AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Fountains of Purification and their removal

LetumLux wrote:

I request/suggest only one thing to this: perhaps keep one in Arenas. It helps out greatly with testing things (OOCly included, as in looking for bugs, testing new items/scripts, etc) and Resting doesn't cure everything. Arenas are few and far between enough that it would be a hassle for people that wanted to run all the way to one for a free restore.

Arenas are IC areas just as anywhere else. In fact, arenas more than any other areas suffer from an almost innate OOCness that we should combat rather than confirm. Even as a DM, it's akward to do an event in an arena; people seem conditioned to go OOC when their characters stand in what appears to be an arena.

Rather put one in the OOC entry. Or ask a DM to spawn one for you, if you need to test something.

I don't know if this will actually have any more of an impact on PCs that need to be gold-sunk than potions already have, but hey, gold sinks are always welcome.

Kjetta wrote:

Or ask a DM to spawn one for you, if you need to test something.

Shouldn't you be working?

Fair enough, it'll just be a bother to not be able to extensively test stuff without a DM on to assist when it involves status effects, damage and the like. The nice things about games, after all, is not having to spend actual days and weeks of our lives in field testing when we can suspend a bit of disbelief and temporal mechanics to say, "Now go rest up and we'll continue later in the day. *Assume it's later in the day after restoring of vital functions when actually two minutes has passed.* Great, let's continue."

Just puts the "off screen" time characters have to much more effective use when we can cram sessions like that, and assume they're still busy at work when the player is off at their job/sleep/whatever.

That said, I think it's fine. I just don't want to see character convenience and player convenience confused, especially when it comes to things that are mainly OOC, such as widget testing or whatnot. Yes, it can be done ICly and is often very enjoyable when it is, but it still comes down to the player debugging the "behind the scenes" mechanisms and that shouldn't be forced to take all day or lots of expense. Punish the characters all you like, but (pending your beliefs) we players don't have Resurrection or Time Stop.

Mr Mago wrote:

Mathias of Constantinople wrote:

Dark Immolation wrote:

The Illmatarii and Salandran's blessing and healing cleric npc should still remain free, though...

I agree. For a poor, weak new character who cant afford to heal the wounds she has gotten, a pilgrimage to the Salandran temple or the Kohlingen temple, where the wounds would be healed for free, would be fun RP.

A poor, weak new character generally doesn't know of how to get to Kohlingen or the Salandran temple.

And if they can afford the boat to Kohlingen, can't they afford the healing which an NPC provides?

Not to mention you can get there via boat (in which case you can buy the healing) or by walkin (in which case youre not a poor lowbie).

Yurell, did you even read the post you were quoting, before replying to it?

Mr Mago wrote:

Yurell, did you even read the post you were quoting, before replying to it?

My apologies, I was really tired when I posted that. But at least I added the walking bit.

i like the idea of the paid cleric's, but i would also like refusal to heal on certain pc's, i don't see a cleric of Torm healing a follower of Bane, i think things like that should be considered if they have not already. also i think it would be neat if cleric's that matched a pc's dogma might heal for discount or even free.

some thought would have to be put into that though, for example Velsharoon loathes Cyric so i doubt he would healing one of his followers. so the appropriate research would need to be done, if that was to happen, which would be cool, and that would help some poor pc's in getting heals. would be as simple as finding a temple to your god for a free heals, that would encourage more knowledge of Forgotten Realms and Amia plus give some PC's more "faith" in the new system

Stealth_Vicious wrote:

i like the idea of the paid cleric's, but i would also like refusal to heal on certain pc's, i don't see a cleric of Torm healing a follower of Bane, i think things like that should be considered if they have not already. also i think it would be neat if cleric's that matched a pc's dogma might heal for discount or even free.

In point of fact unless they know the name of the person, recognize the person, or the person in question is wearing uniform or colors openly declaring their allegiance to a given faction, there's not a lot of means for them to detect teh faith of another person.

My personal opinion of the overall change is booyah!

DolphinRacer wrote:

Stealth_Vicious wrote:

i like the idea of the paid cleric's, but i would also like refusal to heal on certain pc's, i don't see a cleric of Torm healing a follower of Bane, i think things like that should be considered if they have not already. also i think it would be neat if cleric's that matched a pc's dogma might heal for discount or even free.

In point of fact unless they know the name of the person, recognize the person, or the person in question is wearing uniform or colors openly declaring their allegiance to a given faction, there's not a lot of means for them to detect teh faith of another person.

My personal opinion of the overall change is booyah!

"Clerics act as intermediaries between the earthly and the divine (or infernal) worlds" couldn't the god from which they draw there powers from deny the follower of the rival god?? PC cleric's have the whole for the greater good (or evil) angle for healing such a foe, but an NPC in a town just would do as there god wish's.

Stealth_Vicious wrote:

"Clerics act as intermediaries between the earthly and the divine (or infernal) worlds" couldn't the god from which they draw there powers from deny the follower of the rival god??

As far as I know, no, and even if they could they don't pay that much attention to every single one of their clerics all the time.

Salandra won't refuse healing anything that asks for it. She'll even permit healing undead just to kill the bastards quicker.

A Salandran will go out of their way to help anyone, even a Banite trying to kill them, but the Salandrans also need funds to maintain their huge temple. Lawns don't cut themselves, beds don't get changed on their own and armour isn't forged by growing off trees. To make sure they can help more people in the future, a price needs to be paid which means inevitably a small fee of some sort.

If you want free heals, interact with a Salandran or Illmaterite PC. Most of them are approachable people. If you don't go to the effort, suck it up and deal with the price for being lazy.

Yurell wrote:

Stealth_Vicious wrote:

"Clerics act as intermediaries between the earthly and the divine (or infernal) worlds" couldn't the god from which they draw there powers from deny the follower of the rival god??

As far as I know, no, and even if they could they don't pay that much attention to every single one of their clerics all the time.

"in theory" they could halt the spell, but the odds of them noticing or even caring are approximately Zero.

Galenson wrote:

Salandra won't refuse healing anything that asks for it. She'll even permit healing undead just to kill the bastards quicker.

A Salandran will go out of their way to help anyone, even a Banite trying to kill them, but the Salandrans also need funds to maintain their huge temple. Lawns don't cut themselves, beds don't get changed on their own and armour isn't forged by growing off trees. To make sure they can help more people in the future, a price needs to be paid which means inevitably a small fee of some sort.

If you want free heals, interact with a Salandran or Illmaterite PC. Most of them are approachable people. If you don't go to the effort, suck it up and deal with the price for being lazy.

Frankly, I think the issue of Salandran healers charging a fee violates their code. Blatantly. No matter how you justify it.

The First Duty states that "Salandrans will heal those in need without hesitation..." -asking for money before giving healing is hestitating because you're denying healing until a good or service is provided to you first.

The Second Duty states that "If a Salandran is asked to aid in a matter regarding the healing arts they are duty bound to answer." To then ask monetary before healing assumes that healing would be denied if payment can't be made. Sinful if such occures!

The Fourth Duty states that "Acts of charity and assistance granted to those in need are gifts to Salandra...", so besides not wanthing to refuse or hesistate, it would be an act of charity to heal those who come to them for free and it would be an act of worship to do so. [First Duty "The act of healing is an act of worship."]

YES - Seek PC Healers. This is always going to allow for more RP than looking for an NPC.

But I refuse to think you'll ever justify Salandra's NPC Healer's healing with a fee attached and not becoming "Fallen" for it. The healing is Not OOC.

On top of that, Salandra's Healers are open to EVERY PC. And it is not a starting location either. If somebody goes out to seek a Salandran NPC to heal, they are either trading Gold to Travel, Time to go on Foot, or a Portal Rod Charge. The location of the Temple already sets that it cannot become an unbalancing.

Summary : No fees on Salandra's NPC Healers. This assumes they'll start healing like fountains of purification would. (Which they should!)

Yes, I have a copy of the tenets in front of me.

Quote:

Summary : No fees on Salandra's NPC Healers. This assumes they'll start healing like fountains of purification would. (Which they should!)

Summary: You don't decide deific dogma, no matter how many tenets you have in front of you. We do. And no, they won't heal like the fountains will. (Whether or not they should is up for argument).

It's nice that you play a Salandran but you don't get to decide what's fact about the deity, sorry. Not much of a different way for me to say it.

I don't think it's going to be a problem Torzeng - I doubt that they're going to move Salandran healers everywhere demanding a fee, and the ones at the Temple already heal for free AFAIK.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

Summary : No fees on Salandra's NPC Healers. This assumes they'll start healing like fountains of purification would. (Which they should!)

Summary: You don't decide deific dogma, no matter how many tenets you have in front of you. We do. And no, they won't heal like the fountains will. (Whether or not they should is up for argument).

It's nice that you play a Salandran but you don't get to decide what's fact about the deity, sorry. Not much of a different way for me to say it.

It's fair they are not healing exactly like the fountains. I can't say I've followed this thread perfectly through- I'll understand the changes better once they're happening.

*Points egotistically at signature link.* Yeah, but I feel justified saying I've really studied the wording of the tenets. Granted, what I've written thus-far is on a different topic. But I guarentee now that any Salandra NPC's healing with a fee attached I'm treating OOCly because it just can't be logical. I don't get to make the call in the end but I don't know how else to say that there is more than plenty of reason that if a healer NPC is set at Salandra's temple, it would be free healing.

@Yurell: I honestly don't even remember what the NPC's do besides give a blessing right now. And I'm assuming that Salandra's healers remain only on Salandra's grounds. Each area would have an appropriate healer to assign after all.

Easy fix to the Salandran dogma-breaking heal factor: we won't add the pay-for-healz script to any Salandran NPC.

We'll let you PCs do it. It is your schtick, after all, why would we render you obsolete with your own NPCs?

They can freely heal whomever they can as the dogma sugests, i dont belive it states that they have to do it or free, and im sure they could do it for free, if they didnt mind there temple crumbling to the ground for lack of upkeep.

Quote:

But I guarentee now that any Salandra NPC's healing with a fee attached I'm treating OOCly because it just can't be logical.

Then you're doing it wrong and I'll smack you until you treat it IC like the rest of the world.

TormakSaber wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Stealth_Vicious wrote:

"Clerics act as intermediaries between the earthly and the divine (or infernal) worlds" couldn't the god from which they draw there powers from deny the follower of the rival god??

As far as I know, no, and even if they could they don't pay that much attention to every single one of their clerics all the time.

"in theory" they could halt the spell, but the odds of them noticing or even caring are approximately Zero.

i thought the gods payed a lot more attention to there devoted followers in forgotten realms, or is that just i misconception i have?

That's a lot of devoted followers to watch (thousands upon thousands) and a lot of insignificant healing spells to watch at any given moment. Even the high up deities simply don't have the presence to be able to watch, nor do they even really care, more than likely. They're busy with their own machinations.

They watch who we say they watch and when

They are going to pay more attention to what there paladins are doing or what a clerics intentions are more than whos dealing out healing spells to whome, if they where directly healing an opposed god (not a folloewr but a god) then there would definatly be an element of care.

Healing someone that follows an opposing god however could be seen as a display of the gods power and would be alowed to gain respect or even a conversion of the recieving party.

This is also at our descretion, and the NPC's are charging, they know you lot have money and they want a piece of the pie.

That said, assume they don't pay any attention to their devoted followers, and the ones they do pay attention to are the much-cooler-than-you NPCs in other parts of the world.

That way, if they do take notice of you, it'll be a pleasant surprise.

When was the last time some 'truly in need of a healer' just clicked a fountain to become instantly healed? Never. They're clicking to restore hit points to go out and get beat up again. People who actually take injuries are more than likely RPing it out, and can get a DM to take a Salandran NPC or a PC to fix them up.

I accept the reasoning that NPC Salandrans still need to run a temple and services and whatnot. And I fully submit to the fact that players don't determine the dogma of deities, that's the DMs' job. Period. Yes, it's just a fact. So let's forgoe the fact that the Salandran church could hold auctions, raffles, what have to you to keep their services free and more to the tune of a NG deity...

What I want to ask, hypothetically is this:

A Salandran cleric sees a man badly injured, not dying, but serverely hurt and bleeding pretty bad. He walks over to the man and says "Would you like some healing?". The man yes, "why yes, of course." The Salandran goes "well, that will be X gold, first please. It will go to our church to aid the needy." The man goes "What? I'm not going to pay you to heal me, it doesn't really cost you anything but a prayer!"

The Salandran says "sorry, and may the mother of healing bless you" and walks away.

The man wasn't poor, but refused to pay. He was however in need of healing. Is this an acceptable action for a Salandran, PC or otherwise?

Don't forget that there's one NPC in Cordor who gives free heals at the moment.

The point I'm merely trying to make is that it can be called in the favor of "Yes, they can deny healing based off of practicality and still be within dogma." But... it would seem cheesey. Not wrong, but not really right to justify changing good RP and dogma because we don't want free heals anywhere.

I like what Yoss said. Just don't add the script to the cleric that doles the blessings and healing. If that's the only one that's free on the server, it will not be a big deal. By the time a PC has taken the time to walk, paid to catch the boat(s), pay for carts, or waste a porting charge to get to the Salandran temple, they could have easily just shelled out whatever pittance of gold in whatever town they were in and stayed there to get healed. It's really just more feasible to stay back in their own city at that point.

As far as who should charge, whomever else it makes sense for. Now the Temple of Waukeen, -those- clerics should charge, no if's and's or but's. Their dogma is pretty much to make money by anyway possible, both over and under the table.

Dark Immolation wrote:

The man wasn't poor, but refused to pay. He was however in need of healing. Is this an acceptable action for a Salandran, PC or otherwise?

Doesn't matter. This sounds to be a server-wide decision. Make one exception, you make the floodgates open for all exceptions so its a case of putting your foot down.

Salandrans and Illmaterites may not be crash hot on charging people for their services but for the good of the server it doesn't matter. They will be charging people just like every other NPC cleric on the server.

As I said if you want free heals, interact with a Salandran or Illmaterite PC. If you can't be bothered creating RP then you will pay the price for being lazy. Simple.

Quote:

I like what Yoss said. Just don't add the script to the cleric that doles the blessings and healing. If that's the only one that's free on the server, it will not be a big deal.

Uh, no, Yoss said "Don't let any NPCs in the Salandran Temple heal, period. Then you can't bitch because it offends your perfect sensibilities and demands of how an NPC should act."

If you can't bear the thought of a Salandran or Ilmatarian Cleric asking for money before he helps, then consider the money an OOC device in this case. It's a game, healing doesn't come free. But you shouldn't feel that Clerics go against the values of their gods just because of it.

Quote:

then consider the money an OOC device in this case.

Quote:

Then you're doing it wrong and I'll smack you until you treat it IC like the rest of the world.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

I like what Yoss said. Just don't add the script to the cleric that doles the blessings and healing. If that's the only one that's free on the server, it will not be a big deal.

Uh, no, Yoss said "Don't let any NPCs in the Salandran Temple heal, period. Then you can't bitch because it offends your perfect sensibilities and demands of how an NPC should act."

Correct.

Yeah, why take a quick and painless route when you can make the Clerics of the two healer gods not heal at all? That's way less damaging to IC immersion than assuming "I pay money for the spell effect and not the priest". *cough*

Yossarin wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

I like what Yoss said. Just don't add the script to the cleric that doles the blessings and healing. If that's the only one that's free on the server, it will not be a big deal.

Uh, no, Yoss said "Don't let any NPCs in the Salandran Temple heal, period. Then you can't bitch because it offends your perfect sensibilities and demands of how an NPC should act."

Correct.

Oh. My appologies then.

I like what I said then. But I'm not a DM, just a dreamer, and not a bitcher. And it's not so much an issue of perfect sensibilities and just making basic sense. No ones saying Salandrans don't make money to run their temples some how, but is it really making sense for them to charge for something their god says do anyway? Behind-the-scenes run auctions and whatnot is what I say.

But really, if you have one free healer out in a relatively remote spot, is it really going to completely ruin your whole "Ban healing fountains!/Gold sink for epics" plan? I don't care either way, but I'd rather things make IC sense than OoC sense, but that's my own personal beleif, not the entire server's.

Dark Immolation wrote:

But really, if you have one free healer out in a relatively remote spot, is it really going to completely ruin your whole "Ban healing fountains!/Gold sink for epics" plan?

Yes.

Quote:

I don't care either way, but I'd rather things make IC sense than OoC sense, but that's my own personal beleif, not the entire server's.

It would still make sense, IC and OOC. It just means that in the Salandran Temple, the NPCs either do not have access to amazing healing spells like you PCs, OR, if you prefer a better justification, have already spent them for the day on the zounds of invisible NPCs making pilgrimages to them or staying at their facility. They just don't have anything left for adventurers except selling them medkits, potions, and giving a light blessing.

Therefore, it isn't that the Salandrans are poor healers. It means that they are overworked healers.

The real heals that matter to the playerbase are then in the hands of the PCs. Isn't that what you've always wanted?

It does make Clerical/Healer PCs more valuable if you really NEED free healing.

Honestly, i'd hold off and wait to see what the price is charged for the provided Healing services, and I do have to agree with the whole 'Need to charge for upkeep' analogy and rationale for Salandra's temple as well.

xordae wrote:

Yeah, why take a quick and painless route when you can make the Clerics of the two healer gods not heal at all? That's way less damaging to IC immersion than assuming "I pay money for the spell effect and not the priest". *cough*

That would satisfy me, but I have a habit (and a history!) of making up my own IC explanations for certain obvious OOC mechanics. I really cannot help it. In a way, it is a personal challenge and rather fun, too, because it resembles the brainstorming portion of fiction writing. Drawing connections, plotting cause/effect, etc.

One side of my brain fully acknowledges something that doesn't "jive" as an OOC mechanic so that it doesn't bother me. The other side works to fit it seamlessly into my interpretation of the universe!

Oh well. I should know better than to apply myself diligently to trying to explain and rationalize and suggest and recommend and be sensitive to the concerns raised by the players. Every attempt is like putting a revolver barrel in my mouth and handing the trigger to strangers.

I have a habit of writing off some concerns as just a bit too nitpicky and saying "Well it could just be treated OOC", which is probably a terrible stance to take. You know I didn't mean to diss your idea, Yoss. The original intent was just to say "Whatever will be done, I think both giving freebie heals or making clerics not heal at all means making unnecessary exceptions." If it is said that they charge because of general upkeep and pilgrims for example, that would be perfectly alright.

Of course the big thing is still that PC clerics will now be hot dogs, and that is awesome no matter what.

Last edited by IronAngel on Sat, Sep 26 2009, 8:57 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Paying for clerical services is the norm in the Realms. Never forget that churches are mundane organizations run with the same political and economic interests in mind as any organization.

If you go to church, they don't give you a handful of Bibles to take home, for free. You can't ask the minister to come to your home to perform some ceremonies without compensation. If you go to a charity thing feeding the poor and homeless just because you're too lazy to drive your limo to the nearby five-star restaurant, you're not going to be well-liked. That's not how charity works.

If you have money, you pay. You're literally taking time and spellslots from the priests, something that could have been used to tend to half a dozen of commoners.

It's not at all comparable to finding a grievously wounded man who refuses to pay. This service is a luxury for the rich and famous, something which enables them to go out and have fun, endanger the civilian population and get hurt again. Your local sports club may offer free basketball opportunities for the kids, but they won't pay for a millionaire's skydiving lessons.

Torzeng wrote:

But I guarentee now that any Salandra NPC's healing with a fee attached I'm treating OOCly because it just can't be logical.

Why not treat it as a different take on the dogma than that of your character's?

I mean, it's not like ANY PC or NPC REALLY knows the thoughts of the deities... And I really mean, nobody in Faerun knows exactly what a deity thinks and likes except the deity him/herself. Not even the Chosen ones. All they got are good (and yet better) guesses and interpretations, which each cleric follows as they see fit. Some do it in ordered churches and as their high priest sees fit. There's many ways to go about it.

Just do your own thing and see what comes. If the deity doesn't like what you're doing, you'll Fall. If she's indifferent, you likely don't notice it. If she likes it a lot, you likely won't notice anything out of ordinary either, but might find yourself granted an extra bit of grace.

Very simple, methinks.

Edit: I forgot this... of course all this can be discussed ICly. "Your interpretation sucks, mine is right!" "No, YOUR take on this is heresy!". But yeah, it should be done IC and see what happens. Everything discussed about deities here on the forums may or may not apply to IC happenings. Since the characters don't have a clue either way (except for the good guesses and stuff like "Oh, I did this and didn't lose my spells, must be good!"), it's all moot to argue OOC about it.

Another good thing about this, is that PC's may get more respect for the divine. When the display of power from the gods not comes for free anymore, being a religious PC might be more feasible again.

I mean, seriously, what idiot PC with tons of gold would say 'Im not gonna pay you for casting a stupid spell' if he is seriously hurt and a cleric passes by? If a PC has to be so badass that he does not even fear or respect the gods, well, that is his problem.

Quote:

(except for the good guesses and stuff like "Oh, I did this and didn't lose my spells, must be good!"

This gets really funny when all three do their separate things and all go "But *I* didn't lose my spells!"

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

(except for the good guesses and stuff like "Oh, I did this and didn't lose my spells, must be good!"

This gets really funny when all three do their separate things and all go "But *I* didn't lose my spells!"

Hehe. I'd say it falls under the "deity is indifferent" section.

"Right, well you boys and girls do whatever you think is best here, I'm off for coffee with Ilmater!"

// More a question for DMs but at least in Cordor, is there any likelihood of this being at least partially linked to recently entered proposals and the like?

If you want to avoid heavy spoilers, please PM me.

No, it is not.

// Righto then.

It could be so, if those DMs active in Cordor make it so! We'll find some nice ways to implement the change ICly, too.

But truthfully, I have to be a spoilsport and confess that this change was brought up ages ago, and was simply buried under other matters for a long time. That it happens right now, right here is probably more of a coincidence than anything else.

Maybe it will get people to actually pray at Altars? Use the preacher job to set a altar and only heal those that offer a prayer

The problem I was thinking was more along the lines of being able to -find- a PC cleric if you really need one.

I know har har, find a cleric on Amia, but not everyone plays at the same times when drones of them are all just standing around cordor square giggle-poking whatever angel/demon is bearing their children. I would just hate to see it in rp where a character, (*#^$ their level for a minute) gets refused healing/curing from a cleric of a good-aligned deity because they don't have enough gold for their level to throw in the gold sink.

So my suggestion is this: perhaps make the Salandran/Illmatarii NPC cleric give -1- free heal to a char per reset. By 1, I mean at -any- good aligned temple, that way people just dont hop from one to another. Charging for heals isn't the only way a church makes money, so there's no real reason to say "they have to pay for stuff tooz", and then cite it like it's the only option. Let's err on the side that maybe they can stomach us rich bastards one freebie, out ouf courtousy.

They see people stumble through their doors every day for healing. For a normal commoner, the cleric will go "aww, you poor thing" heal them, and be on their way. The cleric will prolly never seen that commoner again, cuz he's not out adventuring and will not have need of healing every 2 minutes. I dont see it any different where a PC comes shambling in for the first time in a tenday and the cleric says "Ah, here you go. Be blessed." But if the same PC some back in hurt again half an hour later, the cleric will charge, as the person now needs to pay to help with upkeep beyond the "goodness" the church can allow.

Is your suggestion out of principle or out of necessity?

I can accept the "out of principle" thing, but I beg to differ that free healing is a necessity. None of my lowbies have ever had a need to use the pools for healing, and my other characters only ever use them to get rid of level losses. I simply don't have a need for them, because kits and potions aren't expensive at all and lowbies rarely, if ever, get level drained unless it's a very special occasion, such as a DM event. It just isn't possible in those areas where lowbies go!

Once you start getting a real need for full healing, you already got enough money to pay for it. The chances are, you start having plenty of excess cash in your pockets at that stage, too.

And I am probably the lousiest player on the server, in technical sense. I can't build if my life depended on it, I can only solo stuff that gives me 1 XP per kill (and kills ME very often, too). I need to buy a LOT of kits, and I probably spend my precious little gold in the wrong things and not on the things that would make me need less healing in the first place. Plus, I don't have a whole lot of time to play, let alone grind, so none of my characters are particularly rich (on Amia's standards, probably paupers). We're talking of a few hours twice a month here, on average. Occasionally more, most often far less.

Do I have a real need for free healing? None at all, nada.

I just don't believe there is a need for free healing. It's an imagined need, and it seems to come from those people who most certainly have enough money to pay for their heals.

Fountains of Purification and their removal

Who is online