At first I didn’t like the system there as well. After reading allot of this thread though I have since changed my mind. Sure its harder to navigate and will take some time but that is the point after all. Once the players there start to explore more and learn the system then they will have the great advantage that they should have over those who do not live there. It will take some time and dedicated exploring the areas and knowing what paths lead to other paths, those who RP and live there will learn it much faster then those who do not. I can see allot of RP coming from this in time, surfacers attempting to learn this labyrinth on expeditions to do so knowing that at anytime or any wrong turn could lead them smack into the Drow or any of the other races that live and know it.
It truly is a gift if you look at it more long term and the RP potential it gives. I think I will start on learning that system right away, a goblin should know his way around down there to survive.
Time to go and finish reading the thread.
(edited after reading more)
I recall it as well, however, I do not think The Great Equalizer meant to insult or put down all the work in this but rather just giving his concerns and frustrations he has experienced about it. He raised a question or two as well as got this thread started, I do not know about anyone else here but because of that it has shed more light , no pun intended, on the underdark for me.
He is right that it is hard if not impossible to visualize the whole UD with points of references like north, south, east and west. I would suggest possible markers on the ends like (n), (s), (e), (w) but actually think its better not to have those points of references. Think about it The Great Equalizer, Isn’t that one of the fears surfacers should have? Getting lost down there because of the lack of those references?
P.P. I would like to see perhaps a few hidden ways between the underdark A and underdark B. Connecting the two could bring together the two servers even more as well as some more flow to B
Disco pointed out that you weren't being constructive about the UD
Technically he said EVER, I was just returning his ludicrous statement with one of my on.
Technically I (and he) said "in his recollection"
And to that I said that I was "not convinced of his ability to be constructive".
Which is more or less the same thing, so I would prefer not to argue the semantics of it.
Well, I frankly don't care what you are convinced of but when you make a public statement about my attitude you should at least take the effort to check your claim. It's the Drow way, I am told. You make a false claim, it gets disproved, you get flogged.
I also find it hilarious that you call for "not arguing about sematics" while you clearly look for the little details whan you react to my "EVER". You could have guessed from the context I was talking about the UD. That doesn't change the fact that you are simply wrong when it comes to your argument about the whatever summon/spell it was comment, of course. Everybody knows I don't do those, so why don't you?
Anyway, the bottom-line is that I'll look at the poll for the area names and that you'll have to take the effort to make a map yourself or simply stay in Ultrinnan. Fine by me.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
Hmmm, that would explain why it never conjugates to lil then ... I don't think either translator uses it. Cheers Disco. The Eli one should help me with the words I couldn't translate.
_________________ 2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
My major response is 'flavour'. Not being able to understand the names, even though one is able to recognise them, adds an area of mystery, and the language chosen certainly adds a sinister feel. Furthermore, when combined with the dark passages of the UD conjure in my mind a deep labyrinthine network of tunnels and passages. It certainly helps with the atmosphere.
Beyond that, it encourages exploring - you don't know what you're going to find. 'Troll Caves' means you are obviously going to be fighting trolls, but Linddil Naktolen? This adds to the atmosphere of danger also, which I think is good for an explorer ... you never know when you step in an area whether you will cleave through the enemies or be torn apart. In this respect, you're left with all the choices of a real person - find out from someone else, do an exhaustive search through the lexicon of another language or see for yourself with some friends.
The only problem I've seen so far is the possibility of getting the names mixed up (which is also understandable for the place names in another language), but most of this is due to many things beginning with L', which means 'the'.
_________________ 2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
TormakSaber wrote:
Could the people who are pro-Drow expound on why they are Pro-Drow names for the areas, in regards to the concerns brought up in the topic?
I feel that we as a playerbase arent apretiating the work the Developers are giving, and they thought it would add a nice flavour, and it did, in my opinion.
Also, As somebody wrote - they got lost in the Underdark. And i -love- that fact, it makes you carefull, it adds atmosphere.
And third - Its a lot of work that could be put elsewhere. On more fun topics! Jobbugs, or ...something.
Could the people who are pro-Drow expound on why they are Pro-Drow names for the areas, in regards to the concerns brought up in the topic?
Because, I feel, you play there for a while, and you read the translator, and it all just makes sense after a few days of logging in and exploring.
Its only confusing at first, it gets better after a day or two and then it grows on you.
It looks great when people in your OOC party go "where's that place?"
It sure gives it the exotic flavour and locals get to know the place and strangers to it, really -do- feel like its completely foreign and scary to them, especially surfacers, who have a random transit activated on each transition. The names add to that confusion. If you say, Underdark, Upper West, they can then work out where they are. We don't want that, we want them to feel confused down there and get seriously lost. To surfacer's it needs to be the Blunderdark. To locals, it needs to feel like a home.
Once critical mass of players is reached down there and it develops its own culture, people will no longer log in, get lost down there because its new, shiney and scary and they just wanted to go to Wiltun and weren't aware of the change according to racial starting zones.
The trouble is now, you log in, there's like 3 people on the whole of B-mia, so they think, heck! I need to go to Wiltun to interact with the other 2 people on this lonely server with no one here. Then they get trapped because they don't spend any time in L'Obsul usually.
Over time, that won't be so bad. It won't happen as much once player numbers return to normal levels again and there's around 3 to 6 players who make the effort to be down there, for others when they go, so they can initiate RP and the newby to the area thinks its not so dead and doesn't rush off to Wiltun anymore.
_________________ Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess
Okay, so I remember reading in a thread/topic somewhere, sometime on this forum, that Disco is completely opposed to any languages on the server that are not english, and not just RL languages but FR languages too. To eliminate the 'gibberish' being spammed onto a persons screen, was perhaps the reason.
If this recollection is incorrect someone will speak up I'm sure.
I am quite fond at the idea of language token type things.
Also, I reckon, the majority of true underdark beings need not leave said underdark and head to the surface. Non-reasons really apart from the lack of players during certain timezones.
I might be wrong, usually am, but I care not, these are but a few of my thoughts.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005 Location: Nice city, good beer
I prefer English names for locations. I find they have more athmosphere to them. Names like Underport, Underriver, Underpassage, Neverwinter or Candlekeep fuel my imagination more than Ux'dril. Dunno why.
Okay, so I remember reading in a thread/topic somewhere, sometime on this forum, that Disco is completely opposed to any languages on the server that are not english, and not just RL languages but FR languages too. To eliminate the 'gibberish' being spammed onto a persons screen, was perhaps the reason.
If this recollection is incorrect someone will speak up I'm sure.
That's quite correct, but also somewhat irrelevant to the area names. The area names follow a recognisable pattern and there's relatively few of them to memorise. It's a bit like using drow words in titles of NPCs, for example. A reasonable use of gibberish for the sake of immersion, without making it impossible to understand. (it indeed isn't impossible by any standards to follow the naming pattern, but it is certainly more difficult than following the naming pattern of many other areas. whether that difficulty is a positive challenge or too much of a challenge is the question.)
Now, if we were talking of making the NPC convos, for example, in drow (or they had been made already)... then Disco's comments on gibberish languages might be more relevant. NPC convos would be an unreasonable amount of gibberish to understand and memorise (because they wouldn't even follow a pattern due to more words being used), as are language systems (which don't even have a pattern in most cases).
The point is, that even the languages aren't all black or white and good or bad, but there's many shades of gray to play with to find a balance between playability, challenge and immersion.
Joined: 29 Aug 2006 Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
I'd like to apologize for some of my comments, I have the Flu and (although that isn't a great excuse for my actions) looking back on some of my post I concede that I was even more of a (censored) then usual. So I hope that at some point you'll be able to forgive me.
I've never been, but as far as I know, Underdark-B was made for everyone. Not just drow, even though they are in the majority. Svirfneblin, Deurgar, Kobolds, etcetera.
Given that, I cant for the life of me work out why a Svirfneblin, or anyone else but Drow, would ever use drow words. I thought everyone hated their guts.
Translate to Undercommon (English) would be my choice. I think its the only thing that makes sense for everyone down there to use when theyre talking about placenames.
Joined: 17 Feb 2007 Location: Patrollink ze borderz! Wo ist das Hahn!?
The Great Equalizer wrote:
I'd like to apologize for some of my comments, I have the Flu and (although that isn't a great excuse for my actions) looking back on some of my post I concede that I was even more of a (censored) then usual. So I hope that at some point you'll be able to forgive me.
NEVER!
_________________ 'Ze Cock! Ze Cock ist shtill aut der!! Kapitulation feiern - NEIN DANKE!'
I've never been, but as far as I know, Underdark-B was made for everyone. Not just drow, even though they are in the majority. Svirfneblin, Deurgar, Kobolds, etcetera.
Given that, I cant for the life of me work out why a Svirfneblin, or anyone else but Drow, would ever use drow words. I thought everyone hated their guts.
Translate to Undercommon (English) would be my choice. I think its the only thing that makes sense for everyone down there to use when theyre talking about placenames.
Well since the Drow most likely would be the dominate race there then they would have been the ones to have named all these places. Perhaps a few of the locations could be in another language, on the more remote parts of the UD that Drow do not travel to much.
I've never been, but as far as I know, Underdark-B was made for everyone. Not just drow, even though they are in the majority. Svirfneblin, Deurgar, Kobolds, etcetera.
Given that, I cant for the life of me work out why a Svirfneblin, or anyone else but Drow, would ever use drow words. I thought everyone hated their guts.
Translate to Undercommon (English) would be my choice. I think its the only thing that makes sense for everyone down there to use when theyre talking about placenames.
Well since the Drow most likely would be the dominate race there then they would have been the ones to have named all these places. Perhaps a few of the locations could be in another language, on the more remote parts of the UD that Drow do not travel to much.
Actually that's the beauty of L'Obsul, its NOT any one race that dominates. Although for a time, it was the Duergar who were most dominant there but there's only a handful of Bloodbeards that log in these days...sadly...
In fact, even amongst the Drow, they're all quite different in L'Obsul. Quite a number don't worship Lloth and Ghaunadaur and Kiriansalee are worshipped by many Drow there; a few do worship Lloth but aren't overly strict and devout like in Ultrinnan and so forth. Its a very different culture and Drow don't dominate L'Obsul, all races get a say in the Hall of Negotiations and trade and profit and production depend upon all the races there so that prevents internal war.
L'Obsul is designed to be quite an unusual city from the Norm of FR in the underdark. For instance, Svirfneblin and Duergar would never work together normally, but here, they do. Llothites and Ghaunadaurians would be at each other's throats, but in L'Obsul, they tolerate each other inside the city (barely) but actively war against each other outside the neutral city. If however, we followed the Dogma of Deep Duerra, Ghaunadaur or lloth to the letter, the city would be in constant civil war and that wouldn't be much fun OOC for people as they log in, they'd get ganked and ganged up upon. Sooo, in L'Obsul, we try and accommodate by keeping a thin veil of truce.
_________________ Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess
I'd like to apologize for some of my comments, I have the Flu and (although that isn't a great excuse for my actions) looking back on some of my post I concede that I was even more of a (censored) then usual. So I hope that at some point you'll be able to forgive me.
No problem, I should have taken Tormak's example in this thread and been a bit nicer and on topic myself.
I've never been, but as far as I know, Underdark-B was made for everyone. Not just drow, even though they are in the majority. Svirfneblin, Deurgar, Kobolds, etcetera.
Given that, I cant for the life of me work out why a Svirfneblin, or anyone else but Drow, would ever use drow words. I thought everyone hated their guts.
Translate to Undercommon (English) would be my choice. I think its the only thing that makes sense for everyone down there to use when theyre talking about placenames.
That's my biggest issue with the area names as well (besides the confusion problem), to be honest. I am rather torn between the "O yay, more trolls here" and the "WTF do they only serve Drow" arguments.
I don't care much about the paradox of me don't liking the use of fake drow as a PC language (as mentioned before: if you use REAL Drow... you're a DUDE in my eyes) and the use of it in area names. I am not very much into an overarching server ideology, but all the more in not promoting cliquery.
Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Dark Immolation wrote:
Mr Mago wrote:
I should make a drow char and check out the new UD on Amia Abroad, to see if it's really that difficult to navigate.
I'll save you the time. It's not. At least not if you think about it. As far as I've seen, it's just not all in a straight line , so people get a little upset when trying to run north for 3 screens doesn't get them to somewhere they figure it should.
That said, I've had the pleasure of having the whole UD B to myself one night for exploring. I enjoyed it.
I agree, you should make an underdark pc and explore UD-B, but for the purpose of Dark Immo's last line (The one I highlighted blue).
In fact, everyone should. Go look at the pretty pretty areas Lord Disco and I made!!!
_________________ Role with the Punches...
Elan: A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everyone knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!
I have just started to explore there and love the areas looks, I do however think there should be more added to them, quests, secretes, something, I am not sure what though. From what I have seen most the areas there are designed for hunting mainly, Are you all playing on adding things to them?
In fact, everyone should. Go look at the pretty pretty areas Lord Disco and I made!!!
The last time I did, it was a mass of empty caverns with nothing.
The crystal caverns are awesome I'll take a look again in a few months when there are actually real things to look out for.
I find the new underdark to be a little too... scattered, I tried navagating my way around and ended up losing an hour since I got lost, but that my be becuase of my clumsy nature. Personally, I had no real problem with the Underdark as it was, but the new neutral underdark city does sound nice with a bit more polishing which I am sure can be handled.
I would like to see the city in 'one' area, or two, make it more closely packed to make the area look more bustling and less desloate. Also, I dislike too many loading screens which seems to be what is happening when travelling around the underdark. Just my opinion.
I vote for the use of English names, the drow ones just make my head hurt, also, can we remove the whole "You have travelled for this amount of time in the tunnels", Amia's time is screwed up as it is without time paradoxes coming along.
_________________
Kerath Zau'tar - Underdark commander and thief - Scheming and lurking.
Derryn de'Drenise - Watcher of Helm - Scolder of witches and wizards
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
Drakos_Vek wrote:
"You have travelled for this amount of time in the tunnels", Amia's time is screwed up as it is without time paradoxes coming along.
They're useful if you're trying to make a map or gauge distance though. They also inform you that it wasn't just walking through that cave, that you actually walked for a large amount of time to get to where you are, making it feel bigger.
_________________ 2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
"You have travelled for this amount of time in the tunnels", Amia's time is screwed up as it is without time paradoxes coming along.
They're useful if you're trying to make a map or gauge distance though. They also inform you that it wasn't just walking through that cave, that you actually walked for a large amount of time to get to where you are, making it feel bigger.
If you want to make it feel like you walked thus far, than make the player walk thus far. It's too much like fast-travel from Oblivion, if you simply skip a large cavern becuase 'its dull'.
Also, it is opening the door for multiple problems to occur, for example, is Chump No1 was being chased by ChumpNo2 and No1 runs through the instance, No2 has a perfectly eligible excuse to be annoyed becuase he could of caught up to him in that vast distance between the current area and the safe neutral city.
_________________
Kerath Zau'tar - Underdark commander and thief - Scheming and lurking.
Derryn de'Drenise - Watcher of Helm - Scolder of witches and wizards
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
Drakos_Vek wrote:
If you want to make it feel like you walked thus far, than make the player walk thus far. It's too much like fast-travel from Oblivion, if you simply skip a large cavern becuase 'its dull'.
Some of those trips take an hour. I don't want to sit here for an hour waiting to get to the next interesting place.
Drakos_Vek wrote:
Also, it is opening the door for multiple problems to occur, for example, is Chump No1 was being chased by ChumpNo2 and No1 runs through the instance, No2 has a perfectly eligible excuse to be annoyed becuase he could of caught up to him in that vast distance between the current area and the safe neutral city.
Since you can't initiate dialogue in combat, if you're close enough to have that problem, they can't travel into the area anyway.
_________________ 2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
If you want to make it feel like you walked thus far, than make the player walk thus far. It's too much like fast-travel from Oblivion, if you simply skip a large cavern becuase 'its dull'.
Some of those trips take an hour. I don't want to sit here for an hour waiting to get to the next interesting place.
Most of the places the caverns lead to are propably as dull as the tunnels themselves! Besides, there is no reason the tunnels could not be made interesting themselves, Amia has had a habit of lacking large dull places.
Yurell wrote:
Drakos_Vek wrote:
Also, it is opening the door for multiple problems to occur, for example, is Chump No1 was being chased by ChumpNo2 and No1 runs through the instance, No2 has a perfectly eligible excuse to be annoyed becuase he could of caught up to him in that vast distance between the current area and the safe neutral city.
Since you can't initiate dialogue in combat, if you're close enough to have that problem, they can't travel into the area anyway.
True, although I can think of plenty other reasons why someone would be running away without combat turn on. Also, the whole dialogue box removes the option to run away, I mean, I would it so running away is not easy, but I would not want the option removed entirely.[/quote]
_________________
Kerath Zau'tar - Underdark commander and thief - Scheming and lurking.
Derryn de'Drenise - Watcher of Helm - Scolder of witches and wizards
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
Drakos_Vek wrote:
Yurell wrote:
Drakos_Vek wrote:
If you want to make it feel like you walked thus far, than make the player walk thus far. It's too much like fast-travel from Oblivion, if you simply skip a large cavern becuase 'its dull'.
Some of those trips take an hour. I don't want to sit here for an hour waiting to get to the next interesting place.
Most of the places the caverns lead to are propably as dull as the tunnels themselves! Besides, there is no reason the tunnels could not be made interesting themselves, Amia has had a habit of lacking large dull places.
Would this not be why they've been left out? All the interesting areas have been included, and more can be added as they're 'discovered' ... why include areas that are only space fillers, and make it even more difficult to add areas later?
Edit: Missed the close quote tag
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يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
Last edited by Yurell on Thu, Nov 05 2009, 7:13 AM, edited 1 time in total.
All the interesting areas have been included, and more can be added as they're 'discovered' ... why include areas that are only space fillers, and make it even more difficult to add areas later?
Yups. Makes it easier if factions want to move around, too.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Yups, I did that as a kind of management tool. It also fits how the UD works quite well. It's not a flat pancake like the surface, but a 3D maze of little interconnected bubbles in a matrix of rock. Try to imagine building a Swiss cheese by connecting yellow sheets. Doesn't work.
Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Dev Disco wrote:
Yups, I did that as a kind of management tool. It also fits how the UD works quite well. It's not a flat pancake like the surface, but a 3D maze of little interconnected bubbles in a matrix of rock. Try to imagine building a Swiss cheese by connecting yellow sheets. Doesn't work.
Hence the "depth" indicators in the combat log, if anyone pays attention and happens to have noticed. One of my favourite little "flavour" touches that Lord Chicken added to UD-B.
_________________ Role with the Punches...
Elan: A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everyone knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!
It's Underdark. It's fabulous. Underdark is supposed to be special so keep the drow names. Underdark is supposed to be a maze so keep the system of transitions that change depending on what route you take. It's so fun to have all these areas that I've never sen before to explore and try to make a mental map of it, learning drow while I do it. Thank you everyone for all the fun you bring. To all who complains, Underdark is not supposed to be a copy of the surface. The way it's created now makes Underdark special in a quite easy way. Learn it, love it and have fun while you try to find your ways around.
I suggested an Underdark Explorer item to added, which gives you translations of the names or some other navigating aid, once you've explored enough areas. Or something. I can't remember what I actually suggested, as I was somewhat intoxicated then, but I guess Disco will remember it.
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
TormakSaber wrote:
My question to that is; "why should it become a requirement to learn a fantasy language in order to enjoy the Underdark on B?"
But the poll's been answered at this point, so.
I guess that I am getting old. I do not mind learning drow words if they are used as a title, as single words and not whole sentences.
But the moment when more than one word is used and kind of needs to be a requirement to understand, in this case, where you want to go and stuff, when you need these words in order to be able to play - even if you are playing a drow - is the moment I get a bit disappointed.
I guess, however, that if you are meaning to play and enjoy the UD-B, you will get used with the names either way. But, maybe (just maybe!), it might be intimidating to new players that are playing without an astounding knowledge of lore.
The poll was already decided, but it would have been good if the drow words were kept, but there could be at least a word in english to make some sort of reference - not to tell you what you will find in that area, but merely to aid memorization.
Anyway!
Seems people are still able to have fun, regardless. And this is what matters.
_________________ BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
I suggested an Underdark Explorer item to added, which gives you translations of the names or some other navigating aid, once you've explored enough areas. Or something. I can't remember what I actually suggested, as I was somewhat intoxicated then, but I guess Disco will remember it.
There is a book down there that gives all translations and short descriptions of each pocket. Every UD race can read it.
Does it give automatic translations of the area name when you enter the area, if you possess the book? That's the kind of item I was thinking about. Could also unlock the maps for the areas automatically.
Well, why would you need the book anyway? The opening of maps seems a bit too cheesy to me, and just giving the descriptions of the areas at the transition convo will do the name trick as well.
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
555444333 wrote:
Can we get a L'Obsul forum? If I know there are folk who are doing stuff there, I'm more inclined to go!
You know, you can always start something yourself.
_________________ BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
TormakSaber wrote:
My question to that is; "why should it become a requirement to learn a fantasy language in order to enjoy the Underdark on B?"
My answer is "you don't". They are place names, proper nouns. You don't need to know what they mean - I don't care if Murrumbidgee is Aboriginal for God-knows-what, all I need to know is where it is, to give a real life example.
_________________ 2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
It doesn't really work well with human psyche, though. I live in a neighbourhood where all the streets have Indonesian island names. I do know where the Bali street is, and the Atjeh street. Those names ring a bell from history lessons. The more obscure islands... well, I live here for 14 years now and I still have trouble remembering the name of the street below my balcony (mumbojumbostreet, I call it). It just doesn't connect to anything else in my brain, so I forget.
That said, I doubt any of you needs to know some native dialect to remember the approximate location of Chicago. The USA is filled with quite famous places that have names that are utter gibberish if you don't understand Spanish, French, Dutch, etc, and nobody complains.
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