AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Halen_Van wrote:

Granted, my cure for that is for people to ease up on the strings of those DC purses.

Wouldn't tat make more people flock to events because it's now the only way to really get DCs?

The DMs automatically getting DCs for being online tastes bad. Tastes really, really bad.

The players should reward the DMs with DCs, not DMs rewarding themselves.

It's one really big issue I have with Amia and its incorporation of the DM staff. It's as if being a DM is something you get as an extra gig, at the side of playing your PCs.

You don't really have to do it, and when you do it, the players are expected to reward you for doing it.

It's a very weird attitude and perception.

On more or less all other RP servers I've ever played on, DM'ed on or developed, the attitude was something more along the lines of:

"We're here to entertain the players. That's our primary function. We're here to provide the players with what the module can not, as often as possible, and with the greatest dedication possible.

A player should never be bored. The DM is responsible for keeping a player entertained and enjoying the server."

On Amia... it's more like... "I'm a DM. I'm bored atm, so I log onto the DM client. Let's see if there are any PCs that can keep me entertained, and if they entertain me well enough, I'll give them a DC."

Bah.

DMing is a hard gig, and I know it deserves rewarding. Plus a DM can't get DC's by other DM's. At one time that was a disadvantage.

I didn't mean ease up the purse strings at the events, I meant ease up the purse strings in general rp. You aren't as apt to go to an event just for the chance of a DC if you've seen one given to you in less than a month.

Yes, the green rods are there, and that's important, but they aren't the only way a player should get them.

Unless it has been changed, DMs are given DCs for their time spent on the DM Client.

That's equivalent to DMs rewarding DMs.

Mr Mago wrote:

The DMs automatically getting DCs for being online tastes bad. Tastes really, really bad.

The players should reward the DMs with DCs, not DMs rewarding themselves.

It's one really big issue I have with Amia and its incorporation of the DM staff. It's as if being a DM is something you get as an extra gig, at the side of playing your PCs.

You don't really have to do it, and when you do it, the players are expected to reward you for doing it.

It's a very weird attitude and perception.

On more or less all other RP servers I've ever played on, DM'ed on or developed, the attitude was something more along the lines of:

"We're here to entertain the players. That's our primary function. We're here to provide the players with what the module can not, as often as possible, and with the greatest dedication possible.

A player should never be bored. The DM is responsible for keeping a player entertained and enjoying the server."

On Amia... it's more like... "I'm a DM. I'm bored atm, so I log onto the DM client. Let's see if there are any PCs that can keep me entertained, and if they entertain me well enough, I'll give them a DC."

Bah.

Respectfully, I disagree with the whole idea a DM shouldn't be recieving SOME sort of perk for DMing, especially considering he is taking time out of his own player-side experience to DM (whether that be handle Administrative work DMside, or give plot to the players).

And somehow, I do not think it's like that at all for many if any of the DM's Mago. They DM, because they want to DM.

I don't imagine many of them want the Administrative part of the job, but it does come with the territory.

I never said that DM'ing shouldn't come with a perk.

In my opinion, a good DM sees DM'ing itself as a big enough reward. And the respect and status which comes with it.

I consider several former DMs and quite a few current ones as prime examples of the attitude and perception in regards of DMing, which I mentioned in my former post.

What respect?

I got more respect over the time playing than I did when I had to flash my DM card and tell people to quit breaking rules.

I think it's entirely reasonable that DMs get their reward for time spent on the DM Client, and get their DCs that way. t also stops problems like DMs showing favouritism to other DMs etc.

I don't keep track of DCs, most of mine instantly go into experience because my character doesn't hunt much anymore given his personality. I understand the use for them for items and special stuff but to me their a quaint oddity.

And knowing how hard DMs work, having been one in the past, I kinda think its not unreasonable they get some DCs for doing that work. But personally I don't care much about DC's either way.

I'm happy with any scheme's that get DMs:

1. More respect
2. Spend more time DM'ing than playing PCs (which happens when they get more of 1)
3. Running Events + Admin time

I'm not against DM's going playerside, I just wish more time would be spent in the DM client. That's not going to happen without DMs getting respect.

One simple way DMs could spice up hunts for instance is:

Take over a boss and use it to the best of its ability to really make it a challenge.

Spawn double the rate of monsters on an adventuring party, to make them work really hard at it whilst adventuring.

These two things require little to no setting up events, yet make it fun for players.

Set up an NPC roadblock of bandits, another short sharp encounter.

Mr Mago wrote:

Unless it has been changed, DMs are given DCs for their time spent on the DM Client.

That's equivalent to DMs rewarding DMs.

1 DC per 4 hours of DMing, plus 1 or 2 DCs based off a full ratio of how many DCs we've given to how many players that week: If we give less DCs, or only give DCs to a few people, we get less DCs.

DMs do not AFK on the client, or shouldn't be, and if they are, I chew them out. Personally. In the past, DMs have been removed for egregious AFKing to exploit the system for DCs. We do not abide it.

We are not eligible for "normal DCs" like players.

Do we get more DCs than basically anyone in the server?

Yes.

Do we deserve it?

Not gonna answer that question.

~~~~

Re: Disco, when B was empty, you told players you wanted people in B, you told DMs you wanted people in B, and if they moved there, they got first crack at faction areas and priority treatment, because B is crowded and A has "a dozen redundant areas with very long toes."

~~~~

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n my opinion, a good DM sees DM'ing itself as a big enough reward. And the respect and status which comes with it.

I'd keep DMing if I no longer got DCs on the server period. Though I don't honestly feel there's 'respect' or 'status', and frankly I don't really care. I'm here to make the world alive and fun for you guys. Unfortunately my definition of fun also includes exciting consequences for failure, nor a run through a tunnel to easy victory, and ultimately that's what 90% of Amia's players want. And a lot of that last 10% is DMS, who I actively avoid running events for because of accusations of bias and favoritism, and the ones left are the ones I'm friends with and always running events for because they're the players who I can count on to be around as characters... so I don't run much for THEM anymore because of bias ad favoritism.

~~~~~~~

Re: Wyjyn's MacGuffin. We did this. It was called "The Rising". What happened is no PCs bothered to do anything and 2 DMs, me and Ron had to do everything, and no other DMs bothered doing a goddamn thing, then me and Ron wrapped it up after it was pronounced an utter failure. Yoss is absolutely right when he says "It would just be me".

Quote:

On Amia... it's more like... "I'm a DM. I'm bored atm, so I log onto the DM client. Let's see if there are any PCs that can keep me entertained, and if they entertain me well enough, I'll give them a DC."

Bah.

This is not my attitude, don't ever tell me it is.

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Lack of a large scale plot happening is 'precisely' the biggest problem with amia.

Hurgh... they are nightmare to manage, like wyrmhold and Nes'ek were, and sometimes the amount of bitching in your inbox makes it not worth to deal with .I can't help with that the characters act the way they do. If you are 'excluded' from the event, it is not my doing, it is the players. I'm sorry if X group doesn't tell Y person. That isn't my fault. Please don't blame me for it. I'm sorry the event wasn't in your timezone. That's just the time I have to work with. I'm sorry. I do the best I can.

~~~~

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With the exception of a small handful of people, I seriously doubt people on this server are so close minded and frightful that their 'comfort sphere' might be violated that it would be the source of their complaints.

unfortunately, this is a lot more people than your small handful, in my experience. Even players who have been on the server a very long time tend to balk at these things.

Quote:

Semidi, from my perspective, never walked into an event thinking 'Well this will never work because [X] is too much of a pussy to get out of their comfort sphere and take it like a man'. He always walked in like he was playing action figures with a friend.

Can tragedy not be a proper ending? Must everything end "well"? I do not restrict your actions, you restrict yourselves. I will not stop you from doing a bad idea. I will let you do your bad idea and experience the thrill of failure. I will let you beat on that wall until you realize it's only 10 feet long and you can just walk around it. I give you freedom but you walk the straight and narrow!

~~~

I end with a question: On many servers, there is a prominent thread which states: "By Signing this thread, you open your characters up to permadeath, and any other horrible things a DM will inflict upon you. Do notsign this unless you consent." Without fail, much of the serve signs, by their own volition.

How many Amians would do this, do you honestly think? I admit, my estimation is not very high at all, and I think most of them would be DM signatures.

I probably would Tormak. That's me though. (And techinically I'm a former DM, so I am not sure if I would quite count the same way)

I'd go for it for any of my chars bar Amenia (I've grown faaaaar too attached to her).

It would not be on a character basis. You would sign it as a player. Period.

Meh, then I guess I would.

But with a "Meh" attitude. Ultimately proving my statement, and my gut feelings.

I may be hesitant, but the point is I'd sign it.
I've gotten myself involved in events with permadeath on the table before.

I wouldn't sign it personally, and I won't even try to convince anyone otherwise.

Reason being one could interpret their character being perma'd as something more based on personal feelings towards the players themselves.

I'd wonder if the DMs had no issues permaing someone elses hard earned character.

Also, Perma'ing someone else's character for some simple event isn't going to help the server...if anything it would destroy it. Because building a new character all the time to have it perma'd off(and on someone else's whim) would make the game not worth playing. Would I get something in return for having my character perma'd? Or would the only compensation be the joy of being part of some event I have no real control over on any level except my own emotes and words?

Last edited by BloodNAshes on Thu, Oct 08 2009, 4:48 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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But with a "Meh" attitude. Ultimately proving my statement, and my gut feelings.

Make it possible for me to level up through DM events and/or the job system in roughly the same amount of time it would take to level grind, and I would consent without hesitation to accept the possibility of perma-death from a plot for all my characters. In other words, greatly increase the XP value of DCs and/or the job XP value for players who choose this option and I'm fully on board.

As it is now, the massive headache that is spending hours upon hours hunting just to get your characters to a level where they could even participate in most DM events or engage in conflict with other PCs is not ameliorated but only exacerbated by the thought of all those pointless hours going to waste should your character get axed, regardless of how good it would be for a single story.

If it were also possible to level through only doing scripted quests (which would grant much more XP, but be one time events that carry more risk and require more planning) instead of random monster whacking, then I'd not only accept the risk of perma-death in DM events but in PvM as well, and gladly.

Last edited by BlackDahlya on Thu, Oct 08 2009, 4:48 AM, edited 1 time in total.

EDIT: Typos. -.-

Holy stick of (insert random Batman & Robin wording here)!

As I thought, this thread got huge while I was sleeping. I took two hours to read all posts here and many of the things being said were already addressed, but I felt like saying more anyway. >.<

FireFromTheSky wrote:

If that "something" involves stuff like forcing the entire drow population to be sick and start rotting away? Forcing negatives like these on pcs and then not letting them solve the situation unless they meet your random predicted
"solution"?

"You didn't ask to get sick, but now we toss this at you anyway, and since you failed to find a cure the way we planned you would, you can stay sick till you die, suckers."

Pardon, but the IC attitude of some of the drow PCs was what increased the number of infected, be the infected PCs or NPCs. Mind, this is not a flame or a critique. Only one of the many involved factors: it is a fact that many drow PCs thought it to be a very wicked/cruel/Lolthite idea to infect the other characters. Tranny was mainly infecting NPCs and, as far as I am concerned, a PC or another that was too stupid or too careless (in my PC's case and I think it was Arith's too) to.. well, do something stupid or too careless: like mine, when not covering his whole body when examining a wyrmling.

In the beginning, my character tried to keep it secret by avoiding people because: a) He didn't want to be murdered for being sick; b) He didn't want to risk infecting other people AND HE VOICED SUCH OPENLY to some of his "friends", before he knew he was infected - needless to say, a bit too late. One or two characters, maybe three, had already been infected by Auron whether by being in the same closed room with him or by burning a bloodied mask that had been previously used by my character.

When Auron chose to involve Arith (the Ul'faeruk), I as a player and my character were both aware that Arith was in risk of being infected too, but there was nothing else my PC could have done, especially because he was not smart enough to try finding a cure for himself. Also, since he knew, back then, of only a way to infect people, he was completely oblivious to the idea that the sickness was airborne and was thus unaware that being in a closed room with another drow would infect him/her. While it only involved the wyrmlings, I sent many IC PMs to Tranny (and the Players of the Ul'faeruk, Tinnerai's Ilharess and even the Ul'saruk) reporting the researches made by my character (who likes to think of himself as an expert in dragons). While he could think of many reasons how the plague acted, took note of the symptons, and studied how it could be transmitted (conjectures, more than actual physical experiences back then, thus commiting the mistake of infecting people unwittingly), he simply had not the wits to think of what could be a cure. He also was pretty positive that the plague only affected dragons. It was only too late that he knew (or was rumoured) himself to be the "gateway" due to being a dragonblooded drow.

Auron is not smart. He is a sorcerer, not a mage. And while drow, due to his low wisdom, he is more impulsive than smart: he acts before thinking. All the time, if not most of it.

He also did not want to risk going to the surface and spread the plague to other people not because he cared about surfacers, but because he thought that the more infected, the faster the plague would spread and the harder it would be to find a cure especially if those researching got infected too - he heatedly believed they were weaker than him and could die faster than him. Thus, when he finally went to the Salandrans, he adviced them to use masks and to keep it all a secret. Yes, he was paranoid. So, in a way, my IC action of avoiding people to not make the plague and a search for a cure worse, was also what some are thinking "being elitist". I was only acting in character, not wanting to OOC exclude people. Just as well, the IC actions of the females to leave the search for a cure in the hands of a single person was not because they wanted to exclude people, but because it was IC of them to do. And, naturally, if the search failed, it would be much better to blame it on a single person's "incompetence", singling out a single culprit, than admiting defeat if many were searching to no avail.

I knew the risk of being accused of elitism and I believe I voiced one such concern to Tranny, too, who, in turn, told me not to worry and keep acting IC.

Still on the topic of "elitism"/involvement of others, when I involved Arith and was IC suggested to try finding a cure with the famed Salandrans, I sent a PM to Tranny asking if he would be fine with that because I was worried that the plot would become too much for him to handle, with too many people involved. I thought that perhaps he had it pre-planned for drow only and if it reached more than the drow, it would be difficult for him to handle it. Many times I thought things were out of his control and I am ashamed to admit that I voiced such concern to my fellow players - and I might have made some vague mention and apology to Tranny. If I did not, I am doing it now.

Maybe it was one of my huge mistakes during the plot, but most of the times I was asking Tranny if this and that was okay because I didn't want to overburden him (yes, I know I am repeating myself. Sorry!). Hells, he was very patient and kept telling me that it was okay, that I as a player should not worry about it and act as my character would. Perhaps I was too arrogant or too quick, or both, to think that perhaps he would not know how to deal with it. But whether or not he saw/read/understood that in the PMs I sent, he was very polite and graceful and, in the end, I knew I was worrying too much and tried not to think too much either, and just play.

I was also worried with the delay in finding a cure. There was too much at stake. I told Tranny that if my character had to die, or get some sort of permanent harm, I would be fine. It would be sad because I was attached to the character and I am proud of his story. But it was a risk I was willing to take. However, this attachment is also why I got worried when I found out that I was dependant of other PCs concerning the search for the cure and there were none or they were slow for many (IC and OOC) reasons and my characters' symptons kept worsening (sp?), without the immediate sign of a cure. Again, I voiced such concern to some of the involved Salandran players and also to Tranny himself.

In a way, I was kind of furious to know that my character's life was standing on a blade's edge and there was nothing that I could think I could do about it, that his life and his demise depended on other involved PCs.

I apologized back then and I apologize again now for this attitude. It was selfish. It was arrogant.

To further support my policy of running risks, I mentioned on an old little plot with Yossi the same, when a wolf tore out my character's arm, that I could leave him without the arm if it was necessary. I actually thought it would be cool if it happened, he would need to relearn all his fighting skills. It was, however, the IC suggestion of a PC that made me see that the arm could be regrown, whether I recovered it from the wolf's stomach and sewed it (sp?) back in place to get a nasty scar, or simply used a spell to regrow a new one.

The plague plot helped developing and even recreating my character's personality. It helped reshape it completely, though many of the changes will only be noticed (if noticed), when I come back from my break. Many will happen through stories since, well... there is not enough drow PCs around to help making it happen.

It was also due to the lack of drow players on back then, that I could not carry on with the little plot I crudely designed with Tranny. The interaction with PCs would be what could be the trigger, what could be the heart of it. But by then I had only NPCs (or powerful PCs who would be immune to that "bluff" - not to mention that the players that played them had erratic schedules on) to count on and I loathed the idea of using NPCs. Thus, I dropped the plot since I knew that, without "small PC fishes", I would not manage to spread my character's "black propaganda" and try to hook or net the "big PC fishes".

And as a last addition to this post (and hopefully I did not deviate from its main idea >.<), I take back what I said concerning this:

555444333 wrote:

Though your argument there were only 3 drow doing stuff Dahlya is flawed and fallacious, I know of at least two others, who were certainly providing ancillary support if not being on your tiny, insular, isolated committee who nobody was requested to help nor was anyone brought in, in the course of RP...

Pot-kettle?

Addendum: The moral of the story? Don't sit on a plot! VOMIT it EVERYWHERE likeyou've just necked a 2 liter of vodka!

And like DM events, people might not react how you want them to to your RP... so If the drow don't all hold hands, don't cut them out the loop.

I mean, we could have had competing laboratories as each mage strives for the glory of finding the cure! It could have been great sorcere RP! But no, instead we get this self-appointed, unite or die committee.

Way to kill the RP.

I believe I addressed this accusation of clique (if you truly meant it - if not, I apologize) with my words above, Numbers.

I only knew of THREE DROW PLAYERS. If I had known of more, of course I would have mentioned, like I remembered now (and the player also mentioned) that Zanthair tried to get Isendut'tar involved near "the end" of it and that beciv had Vhlos'ayne (sp?) aid Aly'isgar with that.

Later, I heard from a PC that another huge faction was also trying to find a cure, but it had shady reasons for such - which is also why my character kept trying to avoiding interaction with many people. I suffered with my PC's IC actions, because many a time I would be left without RP, or RPing with myself - though this called the attention of one DM who interacted with me and through that action I felt no guilty of spending one single DC (two, actually), to require simple DC items.

I am also aware that, outside the "main" drow playerbase, there was also Lucretia and, as I already mentioned, Delarwyn's Ilmaterite priestess. And the already mentioned "shady faction". The Kelemvorites tried to be involved, but my character saw them as a threat (due to an IC perceived bloodlust, considering Kelemvorites were always "slaughtering" people) to the drow city.

There probably were more people, but I named the ones I was aware of.

To get back on topic, I agree that it is not the lack (or excess) of DM plots, that's been driving the players away.

It is as many people already mentioned: Real Life, most of the time. Though I cannot disagree when there is mention of "OOC" issues and some players not being mature enough to deal with them.

Mind, I am not excluding myself here. I am aware that I am not the shinniest example of virtue. I admit I was involved in one or two of those issues, myself, that I tried to solve directly with the players involved.

Whether or not they were solved, I am unaware. I just know I tried addressing them without needing to take it to the DMs.

Pardon the huge post. >.<

I have been told by a person whose opinion I respect that my reply to this topic could be construed as "taking things overly personal".

Maybe I did, but this topic deserved more than the basic canned DM response anyways, and I won't pretend to speak for the entire DM team in this situation: I'll speak for myself and only myself.

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I'm here to make the world alive and fun for you guys. Unfortunately my definition of fun also includes exciting consequences for failure, nor a run through a tunnel to easy victory, and ultimately that's what 90% of Amia's players want.

This does beg the question just who you are really DMing for. And this is directed at several dms, your statement just seems the most telling. You basically admit to forcing your kind of fun on people who you know don't care for such.

Several dms have stated how they don't want to give players an easy time, show them roadsigns, how they try to toss up roadblocs for characters. You try to challenge people to the point that if they fail to live up to the challenge they lose, with consequences if they fail.

You keep doing this despite of the admition that you know the majority of players do not want this. The attitude seems to be to suck it up, if you lose, you lose, your fault.

The dms keep raising the stakes, enforcing consequences, making events a pain to go though when the majority wants an easy fun ride, to cruise though an epic story and come out as heroes.

Quting the above, 90% players don't want a challenge or consequences for failure. So why keep making them? Not only didn't the players ask for this, many are being vocal against this approach.

As a DM, one should strive to run events that the players find fun foremost. Which isn't to say a DM shouldn't be having fun running events, but ultimately you are running them for the players, not your self.

I'll end by quoting this, as it pretty much sums up my thoughs.

Quote:

Aside from that, I've been getting the feeling for a little bit now and I'm clearly not the only one from the looks of this topic, that the attitude DMs are going to in these events is a little disturbing. It doesn't seem like they're going into it with the intent of making it fun for the player, but to try and kick their feet out from under them and tell them to have fun that way.

The DMs are going into their events with whatever plan they had developed, alongside what appropriate reactions and actions their antagonists would be carrying out.

They probably aren't handing anything to you except the chance to do something. What you make of it, is up to you.

StormEarthFire wrote:

Quote:

I'm here to make the world alive and fun for you guys. Unfortunately my definition of fun also includes exciting consequences for failure, nor a run through a tunnel to easy victory, and ultimately that's what 90% of Amia's players want.

This does beg the question just who you are really DMing for. And this is directed at several dms, your statement just seems the most telling. You basically admit to forcing your kind of fun on people who you know don't care for such.

Several dms have stated how they don't want to give players an easy time, show them roadsigns, how they try to toss up roadblocs for characters. You try to challenge people to the point that if they fail to live up to the challenge they lose, with consequences if they fail.

You keep doing this despite of the admition that you know the majority of players do not want this. The attitude seems to be to suck it up, if you lose, you lose, your fault.

The dms keep raising the stakes, enforcing consequences, making events a pain to go though when the majority wants an easy fun ride, to cruise though an epic story and come out as heroes.

Quting the above, 90% players don't want a challenge or consequences for failure. So why keep making them? Not only didn't the players ask for this, many are being vocal against this approach.

As a DM, one should strive to run events that the players find fun foremost. Which isn't to say a DM shouldn't be having fun running events, but ultimately you are running them for the players, not your self.

I'll end by quoting this, as it pretty much sums up my thoughs.

Quote:

Aside from that, I've been getting the feeling for a little bit now and I'm clearly not the only one from the looks of this topic, that the attitude DMs are going to in these events is a little disturbing. It doesn't seem like they're going into it with the intent of making it fun for the player, but to try and kick their feet out from under them and tell them to have fun that way.

Zante, stop circumventing your forum ban. You weren't exactly the most fun person to run an event for and you are basically the poster child for the player who whines when things don't go your way. You're an example of the player that should never be in an online multiplayer game, a player who plays purely for themselves, for "Their story", and not as a contributor to the overall plot and environment, that is, unless it glorifies you and your fifteen minutes of fame.

I suspect you'll reply t this under a new account, because I'm banning this one again. Right now. Stop circumventing your ban.

Last edited by BlackDahlya on Thu, Oct 08 2009, 5:23 AM, edited 1 time in total.

What's with posts from accounts created like... yesterday and today?

Banned or not banned but afraid to say what they think?

I think there still exists a way to know whose account that is, if one checks the IP.

Not a flame.

Just noting this, apparently, recent trend.

EDIT: Ah, thank you Tormie. Sheesh... some people...

Since I've played on City of Arabel, Arelith and Aertheca, all with permadeath policies and even had one of my characters on Arelith permadeathed by a DM, I'd sign it.

Amia does seem to have an element of pridegamers but partly, that's because the DMs aren't Nazi's and allow you quite a huge amount of leeway. Try pridegaming on City of Arabel and you'll be banned quicker than you can say "but...."

That freedom to be creative without DM interference is both a blessing and a curse. I expect, that IC consequences are always IC consequences and if the DM team decide that your character has peeved enough powerful people off, I see that they're fully justified in bumping you off permanently. That's the risk you take.

In the beta period before they set up that Aertheca server, they actually had perma-death zones for war by the different factions. If you were killed in that area, your PC was perma-killed. There were BIG signs saying so. You didn't enter there lightly and you went in prepared.

Such an area on Amia would prove VERY interesting indeed...haha!

BlackDahlya wrote:

What's with posts from accounts created like... yesterday and today?

Banned or not banned but afraid to say what they think?

I think there still exists a way to know whose account that is, if one checks the IP.

Not a flame.

Just noting this, apparently, recent trend.

It's all the same guy: Zante, who has been banned from the game and forum banned, but insists on lobbying his two cents in and looking incredibly hypocritical while he does it.

TormakSaber wrote:

BlackDahlya wrote:

What's with posts from accounts created like... yesterday and today?

Banned or not banned but afraid to say what they think?

I think there still exists a way to know whose account that is, if one checks the IP.

Not a flame.

Just noting this, apparently, recent trend.

It's all the same guy: Zante, who has been banned from the game and forum banned, but insists on lobbying his two cents in and looking incredibly hypocritical while he does it.

Bitterly enough, I suspected it could be a drow player.

Oh, and because I think part of his post is worth replying to:

Quote:

Several dms have stated how they don't want to give players an easy time, show them roadsigns, how they try to toss up roadblocs for characters. You try to challenge people to the point that if they fail to live up to the challenge they lose, with consequences if they fail.

You keep doing this despite of the admition that you know the majority of players do not want this. The attitude seems to be to suck it up, if you lose, you lose, your fault.

The dms keep raising the stakes, enforcing consequences, making events a pain to go though when the majority wants an easy fun ride, to cruise though an epic story and come out as heroes.

Because that would be admitting defeat to people like you. I consider players of your sort my bane.

If a provable majority of this server (My "90%" is a percentage borne of frustration.), a proveable majority sincerely wants the events Zante says we should run, quote "An Easy Fun Ride, to cruise through an epic story ((presumably with no real challenge)) and come out as heroes", then I will resign from this server as DM, because I will have personally failed as a DM. Until then,. I will continue to run events with consequences, events with choice, events not on rails, ones that make you think, make me think, and challenge me to keep up with you, just as much as you keep up with me.

You're not a hero unless you earned that title. Anything else is just reading a script and going through the motions. Go read a book, because that's what you're asking for.

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Aside from that, I've been getting the feeling for a little bit now and I'm clearly not the only one from the looks of this topic, that the attitude DMs are going to in these events is a little disturbing. It doesn't seem like they're going into it with the intent of making it fun for the player, but to try and kick their feet out from under them and tell them to have fun that way.

It is, in truth, a response to a much more important complaint that was made by the playerbase a while back: that events weren't meaningful enough. That you wanted serious change and impact upon the world. In a believeable (note I did not say realistic, but believeable) universe, those things do not occur without sacrifice and turmoil, physical or emotional. An event where you were made to feel like, as you put it, action figures in a self-contained universe, was not satisfying because everything returned to the status quo.

Now you seem to be saying you want to change the world to your whims and to never have to work at it, either. The playerbase's definition of "fun" is "DMs do all the work and I get all the credit and suffer no consequences". Instead, I say realize that your concept of "hero" might be completely incongruous with the classic definition...

...even though the secret, hidden challenge is to strive for it nonetheless, against all odds, and to make decisions that at least make you feel like one, even if people don't necessarily see you as one. That is a reward. That is what makes a person feel good. Not to be recognized as a hero. But to genuinely be one. That's what the serious RP'er brand of events are geared towards: giving you the opportunity to genuinely be that hero without we DMs bending the universe over backwards to make you seem like one.

DM Tormak,

I don't want easy fun rides.
I don't want it handed to me on a plate.

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I do want hard events, that are challenging
I do want such events to be lifechanging for my pc's if need be
I do want events where, the consequences -could- be permadeath
I do want events where, should the PC's win, they truly do save the day
But if they fail....they get what happened to the Eternal Order's temple or the Loviatar temple.

---

Players who want the easy ride, are also the bane of my life as another player.

i agree with sounds post myself. Any time that ive had to work hard for something in amia, just like in life, i come to find myself enjoying it even more.

xdrone561x_XC wrote:

i agree with sounds post myself. Any time that ive had to work hard for something in amia, just like in life, i come to find myself enjoying it even more.

That's what I shoot for, while also trying to make it fun and entertaining. Or scary. I enjoy scary.

Last edited by krytellan on Thu, Oct 08 2009, 5:57 AM, edited 1 time in total.

TormakSaber wrote:

How many Amians would do this, do you honestly think? I admit, my estimation is not very high at all, and I think most of them would be DM signatures.

Oh, totally. Where can I sign?

OK, I have to premise my post by saying I have not been involved in a DM event for well over 2 years (apart from having a DM dominate a Winyan guard for me or Lloth sending spiders after our elven party just by giving him a heads up that we were out) and I admittedly avoided the Ne'sek plot because after one encounter on the "Danger Zone" I quickly realized my play style was not suited to what was going to be going on and there were too many clamoring for one spotlight.

With that said, is there anyone on the DM staff that logs in in a freewheeling mood and just rolls with something? Don't know b/c as I said, haven't seen it. Still to this day my fondest memory of anything involving a DM was 3 years ago. Sir Horace randomly targeted our little 5th-6th level party of four in the Trog lair for a side quest. It took 20-30 mins. I was brand new to the world of online NWN and the attention totally blew my mind. He even took the time over the next couple of days to continue to address the lingering effects my character received from the encounter.

Personally, it is this form of involvement that I really miss. Random encounters that do not require a degree in "epic ass-kicking" to do, do not involve the entire server, and are over and done in 30 minutes. It was a freaking great time. Does this still happen? Do we really need events of Epic proportions to keep people entertained? Imagine how many more people you would touch on the server with events like this.

I'll tell you what, it was my first month on Amia, was my second character created, and was the most entertaining 30 minutes ever... and it sucked me RIGHT in. I miss it.

Yossarin wrote:

xdrone561x_XC wrote:

i agree with sounds post myself. Any time that ive had to work hard for something in amia, just like in life, i come to find myself enjoying it even more.

That's what I shoot for, while also trying to make it fun and entertaining. Or scary. I enjoy scary.

Scary is great fun ... if it is scary it means that you've got great immersion.

Yurell wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

xdrone561x_XC wrote:

i agree with sounds post myself. Any time that ive had to work hard for something in amia, just like in life, i come to find myself enjoying it even more.

That's what I shoot for, while also trying to make it fun and entertaining. Or scary. I enjoy scary.

Scary is great fun ... if it is scary it means that you've got great immersion.

Aye. I can safely say that this was one of my main feelings, despite everything else. I loved the feeling of uncertainty, of whether or not my character would die. The immersion would be great and inspired me a lot to write about it.

One of the Salandrans tried to convince him that if he died, Auron would be seen as a Martyr. My character ~almost~ loved the idea and for a couple of minutes pondered if that would be better than coming out alive to shove it on Lolth's face. x)

Yossarin wrote:

xdrone561x_XC wrote:

i agree with sounds post myself. Any time that ive had to work hard for something in amia, just like in life, i come to find myself enjoying it even more.

That's what I shoot for, while also trying to make it fun and entertaining. Or scary. I enjoy scary.

Worth noting that even if what you are working for isn't what you get, it's still not something to off and jump under a passing cart about.

My last 'grand plan' went belly-up in a (for my character) spectacular failure. Thrown out of faction, made to look like a twit, pick up pieces, etc...
Turned out to be a great thing, sort of started the character over in a sense.

As cliched and lame as it sounds, there's really no failure in a story like Amia, it's just the next chapter.

I'm completely against any reward system for DM's.

Being a DM is a responsability, but also a privlage. You get to see a side of Amia rarely shown to other players. You also get an opinion and voice in matters that isn't being drowned out by hundreds of other voices. You get power, and yes there is reponsability for it. Being a DM is reward enough.

Yes it is a hard postion, yes it has responability attached to it, and yes it is thankless. But quite frankely you know that when you take the job. It's not something that should be rewarded.

Because if we are going to do this then I want to be rewarded for all the times I've come on and rped on amia due to my responability to other players. All the times that Faction leaders have thanklessly set up and organised factions events and such. All the times I've gone out of my way to make things interesting in RP for people when I'd rather be doing something else. Why should a Dm get rewarded for doing the job they agreed to do? If you don't like it, don't do it.

So just no. No reward.

You then suggest DMs get DCs like players: at the whims of their peers?

Unless you're suggesting that DMs not recieve DCs, and thus, none of the (multitudinous) associated benefits.

I suggest DM's don't get DC's. Just like me.

*Shrugs* But for purpose of this exercise, I'd rather they get it given by there peer's. Making sure abuse of such systems doesn't take place is the job of the head DM. If a DM abuses the system, they get sacked and probably banned from the server I imagine.

Which basically means it falls into Nekh's domain to make sure it doesn't happen. Given she's head DM and meant to do that kind of thing.

We're not "going to do" any reward system for DMs, but I doubt we're gonna take down the system that has been in place for the past 4 years, either. It's been tweaked along the way a few times and probably will be many times again. But we're not going back to DMs giving DMs DCs based on their judgment and we're not going to player DC distribution. Sorry if that's not your cuppa.

DM's are taken in to be online, be it for helping players with character maintenance, kicking cheater ass, or running events. It's been a tradition to reward their services in DC, and an automated system that simply checks how long you have been online and how much of your available online time has been used for DM-ing is the only fair way to pass out the reward that I can think of. It's also quite elegant: you don't do the intended job, you don't get anything.

We tried other options, and they failed.

The potential to abuse an automated time based system is way to high. Might as well just let DM's reward each other, as the potential for abuse is about the same.

No person, be it player, DM or a Head DM, should be in a position to grant rewards to peers without control. And it would be essentially without control and overseeing, if it was in the hands of one person. The DCs of DMs would only be put up for public scrutiny if that was done for the players, too, and I don't think that's gonna happen. So that option for control is not very nice.

What abuse is there beside signing in as a DM and not doing your job? And if one was inclined to do that Tormak would come down like a ton of angry cat girls on the perpetrator. I think it's a good system.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

I'm completely against any reward system for DM's.

At least they are open about it.
And since they cannot get DC's from other DM's I think it is a fair enough way to get them.
Too easy? Maybe, but... this is only a game, theres more to life then this.
So... who cares?

BTW: I used to take it serious as well, just ask Disco how he liked me and Garou bickering in the tester forums

But I've realised for a while now that that is useless, taking things serious here and caring about it too much etc.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

The potential to abuse an automated time based system is way to high. Might as well just let DM's reward each other, as the potential for abuse is about the same.

Someone tried to abuse it. Two people, in fact.

Neither DM anymore. They were fired. Outright.

My point. Log in, simply type "Sorry, busy" to all the inquiries. Just sit there. Alternatively, falling asleep at the keyboard drunk for a more humerous example.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

My point. Log in, simply type "Sorry, busy" to all the inquiries. Just sit there. Alternatively, falling asleep at the keyboard drunk for a more humerous example.

And as soon as you're discovered you're fired, and broken all trust anyone may have in you.

Last edited by Nekhy on Thu, Oct 08 2009, 7:03 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Yurell wrote:

What abuse is there beside signing in as a DM and not doing your job?

Giving unreasonable items to players etc. AFKing in the client, which I guess equals 'not doing your job'. Though, a DM isn't always online to run events, being there to help players is part of the job.

There's a lot of ways to abuse the client. The typical stuff is pretty much weeded out on this server, if someone was to abuse something they'd have to try harder.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

My point. Log in, simply type "Sorry, busy" to all the inquiries. Just sit there. Alternatively, falling asleep at the keyboard drunk for a more humerous example.

Been done before. They're not DMs anymore.

Where are our players: DM events etc

Who is online