I assure you it is as frustrating, or possibly more, to go around and only find "The Usual Suspects" (who we have already determined we cannot DC, otherwise we're biased to them.) and everyone else mindlessly grinding, as it is for you to not get the DCs in the first place.
..Wait, what?
So there are actually people you won't give DCs, because if you do, you're "afraid" (lack of a better word, not taking a shot) that the playerbase will whine (with good reason, sure, but still)?
Ding ding ding.
Well, it comes quite naturally. Say, for example, I'd just posted holiday pictures with Phearnun and I'd see him online next day I'd think twice of rewarding him for good RP. Not just because he's a filthy Kraut (although it's completely normal not to reward him because his grandfather probably stole my grandmother's bike and they play awful soccer but always win) but because there's this little voice telling me what other people would think of this. It's completely unfair, but we're not logic machines.
That's awful! Sure, I understand the reasoning, but it sucks. Then again, I also think DMs should be just as able to receive DCs when they're on their characters, so maybe it's just me being all Insane-O.
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Well, as I explained.. systems like these evolve and we had good reasons to block DMs giving each other goodies at a certain moment. Besides, I guess current DMs have third, not even second, thoughts about rewarding other DMs.
As I said, this comes quite naturally to most people. Unfortunately there was a time when it didn't, and that's why we got the current system.
Letting the machine do the rewarding is quite good. We probably need to take a look at the calculation, though.
Joined: 12 Oct 2005 Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
One of the major stops for being DCed in my humble opinion, is the DC wand. Now I'm not entirely sure about other people, but I don't feel that I'm up to the task of deciding if my RP is good enough for a DC or not. More importantly, at times I'm rping with such an engrossed state that I completely forget to hit that DC wand. I only think I've used it twice perhaps. Possibly the reason for my lack of DC's, but honestly I don't rp for DC's and never will.
That being said, I know I'm not the only one who forgets because they get so caught up in what they are rping. It happens regularly, and is quite possibly one of the major factors that the playerbase feels DC's aren't given out enough. This being said, I can complain till I'm blue in the face, but I don't have a viable suggestion for an alternative system. Making my experiences rather just experiences, and not really worth noting beyond the fact that perhaps it is a cause for DC's not being handed out with such volume.
_________________ I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
I can't believe that Nekhy is actually supporting the idea of free rebuilds for DMs, and using herself, and here non-existant time spent on Amia DM'ing/Playing as an argument.
If you don't even have the time to DM, then how would you have gotten the time to play a PC in the first place?
Why should the simple fact that you're wearing a DM badge, which you don't live up to in-game, give you automated rewards?
I just can't agree with that mentality.
I'm glad that you know my DM hours, RL schedule and priorities on Amia so well, probably better than I do. Well enough for a lovely ad hominem, to be sure! My comment about spending DCs for leveling was not part of my argument for the DM rebuilds, btw.
In any case, I don't think free rebuilds are fair. I think they are practical, they serve a purpose as a tool in bringing something good to many people.
Tell me, why should a DM have less options to choose from what he spends his DCs on than a player? Well, in fact, you don't need to tell me. I know your answer, and the disagreement is fundamental. But I don't think a DM should be forced to spend his DCs on a rebuild, if he wants a rebuild, just because he's a DM. We don't ask that of the players, either.
A player does not have the obligation to put aside his freetime to entertain others. A player can gain DCs while they do a self-rebuild, a DM cannot. A DM doing a self-rebuild is a DM away from doing nice stuff for the players, and that's what matters in the end. But I am utilitarian to the core in many things, so I haven't seen much reason to change this established practice. Why go for the greater evil if you can settle for the lesser?
Quote:
I would have had 150+ DCs available to me right now, if I would have gotten free rebuilds. Instead I have 14.
I think of people like Eoweniel as well, who was completely lost when it came to making her characters, and continously screwed up while leveling, and had to re-build over and over because of that. All of her DCs were burnt on rebuilding, just to compensate for not being as nerdy about builds as the majority of us are these days.
I'm just not liking it.
Well, I am not liking it, either. I have never been happy with the rebuild prices, as I said above. But the prices used to be very high. I've paid quite a few times for a rebuild when I was a player, and that was back then when it was 1 DC per level + the extras. Even paid some extra for messing up a rebuild.
But alas, those were the prices back then. Situations change. The prices have been revised a few times before, and I personally want them revised again to much lower levels, to be more fair for the players.
Dev Disco wrote:
Letting the machine do the rewarding is quite good. We probably need to take a look at the calculation, though.
Well, darling, you got my numbers all laid out on the other forum, just waiting for some test runs.
Again, Dm's getting rewarded? Good. Good PC'ers getting rewarded at a tiny fraction of the rate a Dm is rewarded? Bad.
Hence the acknowledged need for review of details, and the discussion in the DM forums that Nekh made passing mention of, above.
_________________
On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Again, Dm's getting rewarded? Good. Good PC'ers getting rewarded at a tiny fraction of the rate a Dm is rewarded? Bad.
This is an acknowledged problem, and one of the two major problems I see with the DCs. It's something we've been working on for ages, with more or less satisfactory results, as you know, too.
Though, it'd be exaggerating to say good RPers don't get DCs, full stop. They do. Otherwise there wouldn't be about 100 individual players with over 100 DCs collected, and a great number of people with DC purses nearing that amount. Many of them having more DCs than the average DM, too.
It's just that there's still those, who'd deserve DCs but can't get them because they're missed by DMs.
We are aware, and always figuring out new ways to help the situation. But the solutions are not simple. It's quite arrogant to claim they'd be. (not saying you claimed there's easy answers, Halen, I am just speaking in general despite quoting you).
Tell me, why should a DM have less options to choose from what he spends his DCs on than a player? Well, in fact, you don't need to tell me. I know your answer, and the disagreement is fundamental. But I don't think a DM should be forced to spend his DCs on a rebuild, if he wants a rebuild, just because he's a DM. We don't ask that of the players, either.
Wtf have you been smoking? Seriously?
Players have to spend their fucking DCs on rebuilds. DMs don't.
Did I just become mentally retarded, or is there something in that quote of yours which doesn't quite add up?
Nekhy wrote:
A player does not have the obligation to put aside his freetime to entertain others. A player can gain DCs while they do a self-rebuild, a DM cannot. A DM doing a self-rebuild is a DM away from doing nice stuff for the players, and that's what matters in the end. But I am utilitarian to the core in many things, so I haven't seen much reason to change this established practice. Why go for the greater evil if you can settle for the lesser?
Why would you need to make a self-rebuild? Isn't that a bit daft?
A DM with 4 hours of DM'ing per day, gets 7 DC's per week, 28 DCs per month, 336 DCs per year.
That's -more- than enough to pay for a re-build with DCs. Like... the normal players do, you know.
Except, a normal player can usually hope to get 1 DC per month, rather than 28.
If only players could earn DCs at the same rate as DMs seemingly do (or even a quarter of it), there won't be a need to reduce current cost of rebuilds!
God knows how much I've regretted all the DCs I burned for XP and rebuilds... I'll just say I'm scarred for life. Now I hide whatever DCs, I very rarely get, deep in a very violating and personal place in me.
Sure DMing is hard work, but that's why you guys get more DCs right? The more time you guys put in Dming, the better it is for everyone, the more DCs you get, the more you could afford the DC goodies - rebuilds included.
Anyways, those are my thoughts on the issue. But honestly, I really don't give a *bleep* what DMs get. You guys shouldn't have told us, the players, the perks DM gets (rolled a 1 in wisdom check?) like ever. What we don't know don't hurt/bother us.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
Personally, I like a transparent system. It's nice to know what perks they get etc., that way if people view it as unfair it can be discussed and changed (which is what half of this topic has been on I believe).
_________________ 2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
You guys shouldn't have told us, the players, the perks DM gets (rolled a 1 in wisdom check?) like ever. What we don't know don't hurt/bother us.
Word.
Trust in the ignorance of the masses.
Told you so pages ago! Most new DMs didn't know this was happening, so we were pretty sure they aren't innit for the money. Can't say it was a secret, but nobody mentioned it.
Players have to spend their (censored) DCs on rebuilds. DMs don't.
Did I just become mentally retarded, or is there something in that quote of yours which doesn't quite add up?
Most players opt for selfers, as would most DMs if they had to pay for it. And I know damn well why, it's far too expensive as it is now.
But when a DM opts for a selfer, he's not DMing.
It's irrelevant whether you have the DCs to pay for something or not. What matters is whether you're willing to pay it or not.
Anyway, my argument isn't that DMs are better and should get free rebuilds. It's that DMs are needed elsewhere and that's why these rebuilds were originally put in as part of the "DM deal". It's that the players should have to pay much less (or get them for free, or some other nice solution).
You've probably lost some capability to read, though, as you're skipping parts of my posts. I've never said it's fair, so you can stop fighting that strawman you put up yourself. It's unfair for individuals, but it's practical and serves a purpose. Should a better solution be agreed by the staff, great! That's the beauty of pragmatic approach. The solution that works the best can be chosen over ideological stubbornness.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
I think it's probably best to let it run its course, that way everything tat needs to be discussed will be, and all tensions can be let out of everyone's systems instead of building up.
Unless people start flaming each other, of course, then it would need a lock.
_________________ 2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
Most players opt for selfers, as would most DMs if they had to pay for it. And I know damn well why, it's far too expensive as it is now.
Most players opt for selfers, not because it's too expensive, but because they generally don't get any DCs at all.
Nekhy wrote:
But when a DM opts for a selfer, he's not DMing.
Again, with 300+ possible DC's per year, from just DM'ing, a DM wouldn't even have to concern himself/herself with self-rebuilding. You basically crap out DCs, compared to -any- player out there, in the history of Amia.
I can understand the idea behind including the free rebuilds a long time ago, but that must have been an absolute brain fart by whoever did it, since they didn't manage to see how the vast amount of DCs DMs would be getting would give them as many DC-payed rebuilds they could ever want.
Not to mention, back then, DMs could give DCs to other DM's PC's. As you are well aware.
So back then, you -could- get DCs when self-rebuilding.
Again. Brain fart.
Nekhy wrote:
It's irrelevant whether you have the DCs to pay for something or not. What matters is whether you're willing to pay it or not.
How is that irrelevant?
I'm willing to pay for a jet plane, but I don't have the millions of dollars needed to buy one. Hence, I can't.
I really don't see any logic in that statement at all, nor relevance.
Nekhy wrote:
You've probably lost some capability to read, though, as you're skipping parts of my posts. I've never said it's fair, so you can stop fighting that strawman you put up yourself. It's unfair for individuals, but it's practical and serves a purpose. Should a better solution be agreed by the staff, great! That's the beauty of pragmatic approach. The solution that works the best can be chosen over ideological stubbornness.
I'm not skipping anything.
If I'm repeating myself, it's likely due to my perception of what I'm saying not sinking in enough.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
Mr Mago wrote:
Nekhy wrote:
It's irrelevant whether you have the DCs to pay for something or not. What matters is whether you're willing to pay it or not.
How is that irrelevant?
I'm willing to pay for a jet plane, but I don't have the millions of dollars needed to buy one. Hence, I can't.
I really don't see any logic in that statement at all, nor relevance.
I believe the point there is something like this:
There is a chocolate bar for $50. Even if I had $1 000 000, I would not be willing to buy that chocolate bar if I could get it cheaper elsewhere for some effort.
The DMs may have the DCs for the rebuild, but that doesn't mean that they're willing to pay the price.
_________________ 2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
That's just so fucking bizarre and unreal that I'm willing to puke all over the DM staff if that's the general consensus.
Seriously.
So basically... the cost to re-build with DCs is too high for the DMs preferences, so they get free rebuilds, but it's expected for all the players to pay up?
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
Here's a question, Mago - a salesman walks to your door offering the $50 chocolate bar, that you know you buy at the store for $2 if you go walking there. Would you buy it?
If you had double your money, would you buy it?
As a general rule, I think people know roughly what's 'fair' and will not be willing to sacrifice above that, even if the alternative will cost them effort.
I know if the chocolate bar were $50, I'd not buy it, regardless how much money I had (to a realistic, non economy-crushing degree). Why? Because it's over priced - it's not fair.
That's why I strongly support the cost for rebuild decreasing - if it would be better served by creating a new topic in things to change just for that, I'd be happy to.
_________________ 2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
It might be that rebuilding with DCs is overpriced. But that's not the fucked up part.
The fucked up part is that players are still expected to pay for it, while the DMs don't. Whilst the majority of players have ten times less DCs than the majority of DMs.
That's why I strongly support the cost for rebuild decreasing - if it would be better served by creating a new topic in things to change just for that, I'd be happy to.
We're discussing it in our private forum already.
Mago, I guess Nekh's point was this (whether I subscribe to it or not): players don't pay for rebuilds, because they're expensive. DMs don't pay for rebuilds, because they're expensive. Players self-rebuild to get their levels back. DM grind time is away from DM Event time, and therefore it's pragmatic to skip the grind time altogether. In the end, though, it's just a perk. Whether it's fair or not is subjective, but it's what was decided by those with the power to make such decisions, sometime in the past.
The conclusion hides in the premiss: rebuilds are expensive. I think the solution to level the playing field would be to make rebuilds cost for everyone, but cost much less than they do, now. Make DC rebuilding actually a viable alternative to self-rebuilds.
And that's what we're discussing now on the DM forums, to see if we agree about the problem and a solution.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
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Last edited by IronAngel on Fri, Oct 09 2009, 13:01 PM, edited 1 time in total.
There is a chocolate bar for $50. Even if I had $1 000 000, I would not be willing to buy that chocolate bar if I could get it cheaper elsewhere for some effort.
That's neither here nor there mate.
Even the McDonald's CEO buys his own burgers in McDonald's. Maybe if you ever own/run a business you will understand the subtleties.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
ticket wrote:
Yurell wrote:
There is a chocolate bar for $50. Even if I had $1 000 000, I would not be willing to buy that chocolate bar if I could get it cheaper elsewhere for some effort.
That's neither here nor there mate.
Even the McDonald's CEO buys his own burgers in McDonald's. Maybe if you ever own/run a business you will understand the subtleties.
I'm failing to grasp your analogy. My point is that if see something as ridiculously overpriced I will not buy it no matter how much money I have.
The decision of the Maccas CEO isn't based on that concept - instead, brand loyalty, and the burgers may be overpriced but not so much that you'd rather go slaughter your own cattle.
Can you explain how your analogy pertains?
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Joined: 12 Oct 2005 Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
I don't think it's fair to compare DM's to sales people, they are more like police. In which I bring up the example that police get to enforce the law, drive cool cars, wear awesome uniform, club people, shock people, carry guns, search buisness places and such. But outside of being a police officer, do they get to do these things, do they get the fringe benefits associated.
Nope.
Even more the fact that DM's are like police officers is that like police officers, DM's don't take the career for the pay, because there are better paying jobs, or rather, better less stress postions.
In saying this, DM's get more DC's then the average players, and they don't spend these DC's on rebuilds. Answer to this could be to give them free rebuilds, though it's wholey unfair. The other answer is to remove getting DC's for Dming entirely, in which case they would have to do the job for what was originally thought when accepting the postion, nothing.
I just can't get it through my head why someone is being rewarded for something they agreed to do with no reward originally. I mean, if you need the reward, why are you here? Just confuses me on many levels.
_________________ I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
Most players opt for selfers, not because it's too expensive, but because they generally don't get any DCs at all.
Do you have access to the DC database, and have you looked at the numbers? I wouldn't dare to make such general statements without having seen statistics. Or having done rebuilds for players, hearing why they wanna do it the way they wanna do it.
Quote:
Again, with 300+ possible DC's per year, from just DM'ing, a DM wouldn't even have to concern himself/herself with self-rebuilding. You basically crap out DCs, compared to -any- player out there, in the history of Amia.
I can understand the idea behind including the free rebuilds a long time ago, but that must have been an absolute brain fart by whoever did it, since they didn't manage to see how the vast amount of DCs DMs would be getting would give them as many DC-payed rebuilds they could ever want.
Not to mention, back then, DMs could give DCs to other DM's PC's. As you are well aware.
So back then, you -could- get DCs when self-rebuilding.
Again. Brain fart.
Well, you're assuming that DMs tend to get the maximum amount of DCs. They don't.
This perk was instated after DMs stopped receiving DCs from each other. It was ... sometime in 2006? A little after I was a DM. Again, you might think it's a brain fart, but it has its reasonings and it's not as messed up as you make it sound like. It works decently in its intended form. Which is not based on fairness, as I've said many times. Practicality, to keep DMs DMing most of the time instead of spending more time playerside.
Quote:
How is that irrelevant?
I'm willing to pay for a jet plane, but I don't have the millions of dollars needed to buy one. Hence, I can't.
I really don't see any logic in that statement at all, nor relevance.
Well, as I said, a lot of players, too, have the DCs for rebuilds, but they don't always want to pay it. So they do selfers. You can think it's sick and bizarre and wrong, but alas. It's how humans are.
Quote:
I'm not skipping anything.
If I'm repeating myself, it's likely due to my perception of what I'm saying not sinking in enough.
Nah, I understand your point. I am just explaining why things have been done on Amia the way they've been done. Your point "sinking in" has little to do with that, you can shout and yell all you like but it's not gonna "sink in" any more if I have nothing to argue you about. I do agree about the unfairness of the rebuilds, but I also know why it's been the way it is. And that's what I am trying to communicate across. Why it's been done this way. There are other ways of doing things, and we regularly discuss them with the team. If we agree on something, we change things.
But this may or may not be my personal preference (or that of other DMs), that's not something I've been commenting here, so your ad hominems and flames are really quite tiring.
Even if you lower the DC cost to 10 DCs for a complete rebuild, Joe Schmoe the PC will still have to struggle to get those 10 DCs when he gets 1 DC every one or two months.
DM Bobby, however, with his 20+ DCs per month, from being on the DM client, will have little difficulties paying for the rebuild.
Even if a complete rebuild would cost 50 DCs.
As such, I see the problem as two-folded.
1. That the gap between the amount of DCs DMs are automatically given for their time in the DM client and the amount which a normal PC gets for playing on the server.
2. The fact that DMs get free rebuilds, whilst players are expected to pay for them.
I just can't get it through my head why someone is being rewarded for something they agreed to do with no reward originally. I mean, if you need the reward, why are you here? Just confuses me on many levels.
Why do players get DCs? Did they not agree to RP for nothing but RP's sake? Why do they get cool quest rewards? Don't they partake in quests because it's what their character would do? Why do doctors and policemen get paid beyond what's absolutely necessary to support them? Isn't it everybody's moral obligation to do the right thing, help the helpless and enforce justice, regardless of the rewards involved?
A reward is just that: a thanks for a job well done. It's not part of our contract, and has nothing to do with how we DM. It's not something we need. This whole hobby is something extra beyond our material and psychological needs.
_________________
On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
No, I don't have access to the playerbase. I'm speaking out of reference to the hundreds of players I've met, spoken to and played with on Amia for the last 4½ years.
That probably counts for something, even if it's not your statistical database.
The mere fact that you need something to motivate DMs to be on the DM client just indicates that there's something much bigger at fault with how the DM staff works on Amia.
Why do people sign up for the job?
Do they sign up, and then realize they don't want to do it? So that they have to be bribed to keep doing it?
Why are they still DMs, if that's what's keeping them there?
A DM should be a DM because they want to be a DM. Not because of the perks.
As has already been said, soon-to-be DMs weren't informed of the perks they would receive before they were enlisted as DMs. They still signed up for the job though. It does start to seem as if once you've become a DM, and you've gotten used to those perks, you're getting quite comfortable with them and therefore wouldn't want to see them gone.
Now... I know, from reading this topic, and speaking to DMs in general, that there's likely very few DMs who would stop DM'ing if the perks were removed. Since... the majority of Amia's DMs actually do it for the love of the server and the love of DMing.
But doesn't that make the perks (in particular the free rebuilds, everything considered) a bit redudant, if so?
And I'll have to side with Selvec in regards of the "Why" this system was implemented. It's not the "why" I'm trying to address, nor is the "why" important.
I'm trying to put focus on how the current system isn't very sensible, that it needs to be reviewed, and how it can be that some DMs (such as yourself, Nekhy) are still seemingly defending it.
What's been done in the past, is in the past. Why they did it, doesn't matter.
What -you- intend to do about it, and for what reason, is what matters.
Even if you lower the DC cost to 10 DCs for a complete rebuild, Joe Schmoe the PC will still have to struggle to get those 10 DCs when he gets 1 DC every one or two months.
True. There's some problems with this. The average Joe Schmoe who actively contributes to Amia via RP gets DCs, though. Enough for the occasional rebuild. At least if we are to believe Nekh's statistics. Some players get more DCs than DMs (do consider that much of our work also happens out of the client - for every 4 client hours, I do 12 out-of-client hours). It may take time to get noticed, it may be bad luck that you're in a timezone DMs don't often cover, but that's unavoidable as long as we have a DC system in the first place. We've all been there at some point when we were new.
_________________
On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
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The DC system does have its flaws, but in past discussions regarding the DC system, I believe the final conclusion was that it's better to have the DC system in place, than not to have a DC system at all. Even if that means that everyone who should be acknowledged and awarded for their efforts, won't be.
I also don't see a problem with DMs getting DCs for their time on the DM client.
But... again, as has been said over and over already, it's the gap between the amount an average DM get and and average player, combined with the extra of free rebuilds, that comes off as bitter.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
Mr Mago wrote:
But doesn't that make the perks (in particular the free rebuilds, everything considered) a bit redudant, if so?
I'm still inclined to disagree - it's so that they are on the DM client for the 50 hours they would otherwise need for grinding levels, making sure everyone has fun instead of just themselves and their party.
If the DC cost was rather low, I'd support placing it on DMs, but it would have to be low at a bargain price - and doing that would mean more people want rebuilds. The cost is there as a deterrent against rebuilds which take away from DM time AFAIK.
_________________ 2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
... So, after talking with Mags, I created a DM time tracker and the system of x hours / 4, with a maximum of 8 DC. That's somewhere early 2006.
This wasn't really satisfying because some DMs still made 30+ player hours and maybe 4 or 5 dm hours. So, the system got tweaked and now your DM hours need to be at least 25% of your player hours to get anything. ...
Disco, I was around for that system and I think it worked lovely. However, also during that time frame, I think we had a lot more energetic DMs on the servers most of the time so a lot more DCs were flying around than there were now. I'll be perfectly honest about the situation; I don't really mind that DMs get paid what they do. My problem comes from the balance between how many DCs DMs get on average, to how many DCs I get on average.
Obviously I'm not referring to lately, as I've been unable to put in player hours due to general life busyness / getting prepared to move, but even when I was pretty much on for most of the day, there just wasn't a lot of action at any time I was on.
I think it would be a good idea to start considering a time-based, automated system for players. Such a system would be more rewarding for the players and take a little edge off of DMs, I think, if it were designed correctly. Obviously you have some potential abuse from idlers, and I'm not sure how much NWN can do to curb them, but I think you could set up punishment blocks for those who get caught, if you can't just outright boot them from the server when they go idle.
I don't think it should be as generous as 1 DC / 4 Hours, but maybe 1 DC / 8-12 Hours or more would be acceptable.
But doesn't that make the perks (in particular the free rebuilds, everything considered) a bit redudant, if so?
I'm still inclined to disagree - it's so that they are on the DM client for the 50 hours they would otherwise need for grinding levels, making sure everyone has fun instead of just themselves and their party. If the DC cost was rather low, I'd support placing it on DMs, but it would have to be low at a bargain price - and doing that would mean more people want rebuilds. The cost is there as a deterrent against rebuilds which take away from DM time AFAIK.
What's this idea of DMs having to grind levels?
Most DMs already have epic characters (there are exception) when they're given the DM job. It's... kind of inevitable, because you can't become a DM without having played a significant amount of time on the server already.
Between playing their old PCs, and staying on the DM client + the vast amount of DCs DMs do get, compared to players, I don't see why any DM would have to replace their DM hours with grinding hours.
It takes 95 DCs to level up a completely new character, from level 2 to level 30, without killing a single monster or completing a single NPC.
From Maias 4 months of DM'ing so far, he's almost earned that amount of DCs already.
If you remove DCs altogether for the time DMs spend on the DM client, then sure... it would probably mean that DMs would have to spend time grinding for xp a lot more than they currently need to.
But I'm definetly not supporting that.
Free rebuilds, however, certainly don't make much sense in that regard however.
I'm "defending" it, because it's sensible from a utilitarian point of view. It doesn't appeal to my ideological side a whole lot, but I can see the overall benefits it brings. Sure, I can see the faults, too, I am not stupid.
It hasn't been really discussed before among the staff, either. I've thought about it many times myself, but no better alternative has been agreed by the staff so far, so as I said, I am not gonna shoot in my own leg and tell DMs to get off the client to grind if they wanna rebuild but don't wanna pay. Picking the lesser evil out of two is far more sensible unless the circumstances change again to favour a new and different approach.
... So, after talking with Mags, I created a DM time tracker and the system of x hours / 4, with a maximum of 8 DC. That's somewhere early 2006.
This wasn't really satisfying because some DMs still made 30+ player hours and maybe 4 or 5 dm hours. So, the system got tweaked and now your DM hours need to be at least 25% of your player hours to get anything. ...
Disco, I was around for that system and I think it worked lovely. However, also during that time frame, I think we had a lot more energetic DMs on the servers most of the time so a lot more DCs were flying around than there were now. I'll be perfectly honest about the situation; I don't really mind that DMs get paid what they do. My problem comes from the balance between how many DCs DMs get on average, to how many DCs I get on average.
Obviously I'm not referring to lately, as I've been unable to put in player hours due to general life busyness / getting prepared to move, but even when I was pretty much on for most of the day, there just wasn't a lot of action at any time I was on.
I think it would be a good idea to start considering a time-based, automated system for players. Such a system would be more rewarding for the players and take a little edge off of DMs, I think, if it were designed correctly. Obviously you have some potential abuse from idlers, and I'm not sure how much NWN can do to curb them, but I think you could set up punishment blocks for those who get caught, if you can't just outright boot them from the server when they go idle.
I don't think it should be as generous as 1 DC / 4 Hours, but maybe 1 DC / 8-12 Hours or more would be acceptable.
Prisoners of the Mist has an xp-awarding system based on how much you type in the normal talk chat.
It's a very nifty system actually. It filters out spam and pretty much only awards normal IC dialogue.
That's one way to check if a PC is actually interacting with the world, or simply standing around idling.
I wouldn't put it at 1 DC / 8-12 hours either. That seems to be a bit much. Perhaps more like... 1 DC / 30-40 hours.
And could we have this take effect retroactively if so?
I'm "defending" it, because it's sensible from a utilitarian point of view. It doesn't appeal to my ideological side a whole lot, but I can see the overall benefits it brings. Sure, I can see the faults, too, I am not stupid.
It hasn't been really discussed before among the staff, either. I've thought about it many times myself, but no better alternative has been agreed by the staff so far, so as I said, I am not gonna shoot in my own leg and tell DMs to get off the client to grind if they wanna rebuild but don't wanna pay. Picking the lesser evil out of two is far more sensible unless the circumstances change again to favour a new and different approach.
What active DM, who spends at least 20 hours in the DM client per week, and gets the adequate amount of DCs (aka, 5 DCs for 20 hours) that comes with it, would honestly bitch at having to spend, at the most, 33 DCs on a rebuild?
Well I am glad Amia has a frontpage now. First thread that pops to new players are 8 pages of arguing between DMs and players about a moot topic. That speaks for itself about the server.
What active DM, who spends at least 20 hours in the DM client per week, and gets the adequate amount of DCs (aka, 5 DCs for 20 hours) that comes with it, would honestly bitch at having to spend, at the most, 33 DCs on a rebuild?
Sounds as if your DMs are spoiled, Nekhy.
People change their opinions all the time. That's what it comes down to. The customs change when the people think "Oh, well, let's try something different now". That's how this staff works, and it has nothing to do with being spoiled. But I've long since made the conscious decision (after trial and error) I am not gonna force the DMs to change their opinion on something with my 1337 Head DM powahs, but we'll make decisions as a team at the pace we feel suitable. It is often quite random, because many things aren't hot topics on the DM forums for reason or another, and at other times they come up again.
... So, after talking with Mags, I created a DM time tracker and the system of x hours / 4, with a maximum of 8 DC. That's somewhere early 2006.
This wasn't really satisfying because some DMs still made 30+ player hours and maybe 4 or 5 dm hours. So, the system got tweaked and now your DM hours need to be at least 25% of your player hours to get anything. ...
Disco, I was around for that system and I think it worked lovely. However, also during that time frame, I think we had a lot more energetic DMs on the servers most of the time so a lot more DCs were flying around than there were now. I'll be perfectly honest about the situation; I don't really mind that DMs get paid what they do. My problem comes from the balance between how many DCs DMs get on average, to how many DCs I get on average.
O, don't get me wrong. I don't say the current system is perfect, in fact I don't attach any good/bad value to it. I just wanted to give an insight in how it evolved, in the hope that it'd pacify this thread a bit.
I am even more utilitarian than Nekhy, I just want a system that gets DMs on the server, and I don't mind to pay DCs if that's what it takes. More DM time will, in my view, lead to more events, a higher DC output, and preferably more/happier players.
_________________ Say 'no' to JSBF!
Last edited by Dev Disco on Fri, Oct 09 2009, 13:53 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Why the DMs acutally take beatings from players are beyond me...
Aim for transparency and accountability. That's all there really is to it.
So, bring on the floggings. That's what the Head DM is here for, after all. I do wish that individual DMs got less of it. You who love to whip DMs in the public like in this topic, you're just hurting yourselves in the end...
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