AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Couldn't figure out which topic to put this under so I thought I'd make my own.

Its about the players losing interest, getting bored and leaving and the low player count etc.

I'm just wondering if its partly because Amias too easy? Discos new, now old xp system has made getting to 25 effectively risk free. What i'm getting at is, levelling has become less Adventuring and more a chore to get to 30, boss grinding and RPing.

I know, I know "Shut up Mosh you dirty powerbuilder" but its one of the inferences i've been getting from players that have left for pastures sprayed with toxic pesticides.

Wouldn't mind some new players (To Amia) giving some clue into the difficulty of the servers spawns. I can't be trusted to give insight into Amias module apparently, because I post in the build topic or some such.

So the question is:

Are Amias spawns to easy?

If yes

Is the ease of Amias spawns detrimental in keeping your interest in the server?

If people leave because the monsters are too easy, then I believe they've missed the header under "AMIA" that says "a Persistent World Role Play NwN World". I don't think there's much else I can say on the subject except if all they cared about was getting to 30 and leaving, I'm not sure they would have roleplayed in the first place.

The monsters are 'easy' (I use quotes because a lot of people insist they are very hard and so I am showing it's an opinion) because it gives people leeway. You don't NEED to be a cleric/bard/RDD just to survive. You can make the RP builds everyone talks about.

in my opinion no, if anything, easier spawns at least for the 3- 10 range entice lowbies to stick around.

When i was in my pnp group we said to hell with lev 1 charries and started at 5 why? because you want some of the niceties that flesh out the class. Let them get to 10 with only moderate pressure..

again just my opinion..

But the early levels already are really easy. Cordor Sewers and the even the trolls can be done with the most modest of preparations.

No, Amia is rather difficult. I've played for as long as some of the oldest players on this server and I've never reached 30 with any of my characters. I've also been around the server list a bit unlike some of the older players, and I've seen the diffculity rating.

Amia isn't hard, but it certainlty isn't easy. I hate to be the one to throw the powerbuilding stick, but it is the case. Amia is rampant with power builders, and this is why things seem easy. Stop powerbuilding and you won't have the issue.

Amia is quite easy for my monk/fighter/WM, for the most part. With a lot of luck I can even do beholders solo, and I can do Illithid fairly easily. I can't do Abyss or Actand though.

Is that powerbuilding? I don't have UMD. I'm simply "a build". What defines "powerbuild"? A pure sorc 30 can solo the entire server. I've seen it done. but in many people's heads, that's an RP build. No multiclassing. Is that powerbuilding?

TormakSaber wrote:

Amia is quite easy for my monk/fighter/WM, for the most part. With a lot of luck I can even do beholders solo, and I can do Illithid fairly easily. I can't do Abyss or Actand though.

Is that powerbuilding? I don't have UMD. I'm simply "a build". What defines "powerbuild"? A pure sorc 30 can solo the entire server. I've seen it done. but in many people's heads, that's an RP build. No multiclassing. Is that powerbuilding?

I consider powerbuilding more focusing on attributes and skills based around success in combat, or furthering sucess in combat. Such an a Sorc/Pally who prances around naming himself a spell sword, and wearing full plate, then taking it off to cast.

I'd consider some Sorc builds to be powerbuildish. They can usually be located in the form of Sorc's that use completely the typical battle line up of items.

But perhaps I'm wrong then Tormak. Perhaps it's not powerbuilding thats the issue, but how the monsters are built themselves. The other trend I've noticed beyond the ability to tweak a build to full combat effiency, is that the monsters on Amia lean very very much in favor of spell casters. Not really that many monsters on Amia that hurt spell casters, but take a beat from melee characters.

An example is that every second creature you encounter in most places on Amia above level 14(?), has fear on them.

It has very little to do with build, and a lot to do with some basic knowledge of partying. A pure fighter, a 16 Bard, a Dex Monk and a multiclass Cleric will do fine in their level range, if they equip the right gear and use the right buffs for the spawns they're fighting. Why are you trying to bash that Premonition with +3 weapons? Why aren't you Imp. Invised? Why don't you wear Acid resistance gear against the beetles, and Poison immunity in the She-kats? Why are you running Power Attack if your AB isn't enough to hit them regularly without it? Why don't you cast the cheap Protection from Alignment when those nasty undead try to scare you? Etc.

Yeah, I think Amia is a bit too easy for me. But I've played the game a good while. And I offset that ease simply by refusing to buy stuff like Bubbly Potions and other consumables that aren't absolutely necessary. And because I'm too lazy to buy them, I guess.

It has taken a turn for the more difficult. Partly thanks to monster tuning and partly thanks to the new AI. It was more easy back then, and I think it's good that it is not getting any harder. Because that would be the server turning towards those that make efficient builds and leaving more and more RP-builds behind.

I call an efficient build one that looks very closely at how its classes work together, and a RP build one that doesn't. Pure caster classes are relatively easy to do right, multiclassing is more difficult.

Maybe the old-trusty spawns should be reworked? Swap around abit in the ranks, give the shaman/mages/cleric some new tricks, give the melees new weapons, add new mobs, swaps some skins and possibly lower the rewards just slightly? Or simply put some very used hunting ground on vecation? A fun event? dungeon-ABC is finnaly ridded of XYZ then after awhile 123 moves in?

Wereseagulls.

Power builds should not be a issue really, not as long as the PowerBuilder also RPs. To me one of the things I have seen that turns me off, or would have in the past, is all the OOC chatter that spam a area when your RPing. I have found myself doing the old //OOC talk now and again, its something I am aware of and will try to stop on my end. It doesn’t bother me as much now because I concentrate on the RP of the character I am playing rather then focusing on all the chatter and others RP.

Allot of times people can get lost in all the spam in a RP situation with multiple players without the OOC chatter, its almost impossible for me to keep track of what is going on with all of the //OOC says and I need to scroll up to see what I had missed, it at times ruins the moment. I am not saying to try and stop it but perhaps the players themselves can limit it more on their own. Too much of it can turn off new players if they are not used to it or are there strictly to RP.

the only "bad" builds are PvP builds who's players only do the minimum RP that is needed to "Pown dat noob".

I feel like DC requesting a sword that auto kills all hostile epics sometimes :evil:

Quote:

the only "bad" builds are PvP builds who's players only do the minimum RP that is needed to "Pown dat noob".

Like who? I never see this really. Most people who I encounter with my one "PvP build" character pick fights with him (albeit understandably), which was precisely the reason I rebuilt him to be better in fighting players, although I still often lose on purpose, feeling he's too dumb to be smart enough to know to do certain things.

However, I've never gotten a "hey good RP man " for losing a fight by not drinking a heal pot or mind blank. In fact, I've never really seen myself or anyone else ever complemented for losing at anything on Amia, especially if they intended to do so. The problem isn't PvP happy people per se, but the "I gotta win" attitude which is just as rampant in PvM, and PvDM as anywhere else. It seems like whenever this subject comes up though, someone feels the need to bash players who PvP a lot.
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Anyway...more on the topic. If I had my way, I'd remove random hunting entirely. It isn't that the spawns are too hard, too easy, or delicious porridge goldilocks but that hunting is repetitive and boring on the one hand, and often has the flimsiest OOC justifications for engaging in it on the other. I'd replace random "hunting" with a combination of the following 4 things:

1) Greatly increasing the XP value of one-shot scripted quests, but make them require teamwork of various classes to do and allow for breaks in between areas to RP out. Most hunting is a constant rush because you're worried about your buffs running out on the one hand, and because there's nothing new for you to ever say about the area you're in, character-wise. He's probably been there a thousand times before, randomly whacking things.

2) Make "war zone" or "guard duty" type areas, where PCs could sign up for merc or guard work with other PCs of different levels and just camp out most of the time until a spawn of enemies soldiers advanced or raiders popped up. One of the best RP times I had that involved combat was camping out with everyone in the Nes'ek battles. It made sense for people to be there, affected the world, and was just generally fun, regardless of how hard or easy the fights were. Unfortunately you didn't get any XP for doing it.

3) Seriously, start being a lot freer with the DCs. I'd greatly increase the frequency at which they get handed out, even set up some auto-system if a player regularly performs certain RP tasks if possible, and also greatly increase the XP they give. Right now it's kind of a joke to use them for XP but they are way overpowered when it comes to getting fancy gear. Uberloot should be limited to DM plots only IMO, and if you want DCs for an item it should be an RP one or just something that it's hard for your character to get otherwise but still isn't more powerful than something you could mythal.

4) I know someone is going to say "you're supposed to be adventurers" but no one is "adventuring" grinding giants three or four times in a row, so boost that job XP way the hell up too. If a rogue gets XP for disarming traps, why doesn't a fletcher get it for making arrows? They're both technical tasks, not necessarily related directly to "combat". If it's some "risk/reward" thing, just make the job system required more GP investment to get good XP out of somehow, like running a real business except your putting in GP for XP and not GP for more GP later.

If whack-a-mole areas were kept at all after the above 4 things, I'd knock down the amount of XP they given by quite a bit, so that there's generally better ways to get your XP and if you're out there it's because you're exploring or have an RP reason to be gutting things that somehow manage to keep reproducing despite getting their population wiped out every server reset. The way gaining XP is on Amia now is why it feels to me like a social/action server, where you have barely IC "hunting" on the one hand and disconnected cliquish giggle/hugglefests on the other, because the two aren't integrated.

Last edited by TormakSaber on Fri, Oct 16 2009, 0:06 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Quote:

Uberloot should be limited to DM plots only IMO, and if you want DCs for an item it should be an RP one or just something that it's hard for your character to get otherwise but still isn't more powerful than something you could mythal.

"DMs only give items to their friends"

EDIT:

Quote:

3) Seriously, start being a lot freer with the DCs. I'd greatly increase the frequency at which they get handed out, even set up some auto-system if a player regularly performs certain RP tasks if possible, and also greatly increase the XP they give

Oh, and Nekh.. I called this one. No one will be happy until DCs are 1 a level, and then they won't be happy ith that, either.

Wait... there's something wrong with going from level 1 to 30 in three days? :roll:

Quote:

"DMs only give items to their friends"

Uh...what? I'm guessing you're trying to say limiting ueberloot to DM plots would create resentment, but if that's case, I can only reply that catering to people inclined to be envious and resentful is never good policy. The whole staff of Amia's general credo seem to be "what's going to result in less whining?" on every issue imaginable.

Quote:

Oh, and Nekh.. I called this one. No one will be happy until DCs are 1 a level, and then they won't be happy ith that, either.

Probably because they *ought* to be. Why do you get cranky about this and not the expectation that there ought to be supremely fertile and/or horny monsters everywhere who seem to have nothing else to do than reproduce in order to be xp for random adventurers? The latter attitude hurts RP *far* more than expecting to get rewarded for doing RP. It's just an inane MMORPG convention that you gain levels by running into areas and killing everything mindlessly but it's horrid for getting players to want to RP out their "adventures" together.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Quote:

Uberloot should be limited to DM plots only IMO

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

You are right about the must win attitude, winning at all cost not only diminishes the other players fun but also your own, that’s not to say you need to always loose also, needs to be willing to lose for the RP and fun for all involved as well as win for the same reasons.

When a player decides to allow themselves to lose, even a level 30 loosing against a few level 4s can be a blast and create more RP then plowing through those low level characters. On the same note though, those lower level players need to also understand and learn when to back down and escape when given that opportunity. RP your character, not your level or your build and you will find that when you create more fun for others that your own fun shall increase dramatically.

The one thing about the spawns are that they all are predictable, you know if you go to this area here or that one there a spawn will happen, that makes it too repetitive in my opinion. Perhaps even a way to mix up the spawns as well, a chance some mega spawn will show up where normally none do. Bashing for exp is inevitable and its up to the players to integrate their RP with it, not the DMs. Players need to help the DMs in the building the character of the server as much as the DMs help the players, we all are here together to create.

Last edited by ticket on Fri, Oct 16 2009, 5:36 AM, edited 2 times in total.

MoshingChris wrote:

I'm just wondering if its partly because Amias too easy? Discos new, now old xp system has made getting to 25 effectively risk free. What i'm getting at is, levelling has become less Adventuring and more a chore to get to 30, boss grinding and RPing.

It's all about information.
1. You know how to play - Easy. Learned by playing NWN.
2. You know how to build - Medium. Can be learned by reading NWNWiki & the Build Thread.
3. You know the module - Difficult. Only learned by repeated playing. Changes, gears, monsters, and miscellaneous stuffs.

Once you mostly know about all of the above, you are assigned the prestigious but stigmatized title of a Powergamer. Congratulations.

Anyways I'm not saying module info should be disclosed to the public. I'm just saying that the more you do something it obviously becomes easier and easier each time. So to answer your question...

Knowing 1 & 2 but not 3 makes Amia challenging. Knowing 1 makes it hard. Being a fresh newbie and not knowing all 3 can make Amia seem very very hard. I know because I went through them.

MoshingChris wrote:

Are Amias spawns to easy?

If yes

Is the ease of Amias spawns detrimental in keeping your interest in the server?

It depends on the player.

For me, after a year here, it is easy - sometimes too easy even. (I'm looking at you FoD & Yaun-Ti!)

Does the ease of spawns make me want to leave? Hell no. I came to Amia first because it's the most populated server. I stayed because I find this "RP" thing fun, the module is constantly being improved & expanded, there's plenty of action to be had, and the great people I met.

Is the ease of spawns making it boring for you? Make flawed builds (and characters), that helped me keep interest. The characters I stick to the most are my weakest ones.

Reasons for old players to leave the server?

I will not speak for everyone and recently I have been trying to avoid generalizing when talking about things. You know what a headache this can be.

Anyway, as one of these old players on the server, ~my~ reasons are separated in "Open to All", AKA the leaving thread I made, and "Close to All", AKA a DM or two will know because it is related to OOC issues that, while I do not necessarily want to address, I feel the need to warn the staff. Not for my sake, but for what I believe (and yet I could be wrong) is for the good of the server if the DMs are aware that this and that are happening.

I might come back after or before issues are solved (or even apparently solved), but this usually depends on my own "willpower", comments made by friends (involved or not in said OOC issues) about how some things improved and, again, what has been going on in game.

That being said - and I am not sure if that is exactly a way to address your post, Chris, now I will address the other matters you pointed out:

MoshingChris wrote:

Are Amias spawns to easy?

If yes

Is the ease of Amias spawns detrimental in keeping your interest in the server?

It depends on perspective.

If you know that part of DnD is kind of synonym of being part of a group, then it is easy: you will know that if you want to slay monsters, you will need a group. You might be able to do it alone, but things will be easier and more enjoyable if you have more people with you in your group. More people also means less gold spent on potions and Raise Dead scrolls because the party might probably act effectivelly against spawns: more people is, after all, better against a group of spawns than a single character against a group of spawns.

Amia can be easy and hard in many different levels, spawn-wise. However, there is a fact: a balanced party with different PCs of different classes, or a party consisted mostly (or entirely) of PCs with the same classes, but that uses of strategy to make it work will find out that hunting can be pretty easy and when they add RP to that - regardless if you did that hunting a thousand times before with other people - there is no boredom.

MoshingChris wrote:

What i'm getting at is, levelling has become less Adventuring and more a chore to get to 30, boss grinding and RPing.

It can happen to older players, yes. But from my own experience, this also depends on mood: I know that many a time I went solo hunting because I was too busy thinking in some RL problems to get fully immersed in RP.

Recently, before I decided for this break, whenever I would enter a hunting party, I would always OOC ask (and I know I will probably be yelled at for admiting to doing this) if people meant to RP while hunting, or just hunting. This kind of approach would make it less frustrating for me because I would join a party knowing that if I was in the mood for RP as we hunted, the other players would be too. Or, in case they were not and I was not either, no-one would get frustrated at anyone.

If the party was in the mood for RPing and I was not, I would politely decline. Or, maybe, I would join anyway and try to get in the mood for the RP. If I found out I was unable to join their mood, I would leave. If I got in their mood, we would have fun.

So, boredom might be a way to explain the loss of interest. But, really, in this case, it is not the server that people should blame, but themselves.

Is this what you wanted to know when making this thread, Chris? I am sleepy and might have misunderstood you.

EDIT: Oh, Wyjyn, are you sure what you are discussing/talking to Tormie is what the OP meant when he made this thread?

Do not get me wrong, but seems you are going on a tangent here and this issue you have, might be better taken to PMs or made into another thread.

To be honest, I doubt the challenge of spawns has anything to do with why people leave. If they wanted a tougher challenge, they could simply make a character concept that is weaker in battle and try that.

I bet the No.1 reason for people leaving is just because they get bored of the server, having played on it, and the game, for so long.

I still think give the Yuan-ti HIPS and watch the fun begin!

I am a sucker for variety. See how there's like 7 different types of kobolds in the caves? That's the stuff I love.

See how there's only 2 types of Fire Giants? That makes me sad.

Yeah, not really my style either. I always ask Uce for 4-5 grunts, a few squad leaders, and a boss, just to be able to make 3 different spawngroups in an area.

On the other hand, just adding diversity because of diversity gets you silliness like the old Amia Forest spawngroups with pixies, ettins, spiders, dogs, and medusas all happily coexisting.

"Shut up Mosh you dirty powerbuilder"

Really, I don't think there's any major issue with the mobs' difficulty level. Some ought to be enhanced, of course. The reason why you make so many characters is your lousy attention span, not how easy it is to make one.

My guess is many would play Amia a lot less, if levelling was made even more difficult. Do mind that you are well above the average when it comes to 1-upping a character - for some getting a character to level 30 is a procedure of more than four months! You have your 101 self-rebuilds and two thousand different characters to thank for that.

I have to agree with the talking potato. I, for example, have only had one maxed out character the whole time I've been on Amia. I think the spawns are not too hard and not too easy, it's at a nice middle. I think that suits nicely with more people.

You can always increase the difficulty for yourself by:

Equipping yourself poorly.
Refusing to use potions and scrolls for buffs.
Hunting higher level spawns.
Partying with idiots.

The first three should do the trick, though.

Collectively known as "being a miser", and it doesn't help. I do the same and I still haven't had that much of difficulty.

Actually i have my 101 characters helping other folks with limited attention spans make new characters. Truefax.

IronAngel wrote:

You can always increase the difficulty for yourself by:

Equipping yourself poorly.
Refusing to use potions and scrolls for buffs.
Hunting higher level spawns.
Partying with idiots.

The first three should do the trick, though.

You can also just suck in building and equipping your character. I can give lessons in this for anyone who's willing to give it a go.

Increased difficulty and challenge rating guaranteed!

I already included equipment! I'm fairly sure that someone who knew how to equip and buff the worst of your builds would have quite an easy time in Amia, too. Barring a few very specific exceptions, I doubt a build on its own makes Amia difficult, because there's so much you can make up for in equipment, buffs and tactics. (Assuming you're not soloing.)

True enough. That's why anyone trying Method Nekhy for added challenge value would have to do things just the way I do them. Not the way they'd do it with poor builds.

I'm going to one up you all. I challenge you to switch off party xp and gold for killing monsters and level 1 - 30 purely via the job system and quests.

soundofastream wrote:

I'm going to one up you all. I challenge you to switch off party xp and gold for killing monsters and level 1 - 30 purely via the job system and quests.

Unfortunately, there are ways to gain almost more xp from the job system than you can otherwise get from killing monsters.

Well, perhaps that's not unfortunate...

O? Which ways?

Mr Mago wrote:

Unfortunately, there are ways to gain almost more xp from the job system than you can otherwise get from killing monsters.

Well, perhaps that's not unfortunate...

Hush you! Shhhhhh! Let's keep that a secret mmmkay? *sly wink*

I'd like to point out that a LOT of people know the methods to defeating enemies, know what level to defeat them, and what items to wear when fighting them. This means that the monsters are fine, rather it's that people just know to much about them, or hunt to much. A lot of the complainers about the difficulty level are good builders and have been on Amia for a long time.

There is no need to make monsters harder, but rather make monsters with different ways to be defeated. Rather then the usual "Fear + Fort Max + DR + Elemental damage". Just needs more varity, not harder monsters.

Last edited by Azrael on Fri, Oct 16 2009, 14:27 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Teufel Eldritch wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Unfortunately, there are ways to gain almost more xp from the job system than you can otherwise get from killing monsters.

Well, perhaps that's not unfortunate...

Hush you! Shhhhhh! Let's keep that a secret mmmkay? *sly wink*

Know what time it is?

Time to look at your job logs! Tehehehe

Dev Disco wrote:

O? Which ways?

Orchadier, you get a lot of XP for that. Burglar gets a feck load of XP to considered.

Just so you are all aware. If you know a bug or something like this, and you use it, thats taking advantage of a known issue. On almost every other server around, thats a perm ban offense. No argument. I'd say it would be well within' Disco's right to threaten people who abuse bugs and balance issues with Bans or character wipes.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

There is no need to make monsters harder, but rather make monsters with different ways to be defeated. Rather then the usual "Fear + Fort Max + DR + Elemental damage". Just needs more varity, not harder monsters.

I don't think anyone's seriously pushing for harder monsters at this point. I'd like a challenge, personally, but I have some regard for the welfare of the entire server so I know it's a bad idea.

I think I'm arguing that Amian spawns certainly aren't too diffcult, either. If you pay some attention to what you're doing, equip yourself with some rudimentary skill and get a party of 3-4, you'll have no trouble.

Ahh, yes, Burglar needs some looking at. What exactly causes the Orchard one to be so easy?

Well, per my bug report, half the time I can't get Burglar to even work, on ANY door. The gold is too good (prolly should be cut in half) but the xp is ok if you ask me. Mind, I've never tried the same door twice in one reset or doing rounds so I don't know what the cooldown is per door.

I've got orcharder too but can't figure out that comment either as at most I've seen is 2 trees and a juice press on a map. Ok, that's 4 rolls for xp, then it's cooldown time. Maybe there's an orchard with 10 trees I haven't found yet.

Something mut have happened to the burglar, as it seems that doors can only be used once by ONE burglar per reset. So if you come after that said burglar, you cant burgle.

Well, that would certainly solve the excessive xp problem. [/satire]

I doubt it's setup that way though.

Disco wrote:

What exactly causes the Orchard one to be so easy?

It's because 1 job let's you perform 2 tasks per ingredient you get. There's one place where you can get 36 fruit per reset. So that's potentially 36 shots at XP from picking it, 36 shots at exp from juicing it, and if you take Drink Merchant, more shots at XP and gold from selling it. All from 1 location. Going to another area can net you an addition 27 fruit... and another 54 shots at xp.

Thats so much less than when the Job System was first implemented.

Levelled a Drow through the Orchard system from level 3 - 24 in three days. One area was netting approximately 24k per reset from what i recall.

I want this back. Fix the job system, Make it real competition for the grinding. I'm bored sick of grinding! i want to pick daisies all day, with a PvP build. I want it so when my character actually gets Violent, it means something!

I would say that aside from a few here and there, most of Amia's monsters are hard enough to not be complete pushovers. Generally when things are too easy I find it's because the things I'm facing are low enough level to only give 1 XP.

People go and grind stuff that is too easy because they won't get out of their comfort zone and start parties which will go fight harder, riskier monsters. And because when they win against those monsters, they get called powergamers.

Ironically the real powergamers are the ones killing heaps of even-level monsters to get to level 30 as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

*Nudge nudge* Psst... Do HiPS spammer fighters count in powerbuilding when we reach level 6 SD and stay as that...?

*Ahem* Anyways! If you want easy spawns, you may wanna slooooowly turn away from hunting altogether and count on, like triple number said, picking daisies and use them for picking up RP bar women. Then just keep going to happy 'fade to black' land from there until you're continuously giving DC's to use for levelling yourself up!

....Now that's a thought....

Oh! And yeah the equipment choices are useful aswell. My Sarnor'Zotreth(Warrior/WM) was level 10 and wore a piercing or slashing resist belt and went to that old Mystra tower in the Forest where all the Werewolves and Dire puppies are, and I must admit things went straight easy from there. What fighter needs INT when you're dragged around mindlessly anyway as if you were shopping?

I swear I posted in this topic.... I swear....

How drunk was I last night?

Just a thought:

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