AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Easiest way to settle the gap is to shake more DC's at the playerbase, I think.

corypx wrote:

maybe could we get a lay out of what RP is worth DCs then because I just find it odd why some people who I thought were big time RPers have no DCs.

I must agree with you - I do fin it very strange that many people I know to be strong RPers on at times well-covered by DMs are getting very few DCs.

WonWon wrote:

@Mago; It's likely because alot of us are getting to that stress-point where we're simply wondering why the hell we go out of our way for players, only to be put on the stand or accused as a whole, for what half the time is a problem that exists only between the accuser's ears, and the other half of the time is something they asked us to do.

It tends to rattle nerves, alot, especially when you've been dealing with it for years as some of us have.

I've said it before... and I'll say it again.

What the DM Staff on Amia lacks, is BALLS. You're so scared of conflict, and so intimidated by the mere risk that your feelings might get butthurt in trying to do something good, that turns bad, that you simply put yourself in a place where your authority is diminished and ignored. Hence the arrogant bratty response the playerbase often tends to give (in particular trouble makers, who've already proven to be assholes and wouldn't mind punching you in the face a bit more as long as you'll gladly take it).

Do you honestly think that Amian DMs are unique in that they have to deal with the shit they deal with? You honestly don't think that any other major server out there, has the same shit, being thrown at them from the playerbase? You honestly don't believe that even the smallest servers, has their share of troublemakers and impolite selfish bastards that tend to piss on the DMs efforts?

I've been a DM on various servers for about 2 years of my complete NWN playing time.

I've dealt with all the shit the DMs on Amia has become soooo extremely victimized by.

But I never tolerated any of that.

The DM Staff on Amia tends to be like the bloody PW organizational implement of Cordor (prior to it's state of being non-tolerant).

You, as DMs, create the premises and circumstances under which you work.

You, as DMs, have throughout the years influenced the attitude displayed by the playerbase.

You, as DMs, have made the choices which have lead you to the point where you're standing today.

If you want to, I can give you a list of conflicts, OOC disputes and DM events (that I know of) in which the DMs acted like insecure pussies and get a pile of shit at the end of it, because of that.

But I doubt that's nessecary, since I'm quite sure, from looking at Amia's DM staff's self-regulating body, that you're already more than aware of these instances.

Yurell wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Yurell wrote:

When you pay, you get someone else to rebuild for you. When they do it, they do it themselves.
Secondly, would you rather they spend 50 hours on the DM client or 50 hours grinding for XP? I know which I'd prefer.

You need to start reading, Yurell.

Was taht to the first part or the second?
To the first, I was in the process of apologising so fair enough (if it was stated earlier), to the second ... then I've no idea what you're talking about.

Try reading the post rather than going (censored) analytical self-concerned anal on me.

Again: read what? If you've a problem state what it is rather than making snide attacks.

You nitpicked a completely irrelevant aspect of the post and completely ignored the -actual- content, message and intention of what I was conveying.

So, try reading it again, and respond to the BIG chunk of text of the post that actually had significance.

If it makes you feel better (I doubt it will), we don't earn "partial DCs". Any hours that are not a multiple of four are "Free hours". There's no roll over. I think every DM's had a lot of hours that will never be accounted for by the system. 11 hours, for example, is as good at 8, as far as the system's concerned. And anything over 24 hours is 'free' as well.

Quote:

Easiest way to settle the gap is to shake more DC's at the playerbase, I think.

Make me want to DC you then. I assure you it is as frustrating, or possibly more, to go around and only find "The Usual Suspects" (who we have already determined we cannot DC, otherwise we're biased to them.) and everyone else mindlessly grinding, as it is for you to not get the DCs in the first place.

giving 5 DCs at a time instead of one isn't going to fix this problem, it will only widen the gap between the haves and the have nots. It is not a perfect system but no one has ever given a better idea.

Quote:

maybe could we get a lay out of what RP is worth DCs then because I just find it odd why some people who I thought were big time RPers have no DCs.

No. DM discretion. RP your character. I'm not going to tell you how to do it, nor should you be demanding my standards so you can follow them to a T and go "DC me now!"

Mr Mago wrote:

I've said it before... and I'll say it again.

What the DM Staff on Amia lacks, is BALLS. You're so scared of conflict, and so intimidated by the mere risk that your feelings might get butthurt in trying to do something good, that turns bad, that you simply put yourself in a place where your authority is diminished and ignored.

I disagree. I think it's the fact they are trying to make the game fun for everyone, and the message they keep getting back strongly is "we are not having fun when you are ding your best to help us". Personally, I'm stoked whenever a DM does something - from random possession of a drow barkeeper, to cows falling from the sky to an army of troglodytes being organised and assaulting my party.
But for some reason the nay-sayers scream louder than the supporters, and it's not a lack of courage that leads to the problems IMO.

Note: I did read your entire post, Mago, I am only quoting this part because it is most pertinent. I hope this message is enough to placate your accusations.

This has been suggested before by maglorine iirc.
The player wand flags other players for good RP.
Once it hits a counter of say 5-10 flags, it gets reviewed, to prevent circle jerking, and a DC is awarded.

Btw... I don't question the DM's ability to "earn" that 1 DC they make for every 4 hours of DM'ing.

I actually have a lot of faith in the DM team (or some of it, at least), even if we've been on bad terms more than once in the past.

So that part doesn't concern me.

Mr Mago wrote:

Yurell wrote:

(Snip)

Again: read what? If you've a problem state what it is rather than making snide attacks.

You nitpicked a completely irrelevant aspect of the post and completely ignored the -actual- content, message and intention of what I was conveying.

So, try reading it again, and respond to the BIG chunk of text of the post that actually had significance.

I was counter-arguing, not rebutting.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

This has been suggested before by maglorine iirc.
The player wand flags other players for good RP.
Once it hits a counter of say 5-10 flags, it gets reviewed, to prevent circle jerking, and a DC is awarded.

Easily abused, I assure you.

Sorry I'm human, Mago, and sorry most of the DMs are.

I also apologize that we cannot aspire to be unfallable beings such as yourself.

To get aside from the snark; I'm not saying no one else has to deal with it, nor anything of the sort. I've been DMing PnP for years, over various groups, for as long as I can be arsed to remember. Used to it.

However, it does not change the fact that, as human as we are, we do sometimes suffer such things as Annoyance, Irritation, Bother, or even Anger in response to other people. Different people handle it in differing ways, as well.

That said, it depends what side of the fence you're on.

Simple fact - As much as insults and accusations are easy to deal with and put up with, when you hear them alot they do tend to annoy.

Yurell wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

I've said it before... and I'll say it again.

What the DM Staff on Amia lacks, is BALLS. You're so scared of conflict, and so intimidated by the mere risk that your feelings might get butthurt in trying to do something good, that turns bad, that you simply put yourself in a place where your authority is diminished and ignored.

I disagree. I think it's the fact they are trying to make the game fun for everyone, and the message they keep getting back strongly is "we are not having fun when you are ding your best to help us". Personally, I'm stoked whenever a DM does something - from random possession of a drow barkeeper, to cows falling from the sky to an army of troglodytes being organised and assaulting my party.
But for some reason the nay-sayers scream louder than the supporters, and it's not a lack of courage that leads to the problems IMO.

Note: I did read your entire post, Mago, I am only quoting this part because it is most pertinent. I hope this message is enough to placate your accusations.

I'm afraid you're probably not aware of what I'm talking about, Yurell, since it's something that dates back long before you joined Amia, and something I've been discussing with a couple of DMs for... years, really.

I won't go into specifics, to explain what I'm actually refering to.

I hope the DMs, which the post was intended for, figure out what I'm talking about.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

And just to make it clear, I'm not trying to insult any DM or claim that the DM's are being unfair

Too late. You did that with your first post.

Quote:

To be quite honest, from my point of view this is exactly like the shadowflame debacle with the shop that a few members stubbornly defended for no other reason then they didn't want to lose the perks.

btw, the shadowflame people agreed to move the shop out in the open. You seem to have forgotten that bit.

No, I didn't say the DM's where being unfair, I said the system for rewarding is unfair....and this was my first post in this thread...*cough*

Quote:

I'm trying to find a job. Like most of the world xD.
It's also Spring here so my willingness to play games at the moment isn't exactly massive. Enjoying the sun before the nightmare heat of summer drops on me.

I also agree with the War thing. It's been a while since Amia had a nice big clear RP event that the entire server can take part in regardless of race or religion. Last one was the horde. These intrigue events are nice and all, but people are becoming much to comfortable in their spots. When that happens, I say it's time for another horde like event. Shake things up a bit.

Bring back Wyrmhold! xD

As for the shadowflame thing, well that was just an example, and I didn't say it didn't go through or get resolved, just that some of them at the time where defending it stubbornly for no other reason then the perks.

@Yos: I understand that YOU don't do it for the perks. I never said the DM's did it for the perks completely, and if I did I apologise. I do think however that it helps sustain some DM's when they may have left, not you in particular however. I do feel like I'm hitting a brick wall similar to what I have hit when people defend thing's for perks however, as I'm getting people telling me "why" it's like this, but the why's are quite honestly not very good, and make very little sense. They don't solve the issue or anything.

@Ron: Right, sorry. I am getting a bit worked up, but as I stated above, it's more because I'm being told over and over why, but the why's are silly.

I agree with Mago. Having also DMed on a smaller server, however one with people I did not know and did not completely get along with, I can tell you that it's the same even on small servers. Even worse because people can concentrate the bitching and such on you, even when you solved it they bitch. You can never make anyone happy. But that's what you signed up for, that's what your experiencing, and nobody ever said that DMing was going to be easy. Just as nobody said you had to do it, or even that you have to continue doing it.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

maybe could we get a lay out of what RP is worth DCs then because I just find it odd why some people who I thought were big time RPers have no DCs.

No. DM discretion. RP your character. I'm not going to tell you how to do it, nor should you be demanding my standards so you can follow them to a T and go "DC me now!"

the point was, the staff have blanket value of 4hours of a DMs time is worth 1DC and they could spend it following around grinds for about a hour then go bugger off for the other 3 hours reading the forums and chating not doing anything DMish.

Last edited by Mr Mago on Fri, Oct 09 2009, 5:04 AM, edited 1 time in total.

WonWon wrote:

Sorry I'm human, Mago, and sorry most of the DMs are.

I also apologize that we cannot aspire to be unfallable beings such as yourself.

To get aside from the snark; I'm not saying no one else has to deal with it, nor anything of the sort. I've been DMing PnP for years, over various groups, for as long as I can be arsed to remember. Used to it.

However, it does not change the fact that, as human as we are, we do sometimes suffer such things as Annoyance, Irritation, Bother, or even Anger in response to other people. Different people handle it in differing ways, as well.

That said, it depends what side of the fence you're on.

Simple fact - As much as insults and accusations are easy to deal with and put up with, when you hear them alot they do tend to annoy.

I think that relates to the problem.

You're human, but you've always been far too humane.

Looking back, I'm rather surprised that I haven't gotten bitch-slapped for my attitude and actions more than I already have, on Amia. On most other servers, some of the stuff I've done would have probably gotten me a big boot up the backside.

This is hard to put forward, without getting into specific examples. But the OOC conflicts speak for themselves, I think. Specially those I've been in touch with or involved with.

No one is perfect. Everyone is human. Of course.

But that doesn't remove the fact that we make choices. Everyone makes their own choices.

The DM team has chosen to be lenient and overly self-critic at times, to make way for an ideal diplomatic and fair game play enviroment for everyone.

Sometimes, treating the DM duty from the perspective as a Helmite, isn't always the best thing to do.

Sometimes, you'll need a little bit of tyranny to make up for inevitable soon-to-be holes of burnt out DMs.

Quote:

go bugger off for the other 3 hours reading the forums and chating not doing anything DMish.

Then, as said half a dozen times now, I boot them off the server and kick their ass for doing it, and tell them to never ever ever do it again. I didn't even let an Ex DM do toolset work while logged in AFK, despite it being 100% connected to Amia. No, you log out and go do it.

Tormak finds those Dm's and eats them. I've seen it. I can't imagine he's slacked off on that. So I'm not afraid of that happening.

Last edited by Yurell on Fri, Oct 09 2009, 5:05 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Mr Mago wrote:

I'm afraid you're probably not aware of what I'm talking about, Yurell, since it's something that dates back long before you joined Amia, ...

Then I shan't comment on it further. My apologies.

corypx wrote:

the point was, the staff have blanket value of 4hours of a DMs time is worth 1DC and they could spend it following around grinds for about a hour then go bugger off for the other 3 hours reading the forums and chating not doing anything DMish.

Only if they wish to be hung,drawn and quartered. Both Tormak and I have said it numerous times - anyone who does that will be caught and punished appropriately. I have faith in the DM team to police themselves , I just find it disappointing that others do not.

Edit: Double-ninja'd

Halen_Van wrote:

Tormak finds those Dm's and eats them. I've seen it. I can't imagine he's slacked off on that. So I'm not afraid of that happening.

I have not seen it, but I agree simply due to his forum attitude.

My post is a compliment, by the way, Tormak.

Clarifying, just in case it sounded obscure or something. :wink:

TormakSaber wrote:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

This has been suggested before by maglorine iirc.
The player wand flags other players for good RP.
Once it hits a counter of say 5-10 flags, it gets reviewed, to prevent circle jerking, and a DC is awarded.

Easily abused, I assure you.

Explain please. I'm thinking that the final decision to award the DC rests with the staff.

Well, then it doesn't really solve your problem, does it? It still relies on us to be around to give the DC.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

go bugger off for the other 3 hours reading the forums and chating not doing anything DMish.

Then, as said half a dozen times now, I boot them off the server and kick their ass for doing it, and tell them to never ever ever do it again. I didn't even let an Ex DM do toolset work while logged in AFK, despite it being 100% connected to Amia. No, you log out and go do it.

yes we all know your the champion of DMs doing DM stuff to earn DCs but even you have sleep/work/eat/log off and do the river dance...

Giving 5 at one time isn't what I mean.

But being less stringent on what qualifies on what makes DC'able rp might be the answer.

Being in character and responding approriately to the enviroment helps others enjoy the game by having you to interact with. Why not reward that behavior with a DC?

Outsanding rp using wits and lore to solve a problem? Maybe 2 DC's.

Getting a massive group of players together for an event? Well that's less work for a DM to do. Now a DM can just watch the event and reward those good rpers and maybe a little extra for the one that had the initiative to do it?

I was told once by a DM that romance or dramatic rp was not really rewarded. That seemed odd to me since romance and drama are character's emotions that flesh them out to be more than just pixels and statistics, but show an empathy in the character. I don't see why that wouldn't be rewarded.

Every player should likely earn a DC or two a week, I would imagine. Not a month.

You assume that I'm the only one that cares about fair play between the DMs on the team, cory. I'm not, by a long shot.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

@Yos: I understand that YOU don't do it for the perks. I never said the DM's did it for the perks completely, and if I did I apologise. I do think however that it helps sustain some DM's when they may have left, not you in particular however. I do feel like I'm hitting a brick wall similar to what I have hit when people defend thing's for perks however, as I'm getting people telling me "why" it's like this, but the why's are quite honestly not very good, and make very little sense. They don't solve the issue or anything.

I think my "why" was very clear and made perfect sense: until it was brought up in this thread, it never occurred to me that, "Oh God, yeah, I forgot that we get free rebuilds, and with the DC rate we have, sure, we ought to be paying for them!" Therefore, it stands to reason that I'm in the same boat as my co-workers. We have our heads in stories, in developments, in player disputes, and soforth, and I just plain don't pay attention to what I consider to be tiny details.

The fact is, the Head DM is really the person in charge of what our perks and, even before you made that post, I had already stated privately that we should just dump free rebuilds because you are right and it is unfair. But the fact that I do this means absolutely nothing to the playerbase and, in your post, really just proves that no matter what I do the shit will continue to fly my way.

corypx wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

go bugger off for the other 3 hours reading the forums and chating not doing anything DMish.

Then, as said half a dozen times now, I boot them off the server and kick their ass for doing it, and tell them to never ever ever do it again. I didn't even let an Ex DM do toolset work while logged in AFK, despite it being 100% connected to Amia. No, you log out and go do it.

yes we all know your the champion of DMs doing DM stuff to earn DCs but even you have sleep/work/eat/log off and do the river dance...

Would this be presuming that no other DM gives a damn about their peers abusing the system? I highly doubt the majority of the DM team would be very tolerant of that.

Edit: Ninja'd again

I don't see what the big deal is with DCs. I've been playing here for about a year and I've gotten 4 DCs. Two of them were given by two different DMs over the course of a single RP conversation.

That said, I do not care about DCs. I don't need them to enjoy myself. So I can't give my character a tail or batwings...I'm not the type to make such a character anyway. As for needing them for uber items, well...I'm not that interested in them either. I recently read about one request that would cost 25 DCs. That would take me a little over 6 years to earn at my current pace. Sorry, I won't strive for something like that. I'll just work on enjoying what I have given to me.

Maybe I'm a rare breed when I say that good RP is the real reward, not the DCs. *shrug*

The free rebuild does serve a purpose, no matter how unfair it is if you only look at the detail of "free" and not at the big picture. It's not a goal to get a free rebuild, but it's a tool to get more DM hours out from those hours a DM can put into Amia in total. They're not everyday business, restricted as a rarity to be used occasionally, and that's how they get used, too. They're also not used to gain advantage over players when class/feat balance is changed. It's a 100% utilitarian solution, intended to be practical and beneficial to many over fair to an individual, simply to make the time spent on leveling used on DMing instead. This cannot be compared to DMs giving themselves gold or items, because the only acceptable gain is the time saved and spent on entertaining others. Gold and items would tip the scales of balance between pragmatism and fairness too far to the other end to be tolerable. It is also the stripped-down version of what we had before. DM rewards, like all other things on Amia, are a work-in-progress, changing and evolving over time to meet new expectations and situations.

I've wanted the rebuild prices redone for ages to balance that out, though. I think the prices are far too high, personally. Keep in mind, that the rebuild cost is not only there because we fancy you paying for it, but to deter constant rebuilding taking up time from other more important DMing. Such as giving out DCs and running events. If it wasn't a logistical nightmare to keep track of the thousands of characters rebuilding, I'd rather have free rebuilds occasionally (the same extremely rare rate as for the DMs, naturally) for everyone. We already have a lot of paperwork and adding to it seems counterproductive, because it takes time away from entertaining you. No easy solution to this one, I'm afraid.

I also can't help but to think it would be a great disappointment to many, based on what I guess your expectations are right now, in all honesty.

A lot of these things are not based on what's fair alone, but what's pragmatic, as you see. Doesn't mean we don't want them to be as fair as possible, though. But it's not all black and white. There's always a lot of points to consider, would something cause more harm than good? What is the tolerable level of privileges under certain circumstances? There are no easy answers to anything, despite the fact offering easy answers is a popular sport.

Btw, the salary rate Maias presented up there is not average. The average DM tends to get much less. I'm one of those "much less" DMs nowadays, and thanks to my very limited play time, I spend each and every DC I get to level up a character to keep up with others, who have time to play. People have tried to help me level up, too, when I actually have time to play, which is very kind. I still manage to lag behind, of course, as I tend to put what time I have in DMing.

Agreed. A full rebuild, no matter what classes, shouldn't exceed 5-10 DCs in my opinion for it to be tolerable. There's a reason why all my rebuilds are self-rebuilds. I'm just far too greedy with my DCs to be spending the few that I have on something like a build. They all go into DC items.

Yossarin wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

@Yos: I understand that YOU don't do it for the perks. I never said the DM's did it for the perks completely, and if I did I apologise. I do think however that it helps sustain some DM's when they may have left, not you in particular however. I do feel like I'm hitting a brick wall similar to what I have hit when people defend thing's for perks however, as I'm getting people telling me "why" it's like this, but the why's are quite honestly not very good, and make very little sense. They don't solve the issue or anything.

I think my "why" was very clear and made perfect sense: until it was brought up in this thread, it never occurred to me that, "Oh God, yeah, I forgot that we get free rebuilds, and with the DC rate we have, sure, we ought to be paying for them!" Therefore, it stands to reason that I'm in the same boat as my co-workers. We have our heads in stories, in developments, in player disputes, and soforth, and I just plain don't pay attention to what I consider to be tiny details.

The fact is, the Head DM is really the person in charge of what our perks and, even before you made that post, I had already stated privately that we should just dump free rebuilds because you are right and it is unfair. But the fact that I do this means absolutely nothing to the playerbase and, in your post, really just proves that no matter what I do the (censored) will continue to fly my way.

Of course I'll fling shit at you, because I didn't even know it was your opinion, because I can't see the DM forums. However, if I reserve my opinion on the matter because you may have said something in the DM forums that supports my choice, then I'd never say anything at all and never ever even point out the slightest problem. It wasn't a direct shit flinging at you Yos, it was a general shit flinging at the entire basis of the perks given to DM's. I also said it "seemed" like it, which may seem kinda petty and stupid really to stand on that as what stops it from being a direct assessment, but it was what stopped my statement from being a direct assessment. It was generalised, and not direct.

It may seem kinda small and a after thought to you, but I cannot know this. I'm not a mind reader, I can't read the DM thoughts, and I can't make assessments based on you as I don't really know you. As such, I have to make assessments and comments around my opinions based on what I'm seeing and what seems to be the case. Clearly its not with you, but it wasn't a personal attack, which is how you seem to be taking it.

Edit: Oh, and also, I know that your co-workers don't have there heads always in stories Yos. I've had experiences with some DM's where I've asked them to consider running events, but they pretty much shut me down straight away because they aren't the "Story DM's" they only do maintence and small spontanious mini events. Which seem's like complete poo.

Quote:

but they pretty much shut me down straight away because they aren't the "Story DM's" they only do maintence and small spontanious mini events. Which seem's like complete poo.

This upsets me as a DM and whoever told you this has my personal finger waggling at them right now.

When I started DM-ing you kinda asked the Head DM for coins to compensate your DM time and you got a batch. Let's say that the system got abused and led to annoyances when a DM made claims nobody else believed.

So, after talking with Mags, I created a DM time tracker and the system of x hours / 4, with a maximum of 8 DC. That's somewhere early 2006.

This wasn't really satisfying because some DMs still made 30+ player hours and maybe 4 or 5 dm hours. So, the system got tweaked and now your DM hours need to be at least 25% of your player hours to get anything.

A bit later we had the feeling that DC output was too low and needed a bit of a push. So, I devised the flat rate addition, while keeping the original cap.

The last change is over two years ago, and I guess there's no harm in another tweak. It's not something that was fixed in one go when we started Amia, and the staff isn't the same as it was when we last changed it.

I came up with the calculations, based on what I assumed to be fair. I have no use for coins, I barely play and if I do I want to earn my levels the hard way. The last two changes I made together with Cori (then the Head DM). I don't know anybody who is less flexible when it comes to staff standards than Cori, he can't even spell the word 'compromise' (maybe Tormak is better/worse at it, it's a close call). The current system is what we thought to be a fair solution that motivates DMs to be online and to give out coins. Maybe it isn't the best solution, but it was the best we could think of at the time.

Okay, so I think so far we've established:

1. The Majority of Players on Amia are pridegaming, whiners who want it all handed to them on a plate (I assume its divided up a little into categories)
2. DMs are finding that a minority of players actually roleplay and much of their time is spent, getting annoyed at the majority and then being accused of favouritism by giving stuff to the minority who are doing the right thing.

This is, as Mago rightly points out, a cultural thing (how we do things around here) peculiar to Amia in some ways. DMs tread that fine line between being right bar stewards and having the lazy affair approach to DMing. On "food eating" servers, you just have to breathe the wrong way and you're banned for life, you often don't even get a right of reply. Do note that many that were banned from these other servers, end up here...(for the record, I chose Amia, didn't get banned from elsewhere).

To a certain extent, Amia ends up with the dross that have been booted from these other servers. Usually, they're not griefers or whatnot, but pridegamers (since the griefer gets banned pretty quickly). It certainly isn't all of us, but a number of the playerbase, are in fact, those banned from other servers. Some of them, are really nice players and great roleplayers, some are the pits.

Unless Amia does lift the bar a little in terms of quality control, this will always be an issue.

But go too far the -other- way, the way of the pedantic food eating 'hardcore' servers and you end up with just a bunch of conformists with no imagination and Nazi's for DMs.

I still think Amia could be a little more tweaked to push up the quality a bit higher, by insisting on staying IC even more than we currently do and by moving some of the mechanics towards IC'ness (e.g., notice boards, etc) and that should move the culture a little along towards a less RP "lite" server to a middle ground RP server.

I guess somewhere between where it currently is and say, Arelith, in its cultural norms on what's expected.

Amia moved away from Arelith's culture because, the DMs over there are very, very strict and police RP and the forums to the point that you're scared to breath the wrong way for fear of being banned. That's our positive side. We aren't so anally retentive.

Now it could edge slightly back towards that, without being arses about it and that should nip the whiners, pridegamers, carebears, god gamers and other problems in the bud (yes, we've all been one to some extent at times, me included!).

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

but they pretty much shut me down straight away because they aren't the "Story DM's" they only do maintence and small spontanious mini events. Which seem's like complete poo.

This upsets me as a DM and whoever told you this has my personal finger waggling at them right now.

Idem. Though, I hope you don't confuse a DM's lack of time to do what you asked to "shutting you down". DMs are not automated machines, that are able to jump at every request, after all. There's no need to be rude about not having time, though.

O, yes, there's a difference between not having time and the other, but I think every DM should make an honest attempt at running something big at least once. Or even just medium sized. When you got to be a DM, you do everything. You don't get to just do maintenance.

Everyone's a "Story DM". That's kind of the point of being a DM.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

but they pretty much shut me down straight away because they aren't the "Story DM's" they only do maintence and small spontanious mini events. Which seem's like complete poo.

This upsets me as a DM and whoever told you this has my personal finger waggling at them right now.

Might have been me, although I am actually far worse. When I am online I am available to help people with simple issues. No events, no mini events, no big rebuilds, no request inquiries. I also mention that.

I simply don't have the brainpower left for that, I DM because it doesn't cost me a lot of energy, can be done in 10-30 minutes, and still makes people happy.

I am not much of a pot and kettle man, so I am not too upset that some DM's don't do big events. To each his/her own.

Wasn't you Disco, I can't think of names since it was at the beginning of this year when I was looking to run squire quests for War Knights, (back when we were active heaps). But I'm pretty sure I would have remembered if it was you, and possibly been not so annoyed about it given your the head Dev and I'm unsure if your expected to run DM events or not.

But given it was back at the beginning of the year, I kinda let it just blow by as "Yet another thing in the course of Amia". I'm not to fussed now about it, as it can't change a thing. I have a few theories on who it may have been, but theories don't help anyone much.

To be fair, Disco isn't a DM like the rest of us are, so he's the wrong person to present plot ideas to, in any case. He's a developer above all else, and does module work. Not plots.

Nekhy wrote:

To be fair, Disco isn't a DM like the rest of us are, so he's the wrong person to present plot ideas to, in any case. He's a developer above all else, and does module work. Not plots.

Kinda what I figured, which is why I know it wasn't him given I generally assumed such anyway.

Doesn't matter. I sometimes do little events. I just haven't got the stamina for big ones. Whether it is because I am intimidated by the dm tools, don't have the inspiration, are not willing to deal with another DMs plots, or have other things to do is pretty irrelevant. I don't do them, and my reason seems to be as good as any other.

I can't believe that Nekhy is actually supporting the idea of free rebuilds for DMs, and using herself, and here non-existant time spent on Amia DM'ing/Playing as an argument.

If you don't even have the time to DM, then how would you have gotten the time to play a PC in the first place?

Why should the simple fact that you're wearing a DM badge, which you don't live up to in-game, give you automated rewards?

I just can't agree with that mentality.

When we created Realms of Eldritch, a server which I started off being a tester on, then DM, then developer, then project leader... one of the best RP'ers, DM's and programmers I've ever known, once said to me:

"If there's anything we want to avoid, it's having the DMs receive special perks, benefits or rewarding themselves. We've seen that on far too many other servers. It's not fair, and people will get upset about it. We just won't do that."

And we never did. It was the most obvious and simple ruling on behalf of DMs we could think of.

Actually, the automated DM reward system begins to remind me of those bonuses Bank directors etc were getting, even though the entire world was stuck in an economic mayhem.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

but they pretty much shut me down straight away because they aren't the "Story DM's" they only do maintence and small spontanious mini events. Which seem's like complete poo.

This upsets me as a DM and whoever told you this has my personal finger waggling at them right now.

Probably wasn't me, but I'll generally turn down things that need to be scheduled long in advance. My life and temperament doesn't easily bend to making plans weeks ahead, so I'm one of those DMs you call the day before. I'll happily stay up late or get up at 7 AM if I know it's possible, but I never know two weeks in advance.

I like my rebuilds. I think it's nice to be able to fix the builds of PCs I've long since forgotten the plan for. I don't have the time to grind them from level 1. But that's just what I like, for perfectly selfish reasons, it's not a universal justification. So I can certainly sympathize with the the opinion of Selvec and co. I accept the world isn't fair or equal, and the best we can do is to strive to a balance that satisfies everyone. Since so many have expressed valid annoyance at this, I reckon the current situation isn't ideally balanced and warrants review. On that note:

Nekh wrote:

I've wanted the rebuild prices redone for ages to balance that out, though. I think the prices are far too high, personally. Keep in mind, that the rebuild cost is not only there because we fancy you paying for it, but to deter constant rebuilding taking up time from other more important DMing. Such as giving out DCs and running events. If it wasn't a logistical nightmare to keep track of the thousands of characters rebuilding, I'd rather have free rebuilds occasionally (the same extremely rare rate as for the DMs, naturally) for everyone. We already have a lot of paperwork and adding to it seems counterproductive, because it takes time away from entertaining you. No easy solution to this one, I'm afraid.

I agree with this, and I would like to find a solution. I remember Tutteri saving up for a rebuild for ages, just so he could fix one feat he took on Hunar before he learned to play NWN. It's not very reasonable, IMO. Low-cost rebuilds would have to be more carefully monitored than they are now, though: it's no excuse to go completely swapping base class and character concept.

I don't have any bright ideas, but I do think the discrepancy should be looked into.

Mr Mago wrote:

I can't believe that Nekhy is actually supporting the idea of free rebuilds for DMs, and using herself, and here non-existant time spent on Amia DM'ing/Playing as an argument.

If you don't even have the time to DM, then how would you have gotten the time to play a PC in the first place?

Why should the simple fact that you're wearing a DM badge, which you don't live up to in-game, give you automated rewards?

I just can't agree with that mentality.

When we created Realms of Eldritch, a server which I started off being a tester on, then DM, then developer, then project leader... one of the best RP'ers, DM's and programmers I've ever known, once said to me:

"If there's anything we want to avoid, it's having the DMs receive special perks, benefits or rewarding themselves. We've seen that on far too many other servers. It's not fair, and people will get upset about it. We just won't do that."

And we never did. It was the most obvious and simple ruling on behalf of DMs we could think of.

Actually, the automated DM reward system begins to remind me of those bonuses Bank directors etc were getting, even though the entire world was stuck in an economic mayhem.

You forget that we also have very real drawbacks for DMs. They can't get any DC by playing, no XP from DM events, etc. You can go left, you can go right, and this is what our system evolved in (mind that no current DM was involved in the way it was when Amia started).

Besides, it's easy if you start a new server to pick up a fresh ideology, it isn't if you are on a running one.

I have no opinion about the rebuilds, except that rebuilds have no place on an RP server and should be banned from Amia altogether. I think it's a waste of DM time, it promotes l33t PvP builds, and it's add odds with the concept of character history building through gaining ranks. Then again, I have been saying this for years and I am clearly the loony, lonely prophet in the desert.

Since there is a DC system in place, and the entire request concept is based upon it, I can see the reasoning in having an automated DM DC reward system.

But as has already been pointed out, it's the gap between the DCs DM's are getting and very good PC RP'ers, that's a bit upsetting.

Adding rebuilds on top of that, just makes it ugly.

I would have had 150+ DCs available to me right now, if I would have gotten free rebuilds. Instead I have 14.

I think of people like Eoweniel as well, who was completely lost when it came to making her characters, and continously screwed up while leveling, and had to re-build over and over because of that. All of her DCs were burnt on rebuilding, just to compensate for not being as nerdy about builds as the majority of us are these days.

I'm just not liking it.

If I had the DM-tag of free rebuilds, I could have used those DCs I've earned during the course of almost 4½ years to get something nifty. Like... RP items, wings, a special reskin or polymorph.

But, nah.

I didn't have that DM tag.

Well, I am afraid you don't have my sympathy for aforementioned reasons.

Say no to rebuilds!

TormakSaber wrote:

I assure you it is as frustrating, or possibly more, to go around and only find "The Usual Suspects" (who we have already determined we cannot DC, otherwise we're biased to them.) and everyone else mindlessly grinding, as it is for you to not get the DCs in the first place.

..Wait, what? :shock:

So there are actually people you won't give DCs, because if you do, you're "afraid" (lack of a better word, not taking a shot) that the playerbase will whine (with good reason, sure, but still)?

Say no to powerbuilds, if anything.

But that won't ever happen on Amia.

I fully agree with Mago (the earlier post).

I have no such people, Dakotaen. But then, I don't exaclty have close friends I play with, on Amia.

Dakotaen wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

I assure you it is as frustrating, or possibly more, to go around and only find "The Usual Suspects" (who we have already determined we cannot DC, otherwise we're biased to them.) and everyone else mindlessly grinding, as it is for you to not get the DCs in the first place.

..Wait, what? :shock:

So there are actually people you won't give DCs, because if you do, you're "afraid" (lack of a better word, not taking a shot) that the playerbase will whine (with good reason, sure, but still)?

It's from old cases of favouritism. There used to be DMs who very frequently gave DCs to a select group of people which they normally played with as their PCs.

That's where the paranoia in giving DC's to the people you normally play with, PC-side, comes from.

That makes Teh Dako sadbear. ::Tear /wrist::

Where are our players: DM events etc

Who is online