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You guys are silly as shit.

And... from my perspective, I would make the following claims (these are completely subjective, and there's absolutely no empiric evidence to back them up):

- Female players have in general been rewarded more, through all aspects, on Amia.

- The DM team has always had a higher percentile of female DMs than what has been represented in the playerbase.

- I don't believe that there's any favourism one way or another at this moment, at all, when it comes to DC requests (but there has certainly been in the past).

Oh... and Yurell, I don't think there's ever been another forum poster on Amia that has given a greater impression of trying to suck up to the DMs, likely in hopes of becoming DM yourself one day, than you. Not saying that that's what you're actually trying to do, but... you do give out that impression.

Oh... and Wyjyn, seriously dude, wtf have you become stuck on? Take a few steps back, reflect on the matter and don't turn it into a sticking point, just because.

Quote:

- The DM team has always had a higher percentile of female DMs than what has been represented in the playerbase.

Does this really matter? We should fire every girl DM except one, in that case...

You know maybe it's just that those people who get rewarded more have natural talent for doing the stuff that gets them rewarded, and everyone else has to work twice as hard to do half as well.

Wouldn't that be a shocker.

Mr Mago wrote:

You guys are silly as (censored).

And... from my perspective, I would make the following claims (these are completely subjective, and there's absolutely no empiric evidence to back them up):

- Female players have in general been rewarded more, through all aspects, on Amia.

- The DM team has always had a higher percentile of female DMs than what has been represented in the playerbase.

- I don't believe that there's any favourism one way or another at this moment, at all, when it comes to DC requests (but there has certainly been in the past).

Oh... and Yurell, I don't think there's ever been another forum poster on Amia that has given a greater impression of trying to suck up to the DMs, likely in hopes of becoming DM yourself one day, than you. Not saying that that's what you're actually trying to do, but... you do give out that impression.

Oh... and Wyjyn, seriously dude, wtf have you become stuck on? Take a few steps back, reflect on the matter and don't turn it into a sticking point, just because.

1. Wyjjyn, you get way more DCs than most anyone else, including most females, so yourself disproves your own point. I think its strongly a case of you RP, you get the DCs. No favouritism is going on and I don't see any Affirmative Action as an unofficial policy either
2. Contrary to popular belief, the DMs aren't trying to install a feminist DM government in power
3. I doubt female players have been rewarded more. For starters, our characters are less likely to stand out from a crowd
4. With the sole exception of the Drow, I know of only a handful of female faction leaders (Katsumei being one of the few), nearly all faction leaders are male characters. The site just mirrors social reality, nothing more, nothing less
5. Also, look at all the NPCs, nearly ALL of them are male. Vilmandel, leaders of Cordor, Kolinghen, Zanshibon, Uhm and so on...Males still hold all the power on this server.

So, I can't believe the crap and BS that's coming out of established male player's mouths here, when the reality is far from different. If anything, the power imbalance is strongly in favour of male characters and male players.

soundofastream wrote:

3. I doubt female players have been rewarded more. For starters, our characters are less likely to stand out from a crowd

Soundof, I think Mago was just making a series of observations, and he specifically stated that he didn't think there is any favouritism, nor did he state (although possibly imply depending on how you read it) that the favouritism was in favour of females.

Edit:

Mr Mago wrote:

Oh... and Yurell, I don't think there's ever been another forum poster on Amia that has given a greater impression of trying to suck up to the DMs, likely in hopes of becoming DM yourself one day, than you. Not saying that that's what you're actually trying to do, but... you do give out that impression.

I didn't realise ... it's not my intention at all.

Yurell wrote:

soundofastream wrote:

3. I doubt female players have been rewarded more. For starters, our characters are less likely to stand out from a crowd

Soundof, I think Mago was just making a series of observations, and he specifically stated that he didn't think there is any favouritism, nor did he state (although possibly imply depending on how you read it) that the favouritism was in favour of females.

Edit:

Mr Mago wrote:

Oh... and Yurell, I don't think there's ever been another forum poster on Amia that has given a greater impression of trying to suck up to the DMs, likely in hopes of becoming DM yourself one day, than you. Not saying that that's what you're actually trying to do, but... you do give out that impression.

I didn't realise ... it's not my intention at all.

Yes, but my post is also a general observation, not specifically to Mago.a

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

- The DM team has always had a higher percentile of female DMs than what has been represented in the playerbase.

Does this really matter? We should fire every girl DM except one, in that case...

Nekhy wrote:

There's more male DMs, though I surely would like some more females. But we don't do gender quotas here.

soundofastream wrote:

2. Contrary to popular belief, the DMs aren't trying to install a feminist DM government in power

I'm, uh, not exactly sure what to reply to that?

Clarification:

Women are already over-representative in the DM staff, compared to the percentile of women in the playerbase.

Nekhy still believes there should be even more women in the DM staff, for whatever reason.

Soundofastream claims that it's bogus that women would have ever gotten preferential treatment on Amia, yada yada.

One female DM wants more female DMs, because there's too many male DMs.

So n= 1 statistically speaking...

Duh. The point was, it doesn't matter what each individual DM would like to add to the staff, or what their ideal team would be. We don't do quotas, we pick individuals. Doesn't matter if a quote would be for men, women or monkeys, we don't do them.

Shit..

It's only like, the Head DM?

And it's not like... she's the one that gets to administrate the DM team?

Seriously. Any reasonable being quickly comes to realizes that there's far more female DMs on the DM staff than there are female players in the playerbase. From a percentile view.

Females in general, are still in a tiny minority compared to the amount of males playing computer games. Specially online.

That's also why females on the intranetz, doing what the nerds are doing, are commonly given favours due to the keyboard warriors sudden capability of typing suck-up replies with his dick.

I see this constantly in-game as well as out of game. Shit, just take a brief look at the picture commentary topic, and tell me that males are completely objective and rational towards females on the internet.

Anyhow... so we have more female DMs than players. From a percential view.

Yet for some reason, the Head DM wants even more?

Why?

Are females better DMs? Do they have some... magical mojo, that make their quests more fun and their judgements more accurate?

And then we have the playerbase, who attempt to be in complete denial that females get preferential treatment on the internet, and on AMia as well, by both DMs and players alike.

Just like females do when they go out on a club, or when try forget their buss card and smile at the driver, getting a free ride. ANd yada yada <insert one million other examples>.

Try to read thee words in context, Mago.

I've tried. A lot.

They still tend to look shitty.

Honestly there are more males than females, dmwise and playerwise.

Is it wrong for Nekh to want another female? Honestly I don't think she even cares what sex the next DM is...if they are being picked to be a dm, it's for many other reasons.

Even from these posts the one thing I noticed that NO ONE has bothered to take into consideration is the maturity level of posts concerning females and males....

Chances are most males act like jackasses....me included!

Honestly this went from DC talk to some weird "battle of the sexes" nonsense.

Mr Mago wrote:

I've tried. A lot.

They still tend to look (censored).

Well, let me deconstruct what I said above, then. Just for you.

First, there's a refute to a claim ("We got more male DMs, in fact"), then there's an example of a preference or an ideal ("Sure, I'd like some more female DMs") and then there's the reality of how things work ("We don't do gender quotas here").

The middle part is quite irrelevant to the sentence as whole, it's a reflection of personal feelings to what Wyjyn was claiming ("It'd be fun to work with more female DMs"), it's a conditional ("would") about an ideal situation, to me.

But do we pick DMs based on their gender? No, I wouldn't even want to, because I don't happen to believe in gender quotas, even if I have no problems saying I'm a feminist. But I do want to joke about adding estrogen to the team (as I tend to do when we do add female DMs), because that's my kind of humour. And I would love it, if there was more female players in general, too. But I think those female players have to make their own preferences about games they wanna play, and not be put in gamer gender quotas, just like that shouldn't be done with the DMs we pick.

So... like you told Wyjyn above there. Chill a bit.

Nekhy wrote:

The middle part is quite irrelevant to the sentence as whole, it's a reflection of personal feelings to what Wyjyn was claiming ("It'd be fun to work with more female DMs"), it's a conditional ("would") about an ideal situation, to me.

Nekhy wrote:

Wyjyn wrote:

Do I have to go through more pages tallying up accepted requests and genders before you will at least entertain the vague possibility that I am right? I never gave any reasons why it is the way it is, just that it is. Doesnt the DM team even have more females than males on it despite amia havine more males than females? These are the exact same sorts of statistics you quote all the time arguing against bias against women in the workplace. You selected those DMs because you favour them, and more of them are women then men. In truth, I am a consequentialist. Why you choose them is of no importance to me whatsoever, just that it is so. I dont care for the reasoning behind it in the least really, I just know that I am not in any favoured groups and subsequently using the request system is a bad idea for me and transfering that system onto the loot system would make amia a worse place to my mind. Basically, it would make amia like the old amia.

At least 'consider' the idea, even if you dont accept it. Take a glance over the request forums with the ideas I have presented in mind. Do people who are either female, DMs or DM friends seem to get a disproportionate amount of requests through the system relative to their player numbers. If you do that, you will at least see where I am coming from even if you dont agree it is indicative of favouritism.

First of all, the team having more female DMs is untrue. There's more male DMs, though I surely would like some more females. But we don't do gender quotas here.

Secondly, the stuff you quote as "truth" has nothing to do with the reality. We've been through the reasons many times before in this topic. You're apparently forming this imaginary Amia in your head, putting together pieces of evidence as you'd like it to be, in order to be able to criticise Amia for everything and anything.

Well, my dearest Wyjyn. There's plenty for you to criticise, how about you focus on some of the more real things? If you want to be taken seriously, that is. Right now, you just sound like a raving creationist going on about how the earth was created in 7 days, 6000 years ago.

That's where the creationist comparison comes from, it has nothing to do with science here. I don't even bother arguing with them, because no amount of arguments will make them believe that their fantasies are wrong. And that seems to be the case here, too. No amount of arguments, presenting statistics or anything would apparently convince you that this particular problem is only between your ears.

And that's fine by me. It is amusing, after all.

What you wrote is actually quite clear.

It wasn't "It'd be fun to work with more female DMs".

It was "There's more male DMs, though I surely would like some more females."

Mr Mago wrote:

What you wrote is actually quite clear.

It wasn't "It'd be fun to work with more female DMs".

It was "There's more male DMs, though I surely would like some more females."

Sure I wrote that, but it has nothing to do with whom we pick as a DM candidate. And I would like to have more female DMs, there's absolutely no doubt about that. I'd like them because they're fun to work with, and I can relate to girls in different ways (same applies to many other female players, too). The point is, I don't support quota ways to get my wish done, which is what you insist I do. You even suggest I push some hidden agenda here to get more female DMs on the team. But you couldn't be more wrong. I want those female DMs to be picked just the way we pick male DMs, preferably without knowing their gender at all. I want good DMs, regardless of gender and in the reality we don't get 50/50 division. That's an ideal, that would be very nice to achieve one day, via girls starting to play more and getting more active. Gonna be years and years, and probably will never happen on Amia, anyway. But it's a nice ideal, regardless.

But we start doing quotas here on Amia over my dead body.

Mago, that still doesn't change the fact that so far...

n = 1

Let's say there's 20 DMs on the team, that's 5% of the preference.

n = 19 have not declared (or whatever the number of DMs are).

You're still statistically speaking, lacking a great deal of evidence other than one DM for your assertion.

soundofastream wrote:

Mago, that still doesn't change the fact that so far...

n = 1

Let's say there's 20 DMs on the team, that's 5% of the preference.

n = 19 have not declared (or whatever the number of DMs are).

You're still statistically speaking, lacking a great deal of evidence other than one DM for your assertion.

Mr Mago wrote:

(these are completely subjective, and there's absolutely no empiric evidence to back them up)

Nekhy wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

What you wrote is actually quite clear.

It wasn't "It'd be fun to work with more female DMs".

It was "There's more male DMs, though I surely would like some more females."

Sure I wrote that, but it has nothing to do with whom we pick as a DM candidate. And I would like to have more female DMs, there's absolutely no doubt about that. I'd like them because they're fun to work with, and I can relate to girls in different ways (same applies to many other female players, too). The point is, I don't support quota ways to get my wish done, which is what you insist I do. You even suggest I push some hidden agenda here to get more female DMs on the team. But you couldn't be more wrong. I want those female DMs to be picked just the way we pick male DMs, preferably without knowing their gender at all. I want good DMs, regardless of gender and in the reality we don't get 50/50 division. That's an ideal, that would be very nice to achieve one day, via girls starting to play more and getting more active. Gonna be years and years, and probably will never happen on Amia, anyway. But it's a nice ideal, regardless.

But we start doing quotas here on Amia over my dead body.

If I haven't written it, I haven't suggested it.

There's no reading between the lines in these posts.

What I suggest (or insinuate, rather), can be read.

Quote:

Honestly this went from DC talk to some weird "battle of the sexes"

*Wears full plate of scented David Backham perfume to attract the women with plenty of groin protection and wields a +4 d-* I better stop there and skip to my level, shouldn't I?

What is it with this sexy stuff? Here's a fact: Women don't always get on with women and men don't always get on with men. Women sometimes prefer the company of men since they can't stand their own sex for their own reasons or just prefer males company over the other. Men would sometimes prefer to hang out with women to get away from any problems that there may be in the male department, so blah blah blah.

Doesn't really matter if there's more women in DM side or more men, you're just gonna have to wait until later on since you can't just snap your fingers and hope the scales will be balanced mainly due to the fact that they just won't be able to find the committed(spellcheck!) people to actually be a DM.

I was gonna add something more to this but I'll add it on later and spam a little.

I think we should talk about something way more important, like how god damn awsome Skeletor is.

The wimpy version of Frey? No way!

more like the awsome melee version of Frey.

hes so awsome he cant use heal potions.

You're wrong, Cory. He's so awesome he doesn't have to us Heal potions! :twisted:

Also, I do see Mago's point, in a way, though I don'treally believe it has anything to do with Miss Feminism, also known as Mother Goose, trying to create her own amazon empire. There may have been added females over males of the same skill, I don't know, but if there has, perhaps those girlies have a particular, personal skill that the male counterpart didn't. Like... Well I wouldn't know, I've only ever really played a lot, and not even a lot, but some with Khylaria, of the female DMs, and I'm not sure perversion would classify as a needed skill for a DM. <.<

Anyways, what I don't understand, is the not hiring of what to a lot of people seem like obvious choices for DMship. I suppose some of them have a record, but it can't be all of them. Sure, some don't want to DM, but again, can't be all of 'em.

I had a point before I went all ADD... Oh, right. I don't give a rat's ass, 'cause I don't see it having an effect that I think wouldn't be the same, had there been more male players on the team.

Pfft. *shrug* Women in postions of power does not bother me. In fact women are IMO more qualified...generally. Women are -generally- better in dealing with social situations than men, are -generally- better at listening, -generally- better at communicating and are -generally- better at controlling their tempers & pride.

As a DM you must be able to deal with the whiny, lying kids who cheat at playing games with their friends. Sounds like a job for SuperMom/SuperDad, if you ask me.

Teufel Eldritch wrote:

Pfft. *shrug* Women in postions of power does not bother me. In fact women are IMO more qualified...generally. Women are -generally- better in dealing with social situations than men, are -generally- better at listening, -generally- better at communicating and are -generally- better at controlling their tempers & pride.

Having female DMs isn't a problem. I agree with that. Even insinuating that it would be a problem, is pretty retarded.

However. There have been (to me) a few suspectable DM assignments in the past, female ones, that kind of made me wonder just how the DMs went about assigning their DMs...

These aren't individuals which I will mention in public, but should any DM have any questions in regards to that, I can elaborate on it in private.

Dakotaen wrote:

Anyways, what I don't understand, is the not hiring of what to a lot of people seem like obvious choices for DMship. I suppose some of them have a record, but it can't be all of them. Sure, some don't want to DM, but again, can't be all of 'em.

You can always propose them to Nekh or Tormak or so if you think ppl are overlooked.

Worst thing that can happen is it gets ignored.
Best thing happening is the person gets DM
And if none of those happens, the thread the DM's have in forum probably boost attention to your friend a bit and he might receive some more DC's as the DM's are focussing on him a bit more then normal.

Teufel Eldritch wrote:

...and are -generally- better at controlling their tempers & pride.

I'll agree to your post, up untill this part. :lol:

belgianbonzai wrote:

Dakotaen wrote:

Anyways, what I don't understand, is the not hiring of what to a lot of people seem like obvious choices for DMship. I suppose some of them have a record, but it can't be all of them. Sure, some don't want to DM, but again, can't be all of 'em.

You can always propose them to Nekh or Tormak or so if you think ppl are overlooked.

Worst thing that can happen is it gets ignored.
Best thing happening is the person gets DM
And if none of those happens, the thread the DM's have in forum probably boost attention to your friend a bit and he might receive some more DC's as the DM's are focussing on him a bit more then normal.

I've always had the distinct impression that the team didn't take recommendation, applications or anything like either of the two, from anyone but other DMs. I might be wrong, though. *Shrug*

Mr Mago: Did not mean to suggest that you had a prob with women in power. So don't take it that way.

We don't have a system for DM recommendations or applications, and we don't actively encourage them. It doesn't really help, because we're generally well aware of the players that we know well enough to decide they'd be capable DMs. The only consequence is hurt feelings after rejection, I guess. That said, it's fine to bring up suggestions. It's not like we cover our eyes or refuse to discuss the candidate because (s)he was recommended.

Teufel Eldritch wrote:

Mr Mago: Did not mean to suggest that you had a prob with women in power. So don't take it that way.

I know, I know. Just thought it would be good to clarify that women are as capable as men, and vice versa, should anyone be close-minded and view genders and their differences/similarities conservatively.

Selmak wrote:

Sounds like a job for SuperMom/SuperDad, if you ask me.

Dude... PC? Cut out the Dad; none of us have those anymore...

Maybe it's just me but I prefer women before men. :shock:

That's why you were banned from Kohlingen.

Well, I have just one thing to say to this thread...

I would like to remind everyone that Amia is NOT a democracy. The server does NOT belong to you, therefore you MUST abide by the DMs' and Admins' decisions. There is nothing else to it. If they want to have a woman DM team, that's their decision. If they want all of the DCs to go to women, again, that's their decision. IMO, it kind of is favouritism, though I haven't seen any here, at all. But it's their decision, not anyone else's.

All of you who come in here and whine...Your questions and points really don't matter much, since in the end it's the DM and Admin team that decides everything.

In short - Amia is not a democracy. The DMs and Admins have the final say, period, whether for good or for ill, and no matter how much you argue the point it's not going to change that.

Besides, the "women get everything" argument is stupid. Get over it, people. :roll:

Quote:

Besides, the "women get everything" argument is stupid. Get over it, people. Rolling Eyes

Boobies!

Tysonm1 wrote:

Boobies!

Liar.

I leave for work and come back to find the topic got side tracked off my badassery...I think it should be locked

This conversation is absurd.

Don't you all know that I was Head DM for some time, and that being gay, I in fact strove to eliminate all the icky females, and bring aboard moar hawt sexay guys? And that the number one condition to getting off....er.....on...the team, was that I required nekkid cam time?

Foolish players, thinking that it's females who've been getting the special treatment.

:roll:

On the off chance anyone is dumb enough to *actually* think I am being serious with this post.....well.....if you think it's true, you're an idiot. That is all.

Jesus, even a split topic need splitting.

Would you guys stop going off topic all the bloody time and stay on the main point of the topic. If you want to discuss something else other then what the topic of the thread is about, make a new bloody thread.

Are you that scatterbrained or something?

Cori wrote:

This conversation is absurd.

Don't you all know that I was Head DM for some time, and that being gay, I in fact strove to eliminate all the icky females, and bring aboard moar hawt sexay guys? And that the number one condition to getting off....er.....on...the team, was that I required nekkid cam time?

Foolish players, thinking that it's females who've been getting the special treatment.

:roll:

On the off chance anyone is dumb enough to *actually* think I am being serious with this post.....well.....if you think it's true, you're an idiot. That is all.

You count as a girl for being gay!

Oh wait, what was that, Selvec? (Sorry, I really had to. I really, really had to.)

Last edited by corypx on Tue, Oct 20 2009, 0:56 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Jesus, even a split topic need splitting.

Would you guys stop going off topic all the bloody time and stay on the main point of the topic. If you want to discuss something else other then what the topic of the thread is about, make a new bloody thread.

Are you that scatterbrained or something?

maybe our master plan was to try and derail it so DMs could have a reason to lock this stupid and pointless thread because they wont otherwise for some odd reason.

thats my open comment on what will come become this topic if it does not die soon.

Last edited by Xaviera on Tue, Oct 20 2009, 0:41 AM, edited 2 times in total.

Cori, it is clear that your influence persists in the appointment of DMs in the emergency services (jameslocke, mahtan) - everyone knows gay guys love men in uniforms (and leather, and indian chiefs). And clearly the females are here for you to talk fashion with!

And now, back to the original topic....

BloodNAshes wrote:

it's pretty damned clear no one on this server trusts anyone else a whit, given that every single policy revolves around players being suspicious of the DMs, DMs being suspicious of the players, and of course, players being suspicious of other players.

Wyjyn wrote:

The advantage of the epic loot system is that you dont need to justify it to anyone, your character beats the creature and you get the loot. It is actually far closer to how it works in PnP. Dice roll = loot. Good system, I would actually probably prefer it as the only system.

In any system run by humans there will be inequities and even corruption. I know there were some serious issues with favouritism in the past, but compared to the things that used to go on, the present system is practically squeaky clean.

I personally dont think that someone should be able to kill the fire giant king over and over and get fancy doodads just for mindless mouse-mashing, but I realize this is a 'heroic fantasy' game and that's kind of the point. I will never be able to buy epic loot at auction, but I at least have the consolation that any reasonable DC request I make will likely be granted, provided I am fairly clear and give a bit of a backstory and some supporting RP.

[EDIT: I have spoken to people who have logged on for days on end with literally no purpose other than to grind bosses in the hope of getting one particular uberloot item to drop. If anything is 'abuse', that is.]

We have two systems in place. If you dont like the DC system, kill bosses. If you dont want to kill bosses, use DCs. The issue of DC fairness aside (due to DM & player logged hours, availability, timezones, sampling bias, etc.), these two systems should cover most peoples requirements. They support each other and, between them, should cover most peoples needs.

We aim to please the audience, whether they want to rant and whine, or get the topics locked.

Edit: Oh! post appeared after the request for a lock! Will this topic lead anywhere now? Stay tuned!

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