AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Expect the ruleset only allows to 20 for basic PC's, epic level requiring special reasons, extreme achivements and such. Accomplishments not gained by most (90% likely) of Amians, and not deserved.

No, level 21 is as easy as getting the XP from 20 to 21. That's all there is to it.

And no, you're not 15, you're 30. You're a different 30 than in PNP, but you're level 30.

BlackDahlya wrote:

Yurell wrote:

BlackDahlya wrote:

I swear, you already mentioned this at least twice.

And, as usual, the reply to that, unless if the Staff's stance changed, would be:

"Just because it worked there, it will not work here."

Which part of that statement you still did not process?

/rant

For my own rant, the fact that it did work there doesn't mean it won't work elsewhere.

I even remember Tormie's answer, very similar to the one posted above. ((He made his post when I was writing mine and I saw his reply when I hit preview))

What I meant to say with that, Yurell, was that SoaS already made one such suggestion and was already told, as Tormie repeated above, why it would not work on Amia.

Or, at least, why this is not something they think need readjusting for a select few people's preferences.

EDIT: I am unsure if epic means fighting a tough boss for a long time or simply a good plotline. There are many ways to define "epic" not only the one people see with reaching level 21 and beyond.

Every single player, I bet, has their own idea of what would be something truly epic.

Black Dahlya, Tormak's suggestion is that we up the power of the creatures of dhoom relative to the player base if we don't want everyone to be God. He is yet to outline, except in DM events, how they plan to do that. I've made one solution before, yes, I am reiterating it. What part of "re-iterating" don't you understand?

You are yet to also outline how you would create that differential between being god like players and monsters. What is -your- solution? At least I'm trying to give one, not sniping at others ideas.

But the epic quest thing I find is a great idea, its more the one that would make things a bit more fun.

TormakSaber wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Expect the ruleset only allows to 20 for basic PC's, epic level requiring special reasons, extreme achivements and such. Accomplishments not gained by most (90% likely) of Amians, and not deserved.

No, level 21 is as easy as getting the XP from 20 to 21. That's all there is to it.

And no, you're not 15, you're 30. You're a different 30 than in PNP, but you're level 30.

Except that under normal circumstances having the weapons, items and potions avaliable wouldn't be so easy in normal FR setting. So typically getting to level 30 that easily wouldn't be possible, ever.

For example. Drizzt (I hate using him as an example but he's the only ones level I know off by heart), is level 18. The things he had to do to get to that stage, and with the effort to do so, are of epic proportions. Being level 30 in the base FR setting would mean you could kill gods.

Unless your saying that's what would happen, that every level 30 character on Amia is a walking god, I can't see how someone could be level 30 in base FR ruleset.

In base FR ruleset you could get to 30 if you like. Find creatures five levels too low for you, and keep killing them until you level. Boring, tedious, but possible.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Because you achieved the level nessarcy to do those things with no hardship.

How much hardship should one undergo before it's safe to say that he deserves the level anyways?

Well Yurell, in FR base ruleset, enemies don't respawn. So you couldn't do that.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Well Yurell, in FR base ruleset, enemies don't respawn. So you couldn't do that.

In the FR ruleset you have an entire Universe to play with. And a DM keeping watch over you as you play.

soundofastream wrote:

Black Dahlya, Tormak's suggestion is that we up the power of the creatures of dhoom relative to the player base if we don't want everyone to be God. He is yet to outline, except in DM events, how they plan to do that. I've made one solution before, yes, I am reiterating it. What part of "re-iterating" don't you understand?

You are yet to also outline how you would create that differential between being god like players and monsters. What is -your- solution? At least I'm trying to give one, not sniping at others ideas.

But the epic quest thing I find is a great idea, its more the one that would make things a bit more fun.

Dear, as said, I was repeating a reply to your repeated suggestion. That was all.

On what concerns a suggestion, mine was given and I am aware it is not likely to work, in case you did not read the other posts.

BlackDahlya wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

<snip>

Yep. Same goes for levels granted directly by DMs.

Which I thought could be another alternative to becoming epic: PCs that participated on DM plots and performed epic deeds.

<snip>

Selvec Darkon wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Expect the ruleset only allows to 20 for basic PC's, epic level requiring special reasons, extreme achivements and such. Accomplishments not gained by most (90% likely) of Amians, and not deserved.

No, level 21 is as easy as getting the XP from 20 to 21. That's all there is to it.

And no, you're not 15, you're 30. You're a different 30 than in PNP, but you're level 30.

Except that under normal circumstances having the weapons, items and potions avaliable wouldn't be so easy in normal FR setting. So typically getting to level 30 that easily wouldn't be possible, ever.

For example. Drizzt (I hate using him as an example but he's the only ones level I know off by heart), is level 18. The things he had to do to get to that stage, and with the effort to do so, are of epic proportions. Being level 30 in the base FR setting would mean you could kill gods.

Unless your saying that's what would happen, that every level 30 character on Amia is a walking god, I can't see how someone could be level 30 in base FR ruleset.

And that is why I said you are a 'different 30, but still a 30'. You are still level 30, but a different sort of level 30. We are not base FR, so you hit level 30, you fight fire giants, you fight demons, Drizzt is probably level 40 and probably kicks your ass alongside level 40 Wulfgar. Yes, we scale the Realms up to fit the power level of the campaign.

~~~~~~

Quote:

In base FR ruleset you could get to 30 if you like. Find creatures five levels too low for you, and keep killing them until you level. Boring, tedious, but possible.

Nyet. No risk, no reward, DM vetoes experience gain on basis of no risk, you do not level up.

~~~~

Sound: It's easy to show players they aren't godlike. It's not difficult to throw hubris in their face. The players often do it for you. See: Black Caravan. Mylthar. Amia Forest. Players often to it to themselves in PvP. There's no real need to shove into the players' faces in daily life that they're not gods, simply give them adeuqate challenge so they're not bored off their guff if they're fighting, and ideally the challenge is already set against each other, which i more than a challenge, if the conflict is player vs player oriented.

A 30 minute fight of a +5 boss is no more epic than a 1 minute fight or a 5 minute fight. One just took longer than the other. Length does not dictate "Epicosity", especially if 95% of that length is artificial via massive hitpoints, scripted heals, and super DR. It just becomes a longer version of whackamole. If every epic boss was the equivalent of a standard RPg final boss with 5 different forms each capable of dusting your ass then yes I might think it's a little more appropriate and possibly pertaining closer to the word 'epic'...

Scaling PCs down and scaling encounters up can both be done in subtle ways so that both sides still feel like they accomplished something, and it can be done withot saying "lol, you're really only about level 10...."

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

In base FR ruleset you could get to 30 if you like. Find creatures five levels too low for you, and keep killing them until you level. Boring, tedious, but possible.

Nyet. No risk, no reward, DM vetoes experience gain on basis of no risk, you do not level up.

The ~rules~ let you (or is it 4 levels? I can't remember) ... otherwise I could argue that the DM says "You all start off at level 30" Ahah! I just got to lvl 30!

Yurell wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

In base FR ruleset you could get to 30 if you like. Find creatures five levels too low for you, and keep killing them until you level. Boring, tedious, but possible.

Nyet. No risk, no reward, DM vetoes experience gain on basis of no risk, you do not level up.

The ~rules~ let you (or is it 4 levels? I can't remember) ... otherwise I could argue that the DM says "You all start off at level 30" Ahah! I just got to lvl 30!

The Rules, while primarily meant to be held to can be overridden by a DM's decision if they feel that they want to run things a specific way.

A good example: My last games in 3rd Ed, I used a different experience model then the one used based on CRs. It was the one used in the D20 rendition of Big Eyes Small Mouth (an anime sort of RPG) and it lumped in general roleplaying, success or defeat in combat and had a base reward per session.

TormakSaber wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Expect the ruleset only allows to 20 for basic PC's, epic level requiring special reasons, extreme achivements and such. Accomplishments not gained by most (90% likely) of Amians, and not deserved.

No, level 21 is as easy as getting the XP from 20 to 21. That's all there is to it.

And no, you're not 15, you're 30. You're a different 30 than in PNP, but you're level 30.

Except that under normal circumstances having the weapons, items and potions avaliable wouldn't be so easy in normal FR setting. So typically getting to level 30 that easily wouldn't be possible, ever.

For example. Drizzt (I hate using him as an example but he's the only ones level I know off by heart), is level 18. The things he had to do to get to that stage, and with the effort to do so, are of epic proportions. Being level 30 in the base FR setting would mean you could kill gods.

Unless your saying that's what would happen, that every level 30 character on Amia is a walking god, I can't see how someone could be level 30 in base FR ruleset.

And that is why I said you are a 'different 30, but still a 30'. You are still level 30, but a different sort of level 30. We are not base FR, so you hit level 30, you fight fire giants, you fight demons, Drizzt is probably level 40 and probably kicks your ass alongside level 40 Wulfgar. Yes, we scale the Realms up to fit the power level of the campaign.

Now I see what is happening here. Your considering the entire FR mainland as part of Amia's homebrew universe. I'm considering only the lands in the Amia server as Amia Homebrew and the rest base FR. Which is probably where Iron's timeline comes it to make things easier to understand for the entire area the Amia Homebrew Ruleset governs over.

Basically scaling down or up achieves the same thing really that I'm concerned about. That's people going to the mainland and conquering half of it. With the exception of monster encounters, the end result is very similar, minus the effect on numbers etc etc.

Grymia wrote:

Yurell wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

In base FR ruleset you could get to 30 if you like. Find creatures five levels too low for you, and keep killing them until you level. Boring, tedious, but possible.

Nyet. No risk, no reward, DM vetoes experience gain on basis of no risk, you do not level up.

The ~rules~ let you (or is it 4 levels? I can't remember) ... otherwise I could argue that the DM says "You all start off at level 30" Ahah! I just got to lvl 30!

The Rules, while primarily meant to be held to can be overridden by a DM's decision if they feel that they want to run things a specific way.

My point was merely that you don't have to do 'epic' (read: totally awesome) things to become lvl 30. You can get there slowly and patiently (like the monsters you're fighting did).

Okie dokes, I think there seems to be a general consensus to not upscale or downscale bosses.

But what of the other idea? The Epic Quest with Epic Store at end of said quest? Would others find it fun or a challenge? I know its something I thoroughly enjoy, but I'm a bit of a rare, "must do every quest, trap, puzzle" explorer type.

I'm all for continuing the trend of removing repetive hunting and replacing it with good old fashioned DnD quest leveling.

Quote:

I'm considering only the lands in the Amia server as Amia Homebrew and the rest base FR. Which is probably where Iron's timeline comes it to make things easier to understand for the entire area the Amia Homebrew Ruleset governs over.

Bingo. All of Toril in our server is "Amia Homebrew". the entire setting i thus, scaled up.

Quote:

Okie dokes, I think there seems to be a general consensus to not upscale or downscale bosses.

No, I think scaling can occur, but it doesn't need to be hour long 10 man raids. You can find a comfortable middleground. Roooon, where is that Red Knight Castle?!

Two days ago, I was thinking about how level 30 hunting areas would bet set up, again.

It's really quite interesting.

And it would be the most challenging hunting ever to have existed on Amia.

And even better... powerbuilds won't help you.

For the benefit of those of us who aren't psychic, you might want to elaborate a little.

Nau.

That would spoil the surprise and challenge >.<

Mr Mago wrote:

Two days ago, I was thinking about how level 30 hunting areas would bet set up, again.

It's really quite interesting.

And it would be the most challenging hunting ever to have existed on Amia.

And even better... powerbuilds won't help you.

I've seen variations of this idea (granted it was a different level cap on the server). They sometimes work, they sometimes don't. They tend to require a lot of effort and more often than not, someone, at some point, finds a way to cheesify them or exploit them, or use powerbuilds to blast through them.

That doesn't change the fact taht the coolest dungeon I've ever been in had a custom trap that turned you into a chicken for ten minutes >.> Bring a rogue or be embarassed!

Well if knowledge of the concept is going to spoil the surprise and the challenge, wouldn't you need to reset the whole thing once players start blabbing about it to their friends?

For example if you had to solve a puzzle to proceed deeper into a dungeon, it might not be the same puzzle every time, requiring players to solve it instead of phoning a friend.

I've also seen some pretty good dungeons where passing beyond a certain point means you can't go back, only forward.

It's a combination of needing diversity within your party (rogue + mage + str meleer + cleric etc), needing 6+ characters to even get into the actual area, having your way back being cut off, not being able to port in and out, raise dead scrolls not working, having random mazes, not being able to rest, etc.

Not being enemy intensive is fun too. For lower level areas especially, its fun to have dungeons that are more puzzle oriented and don't require much fighting. This gets even cooler in dungeons where there is fighting.

The problem with the puzzle thing is that everyone solves them, or learns eventually (usually...given enough time) things that they really shouldn't be suited to as a character. I'd be semi-afraid of seeing a puzzle-type dungeon or puzzle-containing dungeon with half-orcs with 8 int wandering around activating magical doohickeys and the like that they'd have absolutely no means of using correctly. Of course, arguably trial and error might work...assuming they didn't blow their hands off or something.

Level 30 hunting area's are a waste of time. Ask how many people go to the one level 30 hunting area that is avaliable on Amia, probably not that many.

At level 30 all people care about is gold. Why go to a level 30 hunting area then when someone can spam a lower level area and get gold easier? As I said, level 30 hunting area's are a waste of time as they hold no appeal that can't be gotten elsewhere easier.

You can make puzzles random, and you can make them require a minimum intelligence to interact with.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Level 30 hunting area's are a waste of time. Ask how many people go to the one level 30 hunting area that is avaliable on Amia, probably not that many.

At level 30 all people care about is gold. Why go to a level 30 hunting area then when someone can spam a lower level area and get gold easier? As I said, level 30 hunting area's are a waste of time as they hold no appeal that can't be gotten elsewhere easier.

Amia has no level 30 Area.

And there would be other awards than gold, in a level 30 area.

Don't be so pessimistic.

Not all level 30s only care about gold when they go hunting. Please please please don't make that generalization. Some people actually enjoy the challenge and also some people who actually RP their hunting, and interact while hunting beyond party chat of where to go next and whose turn it is to loot, still have fun hunting.

I am however, inclined to agree that the effort required to make a really big exciting and challenging hunting area for level 30 wouldn't be offset by the number of people that would use it in a capacity beyond as a gold farm.

The whole idea behind it would have to make it challenging to the point where it actually holds some form of IC merit for actually making it to the end.

I have several ideas in that regard.

Mr Mago wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Level 30 hunting area's are a waste of time. Ask how many people go to the one level 30 hunting area that is avaliable on Amia, probably not that many.

At level 30 all people care about is gold. Why go to a level 30 hunting area then when someone can spam a lower level area and get gold easier? As I said, level 30 hunting area's are a waste of time as they hold no appeal that can't be gotten elsewhere easier.

Amia has no level 30 Area.

And there would be other awards than gold, in a level 30 area.

Don't be so pessimistic.

Actand

Actand isn't a level 30 area.

It's a level 26-30 area. Similar to the Abyss.

Then a mistake has been made, because I remember the original aim behind Actand was to make a place that was tough enough to force level 30's to group together to hunt there.

TormakSaber wrote:

Roooon, where is that Red Knight Castle?!

On the drawing board!

Help me make it and I might get my arse back onto it >.>

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Then a mistake has been made, because I remember the original aim behind Actand was to make a place that was tough enough to force level 30's to group together to hunt there.

Actand is the toughest hunting area on the server. But it's not a true epic area in the sense that you'd need a group of 6+ level 30's to get through it.

A proper level 30 area, where puzzles along the way, unlock yet more of the area and hidden doors lead to hidden areas, would be great. It would need to challenge both in terms of intelligence as well as wacking monsters and the spellcaster monsters would fling high level spells at you and really match your wits about you.

I remember one city that you had to storm on Aertheca, whose walls were full of deadly elven AA archers (very high AB too, so they didn't really miss much), you had to break down the gate whilst surviving the onslaught, then bash your way through each section of the city, and then defeat 3 epic bosses, each a powerful illithid spellflinger that would make at least half the party deaded before you took him down. If you didn't work as a team, your entire party would be dead in seconds. It was a real test of skill, you had everyone working hard, and things would turn very ugly real fast IF you didn't work hard at it as a team, using every trick in the book to stay alive.

The thrill of going there (as level 40s) was unbelievable and I've not come across something of that challenge for a long while. Actand sort of gets close in the excitement stakes but still doesn't quite cut it in the level 30 stakes.

If that city had puzzles, secret locations and traps that were hard to detect, it would of won honours in design I'd say. Sadly, those were lacking, so no cigar for the design team imho.

Mr Mago wrote:

The whole idea behind it would have to make it challenging to the point where it actually holds some form of IC merit for actually making it to the end.

I have several ideas in that regard.

Whatever it is I hope it's not a shop or more items. Personally, my characters are adventurers and if they hear of a super dungeon - reward or not - they'd love to conquer it.

I hate the idea of needing "6+" 30s to do an area. Firstly, it defeats the entire purpose of the six-player party cap, and it means that non power-builds will never ever get to look in there. What is the purpose of having large-scale raids? I just don't see it.

One IC merit would be to reward those who finish it with some form of token, that screams "You're one of the very, very few who managed to make it to the end of the most dangerous and scariest places ever known to Amia". Pretty much for IC bragging rights.

Mr Mago wrote:

One IC merit would be to reward those who finish it with some form of token, that screams "You're one of the very, very few who managed to make it to the end of the most dangerous and scariest places ever known to Amia". Pretty much for IC bragging rights.

Or "Congratulations, you can get on at a time when lots of epics are on".

*Shrugs* But fair enough with wanting the bragging rights, though.

Yurell wrote:

I hate the idea of needing "6+" 30s to do an area. Firstly, it defeats the entire purpose of the six-player party cap, and it means that non power-builds will never ever get to look in there. What is the purpose of having large-scale raids? I just don't see it.

Mr Mago wrote:

And even better... powerbuilds won't help you.

Generally, it helps to read before replying.

The way I have envisioned the mobsters, powerbuilds won't do you any good.

What's needed, is diversity. You won't make it as an omgawez0me Sorcerer / BG / Rogue, unless you have meleers, rogues, bards and clerics with you.

The 6+ is to encourage a true adventuring model (one which reminds you of PnP adventuring), rather than a few farmers who otherwise just run through an area and don't bother to RP on the way.

Yurell wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

One IC merit would be to reward those who finish it with some form of token, that screams "You're one of the very, very few who managed to make it to the end of the most dangerous and scariest places ever known to Amia". Pretty much for IC bragging rights.

Or "Congratulations, you can get on at a time when lots of epics are on".

*Shrugs* But fair enough with wanting the bragging rights, though.

That has to be the shittiest and most unprofound complaint / whining I've read today.

Mr Mago wrote:

Yurell wrote:

I hate the idea of needing "6+" 30s to do an area. Firstly, it defeats the entire purpose of the six-player party cap, and it means that non power-builds will never ever get to look in there. What is the purpose of having large-scale raids? I just don't see it.

Mr Mago wrote:

And even better... powerbuilds won't help you.

Generally, it helps to read before replying.

The way I have envisioned the mobsters, powerbuilds won't do you any good.

What's needed, is diversity. You won't make it as an omgawez0me Sorcerer / BG / Rogue, unless you have meleers, rogues, bards and clerics with you.

The 6+ is to encourage a true adventuring model (one which reminds you of PnP adventuring), rather than a few farmers who otherwise just run through an area and don't bother to RP on the way.

You can't tell me that a part of six people that I make will do just as well as the party of six people you make. Powerbuilding always helps, iven all other factrs are the same.

Mr Mago wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

One IC merit would be to reward those who finish it with some form of token, that screams "You're one of the very, very few who managed to make it to the end of the most dangerous and scariest places ever known to Amia". Pretty much for IC bragging rights.

Or "Congratulations, you can get on at a time when lots of epics are on".

*Shrugs* But fair enough with wanting the bragging rights, though.

That has to be the (censored) and most unprofound complaint / whining I've read today.

I'm glad you think so. I did concede that it's fair enough for the IC kudos, but try having areas barred to you because of timezone.

Yurell wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Yurell wrote:

I hate the idea of needing "6+" 30s to do an area. Firstly, it defeats the entire purpose of the six-player party cap, and it means that non power-builds will never ever get to look in there. What is the purpose of having large-scale raids? I just don't see it.

Mr Mago wrote:

And even better... powerbuilds won't help you.

Generally, it helps to read before replying.

The way I have envisioned the mobsters, powerbuilds won't do you any good.

What's needed, is diversity. You won't make it as an omgawez0me Sorcerer / BG / Rogue, unless you have meleers, rogues, bards and clerics with you.

The 6+ is to encourage a true adventuring model (one which reminds you of PnP adventuring), rather than a few farmers who otherwise just run through an area and don't bother to RP on the way.

You can't tell me that a part of six people that I make will do just as well as the party of six people you make. Powerbuilding always helps, iven all other factrs are the same.

That's what I'm telling you.

Fine, I shall have to wait to see it.

Mr Mago wrote:

Actand is the toughest hunting area on the server.

Manor of Mourn is tougher. The fact that nobody farms there, is testament. :lol:

Manor can be soloed without much trouble as a spellcaster.

Same with Cleric / Paladin.

Yurell wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Yurell wrote:

I hate the idea of needing "6+" 30s to do an area. Firstly, it defeats the entire purpose of the six-player party cap, and it means that non power-builds will never ever get to look in there. What is the purpose of having large-scale raids? I just don't see it.

Mr Mago wrote:

And even better... powerbuilds won't help you.

Generally, it helps to read before replying.

The way I have envisioned the mobsters, powerbuilds won't do you any good.

What's needed, is diversity. You won't make it as an omgawez0me Sorcerer / BG / Rogue, unless you have meleers, rogues, bards and clerics with you.

The 6+ is to encourage a true adventuring model (one which reminds you of PnP adventuring), rather than a few farmers who otherwise just run through an area and don't bother to RP on the way.

You can't tell me that a part of six people that I make will do just as well as the party of six people you make. Powerbuilding always helps, iven all other factrs are the same.

Yurell, that is -why- I said a level 30 area needs well hidden epic traps, locks, puzzles and secret hidden doors or transitions. Why? Because then you'll need a rogue, a bard or wizard, you actually get a chance to use your lore skill, your non-combat skill points like persuade, bluff, etc should also be part of it. Failure would mean being sent to the hard route, success allows you to take the faster, slightly easier route, etc...

This way, you need both the powerbuilds and RP builds to get through the area and complete the quest.

Last edited by Yurell on Thu, Oct 08 2009, 2:59 AM, edited 1 time in total.

soundofastream wrote:

Yurell, that is -why- I said a level 30 area needs well hidden epic traps, locks, puzzles and secret hidden doors or transitions. Why? Because then you'll need a rogue, a bard or wizard, you actually get a chance to use your lore skill, your non-combat skill points like persuade, bluff, etc should also be part of it. Failure would mean being sent to the hard route, success allows you to take the faster, slightly easier route, etc...

This way, you need both the powerbuilds and RP builds to get through the area and complete the quest.

Run through it with some powerbuilds, and then run through it with characters generated by hitting 'Recommend'. If it is just as hard then I will accept it, I will apologise for doubting that the area is such that having a powerbuild 'doesn't help'.

Quote:

Run through it with some powerbuilds, and then run through it with characters generated by hitting 'Recommend'. If it is just as hard then I will accept it, I will [i]apologise[/] for doubting that the area is such that having a powerbuild 'doesn't help'.

I still don't think you're getting it my friend, yes, powerbuilds WILL help, but you design it so that RP builds must be part of it, in order to complete the quest. That way, the party of 5, needs:

1. Rogue
2. Cleric/Druid
3. Wizard/Sorc/Bard
4. 2 Warrior builds

Since the quest has parts where a rogue is essential, or a Wizzy is essentil, or bard song is needed, etc...with each leading to a harder path, a dead end or an easier path, depending on fail/success with said puzzle/neutral NPC/device, whatever.

Make the Search skill useful too.

To epic or not to epic.

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