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Dev Disco
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 Posted: Tue, Oct 13 2009, 20:55 PM |
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HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
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Wyjyn wrote: Yeah, but it does render the argument against it fairly moot really. Come on, a portal to Khem is like waking up in England and being in Beirut five minutes later. Why does lord wiltun even have a portal to Khem on the roof of his keep!? Seems like a bad idea for security personally. Nothing so bad about it, but at the same time not sure its fair to shoot down another idea for being somewhat eclectic given the standard already set.
Come on, you know why Khem was made as it is now and that such a portal is a means to an end. Sorry, I am not into ideologically perfect solutions to a problem, I am into the ones that make the bloody thing work. It's not perfect, and it's certainly not something that I accept as a "O, this can be done, so that can be done as well" excuse. We're not at the Kindergarten anymore.
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
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Kjetta
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Posted: Tue, Oct 13 2009, 20:57 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Location: A Clean, Well-Lighted Place
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I am aslo not shooting down any ideas, my beef is with a certain type of arguement being used to pitch ideas for Amia.
I prefer we develop towards a focused and detailed server, rather than a server that attempts to be a mini Faerun, which is what we will become if we allow the arguement [It's big in Faerun -> It "deservers" a presence on Amia] to govern our developement.
_________________ To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Tue, Oct 13 2009, 21:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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I'm just defending his right for the idea, given that far more far fetched ideas are and probably will be implemented in the future. I see what you are getting at, Nes'ek existed before it was lorewise moved to Khem. Relax about it, I am not getting angry I find it funny more than anything. There is just something odd about one minute being on an island in the trackless sea and the next being deep under the Alamber ocean. When you have a situation like that, its hard to really say "no, your idea is too out there for us".
_________________
Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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Dev Disco
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Posted: Tue, Oct 13 2009, 21:04 PM |
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HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
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Well, those portals are actually very lore-kosher. There's a whole series on 'em in the WotC site. If you read that you won't be surprised a portal opens up in your own character's bum one day... I hope not the type that allows carts to pass.
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
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hendrack
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Posted: Tue, Oct 13 2009, 21:08 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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What's an entire region related to a shrine of some god or devil? Bad comparison in the first place and more arguing for arguments sake. Besides, there are other portals in Amia too that throw you not only into different places of Faerun, but into other planes. Forrstakkr -> Abyss, duh?
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Tue, Oct 13 2009, 21:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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Nothing wrong with the portal, but it is eclectic. You surely must admit that? I am more making the comparison that compared to a portal to the middle of the desert/abyss/triumvir/shadowplane, a shrine to Asmodeus is a drop of water next to the Niagra Falls.
I have no personal interest in the shrine whatsoever, just defending the idea.
_________________
Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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hendrack
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Posted: Tue, Oct 13 2009, 21:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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Well, many things are requested to be added to the module for some idea. Yet there are dozens of empty places in Amia that wait to be filled with roleplay and character ideas. Thats what we desert monkeys did, the area was there before and we seized the opportunity to fill that area with characters.
Clearly you must see the point of the DMs as well in that regard.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Tue, Oct 13 2009, 21:32 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Wyjyn wrote: Nothing wrong with the portal, but it is eclectic.
I think that's sort of Kjetta's point, and I agree with it: it is eclectic, and it should be. There's no compelling reason to choose elves over dwarves, Silverymoon over Waterdeep, horror over fantasy action; but there is good reason not to fit all of it together. Also, Hume's guillotine: the status quo doesn't tell us what we should do now. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Tue, Oct 13 2009, 21:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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I thought Hume was saying you cannot tell what 'ought' to be from what 'is' in that predicting a correct path of cultural change is very hard if not impossible from within a system. Not sure Hume is really in support of the argument you are running, tbh. In fact, he is probably more along the lines of my own. Amia has allowed strange, eclectic things. Amia is a server that allows eclectic things. You cannot tell from that that amia ought not to continue allowing eclectric things.
_________________
Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Tue, Oct 13 2009, 21:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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That's what Hume says, yes, and I do think it supports my argument rather than yours:
You say it's silly to oppose adding everything/anything to Amia, because we've already added strange stuff in the past -> you use facts, such as past decisions and the existance of the Khem portal, as an argument to support that we ought to add such stuff now.
While my argument is independent of the current state of things. I don't say we ought not add everything/anything because we're a server that adds eclectic things (which would be nonsensical in every other way, too). I am saying we ought not add everything/anything irrespective of what has been done before and what's in game now. Neither I nor Kjetta used "what is" as a premiss for "what ought" but I think you did.
To clarify further. As I see it, my argument goes like this: "We want a detailed, immersive server with believable regions we can keep under control. I believe that is not achieved by adding a little bit of everything, but rather by focusing on certain areas. Hence we should focus on certain areas."
While your argument seems to be like this: "Amia has a variety of unusual things. Conclusion: Amia should have more unusual things." The motive isn't apparent (to me); why should we continue expanding, rather than focus on the great material we have now and improve that?
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Tue, Oct 13 2009, 22:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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I think you are looking at it in a slightyl different way. If you are correct, then capitalism is not one system but a multitude of different systems every time a new business is created or a new product launched. I think my argument stands because regular updates and changes have always been a part of what amia 'is', and those changes have always seemed fairly whimsical to me and certainly never seemed to be about creating a cohesive setting particularly. In terms of mood, Wiltun itself is drastically different from Amia and it is an area that was not created so long ago. If you were to say "make no updates or changes ever again" that in itself would be a change and stating what ought to be from what is (the world ought to have less strange changes). Anyway, I think its debateable either way and probably going a bit far with it.
I just don't think you should reject the idea on this basis, but rather should just say "We dont want to"/"There is not a demand".
_________________
Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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Kjetta
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Posted: Tue, Oct 13 2009, 22:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Location: A Clean, Well-Lighted Place
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I am not even that opposed to the shrine itself, I know nothing about this devil. I am simply opposed to the notion of someting deserving a presence on Amia because it is big in Faerun. Amia is not a reflection of all of Faerun, and all the places featured in Amia (the server) may very well and should deviate from the greater average of the setting, as all other places in Faerun do. Lathander is a major god, but he doesn't have a temple in Skuld. I am all for Amia being eclectic, of course, but I think we should add whatever elements we mix because they are cool, and not because they are warranted by the simple fact of being major parts of the setting.
_________________ To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 2:27 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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I'm with Iron and Kjetta on this. I've always felt that an aspect of Forgotten Realms "deserves" as much attention/effort put into it as the amount is put into by PC's. For instance if X is a greater deity in Faerun and Y is a lesser deity, but more Amian characters follow Y than X, then so what if some lore book says the greater deity has more temples and a following in Toril? Amia's in the FR setting, yes, but it isn't ever said that everything is spread out completely even.
FR actually quite often states that deities have centers of worship. Just like how in Tantras even though Torm is a lesser deity, he probably has more direct followers than Tyr there, I'd think at least. When you think about it like that, it actually validates the amount of "good" drow in Amia, the Isle is simply a center of the Dark Maiden's faith. That's the IC explanation, but the OoC would simply be a lot PC's seems to play Eilistraeen drow, and therefore the faith group gets a good chunk of RP, regardless of what any book says "most drow" are.
Anyway, nothing stops you from rping building a shrine or encouraging others ICly to turn to Asmodeous. Preaching gospel and urging people to convert(semi-passively, at least) turns out to be great RP I've found with my cleric. You'd be surprised how many people, especially low, new PCs and players, that might convert or even just help out if you just tell them whatever your god is about. DM's tend to add things IC or give plots to factions based upon how active and good the RP is. Get a few folks worshiping Asmodeous with you, or maybe just a stellar job yourself, who knows what'll happen? 
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 3:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Well you have Meph, and he's an arch devil, he also has bugger all PC worshippers, you have a few other arch devils and demons, including the most powerful demon, I guess it makes sense to have to top of the pile devil in the system to. After all, it gives a ruling class to the devil list.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 3:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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... um... what is this topic actually about? No fluff, no argument, just shorthand... I'm not going to read 90 posts of Wyjyn, Kjetta, and Iron arguing in circles.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 3:47 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Wyjyn supporting the OP's idea for a shrine because of Asmodeous' status in the realms and lore, Kjetta and Iron not necessarily disagreeing that he could have one on Amia, but saying it should come about by PC's working towards it or showing interest, not just "plopped" down somewhere by DM's just because of FR lore says he has a large following.
I think that's about it, but forgive me if I've paraphrased incorrectly.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 3:54 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Oh. I agree with my DMly partners then. Asmodeus, and, well, basically every archdevil except, to a small degree, Glasya and Bel, had really had no PC backing on Amia. Demons have had more success due to zanshibon.
Sure, disco can simply add an idol, but as a certain gnome of Baervan Wildwanderer (is that the deity?) can attest, it is probably more fun to do the RP in game and work for it.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Burgo
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 5:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 25 May 2005
Location: In the pocket of a giant holding the worlds upon his shoulders.
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Quote: I was wondering, if there is a shrine for Asmodeus? As there is one for Mephistoteles, I should think that Asmodeus, whose cult is far bigger than meph's, deserves one too.
I replace "deserve" with "could have", as it obviously was this word that made my whole question so out there. Also I retain as I am nto an english major, maybe from time to time, these questions could come out wrong.
Still, this was never about requesting a shrine for the Prince of Darkness, I don't need one, I can do well without one. I was just wondering, and -asking- the dm staff about lore of the island. OOCly. In my years amongst rp's of all kinds I have never thought that questioning about certain lore is a bad thing, I always thought it is encouraged, as it creates a better atmosphere amongst all, and this is why DM's are there. They plan the story, the lore, the on goings on the setting. If I don't ask them about these things,. whome do I ask them about. Certainly I won't go about, with my devil worshipping scumbag, who pretty much wants tyo keep that he even worships such a being secret, and ask from the public, around the city he lives in? So I just wanted to know, if I even shoudl be searching for such a place? I didn't want to know the exact location, or even the region, just that if it is in the module.
Still to emphasize, this was never about requesting one. It was a mere question. Sorry if, with my english that is lacking in the best case, it came out wrong.
_________________
"A pair of powerful spectacles has sometimes sufficed to cure a person in love."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
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Dev Disco
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 8:39 AM |
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HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
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If people do the RP and collect resources (I guess a few slabs of granite and a bar of gold will do) I don't mind to add the idol. I guess that should be the governing principle. I see both Wyjyn's and Iron/Kjetta's side, and the best way is probably somewhere in between.
I am not gonna add stuff for the sake of completeness. WotC doesn't add them for completeness either, just to sell more books.
Amia's geography is glorious, btw.
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
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BlackDahlya
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 9:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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Dev Disco wrote: I am not gonna add stuff for the sake of completeness. WotC doesn't add them for completeness either, just to sell more books.
This one made me giggle. x)
_________________
BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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Dev Disco
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 9:06 AM |
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HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
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It's true, though.
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
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-Cloak-and-Dagger-
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 10:17 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Location: England
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TormakSaber wrote: Oh. I agree with my DMly partners then. Asmodeus, and, well, basically every archdevil except, to a small degree, Glasya and Bel, had really had no PC backing on Amia. Demons have had more success due to zanshibon.
Sure, disco can simply add an idol, but as a certain gnome of Baervan Wildwanderer (is that the deity?) can attest, it is probably more fun to do the RP in game and work for it.
Baravar Cloakshadow.
But yes. Takes longer, but more fun, and more satisfying. Even if you dont -need- one (Niether did I), you might -want- one, someday. If spreading Asmodeus' influence is something your character would want to do, regardless of any OOC knowledge of needless mechanical advantages from non-clerical praying, do it IC. Send a PM to a DM and see if you can work something out. I'd definetly consider it, building one could attract more characters to him for you to have some fun with. 
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 10:37 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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The real thing to remember, and this is the point being made by the DM's, is that while Amia is based upon the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting, just because somethings printed in a source book for the FRCS doesn't mean it's in Amia, or should be arbitrarily.
That's really the only point he's make, and I agree with it. There are many aspects of Amia that are "Homebrew", and this is how it should be. Considering how much of an effort the DM's (Iron, Tormak, Kjetta, for one) put into documenting the background and historicals of Amia, I can see why they might get a bit peeved when the 1100'th person posts
"Hey, according to this FR sourcebook, this is how it should be".
May I suggest:
"Hey, I saw this in a FR sourcebook... is this how it is on Amia, or is it different?"
Equally, DM response, as I think was observed, needs to come off polished and neutral, without emotional governance. Think... "passive", think "Professional".
May I suggest:
"While I don't see any issue with this, I don't think it's going to work in OUR campaign setting. Let me bring the issue up with the rest of the DM team, and see what they think?"
Regards,
_________________ 
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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Dev Disco
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 10:40 AM |
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HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
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Bleh. I rather have the opinions right away.
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 10:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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Yes, and I understand that, but you said to address this in the relevant posts, so I am.
Opinions offered right off is fine, I'm simply trying to help out in the delivery because, if you read the thread, you can see where things kinda slid out for a moment, which resulted in the OP going "whoa".
Just positive suggestions to elevate the moral, nothing more Disco.
Regards,
_________________
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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O'Raghailligh
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 10:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Location: NZ
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Here's the question, very straight forward and clear:
Burgo wrote: I was wondering, if there is a shrine for Asmodeus? As there is one for Mephistoteles, I should think that Asmodeus, whose cult is far bigger than meph's, deserves one too. Here's the answer, just as straight forward and clear as the original question: Kjetta wrote: Find out ICly, fix ICly, work ICly, play the game! Do the stuff!
Done, finished, over with.
My two cents.
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Kjetta
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 11:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Location: A Clean, Well-Lighted Place
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Repeating myself here. All the exciting components of the Forgotten Realms are not evenly distributed, if it was, what would be the point of exploring? And so, seeing as Amia features specific places in (mostly) Faerun, and is not an attempt at a condensed version of the entire setting, it is not necessarily so that all and everything that is big or major parts of Faerun warrants a presence on our small part of the bigger picture.
That is not to say we can't have eclectic cool stuff, like shrines to devils or whatnot. That was never my beef. I was opposing the notions that we should implement stuff becauset they are warranted by being big or significant parts of the setting. No, we should add stuff because they are cool, fun, are warranted by IC actions or because we think they would add to the immersion of our parts of this fantasy world.
Guess it was the "deserved" that triggered my respons, yes, and all that's been cleared up. And I did not meant to come off as harsh in my delivery. Just ...passionate!
But yes, if you are to walk away from this mess with anything worthwile, it's to take notice of that you can indeed influence the world you play in with IC actions. If you want to erect a shrine, just gather fellow cultists and work for it. _________________ To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!
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colanah
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 11:38 AM |
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Player
Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Location: Lost In Thought
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Burgo wrote: Quote: I was wondering, if there is a shrine for Asmodeus? As there is one for Mephistoteles, I should think that Asmodeus, whose cult is far bigger than meph's, deserves one too. I replace "deserve" with "could have", as it obviously was this word that made my whole question so out there. Also I retain as I am nto an english major, maybe from time to time, these questions could come out wrong. Still, this was never about requesting a shrine for the Prince of Darkness, I don't need one, I can do well without one. I was just wondering, and -asking- the dm staff about lore of the island. OOCly. In my years amongst rp's of all kinds I have never thought that questioning about certain lore is a bad thing, I always thought it is encouraged, as it creates a better atmosphere amongst all, and this is why DM's are there. They plan the story, the lore, the on goings on the setting. If I don't ask them about these things,. whome do I ask them about. Certainly I won't go about, with my devil worshipping scumbag, who pretty much wants tyo keep that he even worships such a being secret, and ask from the public, around the city he lives in? So I just wanted to know, if I even shoudl be searching for such a place? I didn't want to know the exact location, or even the region, just that if it is in the module. Still to emphasize, this was never about requesting one. It was a mere question. Sorry if, with my english that is lacking in the best case, it came out wrong.
That and if a new player sees this topic and notes the impression of the response to a lore question, it might be off putting to them. Oooh to dance upon eggshells with our words. ><;; *hates having to do it sometimes.*
BTW Burgo, kudos on pulling up what seems to be a lesser known among the Evils even if Asmodeus is of apparently higher ranking. Personally I thought he was a lesser to middle fiend due to some IC RP with someone that...well...let's just say I questioned Asmodeus' tastes.
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Dev Disco
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 11:48 AM |
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HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
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Yeah, he's quite right. It's silly you almost have to apologise for asking a question, or be dragged into some ideological dispute instead of getting a simple answer to a simple question.
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 12:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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Which was all I was trying to point out in my last two posts, thanks Colenah for your words.
Delivery can often times be misperceived, especially on mediums such as these. It's again the speakers responsibility to ensure the target audience receives the message in the manner it was intended.
I've been told this on numerous occassions, and I'm still trying to work it into my personal communication habits, so it's certainly easier said than done...but the reward is worth the effort IMHO.
Regards,
_________________
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Oct 14 2009, 14:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Well: we've long since answered Burgo's question and moved onto other discussions. No need to make a new topic for Hume and general design policy, if the discussion naturally flows into that direction here.  _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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