AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The RP Police

The problem with this discussion is that FOR EVIL, is seen only as, to kill or damage people.

FOR EVIL, also includes robbery, undeath, deceit and so on. In the case of create undead the using the spell for evil is fulfilled when the spell comes to effect Defining something as harmful and evil as being harmful, will require you to find what things are considered harmful in the setting and so on.

And please, study the cosmology, particularry Planescape. It is incredibly interesting setting and the aligned outer planes do make sense.(Inner planes: Elemental, positive and negative. Outer Planes: 16 Alignment Absolutes)

My analogy for the alignments being 'elemental' was to explain how something without will can be inherently evil.
It is not not truly elemental, and does not share the interactions of the Elemental and Positive / Negative Energy Planes (i.e. the para-elemental, quasi-elemental and presumably by extension (although I believe not stated) quasi-para-elemental that I know some DMs are quite fond of including in the cosmology).

At any rate, a Plane can be inherently evil aligned without having will, hence my analogy - it makes perfect sense to me, but I communicate somewhat more coherently in this manner.

Oh, and deceit is not so much evil as it is chaotic - the god/evil aspect would likely b handled by context.

Ok, I think we've reached a pretty good conclusion now. I see your points, and I agree with you (Yurell, Cori) on most anything. If we go to semantics, yes, a smaller part of an action can be evil without the entire action begin evil. Personally, I just don't see the point of making that distinction, but would rather pay attention to the end result. You can make the distinction. I'm not sure if casting an evil spell should be equal to creating an evil tool or using an evil tool (because you could argue the spell exists all the time, after it has been first invented; just like a sword after forging), but I don't think it's very interesting either: using undead will taint the exalted nature of your action regardless, because you should opt for good tools if any are available. *shrug* I just see it as a very minor detail, because the true stigma of undeath is the IC abhor.

Did... did we(everyone involved) just conduct a forum based argument on good and evil... and... and reach a general agreement... Quick, lock it! Lock it while it still exists like this.

Yes, I think that was quite well done. I see your point, and it's only one that we disagree upon. Thank you for the discussion.

I must say it was a rather enjoyable read.

Iron wrote:

*snip*using undead will taint the exalted nature of your action regardless, because you should opt for good tools if any are available. *shrug* I just see it as a very minor detail, because the true stigma of undeath is the IC abhor.

Well said.

This is my personal view on things as well. I personally don't care how strictly alignment "rules" are followed, so long as things stay reasonable and to-character. (And of course, preferably IN character as well.)

to my humble recollection you cant summon a good undead and animation of a undead is imo very very evil..

there is a reason why the undead gods are so hated, as for the archliches, they have a very specific task to do, i find them rather irrelevant, as they fdont stray fom that task.

honerstly, apart from the archliches, i dont think any good god allows for thier followers to use undeath, its a strait way to the wall of blabbering people who wants to use mummy dust with thier good wizard..((that was not ment to be offensive))

and devine classes of good gods...well..i think one can guess what would happen..

i actually dont think that there is any neutral gods who allows it either...mystra, the goddess of magic, i belive despises that practise..

and mention one god of undeath whos dogma dosnt read like mein kampf, and reeks of evil..i think that says it all..i could be wrong however..wuldnt be the first time.

as for undeath "being a punishment" as the local lich said..i would like to see where he has gotten that from..cause i guarentee that kelemvor does not let his souls go after he has gotten them, and they have not been accepted into the gods varius versions of the afterlife...unless ofcause they barter to become a devil..but that is another story

A gray guard could summon undead to accomplish a good deed at hand I beleive. He would prolly have to explain it later but Im sure he could get away with it?

GreatPigeon wrote:

A gray guard could summon undead to accomplish a good deed at hand I beleive. He would prolly have to explain it later but Im sure he could get away with it?

A grayguard probably could.
Fortunately (or 'un' so) they aren't in NWN so we won't have to worry about the exact characteristics, since something like that involves very careful study of how far is too far.

The Incognitos wrote:

Did... did we(everyone involved) just conduct a forum based argument on good and evil... and... and reach a general agreement... Quick, lock it! Lock it while it still exists like this.

Yurell wrote:

Yes, I think that was quite well done. I see your point, and it's only one that we disagree upon. Thank you for the discussion.

Yes it was an awesome discussion, i enjoyed it quite a bit. You made some really good points Yurell, it was very well presented.

Kraniumbrud, followers of almost any deity could use, summon and create undead. They could even remain Good if certain conditions were met. (I won't go into specifics again, we just discussed this for a few pages; and it's always up to the DM who happens to be present.) Gods really aren't very petty, and you probably have no fear of being deemed one of the False (who don't go to the Wall, btw) even if you used undead to your heart's content - unless you were a follower of one of the few deities who specifically opposed undeath: Lathander, Kelemvor, and whoever else there is.

so..your telling me as a triad follower or hoar and gods like that...you can summon undead or animate undead..and get away with it?

Basically yes, There was a big philosophical debate about that recently. However what happens ICly is not always what is true, but I could probably raise the dead as a priestess of Torm, and as long as I am doing good and keeping to Torm's laws, I will keep my cleric abilities. However it is up to the DMs Ultimately.

Can't answer that. Only the gods know, and they aren't telling you.

Most gods probably wouldn't care, if you were a good follower otherwise. They just want your worship points. Besides, Hoarites can create Revenants, and a Tormite paladin order is allowed to use existing undead for good causes before destroying them. And these are supposed to be the "extreme" cases. Your everyday lay worshiper probably doesn't even know the entire dogma of his patron, let alone adhere to more than 25% of it.

Iron, I thought that all the dogma's were known by people? With clerics preaching the dogma. So that isn't exactly true?

I dont think any regular cleric or paladin could get away with it by his clergy or fellow followers, remember clerics are a political bunch, most try to rise above each other, and any small question of their faith would impede that.

And most good aligned clerics would probably feel sickened by the site of an undead, and without practice would probabluy screw up an animate spell.. I dont see cleric spells as right out of a spell book. I see them as incantations/prayers that do certain things,

A gray guard is specifically outside of the normal rules and policies once reaching a certain rank. But I still think that something as serious as summoning undead would make the grayguard meet a inquisition panel of sort.

Remember because gray guards are on the edge all the time, they are constantly being crticized and watched carefully by the members of its own clergy. I wouldnt be suprised if Torm/Helm/etc and the others who have chapters of gray guards, public or not, might have members specifically follow the gray guards adn track their abilities and deeds.

just checking

Last edited by IronAngel on Wed, Aug 12 2009, 15:02 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Herkles: I wouldn't know, but I guess they're not necessarily codified anywhere IC like they are summed up in F&P. That reeks OC, and isn't the case with any real-world religion either. I bet the dogmas in the books are just summaries for players, and the contents are pretty much what priests preach. What it's actually based on would be several large writings. Take Malar, for example: the bit about healing sick animals is actually a decree given by a certain priest of Malar at a certain point in time, and was never given by Malar as a "quick summary" for the lazy theologer.

But you need to remember, a typical person in the Realms hasn't even met a priest of most of the gods, let alone hear one preach. They might very well be a follower of Tymora, just knowing she's the Lady Luck, without knowing anything of her church order or much of the loads of theology that's been written about her faith.

herkles wrote:

Iron, I thought that all the dogma's were known by people? With clerics preaching the dogma. So that isn't exactly true?

Ive always thought of it as this, how many people of any religion do you know who dont adhere to the dogma? Lets not turn this into religious debate, but some people who claim religions, are baffled by facts.

And Im not talking about a smug person who memorizes one verse that seems out of place, I mean basic tenets of the faith/dogma, whatever. Even some followers dont know it. Its to be expected, seminary is 4 years and its essentially 4 years studying 1 book.

Clerics think of them the same way, not everyone is a fanatic, most peopel probably worship 20+ gods, but dont know their specific details of dogma, probably just the portfolio.

Im by no means a lore monkey, but I do possess a fair amount of common sense.

That is intresting to note iron. I have seen that quite often IG with people reciting the dogma as if it was common knowledge. Lolth's dogma, Eilistraee's dogma, Torm's dogma and so forth. I have seen people recite as if it is common knowledge.

Well, a lot of it probably is, to people who're somewhat familiar with the gods. Most common people aren't familiar with most gods, however, and I think it's pretty silly to assume you can reduce the dogma to a universal, canonized "summary" like the ones presented in the books.

Of course, there's a different between cosmopolitan adventurers who've met devout followers of many unusual gods and, all in all, are much better educated than your typical Dalesman or Waterdhavian stonemason.

But no doubt, PCs on Amia usually know way too much. No need to take pot shots at them because of it, though. People often just don't think too much about this stuff, and it's pretty difficult to imagine what religion would be like in the everyday life of a completely alien fantasy world like the Realms.

I don't see it as in all cases having complete knowledge, but enough to get by or make presumptions, really.

I couldn't tell you much abotu the Muslim faith but I am aware their holy book is the Quran, and they live on five core princples or Pillars, one of which is the Hajj, an at least once in a life time pilgramage they must make to Mecca a holy site of significance in their faith.

I agree with you there iron, that in general amians know far more than they normally would in the FR.

Adventurers, anywhere from 30-100+ lore/spellcraft, etc etc

Iron wrote:

But you need to remember, a typical person in the Realms hasn't even met a priest of most of the gods, let alone hear one preach. They might very well be a follower of Tymora, just knowing she's the Lady Luck, without knowing anything of her church order or much of the loads of theology that's been written about her faith.

This is how I play most of my pc's. They know of a handful of gods, for whom I think it's appropriate for them to know. But they don't know even the names of ~all~ of the gods. Tymora, for example, I figure is a goddess most everyone would likely know the basics of. She's the one to call on for good luck. That's what I do - call on her for good luck. But except for my pc's have good reason to know more, the rest know nothing except Tymora = good luck.

Just last night while playing a new pc, I saw a drow, and commented on the fact they are on the surface. The response was "Do you know Eillistrae(sp?)?", to which I responded "No, why should I? Who is that?"

And then was educated through rp. Lack of omnipotent knowledge tends to make for much better rp than having the omnipotent knowledge (not to mention resource books) that we as players actually do.

Oh, Iron - epic siggy.

I agree ^^

And Im lucky to be ignorant as hell when it comes to all the lore and backlore, so my pcs are kinda like.. whu? Except for the few major ones, my orc guy worshipped an orc god, not cause he loved the dogma, but because he was an orc god.

Most of my characters know the main gods, the gods their race is associated with, and any gods of particular cause to a goal they champion.

Say Tempus for example. Calin has above then average knowledge on Tempus, The Red Knight & Garagos. He then has roughly average knowledge on possible allies, Hoar, Torm, Bane, Kelemvor and a few others. Of enemies he knows what they stand against and the names of there gods usually. Shar, Mask, Cyric, Malar, Lolth Etc Etc. He also has knowledge of these gods in what actions he has seen their worshippers take. Be this aggression against someone a particular ideal, or hatred against a particular race.

With magic it's much along the lines of "I know what I see, or what I'm attacked with". Past experiences being the extent of his knowledge. So if he spents the last 27 levels only ever seeing a stoneskin spell cast on himself, he assumes it can't be cast on enemies. Which is false, since I've seen it used on other characters to trap in harmful corpse gases. *Snicker Snort*

herkles wrote:

Iron, I thought that all the dogma's were known by people? With clerics preaching the dogma. So that isn't exactly true?

I'd be inclined to point out that every-day follower is not your high-level cleric walking about. In order to become a high level cleric you'd need to know this stuff (or at least high ranking if you're deity doesn't mind brawn).

GreatPigeon wrote:

herkles wrote:

Iron, I thought that all the dogma's were known by people? With clerics preaching the dogma. So that isn't exactly true?

Ive always thought of it as this, how many people of any religion do you know who dont adhere to the dogma?

Not exactly a fair comparison - how many gods do you have empirical evidence of being real, and by empirical I mean numerous clerics performing miracles routinely?

GreatPigeon wrote:

Clerics think of them the same way, not everyone is a fanatic, most peopel probably worship 20+ gods, but dont know their specific details of dogma, probably just the portfolio.

I'd agree with you here - the vast majority of the populace simply don't care, other than simple reasonings like "Long see travel => Donation to Umberlee"

IronAngel wrote:

But no doubt, PCs on Amia usually know way too much. No need to take pot shots at them because of it, though. People often just don't think too much about this stuff, and it's pretty difficult to imagine what religion would be like in the everyday life of a completely alien fantasy world like the Realms.

Well, most of the clerics in Amia, if you moved them anywhere else in Faerun, would likely be heading toward High-Priesthood, if not the head of a Temple simply because of their level - I'd expect a fai amount of knowledge.

TormakSaber wrote:

Adventurers, anywhere from 30-100+ lore/spellcraft, etc etc

I'm inclined to agree with this - what Knowledge check can't be passed with 100+ knowledge in that field?

GreatPigeon wrote:

I agree ^^

And Im lucky to be ignorant as hell when it comes to all the lore and backlore, so my pcs are kinda like.. whu? Except for the few major ones, my orc guy worshipped an orc god, not cause he loved the dogma, but because he was an orc god.

I'd like to use my dwarf as an example here - surface drow are rare everywhere else, and since she's only seen two she never expects any armoured elf to e anything but an armoured elf. Likewise, she is rather ignorant of all the gods, and knows enough to just worship the dwarven pantheon.

I don't think it's fair to do a direct jump of a character from Amia to Faerun. Amia is fast leveling, overly magic and typically not likely to ever exist in the Faerunian universe. It's to insanely easy to be mr Super Power. I imagine that if it did exist, every hero would come to Amia for a few years, then go back to Faerun and wage war.

As far as I am concerned, you drop 20 or more levels when leaving Amia to the Mainland.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

I don't think it's fair to do a direct jump of a character from Amia to Faerun. Amia is fast leveling, overly magic and typically not likely to ever exist in the Faerunian universe. It's to insanely easy to be mr Super Power. I imagine that if it did exist, every hero would come to Amia for a few years, then go back to Faerun and wage war.

As far as I am concerned, you drop 20 or more levels when leaving Amia to the Mainland.

My chars have been to Khem, which is inside the Mainland (internal waters) and didn't lose 20 levels. The fact that casters can cast certain spell also points to the fact tat they are twenty levels lower.

It's not really a discussion for this topic, but my stance is firm and has been repeated numerous times: things in Amia's Forgotten Realms are scaled according to our power level, and as such everyone in the mainland is higher level than the books suggest. The canon Realms is a completely different world, so it's not a matter of Amia vs. Mainland, but rather a difference between two alternate realities.

GreatPigeon made a good point, and I don't think it has much to do with empirical evidence of the gods. There are many people who genuinely believe they're Christian, particularly a certain branch of Christianity, but they're actually quite ignorant or mistaken of many basic tenets of their faith. I mean, how many Lutherans actually know, let alone accept, Martin Luther's solution to the Theodicy problem? I've been Lutheran all my life, and it took me twenty years to begin to grasp the basics of Luther's original theology. And I'm a bookworm interested in a very unpopular field.

I'd say that the vast majority of worshipers understands only the basics of their gods, mostly matters concerning daily life and the central portfolios of the deities. Understanding the entire dogma, its history and developement, as well as the relevant interpretations today, would be a matter for theologers, who usually are high level priests. I imagine clerics study theology more and more as they advance in level, but especially clerics of some savage deities might not be experts in the field.

IronAngel wrote:

I'd say that the vast majority of worshipers understands only the basics of their gods, mostly matters concerning daily life and the central portfolios of the deities. Understanding the entire dogma, its history and developement, as well as the relevant interpretations today, would be a matter for theologers, who usually are high level priests. I imagine clerics study theology more and more as they advance in level, but especially clerics of some savage deities might not be experts in the field.

I agree with that - as I stated before, most people would barely know which god to go to when they needed something beyond standard daily rituals. Clerics however I would expect to know - maybe not Adepts or whatever the NPC class is, but Clerics should know a lot.

Yurell wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

I don't think it's fair to do a direct jump of a character from Amia to Faerun. Amia is fast leveling, overly magic and typically not likely to ever exist in the Faerunian universe. It's to insanely easy to be mr Super Power. I imagine that if it did exist, every hero would come to Amia for a few years, then go back to Faerun and wage war.

As far as I am concerned, you drop 20 or more levels when leaving Amia to the Mainland.

My chars have been to Khem, which is inside the Mainland (internal waters) and didn't lose 20 levels. The fact that casters can cast certain spell also points to the fact tat they are twenty levels lower.

You know what I mean. Don't be a nitpicker.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

I don't think it's fair to do a direct jump of a character from Amia to Faerun. Amia is fast leveling, overly magic and typically not likely to ever exist in the Faerunian universe. It's to insanely easy to be mr Super Power. I imagine that if it did exist, every hero would come to Amia for a few years, then go back to Faerun and wage war.

As far as I am concerned, you drop 20 or more levels when leaving Amia to the Mainland.

My chars have been to Khem, which is inside the Mainland (internal waters) and didn't lose 20 levels. The fact that casters can cast certain spell also points to the fact tat they are twenty levels lower.

You know what I mean. Don't be a nitpicker.

As I see it, scaling works by scaling the environment up, not the characters down

Yurell wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

You know what I mean. Don't be a nitpicker.

As I see it, scaling works by scaling the environment up, not the characters down

Fact is, you know what I meant. Outside of Amia, a character is less likely to be even slightly near as powerful as they are here. I don't think it should be up, because to be honest, it doesn't fit with the landscape and such going on in the mainland. If it was up, half of faerun would probably be in ashes from epic magic war's going on, and certainly the cities, technological advancement and general outlay of the land would be greatly changed given that every major power has level 40 wizards <_<.

I'd say, it's basically both. We scaled the environment up on Amia. But we aren't the rest of Faerun that isn't represented in Amia. To equalise your character with the rest of Faerun, were you to ever "leave" Amia, you'd have to scale the pc down, or else become a diety (or damned close to one).

Cori wrote:

I'd say, it's basically both. We scaled the environment up on Amia. But we aren't the rest of Faerun that isn't represented in Amia. To equalise your character with the rest of Faerun, were you to ever "leave" Amia, you'd have to scale the pc down, or else become a diety (or damned close to one).

When you have a new encounter, do you a) Make the enemies level up to provide the challenge or b) Delevel the PCs to provide the challenge?

The rest of the universe scales - why is it that one part of the Abyss is hyperpowered? That one island in the middle of the Mainland? The former could easily access its Abyssal neighbours, whilst the latter has very easy access to the mainland.
It makes more sense to scale up the entire world than to just remove levels. Removing twenty levels, for example, from a lvl 5 would kill them instantly. Or does that only kick in at level 21? In which case a level 5 leaves Amia and is stronger (or just as strong) as someone who has been training for years more?

I agree with Selvec, when leaving the Island The PC should be played as the usual High leveled Adventurer(like most of the characters in Forgotten realms books) ,Not a hell ball hurling Demigod!

For all intents and purposes, there is no Amia, in Faerun. We're an alternate reality. So it's not equal to say "why is that one part of the abyss hyperpowered".

We...at least I, am not talking about travel to the mainland theoretically, in Amian RP, but rather comparison to established Faerun.

Cori wrote:

For all intents and purposes, there is no Amia, in Faerun. We're an alternate reality. So it's not equal to say "why is that one part of the abyss hyperpowered".

We...at least I, am not talking about travel to the mainland theoretically, in Amian RP, but rather comparison to established Faerun.

To me Amia-Faerun is a different world - the campaign is more high powered, so so is the world. All the relevant lore and canon happened, but the power of everything involved has been dialled up to 11.

People - the DM's are the ones that detail and decide on the actual campaign stuff.

This is why it's called a campaign system... it allows for an incredible amount of customization and imagination by the DM(s).

Hence, trying to compare "STOCK" FR toril to Amia's "CUSTOM" Toril is destined to fail.

Regards,

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

Hence, trying to compare "STOCK" FR toril to Amia's "CUSTOM" Toril is destined to fail.

That's what I'm trying to say - it is a different world.

Does anyone play a character that knows nothing about gods dogma aside from rudimentary "oh, you mean the girly who loves money?" or "You're them crazed buggers that want to kill everyone you decide is evil(most gods)?"

Does anyone play a PC with no patron who thinks it's all a load of garbage and priests are just 'mad' sorcerers? I only ask for OOC interest.

The Incognitos wrote:

Does anyone play a character that knows nothing about gods dogma aside from rudimentary "oh, you mean the girly who loves money?" or "You're them crazed buggers that want to kill everyone you decide is evil(most gods)?"

My dwarf knows the dwarf pantheon alright, but the Faerunian pantheon is split amongst gods that all she knows about are 'like' and 'don't like'

Archlich

Source

While the overwhelming majority of liches are evil, an archlich is not.

One such good lich is Lady Alathene Moonstar of Waterdeep. Lady Alathene is devoted to hunting down her brother Lord Vanrak who has become a murderous undead champion of evil. Archliches are able to memorize spells through intuitive nature and do not need spellbooks; they also remain in their form for eternity. An elven archlich is called a Baelnorn.

They do not use phylacteries as their undeath is gifted to them by the Seldarine.

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

Archlich

Source

While the overwhelming majority of liches are evil, an archlich is not.

One such good lich is Lady Alathene Moonstar of Waterdeep. Lady Alathene is devoted to hunting down her brother Lord Vanrak who has become a murderous undead champion of evil. Archliches are able to memorize spells through intuitive nature and do not need spellbooks; they also remain in their form for eternity. An elven archlich is called a Baelnorn.

They do not use phylacteries as their undeath is gifted to them by the Seldarine.

"They do not use phylacteries" refers to Baelnorns specifically, mind. Not all Archliches. You can find Archliches properly introduced in Monsters of Faerûn.

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

An elven archlich is called a Baelnorn.

]They do not use phylacteries as their undeath is gifted to them by the Seldarine.[/size]

The baelnorn, always such a joke.

The Incognitos wrote:

Does anyone play a character that knows nothing about gods dogma aside from rudimentary "oh, you mean the girly who loves money?" or "You're them crazed buggers that want to kill everyone you decide is evil(most gods)?"

Does anyone play a PC with no patron who thinks it's all a load of garbage and priests are just 'mad' sorcerers? I only ask for OOC interest.

I play one of each, sort of. Lila knows a hand ful of gods, and generally kinda.. pretends she knows the rest, and just nods and smiles. She actually tends to get away with it, it mostly spawned from my initial lack of knowledge.

Another secretish char of mine doesn't think it's fake, she just has no patron and doesn't see the point in it, thinks it's a waste of time and kinda a ploy for the churches/gods to get money.

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