle with a SD.

blackvswhite wrote:

that answers appoximately none of my questions. I guess I worded it wierd. How much hide/ms is necessary for PvM and does anyone put points into listen for PvP?

Oops I actually bauxed in my reply due to not being able to read your sentences properly.

Don't differentiate IMHO

If your going a HiPSer run the maximum possible hide/ms at all times regardless of PVM or PvP.

And yes you can nerf Move Silently somewhat because the Listen Model will still let you hit sneaks even if someone can "hear you"

MoshingChris wrote:

And yes you can nerf Move Silently somewhat because the Listen Model will still let you hit sneaks even if someone can "hear you"

You know they're there, but you don't realise that they're the one who is stabbing you repeatedly with a stiletto.

Not only do good Palemasters need 20 PM levels, and a base Int of 20, they need four fighter levels to get epic weapon focus, six mage levels for the potion crafting feat to make True Strike potions at their leisure, not to mention other bonuses. That makes them good enough melee-fakers to be able to hit at the same level as fighters while winning a drinking contest, but also (while hasted) cast Hellball and Greater Ruin so they hit at the same time, with an Armor Class of 81 (if you took improved expertise.)

Why wouldn't you want one?

Becuause you're suppsed to do 10 fighter/4 bard/16 PM if you really want it The less of 2 AC is completely worth the games you get by being able to max out tumble (so a gain of +1 AC), better BAB, maxed discipline, spec and epic spec, and UMD.

TormakSaber wrote:

Becuause you're suppsed to do 10 fighter/4 bard/16 PM if you really want it The less of 2 AC is completely worth the games you get by being able to max out tumble (so a gain of +1 AC), better BAB, maxed discipline, spec and epic spec, and UMD.

There's a lot of "supposed" in that sentence. Put your build with mine in the ring and it'll be a close call, depening what gear you have, and how you use it.

[edit:] and how drunk I am, and how sleepy we both are, and how much I want it, and you. There would have to be a couple dozen battles to get a statistical winner on it. Or more, depending on how cheap we fight, which would be a lot, considering me.

Two melee PMs running in circles to negate truestrike sounds like a funny sight with a bit of Benny Hill music.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

I know what Katsumi's current build is...

... and it's a mess. Like... a -complete- mess.

I read that as "She took a few points in skills everywhere.*

Not...really. Her skillpoints are, far and away, dumped into Spellcraft and Tumble cross-class, and Concentration.

It's just the variations of levels and whatnot, and her gear...it's a mess. Like Mago said.

I'm looking to rebuild Kichirou right now. Anyone got a really good SD build I can borrow? For the record Axl says /she's/ no good with builds and she's the one that /I/ ask for build help <3

So if you got a good one I'll need it level for level, feat for feat and rank for rank even so I don't screw it up ^^

He is currently:

Human
10/14/6 SD/rouge/ranger
Dual shortswords
All top tier SD only gear from the academy

Base stats:
15
22
14
10
12
10

Rogue 19/Ranger 1/SD 10 is a solid one I see a lot. Going above 1 ranger is a bit of a waste, even if you're after the ITWF at Ranger 9, you'll spend less levels by going Fighter instead, thus keeping more of your sneak dice.

You'll want to really try and get your dexterity to 25+, as going 10 SD unlocks Epic Dodge without spending your rogue feats. Strength can probably be lowered to compensate. If you're not getting epic dodge, you're probably better served with another ability base.

But, someone who is better with rogue/SD builds should be able to help you better than I.

TormakSaber wrote:

Becuause you're suppsed to do 10 fighter/4 bard/16 PM if you really want it The less of 2 AC is completely worth the games you get by being able to max out tumble (so a gain of +1 AC), better BAB, maxed discipline, spec and epic spec, and UMD.

The problem with the Bard-PM build is that you're trying to squeeze the most AB out of it when you're never going to be good at hitting things no matter what you do, so instead of pursuing that avenue I decided to work with the strengths of the class instead of trying to tweak the weaknesses.

The benefits of going 20 PM, 6 wiz and 4 ftr are so many and so surprising that I probably can't list them all off the top of my head. Some of them I can think of:

- your AB is going to be in the low 30s, which is awful for PvP but enough to hit most monsters and bosses.

- you don't have to worry about spot because you can turn into an umberhulk 5 or so times a day.

- you can also use your death touch, as well as cast hellball and greater ruin and if necessary summon a dragon in umberhulk form, which makes the most annoying class ever (shadowdancers) mincemeat.

- the DC for your death touch is almost 40, which is great assuming you can actually touch anyone with such a low AB.

- you can cast up to level 7 spells for some reason, most of which are at the strength of a level 6 mage, but others, like Spell Breach are the same strength regardless.

- others like greater stoneskin and bigby's interposing hand last for about a minute, but in PvP that's about as long as you'd need them for before you're dead, they're dead, or it's going to be a draw.

- for the spells like Bigby's Forceful Hand that you can cast with Still Spell, (and lasts about as long as a knockdown at 6 caster levels,) you can craft them onto blank scrolls with that feat and they come out as a level 15 spell for some reason.

- since you don't have to waste skill points on spot or UMD, and because your base int is 20, and you probably want to go with a human, you have more skill points than you know what to do with.

- You can max out hide and move silent, and craft a suit of sneak gear which gets both of them up to about 87. Not epic but pretty good.

- you can max out spellcraft for the extra saves vs spells.

All told, this build has about as high an AC as you can get, and it can do a whole lot of damage in the first round. If you haven't killed what you wanted to by then you're hooped. But all the little bells and whistles, not all of which I could recall off hand, make it a really fun build for RP as well.

Now if someone (hopefully Tormak or Hexx) could espouse the virtues of the classic dev critting Bard4/ftr16/PM10, that'd be great, or also correct me if I got something wrong here. You don't have to mention that melee clerics own this class because I know that already.

And if anything I mentioned is actually an exploit that I'm not aware of that'd be good to know as well.

Okay I would like ro know what i s a good base strength actually hit monsters in say the abyss. I have 21 so far was thinking of stopping at 22. Mind you I'm looking to be able to hit in order to deliver damage from other feats.

Class(es), layout and other stats?

Quick question after reading D-finity's post - are we allowed to cast epic spells when polymorphed?

Yep, was brought up previously in another topic, can't remember what it was called, though.

I don't see why not. Epic Spells are indelible functions of your casting repertoire: Wizards can cast an epic spell without their spellbook, for example. It's ingrained knowledge.

oshizo2 wrote:

Okay I would like ro know what i s a good base strength actually hit monsters in say the abyss. I have 21 so far was thinking of stopping at 22. Mind you I'm looking to be able to hit in order to deliver damage from other feats.

Depends on your classes, BAB, equipment and feats. 40+ AB probably, though I seem to remember getting by with around 38 or so.

[quote="Scimiter"]I'm looking to rebuild Kichirou right now. Anyone got a really good SD build I can borrow? For the record Axl says /she's/ no good with builds and she's the one that /I/ ask for build help <3

So if you got a good one I'll need it level for level, feat for feat and rank for rank even so I don't screw it up ^^

He is currently:

Human
10/14/6 SD/rouge/ranger
Dual shortswords
All top tier SD only gear from the academy

Base stats:
15
22
14
10
12
10

Rendered legible. - Ed.

Okay my build "gasp" is going to be

18 cleric
2 bard
10 rdd
Been around for a long time "rebuilding". I am a cleric of tiamat. Oh fyi I didn't look in any build thread it just seemed most logical to me. I'm using a whip as the delivery for my damage. I need to know if 22 base is good enough to hit players/monsters to deliver th dmg. I have to take into consideration that being a tiamat cleric I will get into pvp though I'm not big on it personally. I have in the past been rp'd into pvp so taking that into the fold of the build. Thanks.

No help from me. Not refining another cleric/bard/rdd on the server.

I'm planning to fix up Erik's build. Right now hes a Sorcerer Fighter Ranger. Trying to make some sort of spellswordish build. But it didn't turn out so great.

I want to start completely over with him, still keeping the fact that he's a Melee Sorcerer. I don't care how cheesy the end comes out, but I'd like him to be good at melee with decent spells as back up.

Mahtan Tasadur wrote:

I'm planning to fix up Erik's build. Right now hes a Sorcerer Fighter Ranger. Trying to make some sort of spellswordish build. But it didn't turn out so great.

I want to start completely over with him, still keeping the fact that he's a Melee Sorcerer. I don't care how cheesy the end comes out, but I'd like him to be good at melee with decent spells as back up.

*cough*

29sorc/1pally

If I was going to do that I'd put rogue in there for Evasion, Tumble and UMD. 29/1 isn't that good.

All I know is most people say you need a lot of mage lvls to be effective and everything else detracts from that.

28/1/1 is better. save points for uberlicious tumbledump.

Hello, quick question!

Shifter, no monk. Have the option of going for Undead, Golem, or Outsider. Which is preferable, for what, and why?

- SacredOak

With the new shifter fixes they all are good for certain cases. . . so depending on the need which is better at the time

oshizo2 wrote:

Okay my build "gasp" is going to be

18 cleric
2 bard
10 rdd
Been around for a long time "rebuilding". I am a cleric of tiamat. Oh fyi I didn't look in any build thread it just seemed most logical to me. I'm using a whip as the delivery for my damage. I need to know if 22 base is good enough to hit players/monsters to deliver th dmg. I have to take into consideration that being a tiamat cleric I will get into pvp though I'm not big on it personally. I have in the past been rp'd into pvp so taking that into the fold of the build. Thanks.

Prob better off going 24 clr, 2 bard, 4RDD and focusing on str.

I was looking for some building advice on my kobold rogue, particularly dealing with epic feat choices. He's by no means a power-build... and he's not really intended to be a tough fighter, even if he is a good shot with his crossbow. Regardless... here's what I had planned, currently level 16.
Starting Stats: 12/16/12/14/8/14 (8/18/12/14/8/14)
30 Rogue. (I realize the 30th rogue level does nothing for me, but I can't see an RP justification for my character taking levels in anything else. Not that I'm likely to get there any time soon though...)
Feats:
1: Blind Fight
3: Pt Blank Shot
6: Rapid Reload
9: WF Light Crossbow
10*: Slippery Mind
12: IMPR Crit Light Crossbow
13*: IMPR Evasion
15: Weapon Finesse
16*: Defensive Roll
18: Toughness
19*: Skill mastery? (I know Crippler strike would likely be better, but it makes less sense RPwise and it doesn't work with ranged weapons.)
21: G-Dex 1
24: Armor Skin
24*: Epic Dodge
27: EWF Lightcrossbow
28*: Blinding Speed? (I haven't seen any haste items on the server, even so... I'm wondering if I should substitute this with something else.)
30: Epic Prowess
Skills: (The lack of discipline is intentional)
Open Lock
Disarm Trap
Search
Hide
Move Silently
Pick Pocket
Listen
Spot
Tumble
Use Magic Device

Comments? Suggestions? I'm mostly wondering if I should take blinding speed or not, but I'm open to suggestions elsewhere as well.

I'd personally ditch Skill Mastery, and juggle things around to give you a dose of Improved Sneak Attack, somehow. That's just me.

Edit: Actually, on second thought, I dig skill mastery. Ditch Blinding Speed, which is rather aptly abbreviated 'BS', and put Improved Sneak Attack there.

What Sakkran said. Also I would probably switch Toughness and Epic Prowess out for a +2 Fort and a +4 Will, respectively. This adds a bit of survivability and makes Slippery Mind all the more effective. But it's not mandatory nor will everyone agree with me.

Another choice pre-epic is Called Shot, because it works with ranged weapons and it's beautiful. It stacks each hit, and it can slow down your opponent to a crawl.

If you are a ranged bugger take Called Shot. Trust me. Watching critters slowed to a crawl as they come running for you and you slowly fill them up like a pincushion is mighty satisfying. Plus it helps party members who are in the near death circle, hit the chaser with a called shot leg and give your pal a chance.

Epic Will and Slippery Mind is a nice combo like xordae said.

Please ditch Listen or Pickpocket and take Set Trap with Skill Mastery. Setting Epic Traps anytime you want can be nice, combat or no.

feycourtier wrote:

Ok..been wondering this for a while..people going on about RP builds vs char Builds...

I myself was a complete novice when i first met Amia*misty eyes*

But I have learnt scince then[even if it isint how too search/spellcheck]

And I detest being the leech!

So my question is!..Has anyone on Amia ever had a character from 1..too somewhere up there..by only pressing rcommended?

If so ..how did it turn out?

(obviously I dont mean initial race/class choice)[but if you did ..cool!]

Original Lila. Don't do it. DON'T.

Also, I'm thinking of manking a new char.. for rp reasons I want to go.. Bard, Ranger and.. maybe AA.. But I have zero Idea how to make this good.

Dark wrote:

Also, I'm thinking of manking a new char.. for rp reasons I want to go.. Bard, Ranger and.. maybe AA.. But I have zero Idea how to make this good.

anything above 20 bard is good, just snag lasting inspiration and max your primary skills and you will not have a weak character. Be it STR (not advised for an archer though), Dex or Cha heavy.

Then it just depends on how many levels of each other class you want.
Ranger important for the pet (6 levels) or is 1 level enough?
AA important or not?

Pet is important, yes, AA not so much.

Cant go wrong with AA really. Any level taken in it increases your ranged effectiveness.

Working on a halfling Rouge/Shadow dancer with epic dodge.

Question is: should I take SD 6 with 4 extra Rogue levels (and 2d6 extra sneak dmg), or take SD 10 with 4 fewer Rogue levels?

I had a SD 6 build before, but wondering if the extra 4 levels get gear that's a lot better, and wondering if the lvl 10 shade lord summons is that much better than the lvl 6 shade (it was worthless). Can the shade lord survive long enough be useful?

So I decided to make a half-orc barbarian, so far he's just level 3 and I've taken power attack and cleave. I'd like to not screw the build up, so any pointers on playing a barbarian is are welcome. I'd like for him to remain mostly Barb, but I'm open to a bit of multi-classing. Starting stats are

Str=19
dex=14
con=14
wis=8
int=10
cha=7

Mahtan Tasadur wrote:

I'm planning to fix up Erik's build. Right now hes a Sorcerer Fighter Ranger. Trying to make some sort of spellswordish build. But it didn't turn out so great.

I want to start completely over with him, still keeping the fact that he's a Melee Sorcerer. I don't care how cheesy the end comes out, but I'd like him to be good at melee with decent spells as back up.

Melee Wizards -> Bards

It's only > because it's a wizard, not because it's melee. Arcane casters win by default.

Ahem... I messed up melee wizard = bard.. my bad

Hmmm... I'm considering rolling up a monk that beats people down with his walking stick (AKA Quarter Staff)... Considering going for Dev-Crit. I realize going with the walking stick is already crippling the build but is there anyway to make this at least playable?

Virginia_is_for_lovers wrote:

So I decided to make a half-orc barbarian, so far he's just level 3 and I've taken power attack and cleave. I'd like to not screw the build up, so any pointers on playing a barbarian is are welcome. I'd like for him to remain mostly Barb, but I'm open to a bit of multi-classing. Starting stats are

Str=19
dex=14
con=14
wis=8
int=10
cha=7

I may not be a build genie like some of the guys here but I'd say level barb straight to 20 to maintain a full BAB, then grab 4 levels of fighter to get Weapon Spec and Epic Weapon Spec (make sure to take the 4th level of fighter on a level you get an epic feat (24, 27, 30)) and grab 2 levels of rogue for a tumble dump and evasion. Using that as a base you're free to go for one (or more) of the epic rages or go for Dev Crit... you could probably do both but you'd be a bit tight on feats.

Guxx wrote:

Hmmm... I'm considering rolling up a monk that beats people down with his walking stick (AKA Quarter Staff)... Considering going for Dev-Crit. I realize going with the walking stick is already crippling the build but is there anyway to make this at least playable?

start by making him a fighter/wm instead?

I have a horrible problem.

:!:

(First issue)

Aparently (This is what i found out at levl 29)

Monks do -NOT- get enought BasicAttackBonus to max their attacks per round.

A pure monk has 5 in total(6 with flurry, 7 with Circle kick)

A monk that has 4 levels of Fighter/Paladin/Blackguard/Ranger "PRE" Epic, will have 6 attacks per round(7 with flurry, and 8 with circle kick)

:!:

(second issue)

My monk has 34 skillpoints invested in parry. Is it any good later? My dexbonus gives me about 55+Parry.

Parry is a defensive measure which sacrifices your attacks in order to prevent incoming blows. As such, it's great if you have a lot of things beating on you and have someone else around to mop them up. But it isn't ever going to be 100% effective. You can't parry ranged attacks, for example, but then the beauty of being a monk is that if you have a good enough Reflex save you will deflect those most of the time.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Parry

It's a broken skill.

The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mark III

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