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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

You're right, I'd rather get rid of ueberloot completely, but guess what there would be if people had to give up their game-breaking crap like perma-freedom? That's right, whining. No one wants to sacrifice their win-ness to make the game more fun for other people (in that example, assassins, druids, enchanters, etc.) so how can you expect to bring in new players when that's precisely one of the things which would have to be done?

I have to say I'm larfing pretty hard at this though. Everyone is trying to figure out how to rope new folk into Amia and it's pretty damned clear no one on this server trusts anyone else a whit, given that every single policy revolves around players being suspicious of the DMs, DMs being suspicious of the players, and of course, players being suspicious of other players. I'm sure there's some proverb out there about fixing your home before inviting people over or something to that effect...

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

You are 100% correct in that I would not trust the DMs with the option of handing out items like you suggest. I already despise the DC request system with a passion, why make the situation worse?

The advantage of the epic loot system is that you dont need to justify it to anyone, your character beats the creature and you get the loot. It is actually far closer to how it works in PnP. Dice roll = loot. Good system, I would actually probably prefer it as the only system.

Wyjyn wrote:

The advantage of the epic loot system is that you dont need to justify it to anyone, your character beats the creature and you get the loot. It is actually far closer to how it works in PnP. Dice roll = loot. Good system, I would actually probably prefer it as the only system.

And a "tough luck, sucks for you" to those lacking the build to take down a boss?

That's not a snide commentary. I no longer have the energy for that. It is just an honest question because I am curious about how you think. The fact that the discussion moves towards an importance of epic loot is a problem in and of itself, but one for an entirely different conversation.

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Probably because they *ought* to be. Why do you get cranky about this and not the expectation that there ought to be supremely fertile and/or horny monsters everywhere who seem to have nothing else to do than reproduce in order to be xp for random adventurers? The latter attitude hurts RP *far* more than expecting to get rewarded for doing RP. It's just an inane MMORPG convention that you gain levels by running into areas and killing everything mindlessly but it's horrid for getting players to want to RP out their "adventures" together.

That was the same lgoic made at the beginning. "They ought to give XP." And so thye gave XP.

"They ought to be 10 DCs a level." And so lo, more XP was given.

"They ought to be 5 DCs a level." Lo, more XP from on high.

"They ought to be 3 DCs a level." And it was done, and It Was Good.

"They ought to be 1 DC a level." And now we see the pattern emerging, I hope, and the recalcitrance at just going "And it was done, and It Was Good."

It will be 1 DC for 2 levels, then 1 for three. "But you don't give enough DCs." But if we give more DCs, then your argument becomes moot. Perhaps we should lessen the XP to account for inflation? Nay, you say, for I do not have enough DCs! But we havee just given you more DCs.

See where I'm going with ths, I hope?

~~~~~

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I have to say I'm larfing pretty hard at this though. Everyone is trying to figure out how to rope new folk into Amia and it's pretty damned clear no one on this server trusts anyone else a whit, given that every single policy revolves around players being suspicious of the DMs, DMs being suspicious of the players, and of course, players being suspicious of other players. I'm sure there's some proverb out there about fixing your home before inviting people over or something to that effect...

Laugh all you like, but the sort of it is, you're not in the DM chair and you don't understand why we have the attitudes we do towards cheaters and plyers who seek to manipulate the system for their own ends. I trust players, but the fact of the matter is that rules are required to enforce fairness among each other, because players will not be "fair" otherwise.

I find the attitude of players who refuse to trust DMs far more destructive than vice versa, I am afraid.

~~~~

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Uh...what? I'm guessing you're trying to say limiting ueberloot to DM plots would create resentment, but if that's case, I can only reply that catering to people inclined to be envious and resentful is never good policy. The whole staff of Amia's general credo seem to be "what's going to result in less whining?" on every issue imaginable.

Well, can you blame us? Look at most every topci on the forums. Yes, it would create resentment, on all sides. His is better than mine. I didn't get any. My timezone has less DMs. You're friends with a DM. You *are* a DM. The current setup allow you to get things via monster fighting, yes still leaves us an avenue to give it ourselves. No one is deprived and we still claim the 'unique' and the 'special' for DC requests and DM plot items.

~~~

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I already despise the DC request system with a passion

Would any "system" for handling requests satisfy you? My stipulation is that the system must involve a DM, due to us handling the management of the server. I'm afraid "full judgement by gathering of peers for request worthiness" is not a viable option to me. I ca understand having issues with "DCs Themselves", but as a 'currency' the system lends itself well both to regulate requests and hopefully set a base level of standards for requests in the first place. Stronger requests require higher standards and more DCs to boot, meaning you have (hopefully) been around longer and contributed more to the overall environment.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

My expericen of the DC request system, and I have been watching it a while, is that three subgroups get requests through easier:

1. DMs
2. DMs friends
3. Females

What I dislike is that your standards are subjective yet have a clear objective affect. I personally would make it easier in a few ways to request items in that I think the DC request system should have a checklist. Here it is:

1. Is the request overpowered?
2. Is the roleplay ridiculous?
3. Can disco/anyone make it?
4. Can disco/anyone be bothered to make it?

When I say "is the roleplay ridiculous" I mean you cannot say things like "After john defeated elminster in a mage duel and then spared his life after the great mage begged him, john took his staff". Beyond that, I think most requests should be accepted because I don't believe it is anyone's place to judge the RP of a player after they have already been rewarded DCs for good roleplay. Either judge the requests individually without DCs or have the DC system and relax about it.

It gets annoying when you do heaps of IC roleplay and write an okay request and it gets rejected then you see a far worse request for a more powerful item with no accompanying in game roleplay get accepted. Bonus annoyance points when you help the person write the story for the item that gets instantly accepted! That is the sort of thing that makes me think "DMs suck". One of the biggest mysteries to me is why I get so many DCs and yet cannot realistically request things. I have spent like 189 on levelling characters that I dont even play. The entire DC system is worthless to me.

However, the big issue with all this stuff for me is the lack of honesty. Want to be horribly OOC bias? Go for it, just dont pretend that you arent. Its the difference between "Your roleplay sucks" and "I think your roleplay sucks". I dont mind the second, but the first pisses me off. I would honestly say that single issue makes up about 90% of my problems with the DM team. The obviously subjective behaviour masquerading as objective.

Except that's not true, and we're not. I can name three requests just tihs week that got passed for players who... do not have spotless mutual pasts with the DM team, I'll leave it at that. They have the DCs, the request was good, the RP is supporting it. It wasn't an argument, they were held to the same standards everyone else is.

And I can assure you, they are not friends of DMs, nor are they female.

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One of the biggest mysteries to me is why I get so many DCs and yet cannot realistically request things. I have spent like 189 on levelling characters that I dont even play. The entire DC system is worthless to me.

Have you requested things? Hang on... lemme do a search on the forums for any requests by you.

EDIT: First persual brings up a rapier that was approved that doesn't seem you ever bought or recieved, and a cloak that was delayed because we wished to know more about the RP relating to it, and there was no reply from you.

EDIT 2: Also, many stories get PMed to us or sent to us after we move the topic so it may not be immediately obvious to the viewing public.

TormakSaber wrote:

"They ought to be 3 DCs a level." And it was done, and It Was Good.

"They ought to be 1 DC a level." And now we see the pattern emerging, I hope, and the recalcitrance at just going "And it was done, and It Was Good."

It will be 1 DC for 2 levels, then 1 for three. "But you don't give enough DCs." But if we give more DCs, then your argument becomes moot. Perhaps we should lessen the XP to account for inflation? Nay, you say, for I do not have enough DCs! But we havee just given you more DCs.

See where I'm going with ths, I hope?

I like it at the current amount. It's nice in a bind, and even at one DC a day with some hunting you can easily max in a couple of months.

This'll be the last crack I'll take since it seems like everyone wants to have another pointless DMs v. players pissthread. Anyway...

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It will be 1 DC for 2 levels, then 1 for three. "But you don't give enough DCs." But if we give more DCs, then your argument becomes moot. Perhaps we should lessen the XP to account for inflation? Nay, you say, for I do not have enough DCs! But we havee just given you more DCs.

See where I'm going with ths, I hope?

I saw before you started, and I also see your approach is all wrong. All you're basically hearing is "playerz want moar!" whereas my point is whatever amount of XP you get from hunting should be considerably less than you get from RPing well, including DCs, quests, on-going events, doing your char's job, etc. Some dude can grab a couple of his buddies a level in a few days from level grinding that couldn't possibly be anything else other than OOC under those conditions whereas, no matter how much they are worth, it will always be harder to gain XP from DCs because DCs require you to have a DM not only on, but specifically watching you at the time you're being interesting. "Hunting" has no restricting conditions on players whatsoever.

The thing that caused me to leave Amia earlier, and likely will again if always stays this way, is the atmosphere engendered by whack-a-mole levelling, not some abstract "fairness" about loot or levels. When some guy with ueberloot stomps a mudhole in you it doesn't really matter whether he "earned" it or not, it still feels cheap. There also seems to be this curious attitude that you have to suffer the dolldrum of grinding in order to "earn" xp rather than earning your xp by playing your character well. I would have included getting more XP from DM plots in my list too, but that's even harder than DCs, since they're a bitch to get involved with if you're late on one. In any case, to reiterate, the point here is that if the "spawns" have anything to do with people leaving the server, it's likely the fact that they are "spawns" and not living, breathing beings in a dynamic, integrated world.

Personally, I'd rather go back to one server with 64/64 but have good quality RPers, rather than people here to do what they could just as easily do on single player, than seeing Amia keep waffle about whether it's really RP or just "RP lite". I suspect there's something about the modern mentality at work here though, that just wants to gauge success by numbers, rather than seeing how content the playerbase actually is. Regardless, if the whole DC thing was an issue, you could always just limit the amount of XP you could gain from DCs per week to prevent insta-levelling anyway, although I seriously doubt very many people would have 30-40 DCs to blow on that in any event.

I'd even like to see it made so it basically takes at least 6 months to get a char into epic, because way too many folk know have the "build bug" and seem to just pop out characters for no other reason than to see what such and such an ability does which makes it hard to get people to commit to long term happenings. All Amia does now is reward people who have the...let's call it endurance, not to mention the extra time and clique of friends, to run around killing things who have no other purpose than to be killed. Which *isn't* how it should be in any good DnD game, where encounters are limited to 4 a day generally tops and have something to do with the plot or en route to the plot at least. Even if that was how DnD was however, it'd still need changing, in my opinion. And that's all for me folks.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

I've seen some stories and while I would not have rejected them, they were significantly worse than my own to my mind. The difference is that how I RPd making items was actually largely done in game. For instance, I actually got like wizards together, researched, had my apprentice help me at one stage. However, that particular method tends to suck for me on the requests to be honest. All a waste of damn time when I could have just wrote:

"Qirlan wants a bronze rapier because bronze is his favourite colour which he always wears. He loves bronze, blah blah bronze, blah blah blah"

//I am female OOC.

My first request was actually for a golem, it was a small story but one of the better written ones. I was going for a metaphor whereby qirlan, being associated with air element and air being associated with masculinity, was 'exploring' (sexual connotations) the earth (feminine) and this resulted in the 'birth' of a golem in that cave system near uhm. The RP was good and largely done IC, it got rejected, and now I despise the system.

I doubt you will change my conviction really, I think I am spot on about the DC system. Anyway, I dont want to have to deal with that nonsense to get epic loot. No way, so I am arguing strongly against the idea even though I get how it could potentially work and be fun.

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"Qirlan wants a bronze rapier because bronze is his favourite colour which he always wears. He loves bronze, blah blah bronze, blah blah blah"

//I am female OOC.

Um... no.... that's not how it works at all...

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I doubt you will change my conviction really, I think I am spot on about the DC system.

And I think you are not, but contrary to you, I'm willing to listen to both sides.

If you're going to refuse to listen to anyone else with fingers in your ears going "I'm not listening, I'm right, la la la", why do you post in the topic? I guess to just assert that you are correct and everyone else is wrong no matter what they say?

Do you have a link to your golem request, btw? If it was a custom summon, then that's the basis upon which is was denied: We don't give custom summons. If it was an old request, it's also possible that the summon reskinner hadn't been "invented" yet.

BloodNAshes wrote:

whatever amount of XP you get from hunting should be considerably less than you get from RPing well, including DCs, quests, on-going events, doing your char's job, etc. Some dude can grab a couple of his buddies a level in a few days from level grinding that couldn't possibly be anything else other than OOC under those conditions whereas, no matter how much they are worth, it will always be harder to gain XP from DCs because DCs require you to have a DM not only on, but specifically watching you at the time you're being interesting.

I like to think that was how I got experience in Amia. I would guess that maybe 70% of the 30 levels on my main (and only viable) PC were gained through DC expenditure alone, back when the cost was 10 per level, as well as XP dump from DMs when I was being a happy little player and pushing what I thought were good stories along by roleplaying.

Naturally, the playerbase is convinced I gained those levels unfairly by schmoozing with DMs at the time, thus earning lots of DCs, which I've already stated is untrue because I don't really talk to anybody and at the time I really didn't talk to any DMs. Because I acknowledged them as being well above my station with lots of their own things to worry about.

However, I do not believe a mechanical switch from majority XP via hunting to majority XP via RP will have anywhere near the impact, or feel anywhere near as genuine, if it isn't something granted by DMs. I don't think you can just "script the module differently" and expect everything to work out.

And BnA, I take your encounters issue to heart. I use storytelling and creative fiction tactics in both DM'ing and playing - every encounter, or every interaction, should almost exclusively serve one of two purposes: charactever development, or plot advancement. Anything outside of this seems wasteful, and it is why I don't engage in huggles or in cybering or a handful of other activities. The exception is "just for fun", which is valid and not necessarily a waste of time, and it varies from person to person. Sometimes, I think running a boss is fun, because I like to flex the muscles I would never, ever, ever otherwise flex, and because I like the risk and the gamble taken for epic loots.

Yossarin didn't get DCs because Zweij sucked up to the DMs.

Yossarin got DCs because it was a very popular character, who's RP (as portrayed by Zweij) was exceedingly appreciated.

That's a flaw of the DC system.

Popular, well known and generally appreciated characters get exceedingly higher quantities of DCs than everyone else.

There's been times when I've gotten 6 DCs with Semli, from different DMs during the course of 6-8 hours.

Semli was a very popular character, and a lot of people enjoyed him and was humoured by him on an OOC level. Likely DMs as well.

The same can be said for Darthion, when he was Imperceptor.

60 DCs during the course of 2½ months.

When you're at the peak of popularity, you also reach the peak of achieved DCs.

In the past (like, several years ago, prior to most of the current DM staff), popularity by itself would usually be enough to grant shitloads of DCs, events, DM attention and quests, just on popularity alone. There has been very popular characters, who's RP was everything but admireable (IMHO), yet still received far more DCs than anyone else.

That's probably more of a human flaw, however, than a flaw of the DC system.

Ah, found the golem request.

The golem request was approved, all we asked for was more elaboration than the 4 lines we got in a forum post from you. This could have been screenshots, more writing, whatever, pretty much anything. There was nothing regarding the analogy you posted at all. And quote the DM who posted the reply from your PM, assumedly paraphrased:

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He says we can forget about it, he's not writing any more.

At this point we were forced to close the request due to lack of RP. If we request additional story or RP or etc, and the player declines to do so, we tend to conclude that they're no longer interested and we close the request.

For the record: I didn't post in that request nor do I remember it. The timing (March '08) appears to be when I didn't have internet, or steady internet anyways and was largely unable to keep up with Amia when I moved.

~~~

EDIT: Re: Mago. When we DC people, we can see the last time they got a DC, if it was that reset. I won't DC people if they've already gotten a DC that reset (nunless they were jsut in one of my events and I didn't kno w they hadn't been DC'ed beforehand: If they deserved it from the event, they'll get it from me), but I can only speak for myself.

Most of the examples I used were actually quite old.

I mean, for the Semli example, that occurred some 4 years ago. The Darthion example was a year old, but that example is still very occurring today, as I see it.

In Semli';s example, we didn't have that system in place yet.

In darthion's example, well, if characters do things, they tend to be noticed more readily, and Darth as Imperceptor certainly did things (a continuation of this logic goes "So shouldn't he have been rewarded for it via DCs?"). I noticed this myself between playing a very introverted SD and playing Torin. I never said it was a good thing but it's noticeable. I try to go out of my way to look at spies and sneaky people and otherwise quiet types to se if being quiet and listening is just their MO and a prelude to other cool stuff, and reward them as appropriate for being Ic.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

TormakSaber wrote:

There was nothing regarding the analogy you posted at all.

Yes there was, but I didnt want to have to make it perfectly clear to anyone. DM or player. That is not what RPing is meant to be about, that is akin to telling a joke then explaining the meaning ala it ruins the joke. All this leads back to my original point that the DC request system doesnt work all that well really because it demands the wrong things of player from a RP perspective. The reason it was not possible to understand it is because I would needed to have laid out all my cards, which I didnt want to do and as I was already rewarded with DCs for roleplay it would have been better to have just taken it for granted.

DC requests should fit with a character, not be some arbituary story that exists solely to get the item and is then promptly forgotten about. That is the true joke, because when I DC requested back then I was actually generating roleplay in game whereas otehrs were being rewarded for never logging in. Great work.

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The golem request was approved, all we asked for was more elaboration than the 4 lines we got in a forum post from you. This could have been screenshots, more writing, whatever, pretty much anything

The thing is that like a week later this person requested a DC skin change. Her IC reason? Liked different colour summon. She didnt even get a challenge really, just insta-accepted. I stand by my statement because all the evidence I have witnessed points directly towards it being the case.

Yossarin, how I think is simple. Bosses exist, some characters can take them down. My character is far from the best at it. However, my character is an epic wizard and should be powerful. I have given away and sold epic items for very low prices. I have given away a corrosive full plate, an ioun stone and sold numerous items for under 1000 gold including a dagger of sure strike for 200 gold. Why? Because people actually roleplay respecting the epic wizard who can defeat bosses. Some characters lie, manipulate, suck up, be nice, help, etc to get on my characters good side and their RP is rewarded. They choose to play characters that approach things in a different way, and succeeded. That is all part of roleplay to me.

Last edited by xordae on Fri, Oct 16 2009, 4:22 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Wyjyn, there's nothing stopping you from writing two paragraphs of story of what actually happened to your character (since that seemed to be enough to warrant the item). I know you think that stuff is unnecessary baggage, but it's not all that hard to get a request approved if you go into the situation with a bit of good will. To me, it sounds like the good will is the problem. The situation isn't ideal to you, so you won't deal with it.

I'm not a fan at all of these forum DC stories either, but I got my shit together and wrote a few, and so far I got every item I've requested. Excluding one or two where I dropped the idea before completion.

And I will consistently stand by the fact that we are not biased to women. There are no e-pussiers, no white knights on the DM team. I've easily passed men and women's requests, people who I hate's requests, pretty much damn well everyone on the server.

We asked for elaboration from you. You declined. Your choice, you accept the consequences. However, I think it's pretty unfair for you to call a system flawed, worthless, disgusting, biased, what have you, because you chose to not answer a question we asked for a request that was already approved.

Believe it or not, a simple explanation of said analogy would have in all likely been enough to get the request finalized. Instead you chose to 'hold your cards' (???) for reasons I don't understand, since it was pretty clear at that point that refusing to work with us on the request flat out would result in the closure of said request.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Look, no need to get carried away with this argument. To me, the evidence points against what you are saying and subsequently I want the epic loot system kept basically as it is.

I am listening, but what you are saying does not reflect reality to me. Nothing in any posts convinces me otherwise. I figure that maybe nekh could potentially weigh in with some stats if she had any, but I honestly believe that they would support my view of reality if done correctly. To me its less a matter of debate and more an annoying fact that I gave up particularly bothering to care about in 2008. Just leave epic loot as is please.

Well, I am interested in your point, but as I said if you're going to just stick your fingers in your ears and go "la la la", then alright. I'm done with it.

Statistics can be done 'correctly' without making you right, btw, and I have an itching feeling that if they proved you wrong, you would simply say they weren't done correctly.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

What I mean is that I would not know how to do them, because some people that have played amia for a long time do not use the forum at all. Furthermore, sex is often assumed on the internet rather than known for certain. Not sure how you would begin counting assumed females. Also, DMs might have a better insight into the system and subsequently that has to be taken into account rather than necessarily favouritism. Not sure how to sort DM friends, tbh.

Either way, if you compared successful DM requests to failed DM requests and lined them up against the ratio of successful Player Requests compared to failed player requests, I bet it would be an absolute blow out even with the DM friends and females included. Would be an even worse blow out otherwise. Partially knowing the system, partially more reasonable requests maybe, partially bias.

Well, they didn't become DMs by being 'bad RPers' or not contributing to the server at all... it's not unlikely that a DM's requests are more likely to be well put together than a random player of the entire server. DMs do not get free passes by any rate, their requests are not automatically approved at all. But I think it's the nature of the beast that a DM is more likely to put forth the effort required to create a successful request. After all, that's probably partially why they're DMs in the first place, right? A dedication to roleplay, initiative, effort in the face of adversity and scrutiny.

DM requests do get denied and I think the fact that they get denied period is evidence that we're not biased to ourselves. We don't maintain any ratio of "X successful requests to Y failed requests".

Wyjyn, it's very funny that you accuse us of assuming the gender of the player, but in the same sentence you assume both the sexual orientation and the gender of the DM (straight males would be favouring female players, right?). Or would gay male DMs and female DMs be biased to female characters all the same? Then you have to rethink your reasonings.

All in all, I think there are slightly more female characters, and out of those more female characters are "RP oriented" (meaning they spend larger amount of their time in cities talking about whatever, also relevant matters) than male characters. I dunno what is the reason for that, but it's possible that they get slightly more DCs because they're simply a larger part of the character population.

My point is, that you're jumping into conclusions too quickly without looking at the bigger picture. Correlation does not imply causation, it is likely that there are other factors at work than those that would seem obvious to one person.

Anyway, off topic, but had to point that out.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

I never gave any reasoning, just said that it was so. I dont care in the least what the reason is, it is just something that I have seen as I watch the request forums. I can name heaps of potential reasons for it being this way that have nothing to do with sexual attraction.

Spending larger amounts of time in cities does not mean you are more RP orientated at all, in fact in a sword and sorcery setting it probably means you are less so if anything.

This has nothing to do with acquisition of DCs, I have no access to that information whatsoever. This has to do with requests getting through the request system. People who have a feminine identity seem to get requests through the system easier than those that dont. Purple text seems to win.

Maybe they're just better communicators?

I disagree with the popularity associated with higher DCs...

My PC rarely gets DCs, even though he's in the brunt of most RP around Winya... Heck, I still can't afford my EDK reskin. >.>

I guess it's also relative to my timezone. Very rarely are DMs on when i'm playing.

EDIT: Also, Wyjyn, Tormak and Yoss... Whilst you're all discussing the credibility of the DC request system I just wanted to add: It's the only system we've got that works.

Capitalism sucks, it's powerbuilding F***ers in RL... But, it's the only system we've got that works... So we stick with it.

On that note. DMs exist in PnP - you want something, you ask the DM: likewise in NWN. Soz bebe, that's how it is.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

soundofastream wrote:

Maybe they're just better communicators?

HA! You don't want to go down this path.

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I never gave any reasoning, just said that it was so. I dont care in the least what the reason is, it is just something that I have seen as I watch the request forums. I can name heaps of potential reasons for it being this way that have nothing to do with sexual attraction.

Spending larger amounts of time in cities does not mean you are more RP orientated at all, in fact in a sword and sorcery setting it probably means you are less so if anything.

This has nothing to do with acquisition of DCs, I have no access to that information whatsoever. This has to do with requests getting through the request system. People who have a feminine identity seem to get requests through the system easier than those that dont. Purple text seems to win.

You can't just say something is so without saying why it is so, if you present something as a "fact". You're simply expressing your opinion that something is so, not any facts. It's fine to say "I've observed this to happen", but there you acknowledge that your perception might be limited. You don't, for example, see the requests delivered to us privately, so your perception is in fact limited.

There's also a difference in being RP oriented and being "RP oriented". I used the quotes for a reason, with an explanation of what they do in the cities (talk about things, which some consider a waste of time, but they also end up talking about plot related matters, which often leads to at least yours truly DCing them).

More DCs probably means more DC requests, too. It's reasonable to expect causality there.

I think Amia's difficulty level is fine, but I also think the spawns could be more varied. Amia A is a bit of a challenge in that department, it kinda needs a full overhaul.

Uce and I just tweaked the Frost Giants a bit. There are now more types of mages, with different spells. You never know what you get. I guess that's the way to go.

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The thing is that like a week later this person requested a DC skin change. Her IC reason? Liked different colour summon. She didnt even get a challenge really, just insta-accepted. I stand by my statement because all the evidence I have witnessed points directly towards it being the case.

So you're comparing that someone changed the colour of the summon (like brown bear to black one) without RP vs a racechange of a summon to a golem?

if not, you got to use links and references so you don't confuse people
if yes... well then I'm afraid I cannot follow your logic.

I'd like links to what he's referencing. Saying things without the evidence doesn't allow others to put things in perspective.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Yurell wrote:

I'd like links to what he's referencing. Saying things without the evidence doesn't allow others to put things in perspective.

Saying things with links is bringing up specific incidents, plus moved, plus I dont want to drag someone into this just for making a request.

My guess is, that he's referring to a dragon summon, that was changed to a greed dragon to match the clothing of the character. The character was neutral by alignment and thus summoning the pink prismatic dragon.

In PnP and NWN core, every alignment summons a red dragon. The fact we got these alignment-based summons is essentially eye candy and variation for the sake of variation, though people can RP it as they wish of course. It's very nice if they RP it accordingly.

So, you get to summon a dragon by default and want to change a different colour dragon? No probs. I wouldn't have much problems with a silver dragon for an evil character, because with the spell you are binding the dragon from a different plane to do your bidding, regardless of alignments and the opinion of the dragon. I must say, I wouldn't fancy it too much if the silver dragon was RP'd being the evil character's friend, though. That's not plausible.

This was a public request on the forums, and I don't see why it shouldn't be linked. It's not like people can't search it up if they like. Just bring out the facts from all sides, if you start bringing up these comparisons in the first place, please.

Am I very obviously not following most of the thread if I ask what on earth skins and requests have to do with Amia's mob difficulty?

Dev Disco wrote:

Am I very obviously not following most of the thread if I ask what on earth skins and requests have to do with Amia's mob difficulty?

Absolutely nothing, feel free to split where you think it should be split. I am not entirely sure where that tangent appeared, really.

Someone DC requested to change their EDK to match their clothes?

Wtf?

There was a bit more to it storywise, too. I happen to remember this one, because I found it amusing. I usually don't remember DC requests too well.

Why not? People buy cars based on the colour that best matches there hair or outfit? Makes sense someone might pay to have there dragon changed to match there hair.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Nekhy wrote:

There was a bit more to it storywise, too.

Not really, as far as I remember. She liked green, so wanted a green dragon. No probs, but if I made that exact same request it would have seen me crucified. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever I would not have succeeded with that precise same request.

Quote:

Why not? People buy cars based on the colour that best matches there hair or outfit? Makes sense someone might pay to have there dragon changed to match there hair.

You're right, but it becomes a problem the minute you start rejecting other people based on their stories when "i like green" sufficed for someone else.

Wyjyn wrote:

Not really, as far as I remember. She liked green, so wanted a green dragon. No probs, but if I made that exact same request it would have seen me crucified. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever I would not have succeeded with that precise same request.

Well, since you clearly know what each DM thinks better than we do, we'll just have to settle for that, then.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Why not? People buy cars based on the colour that best matches there hair or outfit? Makes sense someone might pay to have there dragon changed to match there hair.

Except, this is an RP server with the Forgotten Realms setting.

Not Hollywood.

Mago, that DC request was not brought up here for the sake of flaming it. That's just rude from you, leave other people's requests alone, please. I clarified it simply because Wyjyn brought up a fuzzy version of the story.

Wyjyn wrote:

Quote:

Why not? People buy cars based on the colour that best matches there hair or outfit? Makes sense someone might pay to have there dragon changed to match there hair.

You're right, but it becomes a problem the minute you start rejecting other people based on their stories when "i like green" sufficed for someone else.

Provide links. This is obviously a specific example anyway, and hearing someone's biased view doesn't lend to the ability to construct a reasonable response - we don't know what the DMs said. Or what the player said. Apart from your one-sided argument in a condescending tone.

Nekhy wrote:

Mago, that DC request was not brought up here for the sake of flaming it. That's just rude from you, leave other people's requests alone, please. I clarified it simply because Wyjyn brought up a fuzzy version of the story.

I am rude, in general. Or perhaps direct and harsh, rather.

Though, I am definitely rude towards stupidity.

Nekhy wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

Am I very obviously not following most of the thread if I ask what on earth skins and requests have to do with Amia's mob difficulty?

Absolutely nothing, feel free to split where you think it should be split. I am not entirely sure where that tangent appeared, really.

I quick browse suggest I have better things to do than that... bejesus, does every thread derail into a "DMs do it wrong" rant these days?

When things fall apart, DMs take it in the rear.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Re-read the story, couldnt agree more with myself.

Good for you.

Does this thread still serve a purpose?

Well it's original perpose before it got derailed by ego's, yes.

Split the topic.

And Mago, what you count as stupid in FR is your perception. To some, green dragons to match the character's preferences are stupid. To some others, devil and celestial PCs, multiple race changes or playing a non-adventurer might be silly and unfit for the Realms. But then again, to others they're perfectly valid things to happen.

Split random DC stuff discussion

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