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Mr Mago wrote:

So we're basically (censored).

If only someone would have told me that 4 years ago.

Note, I'm not saying it's impossible, or you're boned. -I- just can't work out how to make it work. There's likely quite a few ways that I simply haven't thought of.

Drop it Frey. Don't even start it.

You know what's truly sad? Everyone praised the Banites for their previous exemplarary roleplay, about a year ago. What's changed? Nothing the Banites are doing is any different... so what's changed exactly? What are they doing now that somehow "does not fit with the Spirit of Amia", that they weren't doing a year back???

Have we suddenly had an influx of social junkies or a change of heart on the DM team?

Ron speaks for himself and himself only, as always.

TormakSaber wrote:

Ron speaks for himself and himself only, as always.

Yus. As I reiterated quite a few times in my posts saying "Personal Opinion".

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

He knows a direct confrontation with good won't win, so he intelligently understands the necessity of long term planning.

Ooh, that was the approach I was using back when I was leading the Vhaeraunite faction.

Either I was a bad leader, bad schemer, dunno... but I think the most we accomplished was moving the Idol from Underport to... a place that does not have it anymore. >_>;;

I sent a couple of plots that got positive signalling from the DMs, but in the end I could not move on because of lack of personnel. And despite one promising IC alliance (I think the involved players know what I am talking about), Rizzen was wary of trusting them and I, as a player, was stupidly proud when I realized I would need to fully depend on another faction to make my own faction work.

:cry:

Which is why I gave up the faction. Though the main reason was IC/OOC inter-factional conflicts, not so much problems with making plots work. I could barely keep the house tidy, so to speak. No matter how good the plots could be, I had difficulty trying to make it work with the low amount of players.

Same with my other, supposedly, evil PC. I was running something with Auron, along with Tranny. But the lack of players to enter the conflict made all the RP... a waste of time.

I could have made it work if I had a NPC patrol or something get in conflict with Auron to kick start it. But I hate having to use of NPCs and I know very well how much the staff prefers PCs than NPCs.

EDIT! Bloody hells, two pages already? I have to sleep folks. T_T

soundofastream wrote:

If not, tough biscuits. Currently, South Amia Forest is a PvP haven. Its disgruntled the Grovite players I admit, although most have upped sticks and left due to a DM event that didn't go their way.

My own character has agreed to limit patrols in south amia forest, but instead enforces things further north. I'm doing this to give the social junkies some space. I don't know why they can't simply do their social junkie bit INSIDE Grove grounds...that's what the story area is for.

The Grove weren't the disgruntled group, it was the Glade. The Glade left, the Grove peeps are just never around.

To be fair. There's a few OOC problems with the Grove that is actually out of player control. We found out about a few overflow rules that were still being followed from older incarnations of the DM Team.

..Rules that sorta dug the grave and made it tricky to keep a faction, well, factional.

That said. I sorta feel like the only Grovie around again!

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

Mago, that's bollocks and I'm not afraid to say that to your face. First of all, Bane's methods are not "bullying", you've warped that to justify your own personal perception of what a Banite should be.

"Preffering to plot and scheme, Bane rarely appears to act in a direct manner. His ultimate goal is to eventually control all of Faerûn. When summoned though, he has a dark, rather shadowy appearance with a resemblance of dark armor and his tell-tale jeweled dark gauntlet. He emanates an aura of vast power and cruel intelligence."

The forgottenrealms wikia isn't the only reference to Banite lore, you know. It's actually a rather incomplete and inprecise source, in my personal opinion.

Quote:

DOGMA (II):
The clergy members of Bane's church believed that those who crossed the Dark One met their dooms earlier and more harshly than those who foolishly worshiped other deities than Bane and still inevitably fell before the Church of Bane. All priests of Bane were ordered to submit to the word of Bane as uttered by Banite clergy members who outranked them and to "spread the Dark Fear" of Bane.

Bane whispered to initiates in their dreams: "Serve no one but me. Fear me always - and make others fear me even more than you do. The Black Hand always strikes down those who stand against it in the end. Defy me and die - or in your death find loyalty, for I shall compel it. Submit to my will, since true power can only be gained through service to me. It is the doom of those unguided by me to let power spill through their hands."

:!:

DAY-TO-DAY ACTIVITIES::
Bane desired to rule the world so that all of Faerun would know his tyranny. His clergy members were chanrged with the task of rising to power in every realm and if necessary leading a band, city-state, or kingdom to war to conquer its neighbors in order to bring ever more territory under the sway of the Black Hand of Bane. Hatred, strife, and destruction were to be spread - but under clear duress and control, not unbridled chaos. Domination was preferred to debauchery, and carefully limited discord to stability. Cruelty, torture, and mayhem were tactily encouraged, but those caught at such activites had to pay the price unless they had served Bane so well by spreading fear that none dared speak or act against them. Superior Banite clergy members had to be obeyed at all times and in all things. The faithful were to work subtly and patiently - but tirelessly - to bring members of the faith to power in every guild, village, town, court, war band, fellowship, realm, and society. All rules of the church had to be followed to the utmost, but the rules of others were no rules at all.

Quote:

Motivation and goals

The church's goals are simple--convert all to the worship of Bane, and destroy those who do not convert. It is presumed that some exceptions would be made for servants of allied deities (such as Loviatar, Malar, Mask, and Talona). In the meantime, people should be made to fear Bane so that they invoke his name in fear and to ward him off, which gives him some small power.

The church of Bane uses force and persuasion to control territory, whether by marching armies against reticent towns or by bribing bored nobles with slaves, riches, and offers of power. With it's close ties to the Zhentarim the church has been able to focus on the subtler methods of conversion, leaving the more direct methods to the Black Network.

[...]

Enemies

Because it wishes to subvert and destroy all other faiths, the church of Bane is opposed by nearly every other church in Faerun (some of the weaker deities hope that by serving him they may survive). The rivalries with the churches of Helm, Illmater, Lathander, Mystra, Ohgma, Torm, and Tyr are particularly strong, and Banite clerics take great pains to kill clerics of these faiths in gruesome ways, leaving them to be discovered by unsuspecting innocents.

Cyric is Bane's greatest divine foe, for the Dark Sun wishes to reclaim the portions of his portfolio taken by Xvim, which were then passed to the new Bane. Bane has similar feelings for Cyric, and would love to crush the upstart under his heel, siezing his lost portfolios in return. Banites enjoy branding Cyricist corpses and altars with the word "heretic" as a warning to other followers of the Dark Sun.

The Banites are also opposed by the Harpers, the Lords' Alliance, the Emerald Enclave, and other groups that respect local governments and the freedom of people to make decisions about their lives.

Those are taken from the Banite forum, in the "Bane - Dogma, and other basic information. Zhentarim too!"

If you want the direct sources to those, you'll have to ask Eoweniel and DukeOfWaffles, since they provided the texts.

But it shows that a Banite approach can be both hidden and secret as well as direct and confronting.

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

I'll stand by Frey's accomplishments as proof positive that evil, especially one as diabolical as Bane guiding him, sure did do quite a bit of Banes work, and brought quite a bit of fear and tyranny. Frey and Gurth are the ones who got the Banites their temple.. you know, that temple no one can get INTO without a portal rod.

Actually. The entire faction assisted in the construction of the temple.

Frey contacted the Zhentarim to provide slave workpower in order to construct the cave and temple. Gurth provided the materials through (insert an organization here that shouldn't be exposed OOCly). Darthion was part of the actual RP that involved monitoring and being held responsible for the construction.

Gurth, Darthion and Aeriel payed the 18 million gp which the temple costed to construct. Frey wasn't part of that.

I know the history of this faction, Frey, seeing how I founded the Church of Bane 4 years ago.

Don't try to throw any bollocks in my direction.

Though, I should add, that Frey has done plenty in favour of the Black Hand.

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

What has the Banites done, under current leadership?

Nailed varmits to trees.

:roll:

You wouldn't and shouldn't know, seeing how you're no longer part of the faction.

And considering the fact that I pretty much only see you "RP'ing" on the forum, rather than in game (FYI, I've been playing in all time zones during the past month(s), for up to 14+ hours per day on occassion). And it's in-game we do our business.

Not in anonymous posts in the PC Notices Forum.

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

The Banite faction, however, was filled with people that all want to be the "MOST EVILIST EVAH", and thought the coolest way to inspire fear was to kidnap someone and torture them in the privacy of a temple no one can get INTO without a portal rod.

:roll:

Eh.

Kidnapping and torturing people. Isn't that what Banites do? Isn't that what most evil factions do?

The Temple of Bane has had the same factional locks as every other faction out there. It's been just as accessable.

Thinking about it, Tarkuul is far more difficult to infiltrate than the Banite Temple.

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

So the bottom line? Bane doesn't rule by backing up the Imperceptor that fled the Banite temple when it was under direct attack just so he wouldn't loose, Bane tries to succeed by "Preffering to plot and scheme", and thus furthur his goals behind the scenes because he's NOT STUPID.

Now you're just being a completely retarded fucking asshole cunt.

To start with. Where was Frey during the attack? Where was Frey -after- the attack. Right... he was safe-keeping a heretic (Arturus) who had betrayed his fellow Banites at the day of the attack.

And wtf do you know of Darth's motives?

It was a 50 vs 7. Out of those 7, Ray and Darthion were the only epic characters.

At the time of the attack, the server was lagging beyond recognition. It took me 3 minutes to run from one side of the temple to the exit, due to the lag.

They came for Darthion, primarily. Do a search on the forum, and read some of the PC stories of the time.

Their intended victory was capturing Darthion. When they discovered that Darthion had managed to escape a guaranteed arse-raping, they deemed it reasonable to at least try to cave in the temple entrance as compensation.

During the next week, half the server was chasing after Darthion, with one of the highest bounties inofficially being put on his head that I've heard of until this day.

The following weeks after that, Darthion redeemed himself by hunting down and killing 93% of the 45+ level 30 characters who participated in the attack.

Again, you're being a complete fucking ass.

But I always knew that about you. Good that you're showing colours in public as well.

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

He knows a direct confrontation with good won't win, so he intelligently understands the necessity of long term planning.

It's just too bad none if it actually panned out

Regards,

Banites have always had long term plans and short term plans.

Having just one out of the two doesn't cut it.

But it seems that having both doesn't cut it either.

And with that, I refer to my previous posts.

soundofastream wrote:

You know what's truly sad? Everyone praised the Banites for their previous exemplarary roleplay, about a year ago. What's changed? Nothing the Banites are doing is any different... so what's changed exactly? What are they doing now that somehow "does not fit with the Spirit of Amia", that they weren't doing a year back???

Have we suddenly had an influx of social junkies or a change of heart on the DM team?

14 months ago, I was leading the Banites.

After my departure, Frey and Metalien took over.

But my approach to Banite RP has been classified as complete shit, apparently. So I am bound to ask the same question as you, Sound.

Mr Mago wrote:

But my approach to Banite RP has been classified as complete (censored), apparently.

Other than the sitch which happened based on OOC a while back - something that's since been fixed and A-OK - I can't work out what you might be referring to.

I don't think your approach to it is complete BS, or close to. I just think it's impossible to do while getting the outcome you want.

WonWon wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

But my approach to Banite RP has been classified as complete (censored), apparently.

Other than the sitch which happened based on OOC a while back - something that's since been fixed and A-OK - I can't work out what you might be referring to.

I don't think your approach to it is complete BS, or close to. I just think it's impossible to do while getting the outcome you want.

Wasn't really refering to you, Ron, with that statement.

And I agree with the impossibility of it as well.

We've been aware of that for a long time, yet we've kept going thinking that we did actually contributed to the server, and enriched everyone else's gaming experience on Amia.

I think the IC and OOC guidelines which I wrote a loooong time ago on the Banite Forum even mentions the impossibility of it.

Mr Mago wrote:

OOC Guidelines

So... you've chosen to play a follower of Bane. A ruthless tyrant, embodiement of evil and destroyer of all innocence and good left in the world.

That's all dandy. In a PnP game playing the villain often comes with huge benefits/reward, but equal amounts of risks.

On Amia however, there's neither.

Much of what you do in-game, won't have a persistent effect on the isle. Those characters who are sacrificed, never seem to stay dead. The paladin you just killed moments ago, is now seen standing outside of the temple of Waukeen, gigglig away with whomever is standing beside him.

As the darkest of all imagineable villains on Amia, there's little we can do which otherwise would seem reasonable. This is a big thing. You have to accept that, roll with the punches, and do your best to enjoy your time with it anyway.

Our role on the server is to play the villains. The characters other characters love to hate. The ones who are held responsible for murders, kidnappings and other vile activities.

We play a crucial part of the community. The bad guys the good guys can oppose. Our ambition is not self-gain on an OOC level, but to ensure that the RP enviroment remains rich and entertaining.

We cause conflict. A lot of it. Hence why it's important, on an OOC level, to befriend the other players, in order to keep the conflict IC, and not turn it into OOC grief.

=================================================================

>> Here are a couple of general OOC pointers to keep in mind while playing your Banite;

=================================================================

-

# Remember that you are the one playing the bad guy. The bad guy which most people will emotionally frown upon on an OOC level, due to modern societies ethics and morale. Accept it, bite through it, and keep on RP'ing your role.

-

# ALWAYS be nice and helpful to other players on an OOC level. When you're playing the evil guy who just kidnapped "Bob's" child, to sacrifice it to Bane, it's even more important to be nice on an OOC level to the guy who's characters is harmed due to your RP.

-

# Learn to accept defeat. No matter what powerbuild you play, or however hard you try to avoid PvP, you're bound to suffer a defeat at one point during your characters progression. It's inevitable.

When this happens, put away your OOC pride and remember... it's just a game.

-

# We do not play to win.

Even though the RP of following Bane is highly focused around success or defeat, this does not apply to Amia as a whole. Always remember, that you're playing a game. A game, where the goal is not the win in the end, but to enjoy the ride.

It is the RP in the progression of achieving our IC goals that should be fun and rewarding, not the absolute need of actually achieving them.

-

# Abide by the rules and respect your fellow players.

We're all here to have fun. Not to make each other miserable while playing a game. The rules are there for a reason. To allow players to interract and contribute to each others gaming experience under equal and juste terms of gameplay.

-

# This is not our server, and our preferences alone won't change it.

While playing on Amia, you're taking part of a fantasy setting which is shared by many, not just you and whatever group you're part of. Even though we would all like to see the Banite teachings overwhelm the isle, there are many other players who have similar ambitions yet in entirely different causes, which must be respected and kept in mind.

-

# Do not metagame nor frustrate yourself should anyone else happen to do it.

There are several types of players on Amia. Some value the rules in higher regards than others, and some do not care at all. Either way, always make sure that your RP isn't dependant on extreme secrecy, where the risk of someone metagaming your character would ruin your entire role playing experience on Amia. Rather than pointing fingers in OOC disputes, should it happen, build up your RP in such a way that it instead is unlikely to happen.

-

# Make sure to develop your character outside of the Banite faction as well.

The members of the faction aren't always online, and at times, the RP might become stagnat due to various reasons. Therefore it's important to develop your character outside the faction as well. Let your character progress through RP by interracting with other characters as well. Focusing entirely on the RP within the faction will make you feel alienated once your fellow faction members are temporarily unavaible.

-

# Stay active.

It lies within the Amian norm to have several characters, yet those characters who are inactive during an extended period of time, without making an actual statement that they will be absent, will be demoted and ultimately removed from the faction.

The faction is kept alive by the continous contribution of all members. You can't rely on just a few players to keep the faction alive, as you have to make a contribution yourself, as well.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Oct 27 2009, 7:47 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I will make this very simple, as I will find the time to reply properly when I am back from the university.

I will not have the Eternal Order feel the bite even more over other set of peaceful factions, if they choose to lash back. You are suggesting that if people dont settle their things over diplomatic channels, they should invoke harsher penalties upon themselves, while those they harrass, bully or wish to cleanse will not.

The Black Caravan plot did demonstrate the EO accecpted the loss of their faction base willingly after an ic conflict. I see no reason why that is not an example for accepting penalties.

So where does it leave us off? The Eternal Order cant do much when looking at the rules which extremely protect those who are in the defensive. They should now become politicians, or keep this way of not being really effective and enter an agreement they can be harmed but others cant?

So ultimately we should all get along and play politicians, or accept we are confrontational and get rules that will get us removed more easily, to either tame us or destroy us.

You must be pulling my leg, honestly.

Edit: How about peaceful factions feeling the bite of aggressive factions? Nah, that be just lame?

honerstly..i dont see a problem, i would like this post to be about inactive factions instead who just stand around all day and do nothing, i think that the agressive factions addd flavor to the game, i like that the banites are freaking scary, and that i really tend to avoid them all i can, the EO that lays pressure on the necromancers and sinners, and despite what people think we tend to avoid pvp, we just follow the dogma of kelemvor to the letter.
I would like to see more action from other factions(it dosnt have to be aggressive, just do something, i see few posts on religius content from say the now giant lathander faction, hells i just found out that the shadowflames where a faction, until the event i just thought it was a bunch of people with the same last name)..i find that the horsemen are practically gone from the scene (atleast i havnt seen them) and tarkuul, hells ive never ever seen frey ic'ly with any of my chars, and i get the feeling he is hiding in tarkuul....probably a good call anyway but its sad that we hear so little from such aplace as tarkuul, it seems like a cool place.

anyway, i might just have missed alot of things.

Frey is like Dr. Claw from inspector gadget, always pulling the strings in the background but you never see his face. He does a great job but many of his minions have left he server, moved onto other characters, whatever.

Such is the way of things. One of the trouble with secret factions is, people tend to love the RP but being a shadowy figure is a lonely task. You just can't come out and state publicly: "I'm a Harper, or Zhent, or Sharran, or Ghaunaduarian, or Cult of the Dragon, or Eldreth Veluuthra" (you think the sun elves on Amia are bad? you aint seen nothing till you meet one of these elves!) or whatever semi-secretive faction.

But not all evil factions are secretive, schemers and plotters. Some are outright in your face evil.

Like a lot of other issues in Amia, aggressive factions like the Banites are up against player mentality. It is one of those things that DMs cannot change without a draconian application of brute and Stalinistic force, and one that is not likely to change organically - in this instance because the change itself is contrary to the naturally self-serving motivations of the playerbase.

It is the downside to having a popular, open door server. The playerbase is too broad, too varied in opinion, and ultimately too selfish to even consider thinking in terms of "community" rather than in terms of "individual".

Yossarin wrote:

Like a lot of other issues in Amia, aggressive factions like the Banites are up against player mentality. It is one of those things that DMs cannot change without a draconian application of brute and Stalinistic force, and one that is not likely to change organically - in this instance because the change itself is contrary to the naturally self-serving motivations of the playerbase.

It is the downside to having a popular, open door server. The playerbase is too broad, too varied in opinion, and ultimately too selfish to even consider thinking in terms of "community" rather than in terms of "individual".

This (though I am not quite as pessimistic as Yossi). Sometimes we're asked to do miracles to "save" the server, when there's absolutely nothing we could do, except the heavy-handed measures. And those would leave a lot of people crying.

A lot easier for the community to work in concert to change attitudes, seriously.

I've read over the entirety of this thread to date and admittedly have begun to come to the same conclusion as the rest, in spite of being the one to bring this up:

Also in conclusion, tempting as it was to earnestly make offers to Phearnun and Mago that should in either case respectively and in a reasonable conflict capture/kill/do something else permanent to a character that it sticks, that I would indeed make it stick and more likely then not end the character however that would not be nearly as viable, as I would have to potentially ask too much in return, as I admit I am more then perhaps mildly self-serving.

The only point this leaves me with, is what do I wish to do next?

The most probable answer is continue to find fun where I can on Amia and abroad.

I would still like to hear some others' point of view on this topic for more academic reasons, but if it grows to be too out of control I encourage the DMs to lock it promptly.

Isn't the mix what makes Amia interesting. I think it would be a worse server without the Tiefling chicks in Cordor or "agressive factions." Both works well and generates a good mix of RP.
I think the DMs and developers found a good compromise to set up the module such that you can avoid whatever RP you are not interested in. Amia south is a good example. If people really would be so annoyed by the "agressive factions" showing up and spoiling their social RP, they would just move inside completely safe areas. I think people go there because "things" happen there such as fights with Banites. The later OOC bitching is just part of the game.

"Interesting" doesn't mean "good".

Well not interesting is certainly not good.

But to be more on topic:

What is the advantage of more consequences to agressive actions? Clearly, consequences lead to progress in a plot line. This is also the case of "agressive" actions that should have consequences on the victims.

I think there should be no automatism in consequences. Each player should just keep in mind, that he can not only advance a plotline by achieving a victory, but also by playing out some consequences of loosing. If a murdered person stays dead for a while, it gives his friend a chance to inverstigate who is the murderer. Basically, we are a RP server and the stories we create are what we enjoy. Thus, everyone should works towards interesting storylines.

Point B: Not everyone finds the same thing "interesting", or even worth their time. If they don't like it, they will not log in, and will ignore it until it goes away, unless a DM shoves it down their throat and they're forced to react.

This is never a pretty thing for either side.

Quote:

I think the DMs and developers found a good compromise to set up the module such that you can avoid whatever RP you are not interested in.

Oh god, I hope not. Did we foster that? We need to change that, right now. You shouldn't be able to avoid a damn thing just because you OOCly dislike it, because this is the world your character lives in and no one should give a rat's ass about their feelings OOCly towards Jim Bob's Player, because they're too busy interacting ICly with Eric Bigsword the Fighter.

There is alway a risk when being in the aggresive faction.
For example sometimes when Cyricists and me are out for blood it happens that we run in someone tough so we become a victim instead of that person.

We had our temple stormed more than once. Amians are using the advantage of DM's lack of interest to give us basic needs (such as the doors on our temple). So there is IMO alot of risk when being in a aggresive faction.

Phearnun wrote:

The Black Caravan plot did demonstrate the EO accecpted the loss of their faction base willingly after an ic conflict. I see no reason why that is not an example for accepting penalties.

Difference here is that the Black Caravan was a DM Thing. Doesn't demonstrate et-al how you would or will handle a retaliation from Player Events or Actions, beyond the typical Escalation Game (since every time you die, you get back up and retaliate moreso)

Players simply haven't got the mechanical ability to do what a Dev can, which is blow you up effectively, and I see very very very very few factions who are willing to say "We lost against another player faction. Here. Take our faction area, would you please, DM Team?"

Phearnun wrote:

How about peaceful factions feeling the bite of aggressive factions? Nah, that be just lame?

I can reply to the rest of your entire post by simply replying to this.

Peaceful Factions don't cause problems for Aggressive Factions
Aggressive Factions case problems for Peaceful Factions

Thus why Aggressive Factions (whom are negatively impacting another party directly) should feel the burn.

This of course does not apply to Peaceful Factions who like to hit the Do Not Press button repeatedly, and purposefully, thusly earning the ire of the Aggressive Faction. By all technicality, the roles swap, since the 'peaceful' faction is baiting the aggressors.

WonWon wrote:

Phearnun wrote:

The Black Caravan plot did demonstrate the EO accecpted the loss of their faction base willingly after an ic conflict. I see no reason why that is not an example for accepting penalties.

Difference here is that the Black Caravan was a DM Thing. Doesn't demonstrate et-al how you would or will handle a retaliation from Player Events or Actions, beyond the typical Escalation Game (since every time you die, you get back up and retaliate moreso)

Players simply haven't got the mechanical ability to do what a Dev can, which is blow you up effectively, and I see very very very very few factions who are willing to say "We lost against another player faction. Here. Take our faction area, would you please, DM Team?"

Phearnun wrote:

How about peaceful factions feeling the bite of aggressive factions? Nah, that be just lame?

I can reply to the rest of your entire post by simply replying to this.

Peaceful Factions don't cause problems for Aggressive Factions
Aggressive Factions case problems for Peaceful Factions

Thus why Aggressive Factions (whom are negatively impacting another party directly) should feel the burn.

This of course does not apply to Peaceful Factions who like to hit the Do Not Press button repeatedly, and purposefully, thusly earning the ire of the Aggressive Faction. By all technicality, the roles swap, since the 'peaceful' faction is baiting the aggressors.

It shows how we will handle a retaliation from a force which could not force us but asked if it could do harm, -even- if we found the whole event to be one sided, mostly bollocks (especially degrading how some of our npcs where played out) and unenjoyable as a whole.

And no, peaceful factions can cause problems for aggressive factions. If there is a peaceful faction creating undead then it is as much forcing to act, when we know, as it is us forcing them to act when we enforce the faction creed. At least that is true for the Eternal Order. We are not causing problems to Bendir Dale, or Wharftown, or Winya?

And it's that attitude that had the plot outright cancelled afterwards when y'all decided to try blow 'em up again

Gogo Bitchfests.

To get back to On Topic and Seriousness;

There's points where it simply doesn't apply. If I made a faction that responded to the word 'Feck' as an outright insult and crime against All That Rightly Exists, and thusly started causing hell for any faction using said term, I can't exactly call them the instigator.

Being reasonable is a tricky thing.

WonWon wrote:

And it's that attitude that had the plot outright cancelled afterwards when y'all decided to try blow 'em up again

Gogo Bitchfests.

To get back to On Topic and Seriousness;

There's points where it simply doesn't apply. If I made a faction that responded to the word 'Feck' as an outright insult and crime against All That Rightly Exists, and thusly started causing hell for any faction using said term, I can't exactly call them the instigator.

Being reasonable is a tricky thing.

We didnt blow them up again, or try to. The encounter became hostile out of the moment because of what they were doing at that said moment. Sadly that happened, as I hoped it was the last we would hear of it. The event got cancelled as you offered a chance to get out this time, because in my opinion it utterly sucked. We already know you dont enjoy the rp of the EO while others enjoy it. Then just make events for someone else and leave us alone, as I can say, it would be nice for us too.

Now we are far away, making sure ooc to try to avoid you with ic measures and lets hope for the best, ey? Then we wont have a level 25 kelly pally run out of fear from an encounter. If you want to discuss this further, lets gladly go to pms.

And if you summon an undead before a kelly or deal with known necromancers, supporting them 10secs away from the faction ground of a group clearly hating them, in my opinion they are the instigator. We are not talking about the word feck, common sense as you called it.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Who really cares? Honestly?

One of the things I have noticed about amia is that when PvP/battles happen, people get upset. When they dont happen, people dont log in. You look at characters new to the server, so many of them are Billy Badasses. They want 'something' to happen. Anything, really. I think it was a mistake making cordor south no-pvp for the simple reason that while people complain about pvp, some part of them seems to gravitate towards it and cordor south was often the first taste players got of it when they logged in which I believe would cause more to stay than leave.

In regards to the winyan elements, I have noticed that when we are causing trouble for drow in the forest certain drow that we are causing trouble for seem to log into the server more than when we are not. I have always found it very odd. Personally, I think you have the issue the precise wrong way around really. More aggressive factions are needed, not less aggressive behaviour.

Re: Phearnun

To loosely quote a friend;

Ultramarines are cool, but they belong in Warhammer.

Y'all failed to take the outs, repeatedly, and got pwned when you didn't even attempt to find a tangible way out of it. Why was the out offered?

...Because earnestly I got tired of the BS OOC in both your forums and your party chat.

Plots aren't meant to be a simple "Bad guy appears. Kill them. Free Epic/DC/Plot Loot!". If they were that easy and straight forward every time, we'd may as well file ourselves under Action. I know it's a very hard concept to understand for many, esp the Powerbuilder Crowd, but sometimes you actually need to think with your skull instead of your muscle.

That said, the only reason I bring it up is because the entire thing was mentioned in a false light to put yourselves on a pedestal, which sorta was BS. I earnestly don't enjoy pwning people at all through the BC, but if you insist on smacking your skull against a brick wall in a futile attempt to break it down; I'm not going to put a pillow in the way to save you from terminal brain damage.

Yes, and apparently factions who are not politicians that attempt to get along with everyone dont belong on amia either. Its easy to give your character all the insights -you- want to see, to see all sides of the issue, to be tolerant, thats not the Eternal Order.

The Eternal Order got oliberated as they are not politicians that do compromises but are a military faction which attempts to enforce most of their wishes through threats, investigations, violence and judging. Clearly that makes us to Ultramarines of the Warhammer world because we dont play like in the Sims or like the United Nations. Their means failed against the BC, we accepted the loss.

Go do some research on the EO and the Warhammer 40k world if you set them on the same level. We have a few small quotes, we have a bit of their style. If you go deeper you will see that most of the Warhammer 40k world of the Imperium actually comes from the Catholic Inquisition, the Crusaders and the medieval Catholic Church, the main places I like to use for adding spice to the way of the Kellies. I am sure you will find a lot more resembelances there. Clearly the Khem rp must be like Warhammer too, yea!

We do not act like Ultramarines, its a very idiotic thing to say, but it sounds nice to attempt to discreding the faction. Though if you dislike us so much its odd that you seem you have such a strong urge to interact with us, placing the BC right next to our faction grounds knowing we would most likely stumble upon them near instantly and then have them trade on the ruins of our temple, the only fixed place on the amian isle we still visited. Lets hope a kelly gets pissed at sees that, I am sure he will act like a politician and not be infuriated.

It seems it is a qualification for new suggested rules to hieghten the dangers or a unbeatable force (except if you do not do what your characters would do ic) if you are not on hugging terms with every other group or my, even be a fanatically devoted church to a set of ideals, be it banites, kelemvorites or the simmilar. Won, honestly, stay away from the EO as you are clearly biast and next time you piss against my leg, lets do it in pms to avoid such publically, alright?

Last edited by Khylaria on Tue, Oct 27 2009, 13:53 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Phaernun wrote:

Then we wont have a level 25 kelly pally run out of fear from an encounter.

To be fair, the NPCs are under DM control and judgement, and there's a few factors which may have had some influence in the actions of the NPCs, such as -

Perhaps that paladin thought of a few things some of the more notable (i.e. publicly known, or perhaps "notorious") members of the church seem to either have (-in this paladin's opinion-) forgotten, or blatantly disregarded about their deity, and saw the error of his ways. The following could be this very paladins thoughts on matters of faith:

Main Entry on Kelemvor from the Sourcebooks wrote:

Kelemvor's clerics sometimes multiclass as necromancers, rangers, or doomguides using their knowledge to hunt down and destroy undead

DOGMA OF KELEMVOR wrote:

Recognize that death is part of life. It is not an ending but a beginning, not a punishment but a necessity. Death is an orderly process without deceit, concealment, and randomness. Help others die with dignity at their appointed time and no sooner. Speak against those that would artificially prolong their life beyond natural limits, such as the undead. Do honor to the dead, for their strivings in life brought Faerûn to where it is now. Forgetting them is to forget where we are now, and why. Let no human in all Faerûn die a natural death without one of Kelemvor's clerics at her side.

deity

He

DISCLAIMER: This is just my view, as an outsider looking in. I'm not trying to discredit the EO faction in any way. However, I -am- saying there might be a difference in how some of the Kelemvorite NPCs view their deity than the current actions of the Amian-based church reflects. But, it's your faction. Run it as you see fit.

When did that stuff happened? Months ago? Years ago? Come on, you can not cultivate such conflicts over such long periods of time and bring them up again and again with a passion as if it has happened yesterday.

ClockworkRed wrote:

When did that stuff happened? Months ago? Years ago? Come on, you can not cultivate such conflicts over such long periods of time and bring them up again and again with a passion as if it has happened yesterday.

Months methinks. Certainly not years.

I'll respond to your post with a very simple statement.

Why did they set up at the EO Ruins? Well, two reasons, but they're both very simple;

I choose my locations based on a simple d100 roll. That's reason 1. List of areas, d100 roll decides, simple as that.

Reason 2. Trade Roads come up twice. Intersections or primary paths/roads come up thrice. Frequently IC Populated areas four times. (township areas come up as fourth, but are always directly outside)

Due to the location of the Salandran Temple, it's proximity to Winya, The Shrine, and Kohlingen, and the fact it's already known for merchants being in the area (note the dwarven merchant and his oxen) - Benwick Hollow: Northern Graveyard thusly comes up three times. Could come up four, but I needed to shave a number off to fit the Crystal Caves into the list (because that area was BEGGING for a merchant. Such a setup!)

You can withhold your paranoid OOC fantasies that the world is out to get you - or maybe just I am - however it won't change the simple fact that honestly, it's simply a matter of how the cards played out. Roll Them Dice, as they say.

That all said, once again, only reason I bring any of this up is because... you did. You wanted to call out the BC as a reason for your brilliance in handling conflicts. I said that, well, it doesn't count - the discussion is Faction vs Faction, not Faction vs Plot, to which the response was snipes about my event (Which happened, as Clockwork pointed out... quite a while ago)

I reserve the right to defend something I spent hours working on, if it's unbased garbage.

Answer to your statement there Lutra is in the post above yours. Must've been entered while you were typing.

The paladin in question ran from a small attack on the temple. You can argue much, but a person who is trained for many years to protect the clergy and temple in time of an attack most likely will not just run. Voice his concern, gladly, but not really make him look like a cordorian militia. <.<

--

When I speak of necromancers, I mean what we as a faction classified as dark necromancers, meaning those who break the laws of Kelemvor. We do have necromancers in our faction, but they dont create undead. Should not forgett to specify that. Necromancy is hardly banned, just the practice that goes against his laws.

--

The Black Caravan dealt with a person they knew was a dark necromancer. They attempted to arrest him, the Black Caravan protected their customer, and the Eternal Order would not hand over a person who in their believe did the right thing. In the mind of the majority, it would have meant to go against their believes. Pride had little bearing, perhaps more slightly blind zeal.

I think that the EO had every right to be pissed on their first encounter with the BC. They saw a follower of Falazure, who was actually a mass murderer outside their temple, so they wanted o remove him. The BC shouldn't have been involved in the conflict, but they had to.

In my opinion a fundamental problem with factions when it comes to pride issues and pvp is that people have the wrong mindset and approach to faction goals.

They might be doing everything right IC, but then a big fat OOC problem comes along and wrecks it all, and letting that happen won't help the RP get better (Seems to be the mood of Mago's statements).

Ron seems to be saying that because Amia is the way it is there's no point playing an aggressive faction - its bound to fail in most instances.

I don't claim to know all the answers on this one, but my suggestion would be that faction leaders collaborate more OOC and actually plan a loose story or course of events before it happens, and perhaps choose a loser in the end (my gut feeling is that the bad guys should always lose in the end).

Does anyone else think this could help? It would definitely stop the back and forth pvp stompings which is often the depth of faction conflicts. Think of how much more you could do with another faction leader if it was partially orchestrated behind the scenes?

Well, perhaps it would be too risky, giving away your plans and stuff, but I think if two faction leaders had a good relationship, they could pull it off, and steer both their factions through a really cool storyboard of events, and without any OOC dramas.

Anyway, just a thought.

WonWon wrote:

Phearnun wrote:

How about peaceful factions feeling the bite of aggressive factions? Nah, that be just lame?

I can reply to the rest of your entire post by simply replying to this.

Peaceful Factions don't cause problems for Aggressive Factions
Aggressive Factions case problems for Peaceful Factions

Thus why Aggressive Factions (whom are negatively impacting another party directly) should feel the burn.

This of course does not apply to Peaceful Factions who like to hit the Do Not Press button repeatedly, and purposefully, thusly earning the ire of the Aggressive Faction. By all technicality, the roles swap, since the 'peaceful' faction is baiting the aggressors.

What if all the aggressive factions are doing is RP'ing their faction / lore / dogma as it should be RP'ed?

I really don't see how that could -ever- be discouraged.

What you're basically saying, Ron, is that we should favour those who unprovoked get picked on by other factions.

That we should favour those characters that ICly can be RP'ed as pacifists.

RP is RP. No matter if it swings either way.

I have zero problem et-al with the IC. I expected the BC get into conflict, 'cause remember, this plot started when everyone was crying for more plots with intrigue and the like.

Earnestly, the IC only phases me when I need to tweak it via off-camera third-parties (better known as Deus Ex Machina). Otherwise, whether winning or losing, the involvement is the thing that I enjoy.

I really don't see anything wrong with aggressive factions. They can spice up RP a good bit... however, there comes a time when aggression begins to border on griefing.

Let's use the Winyans in Amia Forest for an example. They're there setting up roadblocks and what have you to try and keep the big bad drow out of the Amia Forest. Which is perfectly fine and legit. The problem comes in when Winyan players get PvP happy over drow being there. It's one thing to be a jerk IC, but if another player sends an OOC tell saying that they're not comfortable with what's going on or whatever, it should be respected.

I'm not speaking of a specific event and I'm only using the Winyans and the Amia Forest as an example because they were the first ones to jump to mind. The ideal behind the example is what I'm going for. There is a fine line that must be walked between IC aggression and OOC hostility.

Mr Mago wrote:

What if all the aggressive factions are doing is RP'ing their faction / lore / dogma as it should be RP'ed?

I really don't see how that could -ever- be discouraged.

What you're basically saying, Ron, is that we should favour those who unprovoked get picked on by other factions.

That we should favour those characters that ICly can be RP'ed as pacifists.

RP is RP. No matter if it swings either way.

Gameplay is for Fun, no matter who's playing.

Amia caters to a wide array, and thus my OOC perspective of it is that the person making problems for the other is the one who needs to be prepared to be slapped. I don't actually enjoy the pacifistic RP (as you probably know yourself through dealing with Eary enough), and enjoy a good bit of conflict, intrigue, combat and the 'Less Easy Road'.

However, I'm a firm believer that the players who don't enjoy this sort of RP shouldn't be drug down that same 'Less Easy Road' kicking and screaming. They simply don't enjoy that sort of RP, don't like being involved in it, and so forth.

I rarely see the Social Junkies going out and ripping the carpet out from under the H&S Crew to spark them into some supposedly 'ripe and awesome' conflict RP. Simply because, uh... They're the Peaceful faction, not the Aggressive one, thus they aren't likely to be aggressive.

I agree that conflict must exist, however it needs to be done tactfully, and with respect to other people's play styles. A simple OOC nudge in a tell can do all this for you. Hell. Nudge a faction leader OOCly, just get their go-ahead. If the rest of the faction on either side has a problem with it, they can take it to their bosses.

I don't think conflict RP is bad by any means. If I've given that impression, then I need to work on my skills in regards to portraying a point. I just firmly believe that on an OOC level, you should be willing to bend a bit to let everyone have fun. You'd know yourself, Mago, that if the party you're going against isn't really "Into it" - it rarely ends up pretty on either side.

In regards to the Banites in particular - they're just one of the very few conflict oriented styles that I, personally, individually, and singularly don't think can really thrive on Amia. Not because it's got so much conflict, but because of the machinations of how it's attempted on Amia.

If there was a deity that specifically worked at turning adventurers into undead slaves, I'd say the same about that sort of deity or faction simply not working on Amia, since you sorta can't turn other players into undead.

My entire argument is in relation to Players, Play-Styles, OOC Behaviours, and general 'Fun' for those involved. The IC can often be tweaked oh so subtly as to save someone from the hassle of dealing with a situatoin that either party - on an OOC level - will not enjoy.

Yeah, I understand what you're trying to say. And I'm kind of sharing those opinions.

Which brings us back to square 1, as far as the Banites go at least.

Crap.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

The thing is that most of the 'pacifist' players arent really pacifists, they just dont really want PvP and part of that is because they will lose. If you want to play a pacifist, go for it. However, that does not include spitting at players, playing races that are obviously evil and dangerous such as drow/tieflings/etc. Once you choose to play a drow that responds to any orders with spitting or ignoring someone, you are asking for it in the FR setting.

The secondary problem is that many characters that 'are' actually evil get OOC annoyed when you demand things of them. For instance, a big bad necromancer that was telling my character that he would make him into his undead slave in cordor will suddenly be a kitten in amia forest and get OOC angry when you attack him. I have a collection of OOC complaints from people that made threats in cordor and when I attacked them elsewhere they were OOC annoyed saying "You cant just pvp me!". Dont make the threats, dont throw around heavy insults, obey basic commands and your character will be fine. Its just RP, the reason people get into pvp is that they dont know how to back down. They want to play a strong character without ever needing to put their money where there mouth is, its just bad luck when you get smack downed.

In regards to the banites, I dont necessarily agree that is true. Characters talk angrily about darthion all the time, so success.

EO rock by the way! More EO checkpoints! More conflict RP, go go!

There is another issue at work with aggressive groups, in relation to the original post. Because Winya isn't really a 'faction,' it isn't a large group of like-minded people seeking the same goal. When some of them become aggressive and seeking pvp, it makes things very hard on the 'social junkies' who don't want to provoke conflict. This is especially a problem because people outside winya view the city as a whole group. It makes it very hard to rp at all. It makes it especially hard when the pvp is provoked whether the other members or the leadership agree or not.

I know there's a balance of advantages and disadvantages here to consider, between the new rp created by the pvp and conflicts, and the amount of rpers that have left winya because they cant rp and/or get left behind. It's just one more thing to consider for the original post.

Is this thread anything more than kvetching at this point? Do any of you really believe you can single-handedly or even collectively change the mindset and attitude of the playerbase by ringing a muted klaxon in a tiny thread in a tiny forum?

Wyjyn wrote:

They want to play a strong character without ever needing to put their money where there mouth is, its just bad luck when you get smack downed.

[quote=Limp Bizkiz]Your mouth is writing checks that your ass can't cash.[/quote]

Sums it up. But yup. Agree with that.

At this point it's starting to look like more of the same being repeated Yossarin.

There's one or two opinions I am curious on at this point, but I can pursue them via PMs. At this point I leave the thread's locking to DM discretion after saying this last thing.

Vaelmith Starshower was kind of a funny case, he was more meant to be a ramblin' free wheelin' gunslinger sort of fellow, save without the gun.

It took an adorable drow female and a cause worth fighting for to get him back into something greater then himself and not just for coin. That's why he's fighting as part of the Weave Knights.

He could well have gone the other way and just kept on being a ramblin' free wheelin' sorta fella. The odds are that'd have more quickly gotten old and or unintresting to play.

Er... I'm coming in a bit late in this I guess.

I would like to say that Banite RP the few times I've incountered it has been quite enjoyable, and I mostly play goodies or neurtrals on Amia.

That said, Banites in politics has is loaded with opertunity for doable RP IMO. As I've found it, the most frightening thing about evil isn't the kind that's wild, frantic, and abjectly random (sorry chaotic evils). You at least have peace of mind from that when you're in some establishment, or at least the illusion that some random horrible act is less likely to be enacted upon you there. The real frightening thing about evil the kind that's instituted, a malicious government or something, where something horrible happening to you is not merely hoped against, but assured should you do something displeasing. The kind of evil that wrings its hands back in the shadows.

Think random mugging at knifepoint vs. something like a military regime's Stormtroopers that crash into you house in the middle of the night because they heard you say something dissenting, have you "tried" for treason, and next day, you're just gone.

But fear is subjective I guess. Anyway, I think Bane's dogma is still quite viable in Amia, even without the "slay every goody pally that I see from 50 yards". There's still the "I remember your infidelity today and bring back it ten times back upon you some later date." In a world where you can get into the fight of your life, die, and be peachy keen in a matter of minutes sipping tea and talking about in a pub, making your enemy wait seems a lot more effective in terms of inspiring fear. Think about that nausiating feeling when your parents would send you to your room and you knew a belting/spanking was eminent.

All of that said, the only less than enjoyable instance I'd had with banites (note, I said banites and and not the banites) was an instance two probably 15+ PC's were camping the swamp and giving the old "Convert on this spot right here or die" ultimatum. And were not allowing the "out" of going back the other way. I don't think they were with the established faction, however, and it was many years ago.

So I don't wanna see any of this talk about Banites going away. At least not just yet. :wink:

Again, it's funny how I end up supporting evily, and don't play them. But then again, they do say people play games for escape from their real persona :twisted:

I'm just thinking, hidden evil really works wonders. Ghaundaurians, well, okay, we've shrunk considerably but we'll get back on our feet again, mix intrigue RP, with aggressive conversions and sacrifice RP.

But the best thing i love is when they put the smackdown on others, without ever having lifted a finger themselves. Our style has been traditionally, to pay others to do our dirty work. Whilst many have died at our hand directly, the more memorable smackdowns we've instigated have been via third parties. Whole cities have been affected, by our wicked hand...and no one suspects a thing...

Okay, someone has got to be our "blunt instrument", like the time we paid heavies to smack down the E.O. leadership. Money talks...numerous times we've had people capture others for us, delivered to us and we paid the merc's...

Most times, everyone, even the sacrificial victim, have had fun.

I think we'll attempt to bring us back and show the world once again, that Hidden Evil is fun

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