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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

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Qirlan's psyche, it doesnt actually say anything about how he IC obtains the golem

Neither do the sourcebooks, really, though. Also, qirlan is intuitive rather than sensing. He doesnt go 1,2,3 but is a bit more..artistic..with the weave. Isaac Newton used to read alchemy recipes into bible passages, good luck explaining that with 1,2,3. I think my point is that if you 'comprehend' it, then I have failed as a roleplayer. Qirlan has 42 Int, you cannot comprehend him and neither can I. I was sort of going for something a bit more artistic I guess, you know...on a roleplay server? Qirlan is not a scientist, wizard /= scientist. It doesnt have to all be explained, it is better not.

Anyway, this conversation doesnt really serve any more purpose: I dislike the DC request system, my experiences of it are negative and a few others have similiar. Probably not a huge amount, maybe 20% or less of people that have ever used it. The good thing is that I dont have to use it to get powerful gear, if you make epic loot DM related I would have to and amia would be the suck.

Wyjyn wrote:

The good thing is that I dont have to use it to get powerful gear, if you make epic loot DM related I would have to and amia would be the suck.

Agreed. While not perfect, the systems we have in place seem to do the job better than anything else that could reasonably be implemented.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Honestly, my view has not changed at all from the start of the thread ...

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Given that the issue of 'favoured lists' has been largely addressed

I dont understand your meaning?

TormakSaber wrote:

I can name three requests just tihs week that got passed for players who... do not have spotless mutual pasts with the DM team, I'll leave it at that. They have the DCs, the request was good, the RP is supporting it. It wasn't an argument, they were held to the same standards everyone else is.

And I can assure you, they are not friends of DMs, nor are they female.

xordae wrote:

I'm not a fan at all of these forum DC stories either, but I got my (censored) together and wrote a few, and so far I got every item I've requested. Excluding one or two where I dropped the idea before completion.

TormakSaber wrote:

And I will consistently stand by the fact that we are not biased to women. There are no e-pussiers, no white knights on the DM team. I've easily passed men and women's requests, people who I hate's requests, pretty much damn well everyone on the server.

TormakSaber wrote:

it's not unlikely that a DM's requests are more likely to be well put together than a random player of the entire server. DMs do not get free passes by any rate, their requests are not automatically approved at all. But I think it's the nature of the beast that a DM is more likely to put forth the effort required to create a successful request.

DM requests do get denied and I think the fact that they get denied period is evidence that we're not biased to ourselves.

Stealth_Vicious wrote:

i made my first request, and was shot down hard, for reasons i understand now (character was part undead)

IronAngel wrote:

We didn't deny it. You just didn't want it, anymore.

I find this topic a bit alike to presenting evidence of evolution to a hardcore creationist. Amusing read, nonetheless.

I find this more the entire forum coddling a bitching petulant six yearold.

If you have a request to make that will display part or parts of the story of your character that you do not want to allow other players to know, just write it on a PM to a DM or two.

I did this with Gers shortly after I left the server for the break I am currently on. I explained what I have planned for my characters for when I get back playing, asked if it would be okay, gave examples of when it worked before, he sent to the other DMs, they talked about it and they disapproved the request.

I am a girl.

I am friends with some DMs - or used to be, since I distanced myself willingly from many of them because it is awkward and I was accused of being a favorite of DMs a long time ago.

Oh, and I also am part of the group of the oldest (in age) and older (in server time) players of this server.

And I also can be a very nasty whinner, as some players and even DMs noticed.

On the other hand, I made other requests that are on the forums that I was asked to work on in game even though I had already written something about it on the request itself.

I made the RP in game, but forgot to take screenshots. I have the chatlog, however, but I am yet to find it and check with the DMs to see if it will do. If it does not, I don't mind doing the RP all over again.

P.S.: The Request in question is Auron's Wing Attack widget, in case you are curious. To mention only one of many.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

555444333 wrote:

I find this more the entire forum coddling a bitching petulant six yearold.

You write as though you have never read any of your own posts or payed any retrospective attention to your own behaviour.

In regards to stealth vicious, that is the view I held originally as well until I actually started paying attention to the request forums. You can go on and on about it, but ultimately if you yourself pay attention to the request forums I am certain you will come to the same conclusions I have. In fact, I am confused why it is even an argument. I considered it a given that Women, DM and DM friends get things through easier. It actually was not meant to create a big issue, I thought everyone knew it already.

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I am friends with some DMs - or used to be, since I distanced myself willingly from many of them because it is awkward and I was accused of being a favorite of DMs a long time ago.

So basically, you are a female and friends with the DMs and already other players have accused you of being the subject of favouritism and would probably agree with the point I am making then? Your request was a pretty extreme request, to be honest, I would be suprised if it would pass for anyone. I dont actually care that much that the DMs have favourites, its the same on 'every' server. The benefit of amia is that there are OOC rules in place to limit how valuable being a DM favourite is. On that note, not so sure about DC requests allowing +5 items now either, but it is no big deal.

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I find this topic a bit alike to presenting evidence of evolution to a hardcore creationist. Amusing read, nonetheless

Dont make that comparison because the arguments here against me are not even close to science. You do this all the time, for instance the Mago argument about global warming, you use the ideology of science to make arguments rather than its tools. He was asking for an explanation as to why CO2 contributes to global warming and you just rammed arguments about the validity of science down his throat and how 'people that know what they are talking about know' without actually making mention to any of the ideas behind it whatsoever. I was actually on your side in the argument and even I saw it. In truth, you're the clergy.

Do I have to go through more pages tallying up accepted requests and genders before you will at least entertain the vague possibility that I am right? I never gave any reasons why it is the way it is, just that it is. Doesnt the DM team even have more females than males on it despite amia havine more males than females? These are the exact same sorts of statistics you quote all the time arguing against bias against women in the workplace. You selected those DMs because you favour them, and more of them are women then men. In truth, I am a consequentialist. Why you choose them is of no importance to me whatsoever, just that it is so. I dont care for the reasoning behind it in the least really, I just know that I am not in any favoured groups and subsequently using the request system is a bad idea for me and transfering that system onto the loot system would make amia a worse place to my mind. Basically, it would make amia like the old amia.

At least 'consider' the idea, even if you dont accept it. Take a glance over the request forums with the ideas I have presented in mind. Do people who are either female, DMs or DM friends seem to get a disproportionate amount of requests through the system relative to their player numbers. If you do that, you will at least see where I am coming from even if you dont agree it is indicative of favouritism.

IMHO, statistics in this case - even if you went through the forums - won't speak for much.

A large amount of requests are moved, so you don't get any confirmation et-al on those, and ultimately statistics of this nature are rather tricky.

To use the numbers you pulled somewhere in this thread (60%female, 40%male) - those numbers are hardly indicative, especially considering the array of other factors. Type of request (summon reskin, leto work, special race, special item), Requester in some cases (we're unlikely to give a full-blooded celestial PC to someone we don't know)

For a true bias you'd not only need to differentiate that, but you'd need a -far- higher difference. 20% is something that's very easily (and appropriately) attested to basic differences between the requests. A perfect 50/50 is simply a utopia that doesn't make sense.

Could simply be that during the time period you chose, females were making better requests. Or, alternatively, blokes were making worse requests. Pure coincidence.

If you want to call bias, I'd say go for at least a 50% differential amidst each request type.

Ultimately, though, statistics is silly, if only because we (as humans) still really can't grasp the concept of probability, chance, and the 'random' factor.

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In fact, I am confused why it is even an argument. I considered it a given that Women, DM and DM friends get things through easier. It actually was not meant to create a big issue, I thought everyone knew it already.

Except it's not... and we have a ton of people here showing you why it's not, and your only defense is "It is, because I say so... but I can't be arsed to show you why. You should just know so. And take my word as gospel."

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Do I have to go through more pages tallying up accepted requests and genders before you will at least entertain the vague possibility that I am right?

Yes, because that's what people to do prove a point and move beyond "random accusation".

when looking at DC requests people need to think about it

1)I'm sure that I am not the only person who has requested stuff that they know they would turn down but did it anyway.

2)maybe DM friends being thier friends ask befor they post about what they would pass, I know I have asked DMs about requests befor I posted them(see number 1)

3) maybe girls have more reason when making a requests.

Quote:

Doesnt the DM team even have more females than males on it despite amia havine more males than females?

BTW....

Nekhy 27850 Female
AlannaMolov 601 Female
Bobo_Underhill 2372 Male
Crowsterf 1948 Male
Gers 3033 Male
GothicSauce 777 Male
Hexx_stonebeard 406 Male
Infernal_Pain 3196 Male
IronAngel 12512 Male
jameslocke 2188 Male
Khylaria 1429 Female
Kjetta 4565 Male
Lalelilolu 3000 Female
Leggomi Eggolas 3951 Male
Mahtan Tasadur 2752 Male
Maias227 2254 Male
Nakomis Wolfen 637 Female
The Cobbit 2017 Male
TormakSaber 31196 Yeah right. You wish.
Transcendental Templar 2348 Male
WonWon 10194 Male
Yossarin 6165 Male
Ziacat 3029 Female

Omitted: Signe Johanson (Female), Straz Finster (Male). Reasons: both have not been around for months or years, Signe has expressed a desire to be removed from the team.
Numbers are just post counts.

6 Females, (1 omitted) : 7 Females total
16 Males (1 omitted): 17 males total

Me.

So... yeah. roughly 3x as many men as women on the DM team. Do you even look before you make your accusations, or do you just make them?

EDIT: Fuzzy maths., Called Zia a man. Fixed.

Anyway.. If you got a request denied because you refused to do the basic things asked, so you can get your request approved.. and then whine about not getting it approved?

Well that's like writing "It's a secret" on all the parts of a job application and then reporting them to the better business bureau.

Then again, certain people might be heavily bias.

Also, flamebaiting, trolls trolling trolls, etc.

Don't DMs also keep a list of people they like / dislike, that way it's transparent to all other DMs for bias (or used to, I seem to recall last time it was mentioned it hadn't been updated in a while, but I could be wrong).

Yes. We also keep track of every relationship every DM is in for the same reasons. Assuming said relationship is with another Amian.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Well that is great, but can the DMs even get wine stains out of carpets? Honestly Yurrell, you come across as such a sycophant. Are you trying to become a DM here?

Anyway, I did a search for EDK/EMD requests on the forums and recorded some results. Erring 'heavily' on the site of caution i recorded the following:

Male Success Rate: 60% (3 definite successes, 2 definite failures)
Female Success Rate: 86% (6 definite successes, 1 definite failure)

Females were significantly less likely to actually use the suggested topic naming system, so I probably missed heaps of successful female requests. I found some only by the contents of the post itself, not by the topic which is meant to be more specific. I was only interested in requests that definitely succeeded and had statements at the end like "done", etc.

Someone is going to begin considering this possibility by at least checking the request forums because Im not going to stop here. I will drag this on all the way to counting up every last request over the 44 pages only because of the manner in which my statement was dismissed. I will make this my doctorate thesis.

Wyjyn wrote:

Well that is great, but can the DMs even get wine stains out of carpets? Honestly Yurrell, you come across as such a sycophant. Are you trying to become a DM here?

Again, denigration. Such a wonderful means of debate. "Ahah! You disagree with me, therefore you must have ulterior motives!"

Or could it possibly be that I like the system as it is and recognise the large amount of effort they've put into making it as fair as possible?

No, that couldn't possibly be right, because what would Wyjyn have to complain about then?

Wyjyn wrote:

Male Success Rate: 60% (3 definite successes, 2 definite failures)
Female Success Rate: 86% (6 definite successes, 1 definite failure)

Oh, look at that difference ... we generally call that "Not Statistically Significant" since an increase of just one on anything can shift the percentage by as much as 20%.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Yes, but when you take it into account with my other statistics we are establishing a trend. In truth, there are not that many total requests anyway, many of the posts in the request forums arent really requests. I would say about 1/4 or less is actually a request. Also, those statistics would have been even more of a white wash if I had included requests that seemed to pass, or that I know passed from in game, but that didnt actually say they did.

Also, I have been more transparent and clearer with my reasoning than pretty well any argument against me. You didnt attack IronAngels arguments at all despite the fact he brought up no real proof. I dont mind IronAngel, but I will argue with him. You wont, becasue you are a sycophant. I spotted it ages ago, every argument you run can be soundly defeated with "yeah, but you would say that because you are a sycophant".

You have no motive to be in this conversation beside being a sycophant and attempting to win points.

Yurell wrote:

Again, denigration. Such a wonderful means of debate. "Ahah! You disagree with me, therefore you must have ulterior motives!"

Read your posts, they come across as though you are sucking up. You sound like one of those infomercial hosts or a politician asking a question to one of the people in his own party "Tell me, Mr Prime Minister, what have you been doing to ensure the system is as fair as possible?". It always gets denigrating remarks and a collective sigh from politicians of the opposing party, so you deserve them here too.

To be honest here, looking at that DM list, then looking at how often I see a DM present on teh server via the (1 DM) marker. Either all the DM's clammer on at one time of the day, when I'm asleep, or a lot of the DM's aren't DMing recently.

Is this the case? Because I frequently see a DM on, but usually it's the same DM every day at the same time.

TormakSaber wrote:

Yes. We also keep track of every relationship every DM is in for the same reasons. Assuming said relationship is with another Amian.

I relationship as in real life and/or romantic or can it just be PC and DM PC friendship of chars.

I kind of want to see this list of people they like / dislike in terms of me(who likes lil old me?)

Wyjyn wrote:

You didnt attack IronAngels arguments at all despite the fact he brought up no real proof.

No, I didn't. Why? Because I saw his evidence as you generated it.

Wyjyn wrote:

I spotted it ages ago, every argument you run can be soundly defeated with "yeah, but you would say that because you are a sycophant".

So my arguments with Tormak are ... because I'm a sycophant (sorry to keep bringing you into this, Tormak)? Every argument you bring up can be met with "Yeah, you form your opinion without evidence and refuse to conceded regardless of what is brought up against you."

Wyjyn wrote:

You have no motive to be in this conversation beside being a sycophant and attempting to win points.

And you've no motive except to insult mineself and the DM team.

Wyjyn wrote:

Read your posts, they come across as though you are sucking up.

Or because, as I already said, I genuinely agree? No that can't be it! DMs are horrible, evil people, who would agree with them? Am I being sarcastic? Yes.

Wyjyn wrote:

You sound like one of those infomercial hosts or a politician asking a question to one of the people in his own party "Tell me, Mr Prime Minister, what have you been doing to ensure the system is as fair as possible?". It always gets denigrating remarks and a collective sigh from politicians of the opposing party, so you deserve them here too.

You sound like a TV evangelist shouting against evolution (to steal Nekhy's example) regardless of what evidence is put against you.

I would be honoured someone spent the time writing 2 paragraphs denigrating me except they were really quite awful points.

Alot of DMs currently are busy with pressing RL matters. For example - Khylaria's off doing her ARMY thing on posting.

That said, there are significant factors which are going to make statistics useless.

How many female players are there on Amia?
How many male players are there on Amia?
How many of either group falls into the constant-RP groups (thus gets the DCs to request)
How many of either group falls into the constant-hunting groups? (thus lacks the DCs to request)
How many of either group make requests?
How many of either group post their requests publically?
How many of either group PMed their request to a DM?
How many of either group can make a reasonable request?
How many of either group makes an unreasonable request?
How many of either group...

You get the idea.

Statistics when combined with people is silly. And often results in the wrong answer, too. So much so, that people have wrongly been sent to jail for the results of statistics and numbers.

Hate to say it, but we as a race really do suck at quantifying people, actions, and behaviours into mathematically measurable circumstances.

Don't bother collecting statistics if you're not actually going to collect statistics. You do an inaccurate forum search for one specific type of request that's only been around for a short period of time Amia wise, admit to ignoring many requests (but say that their omittance only proves your point further .... ???) and ignore any ...

You know what? Nevermind. You don't care, you're not reading. I don't give up, but you're not interested in learning that you may actually be wrong.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Well I never really liked or thought the stastics were particularly important really, I only went through them because Yurrell kept going on about it. The requests I ignored were often by females and were requests like "Can you change my EDK wing colour" etc, I dont think it would be fair to include them and if I had it would have actually been an even bigger blowout. Check page 8 of the request forum and look yourself. However, I do agree with WonWon and have thought the same from the start. The stasticis I presented, while pretty accurate, are worth nothing to my argument to my mind for the reasons WonWon listed. I only did them to appease Yurrel. My argument, really, was that my experience, a word I used in the very first post if you look at it, of the system is that it is bias towards those groups and I dont like it at all. I dont want the system removed, nor do I want epic loot removed. Those two systems can remain 'exactly' as they are and I dont have a problem with them. The fact that you are still arguing seems to me that you are actually considering removing the epic loot system and replacing it with DM hand outs. DONT DO THAT.

Also, Yurrell you are grammatically wrong concerning your use of the term 'better' because you already stated doubt in the sentence and hence would be creating a sort of double negative if you used it as you suggested.

"Show me this 'better' request" would have worked but saying "Wyjyn, we've no evidence that your request was 'better' other than your constant complaints about the DMs being biased" implies doubt even without the inverted commas, and hence when you placed inverted commas over the word 'better' you implied that the validity of the word itself in referring to the argument in either direction was in doubt.

See, "Wyjyn, we've no evidence that your request was better other than your constant complaints about the DMs being biased" would have worked just as well for your meaning, because it implies what you later said you meant and that there is some form of objecitivity that exists.

If you were to say "Wyjyn, we've no evidence that hamlet was 'better' than MacBeth other than your constant complaints about MacBeth", you would be implying that the manner in which any judgements could be made concerning which play was better are uncertain and subjective.

Wyjyn wrote:

Also, Yurrell you are grammatically wrong concerning your use of the term 'better' because you already stated doubt in the sentence and hence would be creating a sort of double negative if you used it as you suggested.
[...]
If you were to say "Wyjyn, we've no evidence that hamlet was 'better' than MacBeth other than your constant complaints about MacBeth", you would be implying that the manner in which any judgements could be made concerning which play was better are uncertain and subjective.

Oh, because the existence of subjectivity and the doubt of accuracy can't both occur at the same time?

Take it to PMs, you two.

Yea, no cybering in the forums.

WonWon wrote:

Take it to PMs, you two.

I'll just drop it.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

To be honest here, looking at that DM list, then looking at how often I see a DM present on teh server via the (1 DM) marker. Either all the DM's clammer on at one time of the day, when I'm asleep, or a lot of the DM's aren't DMing recently.

Is this the case? Because I frequently see a DM on, but usually it's the same DM every day at the same time.

I'd say not every DM is on every day ... I see times with 3 or 4 DMs, but like you fro what I've seen it's hovering around the 0-1 mark.

Wyjyn wrote:

Do I have to go through more pages tallying up accepted requests and genders before you will at least entertain the vague possibility that I am right? I never gave any reasons why it is the way it is, just that it is. Doesnt the DM team even have more females than males on it despite amia havine more males than females? These are the exact same sorts of statistics you quote all the time arguing against bias against women in the workplace. You selected those DMs because you favour them, and more of them are women then men. In truth, I am a consequentialist. Why you choose them is of no importance to me whatsoever, just that it is so. I dont care for the reasoning behind it in the least really, I just know that I am not in any favoured groups and subsequently using the request system is a bad idea for me and transfering that system onto the loot system would make amia a worse place to my mind. Basically, it would make amia like the old amia.

At least 'consider' the idea, even if you dont accept it. Take a glance over the request forums with the ideas I have presented in mind. Do people who are either female, DMs or DM friends seem to get a disproportionate amount of requests through the system relative to their player numbers. If you do that, you will at least see where I am coming from even if you dont agree it is indicative of favouritism.

First of all, the team having more female DMs is untrue. There's more male DMs, though I surely would like some more females. But we don't do gender quotas here.

Secondly, the stuff you quote as "truth" has nothing to do with the reality. We've been through the reasons many times before in this topic. You're apparently forming this imaginary Amia in your head, putting together pieces of evidence as you'd like it to be, in order to be able to criticise Amia for everything and anything.

Well, my dearest Wyjyn. There's plenty for you to criticise, how about you focus on some of the more real things? If you want to be taken seriously, that is. Right now, you just sound like a raving creationist going on about how the earth was created in 7 days, 6000 years ago.

That's where the creationist comparison comes from, it has nothing to do with science here. I don't even bother arguing with them, because no amount of arguments will make them believe that their fantasies are wrong. And that seems to be the case here, too. No amount of arguments, presenting statistics or anything would apparently convince you that this particular problem is only between your ears.

And that's fine by me. It is amusing, after all.

My two cents:

Of course there are MORE males then females. That's a gimme with MOST RP games period.

I never actually saw females being treated any differently than males...but then again I don't see everything so.

If there is a list of disliked/liked people for each DM, I for one can say I am probably on the dislike lists of ALOT of the DMs, save a couple actually.

Actually I think as opposed to the DMs plotting to approve or disapprove based on personal feelings, I think it's a random coincidence involving a liked/disliked player, and what DM is on at the time.

I'll give a personal example:

I asked for a summon reskin change. It took me actually only a few days and it was rather simple. It was approved and rather quickly (by James Locke)

Second request was for a my character to become a deity(I think big..lol). It was discussed and denied, no problem. The response was in a fair amount of time.

Third request was simply information to make a build. Haven't got a response in weeks(because I asked ONE particular DM).

NOW....there can be ANY number of reasons why it has't gotten a response and I wouldn't know. He could be on vacation. I could be on his list. Maybe in his long line of requests and messages it got lost. Who knows?

What I do know is this: I guess it took me some time to figure that DMs ARE people. They have people they like and dislike, people they like to watch play and others they don't. What?! Am I to FORCE myself on someone who doesn't want to watch me RP or reward me? And who's to blame for that fact but myself?

So I'll finish off with this....Wyjyn, as much as you may be right, and you may feel justified in how you feel...THIS is NOT the way to go about it, take it from someone who has went this route. You simply can't be a whiny, jerky, arse(not that you are but I was...lol), and then expect anyone to want to play with you. I learned this the hard way....but I'd like to think my forum attitude has changed in some ways as well as my gaming. Rather then snowball the arguement into something worse like I did, you might want to attempt to mend the broken fences and simply roll with punches.

PS I STILL have my same thoughts on Ultri...that is all.

PSS Too bad there isn't way to make others temporary DMs for a day. Somehow I think it'd give people a more true idea of what DMing is like...because reading these things I am supposing it's not all the FUN and GAMES everyone thinks it is.

Actually read all of this and was about to make those statistics out of all 44 pages but then was faced with the problem that I don’t know who’s female and who’s male out of the general requestants of early Amia and so. It wouldn’t have proved anything because I would be ignoring the requests I can’t see anymore as everyone has already pointed out. Problem with speaking only based on personal experience is that it’s not omnipresent. Your experience clearly contains more cases of female requests being approved than male. Maybe in someone else’s experience there have been more male requests approved than female. I honestly don’t know, I just read the request itself and only consider if they’re good or bad and I have read each and every one ever posted since I joined.

Never noticed any favoritism, however. All requestants were evaluated based on the value of their requests and those who didn’t fit the standard were asked additional questions based on the rarity of request. Some were able to provide, others not, but I haven’t seen a single request that was approved just because [insert absurd random motive here like being female and liking green] Even the example you did provide wrote everything that was asked of her and answered questions.

From what I understood and saw from your own request that left you so dissatisfied because it never reached a finalization and delivery was that you preferred to do your research and role-play online. That’s all wonderful to a point. I don’t see how you can blame anyone for wishing to actually see the work you’ve put into the request. I know on some level you wish they could imagine because you’ve been around for enough time so that they figured you’re a good RPer but if they did do that, THAT would have been favoritism and somebody else would rise up and be upset about it. I’m sure nobody enjoys reading lengthy requests from people they’ve already okayed in this mind but it’s a necessary procedure.

I rp on forums too and that’s all apps apps and more apps. I like the fact that you need to write in order to get anything out of the ordinary. I would honestly prefer it if there was no more epic loot (despite having characters able to get it) and it became a DM award, but I can see how that would be a problem for those who play at unfortunate hours, I guess. That and I don’t like PvP in any shape or form so don’t require the best of the best of equipment since I do my best to avoid it. So I’m biased and can’t say much in this department.

Bottom line, everyone’s doing their best to keep everything as fair as possible. No one is perfect and there might have been that one extra question they asked person A that they didn’t ask person B for basically the same thing. If there’d be anything I’d be upset about when thinking Amia is the lack of consideration and cooperation that flows around here. We’re all humans with some sort of life beyond this game, and we all have our different likes, opinions and problems. Strive to work together and understand instead of poke and accuse without considering all implications.

That’s basically all I had to say.

Speaking from my experience to answer Wyjyn: my judgement is not notably affected by whether you're a DM, a DM's friend or female. At least not in the way you suggest; in fact, I hold DMs to a higher standard, if anything.

A female DM has recently been working months in game to get a golem reskin. A male DM wanted an EMD reskin, and I presented questions about details I'd generally care nothing about, to see him work for it. Another male DM has had several special race requests declined both before and after becoming a DM.

I have no "DM friends" I would treat preferentially on any other basis than their RP quality and adherance to the rules. In fact, it's funny that you should use this as an argument in your own case: you're easily in my top 15-20 of favorite players on Amia. If my likes and dislikes had signifigant impact, I'd be more likely to approve requests for you. And on the other side of the coin, I've recently pushed the approval of a somewhat unusual request for a player whose RP I personally can't stand, at all.

My personal experience with female requests is this: I try not to pay attention to who's making the request, in the first place. There are a few criteria: has the person broken rules? Does this request have anything to do with the RP I've witnessed in game? Is the person a social RPer or a powergamer (both of which make poor special race PCs)? I don't even know the genders of most player.

I don't deny your observation: that DMs, DM friends and females might get more requests approve, on average. I have no statistics, I don't know, but it's not unbelievable. However: the conclusions you draw from this don't seem convincing. DMs and "DM friends" certainly don't have an easier time getting their requests approved. If anything, I hold people I know to be good RPers to a higher standard - one reason I asked more of your request, too. But common intuition tells us that DMs probably make better requests than players, on average. Their creativity, talent and understanding of Amia is the reason they were chosen for the position, after all. As such, it's no surprise that the DMs would make friends with other good role-players. As for females, there are many factors to affect the correlation, even if there is one. It may be there, but I seriously doubt it's as straightforward as "You are (percieved as) female -> Your requests are approved more easily." Females might make more requests to begin with, they might be more inclined to listen to feedback and adapt their request in the process, they might simply be better, or any number of reasons. If the correlation exists.

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I don't deny your observation: that DMs, DM friends and females might get more requests approve, on average.

Hear that, lads? Sex change! Weeee~!

P.S to Geld : Shush!

Anyways, I've played for a good while and I don't see anything actually wrong with these requests coming in and out. Except of course the ones that don't seem to look right in any shape or form (Says the one who knows bugger all about lore. Harr harr harr!). In all of my time of playing on Amia, I have only ever actually made -two- requests(I think, ignoring the portrait change one for my SD and Ranger) that were to do with half-Devil and, well... half-Devil(second attempt) but were both unfortunatly put down due to lack of lore-wise requirements which I humbly took like a slap across the face and gave up on it, but later on I just came to look on it as a useless thing to take it too harshly and just keep on playing while trying to think of the lore to see it through that it does actually get accepted in the future.

DM's on this server are pretty much perfect as they are, if I do say so myself. Some lay eggs, some have boobs, some don't have boobs, some have cookies, some are strict, some are cuddly, and they all have a nice little personality to them forum-wise. And in my 'O' so honest opinion, sex doesn't have any actual part in requests and stuff, naturally they're just more mature enough than us males to bring up all the necessary information without getting into a bitch fit (Or unleast most of them), either that or they're just DnD crackers. Moving onto the men! Actually, no point, since this is probably going to keep going on and on until the DM's finally give up and go inside to bake cookies. But I might just add this in for a lovely joyful springful laugh!

Males and females have different bits 'n' bobs(boobs!) and are both different in the way stuff works and how they think/feel towards certain topics. DM's are made up of males and females who all chat 'n' stuff about requests(atleast I think they do, I still need a VIP pass into their base of operations.) in a teacher-like fashion regardless of the gendar of that specific DC victim. So yeah, there's a difference towards what goes on between males and females but I believe that's mainly because of natural reasons with how we grow up.

Blah blah blah men and women blah blah different growth blah blah blah get along and nibble cookies!

*Covers Yurell's keyboard in glue.* I did that due to the feeling that this is going to turn into a topic that Drowsies know all too well a while ago. >.>

Tysonm1 wrote:

they all have a nice little personality to them forum-wise

Haha, quite true. We should draw charicatures of some DMs and their posting habits. I was acutally thinking of ways to capture the essence of some DMs in but one or two lines, the other day. Quite amusing.

Hmm, I think Uce would be depicted with a bottle of booze and drooling over they keyboard after falling asleep.

Pity I can't draw or I totally would do that.

Is there any proof what so ever that these 'females' are females in RL anyways?? This is still online.

Personally I don't give a flying rats ass if someone thinks I am a male or female or a male pretending to be female or a female pretending to be a male or a gay male playing female characters who likes to get dressed in character in RL.

If someone is so paranoid about all this RPG online favoritism.. because the same inaccurate statistics apply to most games in general, they should probably quit playing online games. >_<

Plus stop being an ass to Yurell please.

There is a bit too much DM bashing going on lately.. and I'm not being a kissass. I just think DM's should have some respect.

I've constantly observed the request forums. I was a DM and participated fairly heavily in the request process. I revamped multiple times, the request format (in the dm forums) to try and increase the speed of request completion, as well as simply make it easier for the dm team to deal with them. I've made tons of requests.

As a non-DM, I still regularly read the request forum, both to see what sort of power levels are being approved, and because i like reading the stories involved with such requests.

And I've been doing these things since 2005.

I have noticed one single trend which I would (and have) called negative. It is my observation that sometimes - not always, but sometimes - players who are assumed to be "less liked", generally because they are whiny jackasses or repeat rulebrreakers, do get asked for more RP behind certain requests than some other people. I've seen it more with reskin requests than anything, though I'm far too lazy to do a search to find examples. Plus it's hard when a lot of requests get moved to the dm forums.

But I have not noticed ANY trend towards denying those people outright, and ABSOLUTELY no trend to approving female requests over male ones. If I HAD noticed even the slightest such trend, I'd be up in arms over it. Ask any dm who worked with me, or any who might feel like going through the dm forums to check for themselves. When I DM'd, I was a crusader (burn them with FIRE style) for fair and equitable treatment. I defended and rewarded (for good rp) players whom I HATED with a passion. And I questioned, and denied, players and even DM's whom I liked a lot.

So if I'd noticed any trend, I'd have raised serious hell. First with the dm's I know and am friendly with, and the Head DM whom I also happen to be friendly with, all the way up to the server owner (who probably has no clue who I am anyway, but I'd try him nonetheless).

Oh...as a note, I don't think I've had any requests denied. Why? Maybe because, having been so active with player requests, I have a decent idea of what sort of power level is acceptable, and if in doubt, I usually ask BEFORE making the request, and finally, because most of my requests tend to have like a page or more (in MS Word) of story to go with them. That said, in the olden days (ie/ years ago) I did get some requests approved with minimal RP to them, simply a good story instead. Like, one. Maybe 2. But that would be years ago, from dm's who no longer even play on Amia, let alone DM here.

Nowadays, I don't get enough DC's to really make any requests. The last couple requests I made were using up old dc's from...years ago. I don't even think I've gotten a dc from Tormak, who by far is the dm I'm most friendly with (if I have gotten one, sorry for forgetting!). Personally, I could use a slight bit less ANTI-favouritism (because that's what I've seen the most - DM's going out of their way to avoid any chance of favouritism claims, by being less likely to deny requests from players they hate, and less likely to DC reward players they get along really well with.)

You don't get no DCs from me, Cori-dahlin, because I only ever see you at those godawful early morning hours. You bitch! :evil:

Wyjyn wrote:

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I am friends with some DMs - or used to be, since I distanced myself willingly from many of them because it is awkward and I was accused of being a favorite of DMs a long time ago.

So basically, you are a female and friends with the DMs and already other players have accused you of being the subject of favouritism and would probably agree with the point I am making then? Your request was a pretty extreme request, to be honest, I would be suprised if it would pass for anyone.

Dear, mind that being "accused" of something, does not mean that it truly is.

Some of the DMs in question are no longer part of this server.

Some still are but are not DMs anymore either.

EDIT: Mind the main message of my post: if you want to keep something secret from players' eyes, PM the same request to a DM or two. And, they always request more information or more roleplaying, depending on what is being requested.

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Plus stop being an ass to Yurell please.

I'm not, I still love him/her in all ways possible on Amia. =3 But, look back a bit on another topic on these forums and you'll see what I'm talking about, it's not specifically being a finger of death being pointed towards him/her, it's just other reasoning.

I still love Amia 'n' the forums for what it is and nothing is gonna change my mind no matter how much favouritism goes around, aslong as I get to shout "BOOBS" from the top of my keyboard settings and are capable of snuggling atleast something to keep my soul in place(Not in -that- way you perverts!). =3

It's defendable to be an ass to Yurell, because he feels a need to debate everything he can into the ground. :wink:

As for DCs, though, if I cared enough about getting them, I'd stop playing with any and all characters played by a DM. Apparently that's one way to up your chance of getting them. Sadly, I might add.

The problem I have with DC items requests is not the DM's, favoritism, preferential treament, bias or whatever but my own self. I lack the necessary writing skill to properly write up a story for a item. Not the staffs fault to be sure, but it does make me feel left out to a certain degree.

Teufel Eldritch wrote:

The problem I have with DC items requests is not the DM's, favoritism, preferential treament, bias or whatever but my own self. I lack the necessary writing skill to properly write up a story for a item. Not the staffs fault to be sure, but it does make me feel left out to a certain degree.

Don't feel left out. If you at least have a basic rp idea for how/why you "ICly" get an item, post that. It can be horribly badly written, and still get accepted, if the rp is there. And unlike my requests....pages of rp tend to be almost worse than something short sweet and to the point.

Besides, we have awesome players here. I'm sure many would be glad to offer help, suggestions, etc, for requests. I have pm'd players many times to offer exactly that - suggestions, typo corrections, feedback. As far as I know, all those people ended up getting their requests approved, whether they used my suggestions/advice or not.

It's OK to lack writing skills, btw. The story doesn't need to be in a fancy story format, though it's of course nice and a plus if it is. What essentially matters is, that the Why's and the How's are clear to us, and that we know some thinking went into the item. And that it's nicely paragraphed and the basics, of course.

I totally suck at creative writing, too.

My preferred vocabulary is far too technical to produce anything that would classify as "quality story", and I don't have the attention span to write several pages of fantastical stuff. So I put emphasis on the Why's and How's in other ways.

Cori wrote:

Teufel Eldritch wrote:

The problem I have with DC items requests is not the DM's, favoritism, preferential treament, bias or whatever but my own self. I lack the necessary writing skill to properly write up a story for a item. Not the staffs fault to be sure, but it does make me feel left out to a certain degree.

Don't feel left out. If you at least have a basic rp idea for how/why you "ICly" get an item, post that. It can be horribly badly written, and still get accepted, if the rp is there. And unlike my requests....pages of rp tend to be almost worse than something short sweet and to the point.

Besides, we have awesome players here. I'm sure many would be glad to offer help, suggestions, etc, for requests. I have pm'd players many times to offer exactly that - suggestions, typo corrections, feedback. As far as I know, all those people ended up getting their requests approved, whether they used my suggestions/advice or not.

I love writing! Though, naturally, it also depends on inspiration!

However, if I am writing something for someone, I will request a lot of information because I can be very perfeccionist. And I will bug you all the time, all to make sure the writing will be to your liking.

A long time ago, I did that with player when writing a story involving his PC and one of my retired PCs. And I tend to do it from time to time whenever there is participation of other PCs of other players in the stories I write.

You in general, by the way, since I know Teufeul's problem can be the problem of a couple of others.

The funny thing is, I have a planned DC request in the works that I am more putting out the request now but plan to still do a fair deal of RP linked to it, alongside anything the DMs wanna toss in before being able to recieve the item. ^_^

Truth be told, I prefer ticklists or informative summaries. I don't like reading stories on a computer monitor or in the forums, regardless of the quality of the contents. Some have different preferences, but I just want facts and to see you made an effort.

I try to give you both, on the very rare occasion, I bother to bug you guys with my DC typey stuff

Egads. I *only* started talking about DCs when this thread got split because I personally feel Amia needs to find a way to make XP gain that's more RP-centered equal, but preferably superior to, "hunting". I think there was maybe two posts on that and now it's 2 pages of arguing about ueberloot and whether or not requests get accepted because I mentioned in passing I hate ueberloot. Hence, I'm just going to reiterate my firm opinion that grinding needs to go, or at least be given a viable alternative, whether its through DCs, job system, scripted quests, regular DM events, and/or some kind of system set up where you can do "guard" work in hostile areas and get XP based on time there. Now, everyone can get back to arguing about getting their phat l00ts...

Split random DC stuff discussion

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