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I never claimed to represent something other than my own perspective.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

I have to say I'm larfing pretty hard at this though. Everyone is trying to figure out how to rope new folk into Amia and it's pretty damned clear no one on this server trusts anyone else a whit, given that every single policy revolves around players being suspicious of the DMs, DMs being suspicious of the players, and of course, players being suspicious of other players. I'm sure there's some proverb out there about fixing your home before inviting people over or something to that effect...

Laugh all you like, but the sort of it is, you're not in the DM chair and you don't understand why we have the attitudes we do towards cheaters and plyers who seek to manipulate the system for their own ends. I trust players, but the fact of the matter is that rules are required to enforce fairness among each other, because players will not be "fair" otherwise.

you cant blame the DMs being suspicious of the players, do you know all the bugs and exploits I see people using or just rule braking.

players cheat alot more then you guys think DMs have to stay on the ball I have reported afew things, like in Barak Tungstuk, Halls you have something called Ancestral Memorial Statue, you used to be able to spam it for near non-stop mobs for exp/gold and loot.

in my case I reported it to the staff, but what other players might to is hump the hell out of it and get rich.

Players cheat. There are rules, they will be broken, someone has to keep an eye on that.

That being said, RP happens too. Shake some more DC's at people, and the costs for things won't seem so refragulous.

Wyjyn wrote:

The thing is that like a week later this person requested a DC skin change. Her IC reason? Liked different colour summon. She didnt even get a challenge really, just insta-accepted.

Here's the original request. Having RP'd with that PC, and having been around at the time the request was made, I have to say that it was absolutely and perfectly in character for her.

Please also note the two pages of discussion and the story provided upon request by DMs.

OOooooh, I was there for that one. And yes, there was an IC reason she wanted it, and we found an IC method of doing it. Infact, there is a spell specificly for dragons that allows them to change type of dragons for the duration of the spell. It's also not out of the scope of possibility considering the spell usually only summons a red dragon (Even in the PnP version) though considering EPIC spells are always individually researched and tailored, there is nothing to say a mage can't summon a green dragon as opposed to a Red one (infact the current system relies on that fact.)

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Xaviera wrote:

Wyjyn wrote:

The thing is that like a week later this person requested a DC skin change. Her IC reason? Liked different colour summon. She didnt even get a challenge really, just insta-accepted.

Here's the original request. Having RP'd with that PC, and having been around at the time the request was made, I have to say that it was absolutely and perfectly in character for her.

I have no issue with it whatsoever personally beyond that I dont believe if I had made a request of that standard it would have passed. I would have been asked "Why does he like green? When did this behaviour start? How did he create the spell? What research did he do? etc". It is the bias that annoys me, nothing else.

This whole topic and re-reading through these old posts as well as the up to date request forums only further reinforces in my mind why I never use it. Where this topic really started was that someone suggested that epic items be given out in DM events. The reason I responded with this DC stuff was too point out that the current epic item method is a relief from all this nonsense. There mere idea of replacing the current epic loot system with a DM one just instantly hit an annoying note for me.

I suppose, in short: Her request was not better than mine, she got hers and I did not get mine at that time. I see this trend happening all the time on the request forums even though I will probably never make another request ever again. I dont want that system being applied to epic loot, because as far as I can tell it will be a system where some cute character will just own everyone due to being geared up.

Actually Wyjnn, a whole series of questions was asked.

"Why would a Prismatic color himself green?"

"How would he do so?"

"Again, why the heck would he do this? Just cause the mage has a fetish doesn't mean the dragon does."

"What about summoning an actual green dragon?"

These were things the DM team asked that player, and each other. The answers were given, and what was decided upon was acceptible.

Don't assume you know the whole story.

Edit: It also took about 18 days to get approved.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

I've read it heavily and knew the character in game, just because you OOC like stuff doesnt mean it is good and vice versa.

It wouldnt have worked for me and quite a few others, that is the whole issue.

Wyjyn, we've no evidence that your request was 'better' other than your constant complaints about the DMs being biased

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Yurell wrote:

Wyjyn, we've no evidence that your request was 'better' other than your constant complaints about the DMs being biased

Do you see how you put better in inverted commas? Why? BECAUSE IT IS SUBJECTIVE. How can a system refuse people based on subjectivity? That is all my whole point from the very beginning that the system has a subjective favouring of certain people which it hides by saying it judges objectively. That is the whole issue I dont want the epic loot system to have. The epic loot system works well because it is not really subjective, you beat the monster and roll the dice and get the loot. End discussion. I like it.

If the DMs had said "We didnt like your RP, so we are not accepting it" that is different than saying "your story is not good enough". The first one is subjective, the second suggests that my story had objective faults.

Well, it's not so much biased as common sense, in respect to the setting. If DM's were completely objective like some sorta computer like people mistakenly expect them to be, people would be complaining about all of the furries/vampires/16th Bald eagle/Gem Dragon Disciple they're be running around. And to a certain extent, they already do. It isn't as simple as "make up a good enough story and we'll have to like and approve it, regardless of the ramifications."

Now, call me crazy. But this entire argument seems subjective.

And quite a bit flamey, really. So, how about that uh.. children's ca- fantasy game, guise?

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Falling Spider wrote:

Now, call me crazy. But this entire argument seems subjective.

And quite a bit flamey, really. So, how about that uh.. children's ca- fantasy game, guise?

You're crazy.

I think that each of the three current systems (hunting, DC items, DM handouts) has flaws and each has things to recommend it. In general, they complement each other such that if one doesnt work for you, one of the others generally will.

If you dont have many DMs in your time zone, then you wont get many DCs or items from DM quests, so you have the hunting option for your uberloot. (And if you suck at builds, you're screwed.) Those who like to grind can get phat lewt without RPing much.

About the only other thing one could add would be XP for typing, a la Ravenloft (not saying we should, just that it's an option). One should definitely not get DCs for that, though.

So until someone writes an infallible RP-detecting/DC-awarding script or the DM/player ratio approaches 1:1, the current system for obtaining neat-o items seems to work passably well. (Please note that I'm not addressing any issues about awarding DCs or xp here, just how one goes about getting cool and unique toys.)

Wyjyn wrote:

If the DMs had said "We didnt like your RP, so we are not accepting it" that is different than saying "your story is not good enough". The first one is subjective, the second suggests that my story had objective faults.

As I understand it, they asked you to expand on your story, not say that it is crap. Of course, I may not understand it since you've provided no evidence.

Dev Disco wrote:

Nekhy wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

Am I very obviously not following most of the thread if I ask what on earth skins and requests have to do with Amia's mob difficulty?

Absolutely nothing, feel free to split where you think it should be split. I am not entirely sure where that tangent appeared, really.

I quick browse suggest I have better things to do than that... bejesus, does every thread derail into a "DMs do it wrong" rant these days?

I noticed the pattern too, Disco. Sadly.

Breaks my heart to see it happening and I just don't take a break from the forums too because I don't want to be too far behind on server updates and stuff when I get back playing. >.<

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Yurell wrote:

Wyjyn wrote:

If the DMs had said "We didnt like your RP, so we are not accepting it" that is different than saying "your story is not good enough". The first one is subjective, the second suggests that my story had objective faults.

As I understand it, they asked you to expand on your story, not say that it is crap. Of course, I may not understand it since you've provided no evidence.

What is the difference? Why are you even arguing against me, I have soundly defeated every last argument you have presented and you just keep coming back again and again ignoring it as though you haven't read a thing. In fact, I suspect that you only ever read the first sentence before responding.

The link is there, read the green request and the motive behind it. You placed inverted commas around the word better, thereby also adding to my argument that judging the 'quality' of any request is a flawed and extremely subjective premise and hence the system itself is. Now you are asking for a story over a year old, that was probably deleted and that I no longer care about as well as contrasting stories to show difference in quality that you already rejected as being truly possible by placing inverted commas around the word 'better', WHICH WAS MY POINT FROM THE START.

Wyjyn wrote:

What I dislike is that your standards are subjective yet have a clear objective affect.

Take an image of that sentence and put it as your desktop wallpaper before responding further, please.

Chill.

Wyjyn wrote:

Why are you even arguing against me, I have soundly defeated every last argument you have presented and you just keep coming back again and again ignoring it as though you haven't read a thing.

I can't recall even presenting an argument ... in fact, I have just checked and I have not beyond asking you to provide links, which you have failed to do. How about you look back and read? Point out in this thread where I've made an argument ... the closest thing to an 'argument' I've made is a request for links.

Wyjyn wrote:

The link is there, read the green request and the motive behind it.

And where is the link to your request?

Wyjyn wrote:

You placed inverted commas around the word better, thereby also adding to my argument that judging the 'quality' of any request is a flawed and extremely subjective premise and hence the system itself is.

Oh no, the commas were there because I doubted the veracity of your claim.

Wyjyn wrote:

Now you are asking for a story over a year old, that was probably deleted and that I no longer care about as well as contrasting stories to show difference in quality that you already rejected as being truly possible by placing inverted commas around the word 'better', WHICH WAS MY POINT FROM THE START.

No it wasn't. Your point from the start was:

Wyjyn wrote:

My expericen of the DC request system, and I have been watching it a while, is that three subgroups get requests through easier:

1. DMs
2. DMs friends
3. Females

And you have provided a grand total of ... one example! From our one data point, we can see that all women get their request through!

Wyjyn wrote:

What I dislike is that your standards are subjective yet have a clear objective affect.

Take an image of that sentence and put it as your desktop wallpaper before responding further, please.

You are being arrogant, condescending and self-righteous. You said you wouldn't accept statistics, you won't post evidence to back up your point even though others have against it. The only argument that you've stated that has any merit is is immediately above, since the rest of them have been "Mine was better than hers, mine didn't get through, therefore DM team is biased or women."

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Go to page 8 of the request forums, I have chosen that number for its connotation to electron configurations and nothing more. Look down the page and give a rough calculation of how many of the DC requests that were not moved were accepted and which of those were done by females alone.

My calculation roughly is as follows:

For Females:

Accepted Requests: 10
Easily Acceptable: 6
Failed Requests: 4

For Males:

Accepted Requests: 3
Easily Acceptable: 0
Failed Requests: 7
Easily Failed: 2

I would speculate that moved requests were 60% male/40% female. These may or may not have succeeded. When I say "easily" acceptable, I mean that the request is mundane and difficult to refuse, same in reverse for easily failed. If I did not know what sex a person was, I just missed them out. Furthermore, I was deliberately trying to err in the direction that more males were being accepted. My 'data' is all on page 8 of the request forums. It seems to me that the mere fact that so many of the posts are done by females suggests a favouring in itself. If you were to compare posts done by females on the request forums against their ration to male players, it would be an absolute blow out.

Anyway, I'm personally over this. Look over the request forums yourself, which is what I suggested from the start. Only reason I am even arguing is because of the potential possibility of DMs handing out epic gear and epic gear being removed from the bosses. Don't do that, and I dont have an issue.

44 pages, 3263 topics, gods know how many PMs ... and you provide a small sample size. Furthermore, you are arguing that this correlation is causation.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Yurell wrote:

44 pages, 3263 topics, gods know how many PMs ... and you provide a small sample size. Furthermore, you are arguing that this correlation is causation.

Do you demand your politicians know every last statistic relating to the economy since its establishment? You are being absurd, if you take your approach to 'anything' you can never act. Ever. There is no way I am going over that many, I dont know a single sociologist that would even consider that. In fact, dont you study history FFS!? Must be first year, must be.

I did what any sociologist would do, I randomly selected a portion and recorded some statistics based on that. Are you telling me that if an anthropologist interviews three people, that work is worth nothing in establishing details about a society!? I chose a page randomly. Do you expect me to seriously do all those topics from start to finish? I chose a page randomly and it supported my argument. What this comes down to is that you thought I wouldnt do it, I did, and now the whole thing is backfiring hard on you.

PS: You know nothing about phyiscs because you dont have every last speck of data. So you are wrong whenever you say anything about physics.

^^^why your logic sucks.

I've read though most of the topic, and just because i want to chime in. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with Wyjyn, but i will say what I've notice about dc request and such. when i was new to amia, it was really cool when i found out about it. then i made my first request, and was shot down hard, for reasons i understand now (character was part undead), but at the time i really would have like more discussion on the matter. then made my second request, was shot down again. that time i got more info of why, so it wasn't as bad, yet it still discouraged me.

for a long time i didn't really care about the dc's and made in game work arounds for my special character request and such, which hurt me in the long run because it took away from my original characters concepts (all my characters were created for short stories i create b4 they went ingame). for example, my good Dhampir ranger became a good tiefling ranger just so i could expand on the character itself, the roleplay of it, because i could not get the DM's consent to play such a thing. but now after 2 years of playing on amia, I'm getting things approved, i understand whats needed, and whats fawned upon.

i see though where Wyjyn says certain people get things approved (though not in the same exact way he does), it seemed that way to me too for a while, though they just understood the system better, or got lucky. to avoid such things in the future. perhaps better explanations for rejections and/or approvals, some comments on dc request come off a harsh or too simple. and maybe some sort of official acceptance/declined notice with plenty of explanation and possibly an appeal system for rejections?

Xaviera wrote:

If you dont have many DMs in your time zone, then you wont get many DCs

I still am saving for a tail for my character, only got 7 DC's so far.. for roughly 6 months or so.

TormakSaber wrote:

Chill.

What Tormy said.

No one, save for the DM's has the exact numbers on how many requests were accepted and I doubt they cared for what gender the requester was or is.

An appeal system doesn't really have a function.

"I know you guys said no, but maybe you could say yes?"

"Urr... we debated for two weeks and came to a "No" agreement. Why would we change our minds?"

HellScourge wrote:

I still am saving for a tail for my character, only got 7 DC's so far.. for roughly 6 months or so.

For just a few DC's a week, you can make a difference in the lives of DC starved players all over Amia. If you DC them, you will be sent a picture of them, literature about thier story, and probably a thank you in a tell. But most importantly, you'll give them hope. Hope that they can afford a rebuild, or a skin change, or even a leet item. Oppritunities they struggle to get otherwise... Please, show us you care. Show them that they are not forgotten.

Give more DC's.

Give me RP, and I will give you DCs. Every time you discuss in party chat something that could have been done ICly, you're losing DCs. Every time you break the immersion in talk with OOC, you're losing DCs.

And if we are limiting party chat to things like ooc jobs and whatnot, and keep rping icly without any noticible break to those not in party chat, but still aren't getting DC's...

I can't imagine that so many people are doing poorly for that.

At that point I'm afraid it comes down to "DMs are human, we cover what we can, we DC what we see and feel is DCable."

Need moar dm's then to cover what isn't covered.

Trying to pigeonhole DMs to timezones only works so well.

If the DMs feel more are needed to cover the gaps, cool.

One thing I am curious about is with the PC Dreamcoin wands you can recommend with, are they logged somewhere so even if a DM isn't on when a PC's bonked , they might catch it later?

TormakSaber wrote:

An appeal system doesn't really have a function.

"I know you guys said no, but maybe you could say yes?"

"Urr... we debated for two weeks and came to a "No" agreement. Why would we change our minds?"

but you see we don't see that side of it, on our end its silence, and patiently waiting (some cases bugging dm's left and right) then two weeks later we get a "no". besides the appeal though i still think that would be better.

the appeal would be useful in some cases though, for example, my character request i mentioned, if i then went a set up ingame rp and felt there was a good chance of getting it reconsidered, an appeal would work for such

Grymia wrote:

Trying to pigeonhole DMs to timezones only works so well.

If the DMs feel more are needed to cover the gaps, cool.

One thing I am curious about is with the PC Dreamcoin wands you can recommend with, are they logged somewhere so even if a DM isn't on when a PC's bonked , they might catch it later?

Only for a certain amount of time before it expires, but yes. Unless they changed that since I quit.

Wyjyn wrote:

Yurell wrote:

44 pages, 3263 topics, gods know how many PMs ... and you provide a small sample size. Furthermore, you are arguing that this correlation is causation.

Do you demand your politicians know every last statistic relating to the economy since its establishment? You are being absurd, if you take your approach to 'anything' you can never act. Ever. There is no way I am going over that many, I dont know a single sociologist that would even consider that. In fact, dont you study history FFS!? Must be first year, must be.

Oh, right, because when studying history one should pick one book and not bother to cross reference with anything else, and treat that as gospel.

Wyjyn wrote:

I did what any sociologist would do, I randomly selected a portion and recorded some statistics based on that. Are you telling me that if an anthropologist interviews three people, that work is worth nothing in establishing details about a society!? I chose a page randomly. Do you expect me to seriously do all those topics from start to finish? I chose a page randomly and it supported my argument. What this comes down to is that you thought I wouldnt do it, I did, and now the whole thing is backfiring hard on you.

PS: You know nothing about phyiscs because you dont have every last speck of data. So you are wrong whenever you say anything about physics.

^^^why your logic sucks.

Wow, so your entire argument isn't just "this small sample size defends my point" but also "correlation is causation". Congratulations on that.

Am I being sarcastic? Yes. Because you are being rude and aggressive.

"I did one experiment and found that G is actually 7 m^3 kg^-1 s^-2 and not 6.67300 × 10-^11 m^3 kg^-1 s^-2"

^^^why your logic sucks.

Wyjyn wrote:

It wouldnt have worked for me and quite a few others, that is the whole issue.

This is where your argument falls apart, as usual: it's a habit of yours to make general accustaions and assumptions based on your supposed observations that 1) you have nothing to support them with and 2) are often ambigious enough not to be proven wrong, either. Many times, I've heard you say things like "I know X is doing wrong, but I don't want to prove it because I don't care/it's no use." You've made such accusations towards DMs and players alike. And that's called slander. When you make an accusation, you must back it up.

Your above assumption is easy to prove wrong, though: your request had much less information, and we approved it anyway. But we wanted more from you, we wanted to see that you were actually working for it IC, making the effort and having fun with it. So I asked you for a bit more information, you had a fit and said we should forget about it. Because "you're not writing anything more." Compare that to the Green Dragon request, wherein the player took part in the discussion, provided a lot of material when asked, and tried to actively find an agreeable solution.

I'll bring up your request, since you made it such a big deal that you probably don't mind. After the accusations, I'm not quite done with it yet:

Wyjyn wrote:

I would like to get a reskin for qirlans EDK, namely i would like to use the stone golem model (its a black and gray thing) to represent the 'greater stone golem' construct.

so.. if it can be named I would have it called 'greater stone golem'. Portrait just the generic stone golem one.

Story:

Deep within the abandoned lair that skirts its way under and around Uhm the walls of the labyrinth tremble and quake, a quickening deep within the earth's womb as granite is shaped and molded. The designs, the stone, the tools were all within the abandoned lair ready to be given new life - to wrestle it free from the earth, infused with magic to give it motion and to let it a small degree of sway over the cold, a golem is born to serve its new master with absolute obedience.

This was it. All of it. It doesn't even say who built it, how, and why. It says nothing about your RP in game. And you know what? We knew you were a good role-player, and we were ready to approve such a simple request. But then you threw a fit when we asked for a bit more. We didn't deny anything. You told us to, I quote, "forget it."

As for the subjectivity of the system: of course it is subjective, and it doesn't even try to appear as objective. I apply different standards to different people: If I have time, I will ask more clarification, improvement or in-game effort on almost any request that seems to have room for that. It doesn't matter how good it is. I could care less how and why people reskin their summons, personally. I do it because I want everyone to do their best with the talent they have, and I can't ask for more than that. If a newbie with poor English does his very best to work on a request, I'm much happier to approve it than if Yossarin wrote a half-arsed request in two minutes - even if it was five times better.

The point is to make you work for what you want, to reward your achievements. I personally care very little about the second grade fan fiction that most requests are.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

I made a post, got sick of typing it so I will summarize:

To Yurell:

1. Even cliometrics doesnt have the rigidity you are asking for Yurell.

2. I hope that every argument you ever run again on this forum has the rigidity you are asking for yurell.

3. I doubt you will find anyone who has gone to the lengths I have to defend my point, why dont you attack others as well for their lack of empircism

4. I am being rude to you because you deserve it. What I dont do to you is join your threads and keep running 'turtles all the way down' arguments. That changes today.

To IronAngel:

1. To copy yurell, as you dont mind the argument he is running.

Quote:

it's a habit of yours to make general accustaions and assumptions based on your supposed observations that

Where is your evidence?

Quote:

having fun with it.

Where is your evidence?

2. I like that request, for those that actually understand my character it makes sense and has more meaning. If you read it carefully, you can actually see the interpretation I gave to you earlier in this thread which Tormak said "there was nothing about..". I didnt want to give more because it is my right as a story teller to keep things about my character hidden. However, as it is clear that attempting anything resembling metaphor is a dead end with the DM team I will explain it a bit more fully.

Qirlan's favoured element is air, the reason for this is that it symbolizes his superiority complex in that he is 'above' and somewhat detached from the ground (reality). In the Wiccan religion, air and fire are also associated with masculinity and earth and water with feminity. This is why qirlan is attracted to female characters associated with the earth, ala rangers and druids, because they represent his opposed element. Mystra and the weave also represent an opposition of a kind, hence qirlan is a wizard. Wizards explore 'mystra', a feminine force, who also represents the weave. For those that actually pay attention to my character they would notice that he tries to take the high ground, literal high ground, in situations. If he is talking to someone on the hill, I slowly move him towards the top of said hill and a range of other things like that. I prefer them not to be mundanely mentioned, they are (were) for people to work out as they RP with my character.

This particular request was all done in character, but I did not do it in a systematic way but rather in a manner that was meant to suggest that Qirlan was facing his shadow archetype by delving into his opposed element, earth. In Jungian theory, the shadow takes on a personality's repressed aspects and subsequently appears very much our opposite. As qirlan's persona is air, so his shadow archetype is within the earth (which also matches up with drow, yes). As qirlan is refined, so his shadow should be bulky and rough. As qirlan is air focused, his shadow should be earth focused. As such, the stone golem model was a clear choice.

How the request essentially goes is that Qirlan is deep within the abandoned labrynth (the minotaur in the labrynth is the classical shadow archetype reference, existing within the subconcious, born of beast and woman). So he is down there, facing or attempting to face his shadow archetype and wrestle it free from the earth. As such, the golem figure is the result of a kind of intercourse between the masculine forces of air and wizardry and the feminine forces of earth and the weave. These feminine forces give 'birth' to a golem. Subsequently, there is a quickening within the earth (quickening is the stage of pregnancy in which a mother first feels movements).

The request was complete, it needed no more information associated with it. I am very, very, very, very, very annoyed that I have had to explain all this now and was even more so irritated that I would potentially have had to then. In truth, there was even more to the request but I cannot quite remember it all.

Anyway, due to the above roleplay being essentially rejected because I didnt want to write "qirlan for dummies" to accompany it and because I was not on any favoured lists, I rejected and continue to reject the validity of the DC system and will strongly oppose any suggestion of DMs being completely in charge of handing out epic loot.

I know! Lets start a new game! Thats right! In PnP when an adventure grows stagnant we reset the game.

Character vault wipe time!

Wyjyn wrote:

I made a post, got sick of typing it so I will summarize:

To Yurell:

1. Even cliometrics doesnt have the rigidity you are asking for Yurell.

2. I hope that every argument you ever run again on this forum has the rigidity you are asking for yurell.

3. I doubt you will find anyone who has gone to the lengths I have to defend my point, why dont you attack others as well for their lack of empircism

4. I am being rude to you because you deserve it. What I dont do to you is join your threads and keep running 'turtles all the way down' arguments. That changes today.

You have not given me any evidence that being female causes the request to be accepted ... correlation is not causation. You provided a tiny sample size, without including information on the presence of other factors that may influence the result e.g. quality of the request.

Wyjyn wrote:

To IronAngel:

1. To copy yurell, as you dont mind the argument he is running.

Quote:

it's a habit of yours to make general accustaions and assumptions based on your supposed observations that

Where is your evidence?

Quote:

having fun with it.

Where is your evidence?

Please, please give it to him.

Wyjyn wrote:

Anyway, due to the above roleplay being essentially rejected because I didnt want to write "qirlan for dummies" to accompany it and because I was not on any favoured lists

So your complaint is that your RP was 'rejected' because you didn't want to write down the RP which the DMs hadn't seen?
And you refused to write your request because you're not on a favourite list? More fool you - I strongly doubt that I'm on a favourite list and yet I request (oh, and by the way - I'm not female and it got approved).

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Yurrell, in my experience people tend to consider you to be female. I did for ages. Your chars are female and your avatar is female, you also seem kind of female to me OOCly in how you behave overall. That is not an insult, you strike me as being female is all. The quote in your signature is written in purple...

How do you want me to acquire that evidence? Cannot extract it from peoples brains, correlation may not be causation, but that doesnt mean you can just ignore it either. Like I said, the rigidity you demand is not really applicable to this conversation. Wait and see when I come at you with the same demands whenever you take a damn step. This is at best a humanities question, not a science one.

Also, you are a sycophant yurrell. Think whatever you want of that, its what you are. You can say I am an arrogant, mean-spirited, annoying, idiotic jerk..but you are a sycophant. It is why you are posting in this thread to begin with, really.

The evidence is our Tell and PM discussions in the past, including DM corruption and (IIRC) poor player behaviour which you did not want to report, but you had no reservations bringing up vaguely anyway. I bet you remember some of them, but I obviously do not save my discussions; I'm not that paranoid yet.

My evidence to wanting you to have fun with it comes from my own intentions - I am immediately aware of my own thoughts and sensations, so no outside evidence is required. I could be lying to you, and I actually want players to suffer on Amia and with their requests. Maybe the power I have over your requests as a DM is intoxicating, and I enjoy making you jump through hoops. I have no evidence to show otherwise, as my experiences, intentions and feelings are subjective - I can't show them to you.

I don't think "subjectivity" is the problem here. Surely you wouldn't want everyone getting whatever they request without DM evaluation? The problem is that you expect DMs to know your character, understand the Jungian thematics, and realize you've been role-playing in game - all from one paragraph. You're free to think so, but I reckon most other people don't have quite as high expectations of us.

You're also free to resent the request system, and I'm not particularly arguing against that; I know better than to try to change your mind. I want to show to the rest of the playerbase how things are, so that they might make their own conclusions. The only thing that stopped you from getting your golem, and apparently still does, is your vanity and pride. You refused to explain anything at all when we asked, you dropped the ball. If it's the DMs who're in the wrong, who should have understood all the fine layers of your request and approved it with less visible effort than other similar requests, I leave that up for everyone to decide on their own.

P.S. As a comparison, a female DM has been working for a golem request for weeks, if not months, now. Collecting materials etc. Just an anecdote.

Uhm. This is a forum for a bloody game, you guys.
Also, what, did a DM go around stealing candy or something? I haven't really had any bad experiences with them, but I keep seeing them proclaimed to be the cause of darkness in the world.

For that matter, I got a weird character approved within a few months of joining, play male characters, and I would hope, act male.

But I guess it's a moot point, since you can't convert the righteous, etc etc.

Wyjyn wrote:

Yurrell, in my experience people tend to consider you to be female. I did for ages. Your chars are female and your avatar is female, you also seem kind of female to me OOCly in how you behave overall. That is not an insult, you strike me as being female is all. The quote in your signature is written in purple...

Don't worry, no offence taken

Wyjyn wrote:

Also, you are a sycophant yurrell. Think whatever you want of that, its what you are. You can say I am an arrogant, mean-spirited, annoying, idiotic jerk..but you are a sycophant. It is why you are posting in this thread to begin with, really.

I prefer to think I have a strong sense of morals, and if I think something is unjust, unfair or wrong I will comment. If I'm a sycophant, why would I keep getting into heated arguments with Tormak?
Denigration is a horrid defence of the last resort.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

No, the problem was that I expected the DMs to judge the request by the following principles:

Is it reasonable lorewise?
Is it overpowered?
Is the request ridiculous?
Will it be used for roleplay?

As the answers to all of those questions were fine, I dont get what the issue was. Lorewise, reasonable. Not overpowered, had been done many times before. Request was reasonable, really, a stone golem is not really out there and is in fact less out there than the defalt dragon skin. If I had the DCs in the first place, and it was only a cosmetic change, of course it would be used for roleplay. What more is there to it? The request was 'finished'. So that request failed, and the next request I made I said "well, seeing as you just want me to work for it, can I write a story for you guys then we'll just reject the story as not being cannon?" Rejected, as well.

The system is horribly and relentlessly subjective, so when I saw someone was actually considering making the epic item system like it I said "NOOOOOOOOOOO" and when asked why, I explained. I dont see what the big issue is, really. That is really the only reason I brought it up, the potential epic loot could be brought under the same system.

Wyjyn wrote:

No, the problem was that I expected the DMs to judge the request by the following principles:

Is it reasonable lorewise?
Is it overpowered?
Is the request ridiculous?
Will it be used for roleplay?

How about "Was sufficient RP done for this?"

[quote="Wyjyn"So that request failed, and the next request I made I said "well, seeing as you just want me to work for it, can I write a story for you guys then we'll just reject the story as not being cannon?" Rejected, as well.[/quote]

It's funny how being snide doesn't improve your chances.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

It was actually a real attempt from my end to compromise, I thought it was a good one. I dont want to reveal every last detail of my characters story, but without it my original quest would seem too short, so I write a second story that isnt real. Its just to 'work for it' or whatever.

The interesting thing is that this is how most players I know actually approach the request system. They think up their request in terms of OOC power, then just write whatever they think will get them it. I was told by a player that, about a month later, got a very similiar item to the one I was making to "just write some nonsense man, who cares". I responded, "Yeah, but its not what my character would do" to which I received the response, "do you want the item or not?". In fact, most people I asked at the time tended to have that approach to the DC request system. A few players even offered to write up stories for me, ones that I could instantly ignore as soon as I got the request.

I cannot really dump his name into this, so I know that will come up short on your ask for evidence, but it is the truth. I think in itself it is proof enough why the DC system shouldnt be imposed on the epic loot system.

I don't doubt your anecdote, nor do I disagree with you that Epic Loot shouldn't be from DM hands only. Personally I feel that the request system works well, and if people want to treat it as an OOC thing where they BS up an IC excuse ... well, that's up to them.

Well, again: we wanted to know more. We didn't ask for much; basic facts or a reference to RP in game would have been more than enough. (I don't want novels, I hate long stories.) Because, we possibly couldn't know all the finer details, and we're not here to spend hours analyzing requests. And as we said, it was approved already. And it would probably be approved right now (though with the Job System, you might need to get the materials) if you made a request for it.

We didn't deny it. You just didn't want it, anymore. I guess there's nothing more to say about it.

Apart from that: I agree with you about Epic loot, I wouldn't want to put much more approval responsibility on DM shoulders, and I'm well aware many players do much less for their requests than I'd like.

The only criticism that I have is the lack of DMs online at certain times. I mostly play sometime in the middle of the day (GMT) and I very very rarely see a DM.

I'm playing right now and there isn't one online for example.

*Look sat the "Amia Island - 43/65 (1 DM)"

Errr, whatcha talkin' about willace?

TormakSaber wrote:

1. Know your request BEFORE you make the request. If you make a request as "I want a spell that does negative energy damage and fear.", your topic will be delayed and take a LOT longer, than if you make a request that says "I want a widget that does 10d6 negative energy damage in a fireball sized radius DC 25 will save vs fear, 3x a day and it uses a level 6 spell slot when I cast it." Requiring debate from the DMs (and often players who chime in on the public forums) in the public forums to finalize your request is a sure-fire way of a request getting bogged down and/or forgotten. This applies to skin changes and etc as well. Do NOT make a post that says "I'll post the story if you want" or "this is a quick job, I'll post the full thing later." Post the whole thing at once, and do post the story, we'll ALWAYS want to see it. If you're afraid of metagaming or simply want to keep the request private, PM it to a DM.

Wyjyn wrote:

The request was complete, it needed no more information associated with it. [...] Anyway, due to the above roleplay being essentially rejected because I didnt want to write "qirlan for dummies" to accompany it and because I was not on any favoured lists, I rejected and continue to reject the validity of the DC system and will strongly oppose any suggestion of DMs being completely in charge of handing out epic loot.

I love Qirlan to bits, but... no.

Even the guidelines (of which I only quoted a small part) would suggest you need more. Given that the issue of 'favoured lists' has been largely addressed, IMO, it boils down to the fact that you simply didnt feel like writing up something when asked. In fact, I'd say that while your description does a wonderful job discussing how the request relates to Qirlan's psyche, it doesnt actually say anything about how he IC obtains the golem (Qirlan finds some tools underground or takes them there and then some magic is used, he expends some effort and the earth moves). And yes, you said you RP'd it, but that's where some screenies might have come in handy, or a wave to a DM saying "I'm RPing for a DC request, please come look".

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