AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Request for lore, RP flavor suggestions and DM ruling

My guy Daniel was killed and I've left him dead for awhile while I have been away but he died without a patron deity so we did a little RP to keep him off the Wall as his soul was refusing to be called back. Reason known to those that know him. Anyway he was judged in Kelemvor's court and sent to the Wall but on the way there they were attacked by a demon raiding party and he was captured and pulled through one of their portals.

At that point kinda left him hanging there due to lack of lore. It was suggested that Kelemvor's guards would take sometime to retrieve him but the following lore questions come to mind:

Retrieve him from where? Where do those portals go when the demons take someone from the Wall? Baator? Abyss?

Is it, and for that matter Kelemvor's Court, considered physical planes?

Any lore about the process of death, the court, the Wall and the demon raids would be welcome. Keeping in mind I still wish to bring him back possibly.

On the topic of RP flavor I turn to the True Resurrection. Tormak has define the spell for me systemwise but I'm interested in comments at the RP of it and possible effects and side effects from it

Finally I am looking for a DM ruling on something that would have a impact on how the Rez came about. True Rez can use something as small as a hand or one good solid thought about the person. Depending on what group would bring him back there are two questions.

1. Can the thought be drawn from more then one person to the mind of the caster or does the caster him/herself have to have that memory? AKA have to have known the person?

2. On the topic of the cost of the spell. 25K worth of diamond dust. Daniel was provably taken from his home to his death in nothing but his shorts and carrying none of his gear save his rings and amulets. The rest of his things would have been left behind at their home in the possession of his wife. As such I would like to ask if it is permissible for her to have his inventory considered to be in her possession till he is raised. Including his gem collection that she would surely use towards the cost of the spell. I would suggest it as reasonable RP since he did not have it with him when he died.

With that I open it for input and discussion. Please keep flaming to a dull roar and preferably none at all

If demon raids took his soul, they've taken it to the abyss, and it's likely either been made into a... whatever the lowest rank demon is, or used as sustenance, or otherwise being tortured incredibly painfully in some manner or fashion. The portals would go to some layer of the Infinite Abyss.

Re 1 and 2:

1: I would think it would need to be the caster "unambigiously identifying the victim", as I explained to you in game. This doesn't even need to be memories. Something as simple as "Daniel Makie, Deceased *this day, this time*, Born in *X location* would suffice.

2: His collection of gems is worthless unless they're diamonds. Not diamond dust... diamonds.

Excellent points on where he is Tormak thank you. You are right you did point that out to me about the information used but thank you for reiterating it for me and finally he's got almost 60 diamonds on him that would now be in Arial's hands if DMs approved

I'm no DM, but I doubt this needs DM approval. Perma-killing is your choice so it doesn't matter really. Even if it's not okay by DM's to physically transfer the diamonds to your PC's wife, you can say they were transferred and simply trash them. Which is probably the way to go anyway.

He seems to want to True Ressurect his character, not perma-kill him though.

Rez in in the air right now. The questions directed at the DMs are due to the fact that they technically in conflict with the twinking/muleing rule but RPwise it is clear that his wife would have all his stuff. Always best to check on what you're not sure would fly

Quote:

True Ressurection
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 9
Casting Time: 10 minutes

This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method).

Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution points) or prepared spells.

You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.

Even true resurrection can’t restore to life a creature who has died of old age.

Material Component
A sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 25,000 gp.

As for the Diamonds: It is 10 Diamonds in Amia's selling system. Or was last time I checked.

Sylfwe wrote:

He seems to want to True Ressurect his character, not perma-kill him though.

I know? My point is, they can't -make- him stay perma-dead, it's his choice if he does or doesn't.

Scimiter wrote:

Excellent points on where he is Tormak thank you. You are right you did point that out to me about the information used but thank you for reiterating it for me and finally he's got almost 60 diamonds on him that would now be in Arial's hands if DMs approved

You probably don't need to ask for having the diamonds he had passed off... Diamonds can be found. Mhmm.

Or it could be that he wants to continue his RP and just wants to check to see if this little transfer is alright with the DMs as part of it?

Point and case. Thank you Yurell. Now are there any /RP/ suggestions or further lore?

TBH the situation you've placed yourself in is essentially permadeath. If Kelemvor has already judged your character and he's been sent to the wall, but was taken by demons, to my sketchy knowledge, he is "Dead".

AFAIK Kelemvor only judges people when "Their time is up", but I'm not entirely sure.

TormakSaber wrote:

AFAIK Kelemvor only judges people when "Their time is up", but I'm not entirely sure.

Correct.

Got source on that? Preferably not the DnD or FR wiki, they're sketchy these days with the 4e transitions.

I figure on that one he gets retrieved from the demons and ends up waiting in the Court again in that long line up for a appeal considering he got taken

I'm not quite sure Kelemvor works in Appeals, especially not for the Faithless. You're kinda screwed on that one. The downsides of being, well, Faithless.

Well as it stands right now he's not on the Wall so he can still answer a call if someone were to rez him.

Scimiter wrote:

Well as it stands right now he's not on the Wall so he can still answer a call if someone were to rez him.

I'm no DM, but from what I've read above.. he already got judged. No appeal, he was judged, sent to the Wall, and didn't make it. Rezz scrolls and the spells don't work if the God doesn't want them to, and I kinda don't think anyone is going to encroach on Big K's domain, in regards to the Dead.

TormakSaber wrote:

Got source on that? Preferably not the DnD or FR wiki, they're sketchy these days with the 4e transitions.

FR Campaign settings sourcebooks, IIRC. lemme see if I can access the PDF's from work.

Well good thing I'm not asking permission to bring him back. That right belongs to the player no matter what.

There are no appeals. If you are judged, you fall into either of the four following catergories:

I. The False are souls that committed dread crimes during their lifetimes. They have been judged by Kelemvor and are punished for all eternity when found guilty. Depending on the severity of the crime the punishment varies: from escorting visitors to the city to unspeakable tortures that would make the most malicious demon cringe.

II. The Faithless are those mortals who don't have a divine patron to speak for them. This could either be because they never worshiped one, it died, or simply that their god doesn't want them for some reason. Their fate is to be made part of the City wall in The City of Judgment on the Fugue Plane. Each soul is held together with a green mould from which no one who is part of the wall can break free. After a time, the souls dissolve to become a natural part of the plane itself.

III. Faithful, they have a divine patron to speak for them and are then brought to the realm of their lord.

IV. Pact with a devil. The being can also promise their soul to a baatezu, if this is not already the case, in the time he waits before judgement. This lets them escape the horrors of being judged faithless or false, and the outcome depends what they managed to agree on with the infernal being.

Once you are in one of those four catergories, you are in them. A faithless will remain in the wall. A false will suffer his punishment for all eternity. A person who made a pact with a devil is bound to it. People in the wall cant be raised, simply because they are faithless.

What happens if you're part of category I and III, as I could imagine the followers of many evil deities being?

Catergory one means they believed in their deity, but commited a crime that they will not be picked up by it. Example could be a paladin of Tyr who caused great injustice in the believe he would actually do justice. A banite can still do the most heinous of crimes, but if he is not deemed false then he goes to his lord.

Ah, so it's crimes against your deity or faith, then?

Why can't a Faithless be raised? Isn't it the caster of the spell's deity that restores them, not the dead persons deity? Or is it just a rule?

There is sadly no indepth explanation. It is not stated if Kelemvor needs to believe they are false or if the deity does. The fact he is the one who judges if a person is false or not would mean that I would expect more or less that it is his descion.

Primarily yes, it means you are a false follower, so the crime or mislead conduct means it is against your deity. Who decides that I would love to know, but ic I will preach what my character believes so its not that anoying.

Faithless cant be raised in any fashion. They die and its over. I cant find the percise rule on it, but I believe it is in the FRCS.

Phearnun wrote:

The Faithless [...] Each soul is held together with a green mould from which no one who is part of the wall can break free.

So they can be freed by someone who's not part of the wall?

Demons often attack the City of Judgement for that exact reason, so yes.

Scimiter wrote:

I figure on that one he gets retrieved from the demons and ends up waiting in the Court again in that long line up for a appeal considering he got taken

"Adon (Kelemvor and Mystra's mutual friend, as well the patriarch of Mystra's new church) was driven mad by Cyric's trickery, losing his faith in Mystra, and had died a faithless soul. Mystra came to Kelemvor and asked for Adon's soul, which Kelemvor steadfastly refused since Adon was now one of the Faithless, or perhaps even the False. This, along with Kelemvor's loss of passion, eventually caused the breaking up of their relationship."

The reason why you are faithless matters not to Kelemvor, hence I doubt an appeal would be even thinkable. You either are, or you arent.

Phearnun wrote:

There is sadly no indepth explanation. It is not stated if Kelemvor needs to believe they are false or if the deity does. The fact he is the one who judges if a person is false or not would mean that I would expect more or less that it is his descion.

Primarily yes, it means you are a false follower, so the crime or mislead conduct means it is against your deity. Who decides that I would love to know, but ic I will preach what my character believes so its not that anoying.

Faithless cant be raised in any fashion. They die and its over. I cant find the percise rule on it, but I believe it is in the FRCS.

And apparently I awnsered myself a question. Kelemvor is the person who decides if they are false or faithless, the concern of the deity is not-important, as seen with the Mystra case.

Sounding like a lost pup now.. what do demons want with the souls? And if the souls get freed by something other than demons, what can be done to revive one of those faithless-but-now-freed-from-the-wall souls?

I believe that is described in the Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss. As far as I remember, demons steal souls for divine energy they in most cases dont gain otherwise. They can devour them, torture them or somehow turn them into a demon. I know more of the process of what devils do with them, but I think that should be the rough of it.

I am not sure of the latter option. It would be extremely hard to get there for the first place. I can imagine if you would free one of the wall through some unique occurences and a very big amount of luck, you could somehow restore them. I mean the Mask of the Betrayer game dealt with a simmilar idea, but that is not really cannon.

ticket wrote:

Sounding like a lost pup now.. what do demons want with the souls?

For currency and torture-toys.

Edit: Ninja'd

"The servants of Kelemvor and Jergal enact punishments on the False and act as a city militia to protect against tanar'ri raids and, on rare occasions, attack the Abyss to punish demons for attacking the city."

Perhaps his soul could be brought back, but I am quite sure it would end up in the wall again.

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

AFAIK Kelemvor only judges people when "Their time is up", but I'm not entirely sure.

Correct.

I believe this to be incorrect, but sadly I dont have the source either.

As far as I lmow, any soul which dies, prematurely, overmaturely or at the perfect time ends up in the Fugue Plane. A being could already be in the realm of their lord, for instance the House of the Triad, and be called back from it. If this was not the case, the consequences could be dire, for instance if a child is killed, it will be judged even though normally it would be too early for it. Otherwise, if there is no one around to raise the child, and normally there would not, it would wait for an eternity to be judged by Kelemvor.

I thought that the line to get to Kelemvor was pretty long, so you have a while to consider deals with those devils.

Yep, quite sure it could take a while. The deals would be rather attractive if you think you are faithless or false, and are standing next to the wall

As an interesting side note : two points

#1 This is the first thread where me and Big P agreed on something, let alone it be Lore on Kelemvor!

#2 Previously, if someone tried to raise or rezz someone during Jergals time, and didn't offer a fitting tribute, not only would he not raise the individual, he'd come after the one trying to do the raising!

This was of course before the time of Troubles.

Regards,

I think the lore on Kelemvor is the last of our concern in our debates. Most of it is set in stone quite well there.

--

Anyway, to summarize, my suggestion is to personally avoid this story if you have -any- intention on bringing him back. Even you somehow (and that seems next to impossible for another mortal) got freed from the wall and restored by a friend, you wouldnt last long as I am sure some servant of death would make sure you come back to your cozy spot in the wall.

I personally would hate to see the already ludicrous seeming way death is being handled to be brought to the next level because a person played himself into a corner and then using the rule that perma-death cannot be forced. Its like making a story of how a character died of old age and then trying to un-perma him again.

I thank you all for your input. Bringing him back or not this thread has been well worth posting. Phearnun if you've not already you might want to consider putting some of your information into the AmiaWiki. See you in game.

Lock thread please

Kelemvor entry is rather large and thorough I think, but I can see if info on the faithless and false is there. Hope it helped.

Scimiter wrote:

Well good thing I'm not asking permission to bring him back. That right belongs to the player no matter what.

Oh. You remind me of another player I know.

In which case, why are you wasting a DM's time (me) with questions? You obviously don't give a crap about the lore or the circumstances. Do as you like, and don't ask for help if help isn't what you want. It's not my fault you wrote your character into a position where by the lore he is dead. so that you cna write a fany forum post abut his amazing epic heroic return whereupon he is loved by all his friends again.

I'm annoyed because you've shown direct antagonism for how DnD and DMing works. "You're not my REAL dad, you can't tell me what to do."

TormakSaber wrote:

Scimiter wrote:

Well good thing I'm not asking permission to bring him back. That right belongs to the player no matter what.

Oh. You remind me of another player I know.

SAY MY NAME! Hoo-ah.

AxlLeigh wrote:

SAY MY NAME! Hoo-ah.

*sigh*

This is really not needed in the forums. Passive agressive and all.

This thread really needs a lock.

Request for lore, RP flavor suggestions and DM ruling

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