AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

But a player - if they wanted a self rebuild, they would also have to take time (and energy) away grinding, and stop contributing to the world too.

Ah, but a player can still do their RP 'duties' while doing so, a DM cannot do their DM duties while grinding.

Last edited by corypx on Fri, Oct 09 2009, 14:04 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I must say if logic is DM could just play and get the exp lets just give them the rebuild so they could go DM side.

does that mean players could dupe under the logic of they could farm gold and epic loot but its not worth the time and lowers the total story time of amia?

corypx wrote:

does that players could dupe under the logic of they could farm gold and epic loot but its not worth the time and lowers the total story time of amia?

No. Because you can (and dare I say, should) still RP while doing that. a DM flat out cannot do their DM stuff while doing so. Furthermore, the player can ear DCs while doing so, the DM cannot.

Last edited by ticket on Fri, Oct 09 2009, 14:10 PM, edited 2 times in total.

@ Yurell: Hmm I'm not really articulate but I'll try to explain my thoughts.

I don't care if X is overpriced or not, if you want it you should pay for it. Just like everybody else. Price is always dependent on what you yourself make/have. What you make/have is proportional to the (perceived) work you do.

Paying for something you want (burger), even if you own it, might seem like a nonsense/ceremonial gesture to some but it's really about accountability to oneself and to others.

Is the burger too expensive for you to afford? Contemplate about lowering the price or raising your own salary, but still pay for it so your peers and others know & see that you worked for it. Simply taking it is the wrong way to go about it, imho.

Since we're being so transparent here in this thread regarding DMs and their 'pay', I say that they should just simply convert all their perks into X DC/Y Hour. Avoid all this confusion (better if they just didn't reveal anything at all in the first place, but it's too late for that now).

Them getting 1 DC/4 hours in the client plus all the free rebuilds they want would actually be equal to what, 1 DC/hour in the client? The consensus (if there's no consensus, then maybe it's just me) in this thread seems to be that 1 DC/4 hours DMing is acceptable but 1 DC/hour is too much.

Of course compounding the problem here is that the masses are subsisting below the poverty line and yet the DMs seem to be complaining about the burgers being too expensive. Considering they're in the position where they could afford it so much more than the masses, they have the balls to take as many burgers as they want whenever they want!

Nekhy wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

What active DM, who spends at least 20 hours in the DM client per week, and gets the adequate amount of DCs (aka, 5 DCs for 20 hours) that comes with it, would honestly bitch at having to spend, at the most, 33 DCs on a rebuild?

Sounds as if your DMs are spoiled, Nekhy.

People change their opinions all the time. That's what it comes down to. The customs change when the people think "Oh, well, let's try something different now". That's how this staff works, and it has nothing to do with being spoiled. But I've long since made the conscious decision (after trial and error) I am not gonna force the DMs to change their opinion on something with my 1337 Head DM powahs, but we'll make decisions as a team at the pace we feel suitable. It is often quite random, because many things aren't hot topics on the DM forums for reason or another, and at other times they come up again.

Let's see if I got this straight...

If the DMs hold a different set of opinions these days, compared to the old days... then why would you say the following:

Nekhy wrote:

I am not gonna shoot in my own leg and tell DMs to get off the client to grind if they wanna rebuild but don't wanna pay.

... in reply to this:

Mr Mago wrote:

I'm trying to put focus on how the current system isn't very sensible, that it needs to be reviewed, and how it can be that some DMs (such as yourself, Nekhy) are still seemingly defending it.

... which relates to this:

Nekhy wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Again, with 300+ possible DC's per year, from just DM'ing, a DM wouldn't even have to concern himself/herself with self-rebuilding. You basically crap out DCs, compared to -any- player out there, in the history of Amia.

I can understand the idea behind including the free rebuilds a long time ago, but that must have been an absolute brain fart by whoever did it, since they didn't manage to see how the vast amount of DCs DMs would be getting would give them as many DC-payed rebuilds they could ever want.

Not to mention, back then, DMs could give DCs to other DM's PC's. As you are well aware.

So back then, you -could- get DCs when self-rebuilding.

Again. Brain fart.

Well, you're assuming that DMs tend to get the maximum amount of DCs. They don't.

This perk was instated after DMs stopped receiving DCs from each other. It was ... sometime in 2006? A little after I was a DM. Again, you might think it's a brain fart, but it has its reasonings and it's not as messed up as you make it sound like. It works decently in its intended form. Which is not based on fairness, as I've said many times. Practicality, to keep DMs DMing most of the time instead of spending more time playerside.

So you're basically saying... that some of the old DMs didn't want to pay for their rebuilds, whilst some of those old DMs and some of the new DMs might have changed opinions, but using the fact that the old DMs didn't want to pay for their DC-rebuilds as an argument that free rebuilds for the current DMs is nessecary... current DMs who might have changed opinions and might be willing to pay for a DC-rebuild.

Am I understanding that correctly?

ticket wrote:

I don't care if X is overpriced or not, if you want it you should pay for it. Just like everybody else.

So you believe there shouldn't be free rebuilds at all? So no one can self rebuild?

Or is it that you believe a DM's time is better spent grinding for their levels than on the DM Client?

Anyway, I think we're reaching the end of this discussion. Your voice has been heard, our eardrums bleed, we're close to 10 pages, and arguments are getting as circular as Saturnus' rings.

By the way, I bet this thread has done exactly the opposite of what it was originally about: getting more events. I have this vague feeling DM motivation is now at rock bottom. Mine would be if I wasn't a chicken with tiny thoughts and a very selective memory.

My suggestion is to limit your posts to concluding remarks.

Yurell wrote:

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

But a player - if they wanted a self rebuild, they would also have to take time (and energy) away grinding, and stop contributing to the world too.

Ah, but a player can still do their RP 'duties' while doing so, a DM cannot do their DM duties while grinding.

DMs aren't contributing to Amia when they are PC side?

Or am I not getting it?

If a DM's entire purpose is to spend as much possible time DM-side as possible... then why is that so many DMs, during the history of Amia, has been seen far more often PC-side than DM-side?

Mind my previous post....

Yurell wrote:

ticket wrote:

I don't care if X is overpriced or not, if you want it you should pay for it. Just like everybody else.

So you believe there shouldn't be free rebuilds at all? So no one can self rebuild?

Or is it that you believe a DM's time is better spent grinding for their levels than on the DM Client?

I know how to fix it, remove the level diffrence cap, let 30s party with level ones and let them just fast track so noone would ever pay DCs for it.

ticket wrote:

@ Yurell: Hmm I'm not really articulate but I'll try to explain my thoughts.

I don't care if X is overpriced or not, if you want it you should pay for it. Just like everybody else. Price is always dependent on what you yourself make/have. What you make/have is proportional to the (perceived) work you do.

Paying for something you want (burger), even if you own it, might seem like a nonsense/ceremonial gesture to some but it's really about accountability to oneself and to others.

Is the burger too expensive for you to afford? Contemplate about lowering the price or raising your own salary, but still pay for it so your peers and others know & see that you worked for it. Simply taking it is the wrong way to go about it, imho.

Since we're being so transparent here in this thread regarding DMs and their 'pay', I say that they should just simply convert all their perks into X DC/Y Hour. Avoid all this confusion (better if they just didn't reveal anything at all in the first place, but it's too late for that now).

Them getting 1 DC/4 hours in the client plus all the free rebuilds they want would actually be equal to what, 1 DC/hour in the client? The consensus (if there's no consensus, then maybe it's just me) in this thread seems to be that 1 DC/4 hours DMing is acceptable but 1 DC/hour is too much.

Of course compounding the problem here is that the masses are subsisting below the poverty line and yet the DMs seem to be complaining about the burgers being too expensive. Considering they're in the position where they could afford it so much more than the masses, they have the balls to take as many burgers as they want whenever they want!

That pretty much sums it up.

I also find it quite interesting, how some of the DM staff have been suggesting taking away the vast amounts of gold from Amia's wealthiest PC's, in order to equal out the resources and allow everyone a fair chance to buy that epic loot they've soooo long been craving...

... while these very same DMs are taking a very naive, conservative and elitistic approach in their reasoning when it comes to the DM rewards and perks.

You're taking stuff out of context, Mago. What I was saying there is, that "this matter hasn't been discussed in a way that would have given us a reason to change things so far, or nobody in the staff has particularly complained or demanded that things change so far", so things have been as they have been for years. Now, you shouldn't guess too much the reasons why nobody has said "Oh, let's change it!". The chances are, nobody simply has thought about it that much before. Or when they have thought about it, other things came up and it wasn't again relevant. It's not that DMs rebuild very often, anyway, it happens once in a while but it's not something people think about a lot.

Now it's been discussed, as it came up and we'll see what our collective arse decides.

Yurell wrote:

ticket wrote:

I don't care if X is overpriced or not, if you want it you should pay for it. Just like everybody else.

So you believe there shouldn't be free rebuilds at all? So no one can self rebuild?

Or is it that you believe a DM's time is better spent grinding for their levels than on the DM Client?

There's no such thing as a free rebuild for a PC.

If you don't pay for your rebuild with hard earned DCs, you'll have to pay for it in time, by killing shitloads of mobsters.

DMs are so far the only ones getting absolutely free rebuilds.

Dev Disco wrote:

By the way, I bet this thread has done exactly the opposite of what it was originally about: getting more events. I have this vague feeling DM motivation is now at rock bottom. Mine would be if I wasn't a chicken with tiny thoughts and a very selective memory.

On the contrary, I've been involved in two very small, spontaneous events since this thread cropped up. The timing may just be poor, but I'm rather pleased with it either way, personally. I love mini-events, and I think certain DMs have heard me say it enough that they just wanna slap me when I mention it. :wink:

Overall, I think that so many people have said their mind about the topic at hand will have a positive effect, despite that most people automatically take a pessimistic approach to how they think the DMs will respond.

Concluding remarks, please. I will lock this in about 15 mins and I don't care if it's done halfway a discussion.

I say this without any ill feelings... but you really should read first.

Yurell wrote:

ticket wrote:

I don't care if X is overpriced or not, if you want it you should pay for it. Just like everybody else.

So you believe there shouldn't be free rebuilds at all?

Yes. Pay with DCs if you want levels with your rebuild. That's what DCs are for. That's what players pay for.

Yurell wrote:

So no one can self rebuild?

????
Sure they can.

Yurell wrote:

Or is it that you believe a DM's time is better spent grinding for their levels than on the DM Client?

That's a stupid question because it's loaded and so I won't even bother answering it.

I'm saying DMs should pay for their rebuilds with the DCs they make. If they don't make enough, then raise it. If rebuilds are expensive the lower them, but still pay for it with DCs.

Rebuilds, IMO, occur because:

1) RP events change the character's focus and, since PCs can't 'forget' their training when they take a new path, it is simulated by the rebuild; this may be anything from a feat or domain change to significant changes in classes and even stats

2) The PC is a NWN/D&D n00b and messes up their build from day 1

3) The rules change (eg. shifters, monks)

4) PCs want to tweak a powerbuild

I present these in order of decreasing validity (again, IMO). #1 could perhaps be solved by removing the level cap so that the levels in the new class would eventually outnumber the old, but that has so many other problems associated with it that even thinking of it is ridiculous.

I do believe that rebuilds can be valid and that they should be less expensive. If they were less expensive, perhaps there would be less opposition to having DMs pay for them.

This will not, of course, affect the DMs who never rebuild - those who are happy with their RP builds or who dont go playerside often (and who are more likely to spend DCs on levelling than rebuilding). The only DMs who might be worse off would be those who make a bunch of characters and tweak them to become familiar with different builds, but presumably they are out there self-levelling to actually test those builds in PvM/PvP and so arent buying levels with DCs....

In before lock :lol:

ticket wrote:

I say this without any ill feelings... but you really should read first.

ticket wrote:

if you want it you should pay for it. Just like everybody else.

Read.

ticket wrote:

Yes. Pay with DCs if you want levels with your rebuild. That's what DCs are for. That's what players pay for.

Leads directly to:

Yurell wrote:

Or is it that you believe a DM's time is better spent grinding for their levels than on the DM Client?

And you're damn right it's a loaded question - it's the decision you'd be forcing the DM to make, after all.

Consider that we, as players, don't have reasonable demands as to what we want from DMs. We want everything, and twice. Just do your thing, and as far as rulebreakers, offenders, rude people are involved.. they don't deserve respect if they don't give it. Crack down hard on these bastards.

Concluding remarks:

Try not to reveal the DM perks next time. ;D
More quests please.
<3 to the DMs.

Again, Yurell...

Removing DMs free rebuilds wouldn't by -any- means force them to spend less time in the DM client and more time grinding for xp.

I thought I already tried explaining this to you about 10 times.

Perhaps you really should follow ticket's advice, and -read-, rather than just push everything into philosophical irrelevance.

My conclusion is that the status quo is quite acceptable, although perhaps rebuild prices should be reduced preferably dramatically).

Nah, the best thing for all would be free rebuilds or much cheaper rebuilds. Then there's no "need" for DMs to get freebies, either. But it's a bit more complicated than that, as has been proven here.

Nekhy wrote:

Nah, the best thing for all would be free rebuilds or much cheaper rebuilds. Then there's no "need" for DMs to get freebies, either. But it's a bit more complicated than that, as has been proven here.

remove the level diffrence cap and I will sell my power leveling skills for like 1/2 or 1/4 the cost of the DC cost of paying for the DM done rebuild.

Mr Mago wrote:

Again, Yurell...

Removing DMs free rebuilds wouldn't by -any- means force them to spend less time in the DM client and more time grinding for xp.

I thought I already tried explaining this to you about 10 times.

Perhaps you really should follow ticket's advice, and -read-, rather than just push everything into philosophical irrelevance.

A tad rich coming from someone who also doesn't acknowledge anyone else's arguments.

Yurell wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Again, Yurell...

Removing DMs free rebuilds wouldn't by -any- means force them to spend less time in the DM client and more time grinding for xp.

I thought I already tried explaining this to you about 10 times.

Perhaps you really should follow ticket's advice, and -read-, rather than just push everything into philosophical irrelevance.

A tad rich coming from someone who also doesn't acknowledge anyone else's arguments.

I do. Most of the time I think they're quite crappy though. But if they're not... then I praise it.

EDIT: Wrong choice of wording.

Well, I think that's enough of this topic, then.

How wonderful. I disagree with your arguments as you constantly repeat the same ones, and that means that I don't read them. You disagree with the arguments presented by others (not necessarily myself) and the arguments are crappy.

Hehe. I might be mad but I like a bit of collective raging in General; it makes Amia seem so young and alive. Huzzah!

Anyways, I just want to say that it's not like we rebuild our characters each month or anything, just to stick it to you that we are the 1337.
Personally, I have never used the free rebuild perk. Not because of some moral objection though, just laziness. I, like most DMs, never really gave this perk much thought before this discussion.

About the DC system, I think the DM salary is justified by the shit we have to endure and all the boring things that we are expected to do/care about etc. Some parts of DMing are fun and cool, but much of it is just chores. Also, a lot of the frustration in this thread is probably justified frustration over the disparity between DM income and Good RPer income, but at the same time, I suspect a fair amount is just general DC angst. It's a system that rates the quality of your RP, after all. It's not a perfect system, by all means, and a lot of good RP goes unrewarded, but at the same time we do see a lot "bad RP" or "lacking RP" too.

The imperfect system, I'm sorry to say, wouldn't be closer to perfection if a lot of you got more DCs. Some of you spend most of your time in Party Chat, at least when I check up on you.

However, we are currently looking into it on our end. I urge you, the players, to step up your game on your end: RP more, RP better and RP with more consistency!

Kjetta

EDIT: Woot. Last word! (*coughcough*)

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