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I would like to take a moment to crack open a discussion on aggressive factions. By my reckoning those would currently include *at least at initial thought*:

- The Eternal Order
- The Banites
- Elements of Winya Ravana

There likely are others I am not thinking of , but in my dealings in game and forum glancing those are the ones that seem to come to mind.

I've had a brief exchange with some folks about this topic and here's where I'm going to weigh in, in summary:

* Aggressive factions while they can generate RP, need to be played with the honest understanding they should be risking something in their choice of using aggression in combat, as opposed to diplomacy.

This is a point which is hard to really deal with, as in some cases yes there is something that they can be risking. Examples such as the EO headquarters in the Black Caravan destruction are present, but there needs to really be more cases of Aggressive factions, really feeling some sort of 'Bite' for their actions.

With the Job system in place however, I feel humbly that within manageable and carefully controlled circumstances , strikes against Faction facilities can be handled and RP'd effectively *moreso if needed, the aftermath of repairing the damaged facilities*. If such a strike with the intention of causing actual effect to a faction was required to have DM supervision and observation, (as well as advance notice to them and prep time on their parts) , it would be able to offer potentially interesting and compelling RP either in the repair efforts, the efforts to stop the attack, or both.

That said however, Aggressive factions just going out into a specific region and being disruptive can only be so interesting for so long really. Especially if without Player consent, there can be no significant effects inflicted on the individual (such as Level loss, Permanent Death, etc.). As in most cases, I empathize with the player at the other end of the computer I wouldn't so readily demand such of them, unless we had a fair and equitable way to handle it. *Mainly, a set of codified standards the DMs would/could use to deal with such*.

I believe if further options to show consequences for actions were to be availible, Aggressive factions may either 1) Become more and more effective at what they do. 2) Reconsider their position and consider other options.

One problem that does arise from this is Powerbuilding. While with the Building thread there is a source for those who cannot build to save their life (myself included) to learn and perhaps develop better builds over all, such a change if put into place would warrant people needing to 'Powerbuild' more unless they wished to become victims constantly.

As well, if such changes were put into place, there is a danger that abusive personalities could more readily 'Bully' people and get their OOC jollies that way. To which, I admit I have no easy answer.

These are my thoughts, not presented in the best of fashions but I am honestly trying. I also admit I have had time to consider my opinion since the initial abovementioned discussions.

Grymia, signing off to whomever wishes to add to this.

Grymia wrote:

One problem that does arise from this is Powerbuilding. While with the Building thread there is a source for those who cannot build to save their life (myself included) to learn and perhaps develop better builds over all, such a change if put into place would warrant people needing to 'Powerbuild' more unless they wished to become victims constantly.

Too late.
--P.

I think they already do risk a lot by doing things the way they do. Certain Winyans, to a lesser extent, but still. The EO had their temple destroyed and threatened yet again for their actions. The Banites had their temple destroyed as well and have been threatened recently again. So yeah, they do pay a high cost, IMO. Not high enough, maybe, sure. But the DM's do their part in applying consequences. It's people on the server who should be applying consequences as well. People should be putting some thought into what their characters do and apply some smart pressure instead of just typical PvP and run. Be smart about it, work things out in writing and pitch it to DM's. I honestly think players are lazy in that they don't want to "waist their time" coming up with a good plot to pitch and go through with.

Winya Ravana is not necessarily an aggressive faction. We dislike Drow through a millenia of feuding; and thus will continue that lore in the game.

Otherwise, we're quite welcoming to other factions. (Except evil aligned, naturally)

Will be very interesting following up on this thread

Aggressive factions?

I'd say that on the whole, you're misjudging things quite a lot.

Winya's goals are quite simple, they seek to keep Drow below ground and monsters out of the forests. The fact is, these Drow and other monsterkin, are deliberately going to the forest to seek conflict RP and a fight. If they wanted to not have conflict RP, they could go anywhere else in the Persistant world. Its really that simple.

The consequences of this conflict on my character at least, is she gets abused by all and sundry and threatened with violence on regular occasions, despite the fact that she's only ever been in the sort of PvP above once...by willing participants mind.

That's life, I accept that other Elves' actions have an affect on my own Elf because every dog and his owner, seems to think Winyans are vile. I don't complain, despite the fact that my PC has been attacked in several instances by non-elves. But to bring it up on a forum in an OOC way is going against the spirit of what's happening in game.

I don't complain when the Banites make my character's life hell. I don't complain when my character gets attacked by the EO. But equally, I don't hear those faction people whinge and complain when they themselves are attacked and killed.

Conflict RP is what it is. It has IC consequences and I can tell you now, being in those factions, you really -are- hated and despised and that can be a lonely position to be in.

For the record, Winya is not an official faction.

I think you're making a non-issue, an issue personally.

soundofastream wrote:

For the record, Winya is not an official faction.

Hence why he said "Elements of Winya" - But all of the above 'greed... Unless your Mago.

I believe he is more referring to the factions/behaviours that involve stomping up to someone's door, saying "Do X Y Z or else", and simply getting to buckle up in their base in safety afterwards.

The EO getting pwned isn't an applicable counter-argument. That was Plot / Event based, not factional or playerbased.

WonWon wrote:

I believe he is more referring to the factions/behaviours that involve stomping up to someone's door, saying "Do X Y Z or else", and simply getting to buckle up in their base in safety afterwards.

The EO getting pwned isn't an applicable counter-argument. That was Plot / Event based, not factional or playerbased.

WonWon speaks not only a good point on a good chunk of what I was trying to say, but also in his mentioning of a GOOD scenario in the grand scheme.

Don't you need DM supervision to start a conflict on a city or stronghold anyway? Usually, most of this conflict occurs in wilderness settings. Amia forest is, I admit a strange one. It has all these guards around from the Grove and Road Wardens, yet people just ignore them.

P Three wrote:

Grymia wrote:

One problem that does arise from this is Powerbuilding. While with the Building thread there is a source for those who cannot build to save their life (myself included) to learn and perhaps develop better builds over all, such a change if put into place would warrant people needing to 'Powerbuild' more unless they wished to become victims constantly.

Too late.
--P.

What was that discussion we had awhile back about hiding behind anonymous alternate accounts to make snide comments that you don't want attached to your "real" e-persona? Oh... right.

The solution to the powerbuild-faction-assault problem is simple!

Run events and plots that are undefeatable by the utilization of powerbuilds, statistics, force, or UberPwn alone! Shame most miss this by a mile, but...

Aggressive factions should be subjects of high risks when those whom aggressive factions are aggressive towards are suffering the risks of the aggression.

As it is now... there's been more punishment dealt towards aggressive factions (throughout the history of Amia) than aggressive factions have been able to dash out.

To put it in simple terms:

Once we get to the point where Darthion having murdered/slayed/sacrificed 600+ characters actually makes an impact and comes with consequences for those on the other end of the beating, I'll gadly have consequences applied to Darthion once his evil ways backfire.

Actually there's a couple of such events in place that I know of:

1) As a player I have an interesting idea on how it could be resolved given time, but I don't think any of my characters'd be able to implement the idea I have without heavy support.

2) The other major event that is there is one of the ones where it'd be very interesting if ever resolved to see exactly HOW it gets resolved and what the bloody fallout could be.

Grymia wrote:

Actually there's a couple of such events in place that I know of:

1) As a player I have an interesting idea on how it could be resolved given time, but I don't think any of my characters'd be able to implement the idea I have without heavy support.

2) The other major event that is there is one of the ones where it'd be very interesting if ever resolved to see exactly HOW it gets resolved and what the bloody fallout could be.

... say what?

Those were in reply to WonWon's talk about events that didn't rely on Uberpowerbuildlulzorz.

I wasn't specific exactly because I didn't either wish to point the events out although by all reality if one thought about it they could guess which two events I allude to.

We all know he's talking about the Caravan, no need to be oblique.

That one was implicit, but there's one other.

I don't find this to be that big an issue either. It is what it is. If PC's have issues, they should apply consequences. OOC issues are irrelevant. But, the point is, if this is an issue for people, they should be looking in the mirror for the answer to applying pressure and consequences to factions and groups. It doesn't always take having to have the DM's do something to accomplish this. Hell, rarely does it take that, if you ask me. That's my point.

For example, in reply to Gunz' comment, not once has the Amian Forest given the patrol guards of Winya Ravana a good enough reason, or a strong enough consequence to pack up their gear and leave for good.

The arguments they put forth are always countered by the fact that the Winya elves have been around long before the Druids, and that we've been, in conjunction WITH the Grove and other Druids, defending their lands from Dhaerow for (i guess I will say) centuries.

Aggressive faction is not the right term when applied to RP. That's just a term, I'm getting the feeling, is being used because some people are faaaar to pansy lovey dovey to bother dealing with potential pvp situations. The Elves are what they are, and there's a VERY strong misconception when justifying their actions - they're seen as biggoted, racist, arrogant, powerhungry pigs.

When lore-gistically, they speak down to N'Tel'Quessir because they are N'Tel'Quessir and will never understand the ways of Tel'Quessir - AND they aren't all that racist, they just hate Drow.

I don't see how that's /aggressive/, nor do I see this argument heading anywhere other than circular logic until it's locked.

I, believe it or not, do find it to be an issue.

Amia caters to a very wide array of playing styles, from the Hack and Slash Psuedo-RPer, to the Fantasy Social Junkie, to the happy mediums in between.

Ultimately, Amia is very light on its consequences. You die, you get back up, and all sorts of other little dealios.

Put these two factors together, and you're going to have issues keeping everyone happy, when someone as part of the Hack and Slash Psuedo-RPer decides to Unleash His Holy Might against a Fantasy Social Junkie and their clique/faction.

H&S Player, or Faction, can walk up to SocialJunkie's clique and say "Do this or we will kick your arse", or "Stop doing this or we will kick your arse", or "You are X. Stop being X or we will kick your arse". Which sadly happens -alot- with certain factions.

Unfortunately, the Social Junkies are stuck in a rut when this happens. What are their responses? They tweak their entire RP to satisfy H&S Group, which is hardly enjoyable for them, or they resist and get into constant conflict/PvP (which Social Junkies, being the sort to have not sparked any of this conflict in the frist place, likely -doesn't- enjoy) until one side caves, leaving a bitter taste in the mouth of the loser OOCly.

A PvP Slugfest back and forth may occur, which is absolute bollocks. Team H&S is likely - being the Hack And Slash Psuedo RP Crew - to have the significant amount of powerbuilds, PvP Masters and mechanics-manipulating-pwnmasters in the conflict, and thus Social Junkie has to bend over and take it up the arse while either they deal with daily conflicts, or by having to change their RP to the whim of another group.

You can say I'm being extremist, but I've watch the OOC Slugfests that happen after these issues, and I do get to watch the Party Chat... sadly enough.

Personally, I'll always side with the Defender (Social Junkie in this case), due to Amia's set up. If you want to go out of your way to stir problems for people which may not be up for it - you better be damn well willing to leave yourself wide open for more than you bargained for.

It may be completely Lore justified, however this isn't Cormyr, The Dalelands or Ravenloft. Bend the lore abit so other players you're dealing with can enjoy the whole situation (lest they outright and openly bring it upon themselves, in which case, let 'em have it)

I don't see this at all from the elves, btw. It's a very different kind of 'aggressive' styled RP that's actually done rather tactfully most of the time.

Umm, the Grove has been around WAAAAAAY longer than Winya and there would be very very clear evidence of this ICly just FYI.

TormakSaber wrote:

Umm, the Grove has been around WAAAAAAY longer than Winya and there would be very very clear evidence of this ICly just FYI.

That. Also alot of Winya's original, IC, behaviours actually had them as the secondary to the Grove, as well as bowing out (willingly and positively) in favour of the Grove's decisions with the Eilistraeens.

Agressive factions and passive factions, good playing and bad playing...

Not too promising of a start.

Anyways. If there is risk involved, there must be potential reward and victory involved as well, which there is not.

EDIT: As in I agree with Mago again.

Actually there's one gent somewhere in the Horsemen whom has the distinctive honour of being the one finally responsible for the injuries which ended Bryce's life. (and also for a time, put him into a childlike mind).

That was built up to, in part by things that happened to him but a lot of it came from defeat after defeat after defeat wracking his body.

The Winyans, and I will continue to discuss the Winyans as we've been labelled as an aggressive faction - don't go into Amia Forest to seek conflict. We go there because our history has compelled us to, because our alliances (or once alliances) with the Grove obligated us to, and because we care for the forest' inhabitants.

Meldrium, probably one of the main causes of Winya being labelled as an aggressive faction, constantly tries to appeal to the Druids, discuss calmly their purpose, and seeks peace with those that care for the natural world as much as he. In fact, he's even been working on creating an environmentally friendly checkpoint for the Elves to set up when they travel into the forest.

Unfortunately, too many people believe that we are there to hurt and cause conflict - his mere presence causes most people to have that hostile button ready for the sluggin'.

I do agree that it can be a problem, and I try not to tell other factions to "do this", but rather "We are doing this, we won't get in your way, if you won't get in ours."

Grymia wrote:

Actually there's one gent somewhere in the Horsemen whom has the distinctive honour of being the one finally responsible for the injuries which ended Bryce's life. (and also for a time, put him into a childlike mind).

That was built up to, in part by things that happened to him but a lot of it came from defeat after defeat after defeat wracking his body.

Ah, another example that I can relate to. Meldrium's grasp over the Arcane was reversed after an onslaught of deaths from Lucretia and Tarick. I can safely say, I work for consequences, and gladly welcome them in light of my actions.

lathandier wrote:

The Winyans, and I will continue to discuss the Winyans as we've been labelled as an aggressive faction - don't go into Amia Forest to seek conflict. We go there because our history has compelled us to, because our alliances (or once alliances) with the Grove obligated us to, and because we care for the forest' inhabitants.

Meldrium, probably one of the main causes of Winya being labelled as an aggressive faction, constantly tries to appeal to the Druids, discuss calmly their purpose, and seeks peace with those that care for the natural world as much as he. In fact, he's even been working on creating an environmentally friendly checkpoint for the Elves to set up when they travel into the forest.

Unfortunately, too many people believe that we are there to hurt and cause conflict - his mere presence causes most people to have that hostile button ready for the sluggin'.

I do agree that it can be a problem, and I try not to tell other factions to "do this", but rather "We are doing this, we won't get in your way, if you won't get in ours."

Between WonWon's earlier mention of this, and your point now I will give some leeway to Winya's elements I speak of, though you do have to admit coming into a faction's protected territory and TELLING them 'We are doing this, we won't get in your way if you won't get in ours' .. isn't gonna be conducive to peaceful reactions.

I don't know the entirety of the Forest/Winya situation, I admit that freely. However, I do know that from what I've seen.. I'm going to believe as I have chosen.

As a Grovie and the one who's sorta dealing with the Winyans from that faction, I'd say you're sorta off.

The Grove doesn't have a problem with the Winyans and their checkpoints, under certain circumstances. Eary sort of supervises (usually without them knowing

Gogo HiPS) and keeps an eye on it. They're skeptical, but ultimately - they're helping keep dangerous people out of the forest. Lolthite Drow aren't exactly known for their love of nature.

lathandier wrote:

Grymia wrote:

Actually there's one gent somewhere in the Horsemen whom has the distinctive honour of being the one finally responsible for the injuries which ended Bryce's life. (and also for a time, put him into a childlike mind).

That was built up to, in part by things that happened to him but a lot of it came from defeat after defeat after defeat wracking his body.

Ah, another example that I can relate to. Meldrium's grasp over the Arcane was reversed after an onslaught of deaths from Lucretia and Tarick. I can safely say, I work for consequences, and gladly welcome them in light of my actions.

Groovy.

I have to admit, Vael still doesn't like Meldrium and I as a player can understand why he does what he does but don't like him either, but still at the least I can understand why he does what he does. (though Vael's an opinionated at times questionably insane Elf)

I'm rather curious as to how Banites should be RP'ed if not aggressively...

The Banite dogma is kind of black and white really... "Join us or assist us, if you don't, you'll be killed or otherwise incapacitated by any means necessary."

The Banite followers enforce their believes by often primitive means, to meet a sophisticated end.

There's no middle ground at all, if you are to follow the dogma. A paladin should be slayed on sight. Likewise should a cyricist.

We don't do that on Amia though, due to NWN being NWN, Amia being Amia and a PW being a PW. More often than not, at least I, kind of give hardcore following of the lore some room for the sake of gameplaying enjoyment.

In the end, the RP of being a zealous follower of Bane all comes down to converting those who do not follow Bane (if they refuse to be converted, treat them as infidels), dominate everyone (including other Banites, according to rankings), spread fear, hatred, tyranny and destruction.

It's kind of hard to attempt a pacifistic approach to a faction that's entirely focused on evil deeds and the completely unforgiving, harsh and brutal act of executing them.

Banites bully. They're meant to bully.

Unfortunately, on Amia, builds do come into play with that.

Something I've regretfully had to spend hundreds of DCs on as rebuilds in order for my character to live up to its purpose and RP sensibility.

In the end, it would be so much easier if players could RP along the lines of (fantasy) realism, where a group of EVIL blackguards walking into an Inn to threaten a lonely adventurer would actually be responded to as threatening.

The "Social Junkies" rarely, if ever, responds accordingly, since it's not in line with their preferred non-conflict RP. 9 times out of 10, they rather ignore the RP being put forward in order to wait it out so that they can resume whatever they were doing before the encounter of potential conflict occurred.

WonWon wrote:

As a Grovie and the one who's sorta dealing with the Winyans from that faction, I'd say you're sorta off.

The Grove doesn't have a problem with the Winyans and their checkpoints, under certain circumstances. Eary sort of supervises (usually without them knowing

Gogo HiPS) and keeps an eye on it. They're skeptical, but ultimately - they're helping keep dangerous people out of the forest. Lolthite Drow aren't exactly known for their love of nature.

As for this, you're providing another perspective (I admit I don't go to Amia forest as often as I probably ought to have before bringing the conflict involved in that as an example, but nonetheless).

Though with Eary supervising them, I can rest a bit easier ^_^

I'll be the one to go out and say it;

Maybe Zealous Banite is a concept that simply doesn't work effectively on Amia?

I mean, you do need to think a bit as to whether or not something can be pulled off. You simply couldn't play a Garagosan properly on Amia, it's simply not possible due to the rules. You can choose to play it anyway, but it's sort of poorly based to later grumble that it can't be done because of [whatever reasons].

I see plenty of things that work on Amia in the evil field, but there's also alot of things that simply don't, and being able to understand that is a pretty integral point to it all. In a world where no one stays dead, dragons are easy to kill, and all PvP/Conflict needs an out - playing something that Lore Wise relies on those three factors all reading as False is very self-destructive and counter-intuitive.

WonWon wrote:

As a Grovie and the one who's sorta dealing with the Winyans from that faction, I'd say you're sorta off.

The Grove doesn't have a problem with the Winyans and their checkpoints, under certain circumstances. Eary sort of supervises (usually without them knowing

Gogo HiPS) and keeps an eye on it. They're skeptical, but ultimately - they're helping keep dangerous people out of the forest. Lolthite Drow aren't exactly known for their love of nature.

True, I'm probably more speaking of the Glade's frustration with us than the Grove. The Grove has always been accepting of our help within reason - as long as we don't hellball the place.

And I agree with Mago - Banites are Banites; they're hard arse evil douchebags... Though they are dulled down a bit on the server. Besides - we all love conflict, it's a great source for commercial television, why not for a commercial PW?

WonWon wrote:

I'll be the one to go out and say it;

Maybe Zealous Banite is a concept that simply doesn't work effectively on Amia?

I mean, you do need to think a bit as to whether or not something can be pulled off. You simply couldn't play a Garagosan properly on Amia, it's simply not possible due to the rules. You can choose to play it anyway, but it's sort of poorly based to later grumble that it can't be done because of [whatever reasons].

I see plenty of things that work on Amia in the evil field, but there's also alot of things that simply don't, and being able to understand that is a pretty integral point to it all. In a world where no one stays dead, dragons are easy to kill, and all PvP/Conflict needs an out - playing something that Lore Wise relies on those three factors all reading as False is very self-destructive and counter-intuitive.

I have to agree with this wholehartedly.

Don't play her often, but I do play a rather zealous and devout Banite whom has activities which keep her out of the primary church, but nonetheless loyal and dedicated to His service.

However, because of both my own player preference, and the concept, she is a lot more LAWFULLY oriented then she is Evil.

I don't play her often, but when I do I can feel reasonably good playing her without too much trouble.

We tried going the whole hidden, secret, acting unknowingly in the shadows with evil intentions way of playing a Banite... several times.

By several times, I mean... hundreds of times.

We tried that for 2 years straight. Back when Darthion was a member of the Cordorian Guard and not a single soul knew of his or Eoweniel's true loyalties.

Going the hidden, secret, acting in the shadows route is probably the least rewarding type of RP anyone can ever try to commit themselves to on Amia.

There's months, even years of investments into playing such a role, for little to no benefits. And with the blink of an eye, a character is completely exposed and all the RP that was done with the intention to build up and progress, loses its value. Entirely.

Our most recent example of that was Brenda.

Nearly 4-5 months of undercover RP, to infiltrate an Amian settlement, exposed by just one hidden character making its way into the Banite temple at one occassion.

So how are we to RP Banites?

Is there no feasible way?

Should we just say "fuck it, this will never work" and just drop the aspirations entirely?

My personal opinion is that Banites on Amia is a concept that simply isn't viable. Secrecy based factions do work, if you can do them right - in fact there's three that are thriving behind the curtains, and have been for a rather long time.

That said. Bane is a deity/clergy that focuses on intimidation, force, and oppression - on top of an unyielding nature.

I earnestly can't see how that would work on Amia. You can say people aren't RPing right, but unfortunately people -do- get back up after they die, so you can't blame them for looking at death the same way an ordinary bloke looks at minor beatings. It hurts at the time, but you get back up later and you're 100% fine (unless the recipient of their own will decides otherwise)

That's just my, personal, opinion however.

Last edited by Mr Mago on Tue, Oct 27 2009, 6:36 AM, edited 1 time in total.

As it stands now, the only reason we're getting some kind of rewarding IC response at all is due to OOC fear of having your ego deflated by suffering a PK loss.

Which sucks.

Shouldn't the fact that Darthion, for example, being widely known as capable to do -whatever- it takes to punish someone who confronts him, through the most vile and evil means possible, be a valid reason enough to act cautiously towards him?

Humans (the IRL ones, you know) are considerably shaken and terrified whenever deeds of an extreme malicious nature become known.

Think of someone like Hannibal Lector, for example. Or any brutal psychopathic serial killer for that matter.

Is it the deeds that are the most terrifying, or the fact that a human would be able to execute them, with such a mindset?

Perhaps I'm just being naively elitistic in thinking that RP could actually have a deeper reasoning behind it than being motivated by OOC fear of being proven that your loving character isn't unbeatable.

Like they say.. if you're going to walk trough a locker room. You'll see alot of naked people.

Play someone who create conflict trough pvp fights, where most have no chance of winning, from whatever reason. (Such as pvp inexperience, crappy builds etc etc). And you can expect for people to have reactions OOCly to it, to various degrees, because they feel forced into that RP, and some may feel it ruins their fun. Conflict without any foreseeable end or "Win/loose" situation, grows stale and annoying after a while.

So maybe once in a while, laying down the smackdown on the awesome pvp builds is warranted, to level the playing ground? That or simply take builds out of the equation, in long conflicts, to resolve it.

OR just a DM stepping in at one point (if needed), and say "The next conflict here, will be the final one between group X and Y for a while." To give both parties some breathing space.

Mr Mago wrote:

As it stands now, the only reason we're getting some kind of rewarding IC response at all is due to OOC fear of having your ego deflated by suffering a PK loss.

Which sucks.

Shouldn't the fact that Darthion, for example, being widely known as capable to do -whatever- it takes to punish someone who confronts him, through the most vile and evil means possible, be a valid reason enough to act cautiously towards him?

Humans (the IRL ones, you know) are considerably shaken and terrified whenever deeds of an extreme malicious nature become known.

Think of someone like Hannibal Lector, for example. Or any brutal psychopathic serial killer for that matter.

Is it the deeds that are the most terrifying, or the fact that a human would be able to execute them, with such a mindset?

Perhaps I'm just being naively elitistic in thinking that RP could actually have a deeper reasoning behind it than being motivated by OOC fear of being proven that your loving character isn't unbeatable.

There's a few points you're sort of missing, however, which are directly linked to the Setting and the raw IC of it all. Yes, some things are the result of OOC machinations (no player-enforced permadeath), but they are still IC effects (people live after death).

Faerun isn't a place were Murder or Genocide is the 'unspeakable evil'. It happens almost daily. Sun Elves hunting Drow, Drow raiding homes, Orcs on constant warmarches, kobolds killing from the shadows, Banites walking into towns and razing them should they not submit, Cyricists causing chaos and mayhem, and demon hordes torturing people for their entire existance.

Not to mention, ICly, you can be raised after death.

Add in that the individuals you are doing this to may or may not be the sort who to traipze about the 363rd Layer of the Abyss to slaughter demons by the dozen on their lonesome, and you'll need to come to the very simple understanding that you're not all that awesome.

You can claim it's completely OOC, however there's actually alot of IC backing in there, and it's likely coming into play alot more than you think.

Mr Mago wrote:

As it stands now, the only reason we're getting some kind of rewarding IC response at all is due to OOC fear of having your ego deflated by suffering a PK loss.

Which sucks.

Shouldn't the fact that Darthion, for example, being widely known as capable to do -whatever- it takes to punish someone who confronts him, through the most vile and evil means possible, be a valid reason enough to act cautiously towards him?

Humans (the IRL ones, you know) are considerably shaken and terrified whenever deeds of an extreme malicious nature become known.

Think of someone like Hannibal Lector, for example. Or any brutal psychopathic serial killer for that matter.

Is it the deeds that are the most terrifying, or the fact that a human would be able to execute them, with such a mindset?

Perhaps I'm just being naively elitistic in thinking that RP could actually have a deeper reasoning behind it than being motivated by OOC fear of being proven that your loving character isn't unbeatable.

And some humans are just as equivically if not moreso prone towards channeling that above mentioned reaction into dealing with the problem permanently.

What's sad, is that the ones you would find unlikely to resort to PvP in situations where potential conflict might be due, often are the ones to initiate it.

From my experiences, people very, very, very, very, very seldom react with fear, submission or retreat when they face Darthion.

In fact, most of them tend to escalate the hostilities.

And that's with Darthion... being widely known for who he is, what he's done. Even widely known OOCly for having a strong build, etc.

What is it that comes into play? Because I have yet to figure it out in my close to 1000 PvP encounters on Amia so far.

I consider every single RP encounter with conflict, yet without PvP, a huge relief these days.

Is it IC pride that gets in the way? IC zealousy? OOC pride? OOC awareness that nothing can affect or inflict damage upon their characters anyway? Is it ignorance?

Anyone with an answer to this would be highly appreciated. Because it's been mindbothering me for quite some time now.

I've got a different approach, if the social junkies want to have space to do the social junkie stuff, they should be given space. If South Amia Forest is that space, then make it the ruling that South Amia Forest cannot be PvP'ed in without DM permission as its a Grove faction space.

If not, tough biscuits. Currently, South Amia Forest is a PvP haven. Its disgruntled the Grovite players I admit, although most have upped sticks and left due to a DM event that didn't go their way.

My own character has agreed to limit patrols in south amia forest, but instead enforces things further north. I'm doing this to give the social junkies some space. I don't know why they can't simply do their social junkie bit INSIDE Grove grounds...that's what the story area is for.

There will always be a conflict of interest between the two sides. It seems though, that the Social Junkie is no longer content to just hang out in Cordor all day anymore. Nope, they have to hang out in Amia forest instead, where they know conflict is rife and occurring anyway.

I'm confused who these social junkies are and what exactly their demands are... Anyone?

WonWon wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

As it stands now, the only reason we're getting some kind of rewarding IC response at all is due to OOC fear of having your ego deflated by suffering a PK loss.

Which sucks.

Shouldn't the fact that Darthion, for example, being widely known as capable to do -whatever- it takes to punish someone who confronts him, through the most vile and evil means possible, be a valid reason enough to act cautiously towards him?

Humans (the IRL ones, you know) are considerably shaken and terrified whenever deeds of an extreme malicious nature become known.

Think of someone like Hannibal Lector, for example. Or any brutal psychopathic serial killer for that matter.

Is it the deeds that are the most terrifying, or the fact that a human would be able to execute them, with such a mindset?

Perhaps I'm just being naively elitistic in thinking that RP could actually have a deeper reasoning behind it than being motivated by OOC fear of being proven that your loving character isn't unbeatable.

There's a few points you're sort of missing, however, which are directly linked to the Setting and the raw IC of it all. Yes, some things are the result of OOC machinations (no player-enforced permadeath), but they are still IC effects (people live after death).

Faerun isn't a place were Murder or Genocide is the 'unspeakable evil'. It happens almost daily. Sun Elves hunting Drow, Drow raiding homes, Orcs on constant warmarches, kobolds killing from the shadows, Banites walking into towns and razing them should they not submit, Cyricists causing chaos and mayhem, and demon hordes torturing people for their entire existance.

Not to mention, ICly, you can be raised after death.

Add in that the individuals you are doing this to may or may not be the sort who to traipze about the 363rd Layer of the Abyss to slaughter demons by the dozen on their lonesome, and you'll need to come to the very simple understanding that you're not all that awesome.

You can claim it's completely OOC, however there's actually alot of IC backing in there, and it's likely coming into play alot more than you think.

True. Very valid points.

But... how could the RP be altered if so? Can it be altered?

Because I'm getting the feeling from the posts in this topic that what we're doing is a bit daft, and doesn't serve a purpose.

So how can we serve a purpose, and actually accomplish?

What's lacking in the RP? How can it be improved?

Gravemaskin wrote:

OR just a DM stepping in at one point (if needed), and say "The next conflict here, will be the final one between group X and Y for a while." To give both parties some breathing space.

they could make alliances, the amia forest crew used to get attacked alot and were trying to hold thier own but were geting out numbered or overpowered.

so I started to help them guard the forest and I belive thier was a drop in pointless and random attacks(and losses on thier side) and about two days ago the shadowflame manor was attack by a DM plot, I asked the glade for help and they did, from what I assume was actions taken IC from a unspoken alliance.(I helped them so they helped me)

so I think instead of gting DMs to jump in or place guards so noone can fight because of metagaming rules try and make alliances, it sparks RP.

Mr Mago wrote:

What's sad, is that the ones you would find unlikely to resort to PvP in situations where potential conflict might be due, often are the ones to initiate it.

From my experiences, people very, very, very, very, very seldom react with fear, submission or retreat when they face Darthion.

In fact, most of them tend to escalate the hostilities.

And that's with Darthion... being widely known for who he is, what he's done. Even widely known OOCly for having a strong build, etc.

What is it that comes into play? Because I have yet to figure it out in my close to 1000 PvP encounters on Amia so far.

I consider every single RP encounter with conflict, yet without PvP, a huge relief these days.

Is it IC pride that gets in the way? IC zealousy? OOC pride? OOC awareness that nothing can affect or inflict damage upon their characters anyway? Is it ignorance?

Anyone with an answer to this would be highly appreciated. Because it's been mindbothering me for quite some time now.

It pure pridegaming at its worst and its rife here. Its an issue I tried to get addressed in the topic of the same name...

My answer is a very simple, honest answer;

How can you serve a purpose?

I don't know.

You're using a religion that really doesn't give you much room to move in, when compounded by Amia's own OOC and IC machinations.

So we're basically fucked.

If only someone would have told me that 4 years ago.

The reason you probably don't get anywhere, Sound, is because even in this thread - your OOC behaviour reminds me of a spoilt brat who believes it's Their Way or the Highway, and anyone disagreeing with that hereby is a 'poor RPer' or a 'Pridegamer' or any other amount of insulting titles you can associate to people that simply have a different style than your own.

What? I don't know what subtlety means, sorry.

Last edited by FA_Frey_XC on Tue, Oct 27 2009, 6:57 AM, edited 2 times in total.

Mr Mago wrote:

We tried going the whole hidden, secret, acting unknowingly in the shadows with evil intentions way of playing a Banite... several times.

By several times, I mean... hundreds of times.

We tried that for 2 years straight. Back when Darthion was a member of the Cordorian Guard and not a single soul knew of his or Eoweniel's true loyalties.

Going the hidden, secret, acting in the shadows route is probably the least rewarding type of RP anyone can ever try to commit themselves to on Amia.

There's months, even years of investments into playing such a role, for little to no benefits. And with the blink of an eye, a character is completely exposed and all the RP that was done with the intention to build up and progress, loses its value. Entirely.

Our most recent example of that was Brenda.

Nearly 4-5 months of undercover RP, to infiltrate an Amian settlement, exposed by just one hidden character making its way into the Banite temple at one occassion.

So how are we to RP Banites?

Is there no feasible way?

Should we just say "(censored) it, this will never work" and just drop the aspirations entirely?

Mago, that's bollocks and I'm not afraid to say that to your face. First of all, Bane's methods are not "bullying", you've warped that to justify your own personal perception of what a Banite should be.

"Preffering to plot and scheme, Bane rarely appears to act in a direct manner. His ultimate goal is to eventually control all of Faerûn. When summoned though, he has a dark, rather shadowy appearance with a resemblance of dark armor and his tell-tale jeweled dark gauntlet. He emanates an aura of vast power and cruel intelligence."

I'll stand by Frey's accomplishments as proof positive that evil, especially one as diabolical as Bane guiding him, sure did do quite a bit of Banes work, and brought quite a bit of fear and tyranny. Frey and Gurth are the ones who got the Banites their temple.. you know, that temple no one can get INTO without a portal rod.

What has the Banites done, under current leadership?

Nailed varmits to trees.

:roll:

The Banite faction, however, was filled with people that all want to be the "MOST EVILIST EVAH", and thought the coolest way to inspire fear was to kidnap someone and torture them in the privacy of a temple no one can get INTO without a portal rod.

:roll:

So the bottom line? Bane doesn't rule by backing up the Imperceptor that fled the Banite temple when it was under direct attack just so he wouldn't loose, Bane tries to succeed by "Preffering to plot and scheme", and thus furthur his goals behind the scenes because he's NOT STUPID.

He knows a direct confrontation with good won't win, so he intelligently understands the necessity of long term planning.

Mr Mago wrote:

So we're basically (censored).

If only someone would have told me that 4 years ago.

In your perception of what you wanted to turn the Banites into, yes.

Regards,

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