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I still can't remember what that's from...
Anyway
I was wondering, which is stronger in terms of arcane power, Wizards or Sorcerers? This is a pretty open question, so I'm aiming for some discussion about it to get as much insight as possible. Thanks peeps.

Both arcane classes have their strengths and weaknesses. A wizard is generally more versatile (considering that you can learn every spell out there, if you find a scroll containing it), while the sorcerer is more rigid, from the choice of spells view, he is also more flexible by being able to cast what spell he needs, without having to memorize it beforehand.

Personally, I'd prefer a wizard, for the ton of skill points you get. Plus, having more spells from which to chose is interesting, in the sense that you can try out new spells when you grow bored with the same old 'most efficient spells'.

Build-wise... it depends what you're looking for. Both classes are very good in PvP (provided the player behind them has a bit of experience), and at least decent in PvM. With a sorcerer you can go sorc/rogue/BG for high AC and saves, while with a wizard you can only get wiz/rogue for the UMD, tumble, and other goodies. Personally, I see multiclassing wizards as a crime that deserves capital punishment... but that's beside the point.

Thanks for the quick reply... I've never really liked sorcerers myself... I'll probably make a wizard.
Thank ye

Powerwise an evil aligned pure sorcerer is lé beefycheese. But I like to stick to my own belief that an extremely well played Wizard could beat an extremely well played Sorcerer.

Oye! Wizard/rogue with skill points in search, disable trap, open locks etc and with burglar job is awesome. Wizardy thieves rock. *pouts*

RP-wise, sorcerers can never be as powerful as wizards. The most powerful beings in the world are wizards. (Well, Simbul is sorc/wiz/archmage.)

As has already been mentioned, the Sorc's strength is in being able to cast any Spell he knows at any time and they also get more Spells per day... but that's about it. Wizards can also choose to Specialise which means the number of Spells per day difference between them is only one rather than two.

From a pure power perspective a pure Wizard wins any comparison hands down simply because they can get Epic Spell Focus in more Schools than a pure Sorc can (which also translates, if desired, into more Epic Spells on Amia). OR they can choose to take, for example, Epic Still Spell III and still have more Spell Focus feats than a Sorc. OR the Wizard may choose to spend his extra pre-Epic Feats on something like Arcane Defence and still have Feats left over to take the exact same Feats as the Sorc - if both PCs have a full duration EDK (which requires ESF: Conjuration) this would mean that the Wizard could Wail with +6 more DC than the Sorc who is trying to cast Wail on the Wizard at a -2 DC penalty (even if they both have Mummy Dust (ESF Necro), and therefore both have the same +6 DC Wail, the Sorc would still be getting the -2 DC Penalty when casting on the Wizard).

A Sorc is more versatile on the move, but a Wizard is more flexible overall.

biggest difference between sorcs and wizards is spells known, and number of times they can cast spells between rests. Wizards get to memorize 4 spells from each page of magic that they can cast after resting (4 lvl 1 spells, 4 lvl 2 spells, etc). But the selection they have is effectively every spell in the game once you learn them. They can only cast 4 spells, but it's any 4 spells they want.

Sorcerers get to cast 6 spells from each lvl (6 lvl 1 spells, 6 lvl 2 spells, etc.). They do not need to memorize spells like a wizard does, they can cast 3 mage armors, and 3 magic missiles from page 1 spells, or they could cast 6 magic missiles. They can cast any of their spells that they know at any time, but once theyve cast 6 of them theyre out of magic until they rest again. The downside to a sorcerer is the number of spells they know. You pick 3 spells from pages 6,7,8, and 9. Those are the only spells you can ever cast. You have more versatility with the spells you do know, and can cast them more often, but you can never cast anything other than those 3 spells you picked

Hm. I suppose by versatility and sheer known amount of known epicness, (sadly), wizards win.

But it depends on your definition of power. In terms of sheer magical force, I'd dare to say sorceror. There's no PnP rules about it from what I remember, but I'd think sorcerors since their power is regulated through emotion and not a set number of memorized spells, could unleash more power at one time.

Maybe in the heat of RP/anger/danger, a sorc could unleash all of his spells of X at once, eh? Blast out all 7 of his IGMS at once to save the world! Hah, I'm sure there's some Weave-mechanical reason that can't happen, but still, that's why I'd think sorc would be more powerful in terms of sheer destruction.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Hm. I suppose by versatility and sheer known amount of known epicness, (sadly), wizards win.

on amia especially, where some epic spells have been modified to be affected by feats. Wizards get 4 more feats than sorcs do. And Int is the modifier for skill points. Wizards are the only class that rivals the rogues with the amount of skill points they get. You'll have plenty of skill points to sink into something just for rp flavor. Which is why wizards are generally thought of as the crafters, all those extra feats to take brew potion and craft wand, and the extra skill points to sink into craft armor and weapons. All my wizards have always had a maxxed heal skill.

In NWN:

PvP? Sorc.

RP? Wizard, by a looooooooooooooonnnnnnnng shot.

NwN doesn't give the wizards the true gamut of spells they have available to them, kind of marginalizing the sorcerer's penalty comparatively.

Casting a spell still requires one to perform the necessary gestures, use the necessary material component or speak the necessary words. So, to put it simply, there is no way anyone could cast more than one spell at a time. RP-wise, that is. Mechanic-wise... same deal, for different reasons.

Dwagin wrote:

In NWN:

PvP? Sorc.

RP? Wizard, by a looooooooooooooonnnnnnnng shot.

NwN doesn't give the wizards the true gamut of spells they have available to them, kind of marginalizing the sorcerer's penalty comparatively.

i actually disagree with this, for two reasons. The first is that it is possible to learn all the spells. My wizard is missing all but a handful of spells from having a complete spellbook. She's been trading and bartering for spells she doesnt know for weeks, and it's almost complete.

Second, being able to cast 3 spells an extra 2 times doesnt win most of the time in pvp. Anyone with a single stack of heal potions can outheal the sorc spamming IGMS, spamming spells is not what wins in a good pvp fight, and so having the extra two spells to spam does not make a huge difference. The wizard however, will have spells in their repertoire that a sorc wont, because the sorc only gets 3 spells known per lvl for the higher tier spells. Wizards can prepare a couple spells for dealing with the imp evasion rogues, a couple for the clerics, a couple for the dev critters, a couple for other mages. In the end the wizards repertoire allows them to be better prepared against all threats, not just the same 3 spells and hope they work for every situation

That being said, the better pvper will be the one who wins, talent can and will outshine any edge a specific class might have against another class. That being said, i think a well equipped well prepared wizard starts on better footing than a sorc

Well, to be fair: if the Sorc is built for PvP, the wizard's larger repertoire doesn't matter. The Sorc will already have every spell he's going to need.

IronAngel wrote:

Well, to be fair: if the Sorc is built for PvP, the wizard's larger repertoire doesn't matter. The Sorc will already have every spell he's going to need.

Thats very true and a good point. I was thinking more along the lines of just a generic sorc vrs wizard. If your planning on alot of pvp, when you take your final sorc lvl you can pick spells that while may suck in pvm, work well in pvp.

Yes, but with advantages usually come disadvantages. A PvP-built sorcerer won't be much to look at in PvM. However, it has already been stated: the better pvper (player) will be the one who wins. The PC can be a sorc, or a wiz, in the end the player matters the most.

I loooooooooooove Wizards. Funny enough, I don't play one at the moment, but that's besides the point. Wizards are smarter and more powerful than a Sorcerer. In PnP, that is. On NWN, it's sad, but Sorcerers are stronger. Though, that isn't to say that if you learn your Wizard well enough, you can't beat the snot out of Sorcerers. It's just harder, is all. I still refuse to play Sorcerers though

. I stick to Wizards because I love'em!

IronAngel wrote:

Well, to be fair: if the Sorc is built for PvP, the wizard's larger repertoire doesn't matter. The Sorc will already have every spell he's going to need.

Yeah, in NWN.
I just love how it goes in PnP - if a Wizard knows he's going to be fighting a sorc in advance, unless the Sorc is built to be a Wizard-killer, the Sorc doesn't stand a chance.
This would be avoiding exploits, of course.

But mostly, in PnP I'd much prefer a wizard because a good wizard player will be chaining disabling spells and multitudinous buffs like crazy to make encounters two or three levels too high seem like a breeze. Sad is the wizard damage-cannon.

This is a very good link if you're playinga wizard in PnP.

Lore-wise Wizards are hands down the strongest of the two arcane classes.... that being said, however.....

In a normal PvP encounter a sorc is going to completely pwn the wiz. Here's the reason... yes, the wizard is capable of having access to every spell in the game, but odds are he has sets of spells he memorizes for different occasions. If out and about doing some hunting, the wiz most likely won't have a full set of PvP spells memorized. A sorc, only having access to so many spells will have his PvP spells at hand and only a click away.

But, the Master Cow hasn't weighed in yet... his is the final word on the subject.

Whoever gets off the timestop-mords-bigby or something similar first I guess.

Wizards and Sorcerers are of equal power on Amia.

Both in PvP and PvM.

People have become blinded by the Sorc / BG (or Paladin) / Rogue (or monk, or bard) powerbuilds.

But in reality, you can make just as powerful builds with wizards.

The equipment on Amia evens out the extra spells sorcerers get.

Thanks for all the input everyone, It's really helpful

Yurell wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

Well, to be fair: if the Sorc is built for PvP, the wizard's larger repertoire doesn't matter. The Sorc will already have every spell he's going to need.

Yeah, in NWN.
I just love how it goes in PnP - if a Wizard knows he's going to be fighting a sorc in advance, unless the Sorc is built to be a Wizard-killer, the Sorc doesn't stand a chance.
This would be avoiding exploits, of course.

But mostly, in PnP I'd much prefer a wizard because a good wizard player will be chaining disabling spells and multitudinous buffs like crazy to make encounters two or three levels too high seem like a breeze. Sad is the wizard damage-cannon.

This is a very good link if you're playinga wizard in PnP.

in pnp a wizard that focuses on doing damage isnt doing it right

Omg! Not the Wizard Vs Sorcerer argument! Not again! *Runs away*
(Btw, Sorcerers are WAY better!

)

Oops, I didn't mean to start a shitstorm... I hope the debating doesn't get too out of hand, If it does then you peeps can run along and make your own thread and I will bury this one (or rather ask a DM to bury it for me)

Im a fan of sorcs cause im lazy to change spells to each situation. And a proper wizard doesnt have time to go out running around doing whatever...

I always thought wizard -> stuffy old bastard with books disdains practicing the spells and knows everythign about everything

Sorceror-> cool, does wtf he wants and looks cool doing it!

My perception of Wizards and Sorcs is heavily informed by an rpg I played in the late 80s, shame I don't remember what it was called.

The way it worked there was this (using NWN2 because NWN1 doesn't cover it):

Wizard - Mainly the crafter and problem-solver of the arcane classes. He can cast any arcane spell. Basically, if you need something done he can do it. While he can cast any arcane spell he isn't specialised in any so Sorc's and Warlocks are stronger with their respective magics. He gets something like a cat for a familiar.

Sorceror - The damage dealer. He is a master of evocation and enchantment magic (mind affecting, not weapon buffs) and cannot learn crafting skills or more complex magic. Want something blown up? This is your guy. He is very similar to NWN2's Warlock except that he casts arcane spells rather than having a limited set of Invocations. he gets a more powerful familiar, more like a Druid's Animal Companion.

Warlock - This guy would be cross between a battle Cleric and NWN1 (or melee FS in NWN2) and the Eldritch Knight in NWN2. He is an arcane caster with a focus in melee that specialises in buffing himself and conjuring nasty beasties to devour his enemies. This guy gets a combat mount. Riding into battle on the back of a giant panther and chopping people's heads off while you throw disabling spells around and conjure up a wyvern is fun!

So... yeah, that's the way they should work in my romantic view - the Wizard can do anything where the Sorc is focused on, and excels at, evocation.

Sorceror as damage dealer only works in computer games that are designed to be possible as single-player. In PnP a damage-caster is a very sad sign.

I like counter spelling sorc's with a wizard. The likelyhood of them ever getting off one spell is zero to nil. Meanwhile your dev critting friend wipes the floor with the other melee guys and the mage.

Always fun, but they have more spells so you cant keep it up forever.

NWN doesn't support the neccessary prestige classes or the specialist wizard concept for the Wizard to shine.

Without question, on nwn the award goes to sorcerors.

*huggles his many sorcerors*

I used to love wizards....then I discovered sorcerors.

p.s. if you don't know how to play a wizzy/sorc too well, then start with a wizzy to learn all the spells and what they do because on a sorceror, you need to pick the most useful ones to suit you/and your build.

I miss the utility, knowledge, and every perk of massive int that a wizard gets too much to play a sorcerer, I tried, I just can't.

So its 50/50.... make what you want and tell the world to piss off!

If I play a sorc I always make him gay and a clothing designer.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

I like counter spelling sorc's with a wizard. The likelyhood of them ever getting off one spell is zero to nil. Meanwhile your dev critting friend wipes the floor with the other melee guys and the mage.

Actually, in my experience, Sorc's are the kings of counterspelling. A wizard's number of counterspells is determined by the number of Mord's, greater dispells, etc they set for that day. If they set 2 Mords/dispels and end up needing 3 counterspells, they're screwed. No more counterspelly. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the counterspelling game:

:arrow:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Counterspell

I didn't feel like explaining it all. Anyway, for a Sorc with 7 lv 9 spots, its just as if they had "slotted" 7 Mords.... as well as 7 of two other rank 9 spells. Anyway, an enemy mage casts 2 spells, they have 2 counterspells and 5 9's left over. Enemy casts 7 spells, then it's all good, just as if they had 7 Mords all the time. In truth, a sorcerer can out-counterspell any wizard who isn't set up to counterspell that day.

In fact, with my spellsword who's caster class is sorc, that's a favorite game he'd play with pure wizards. "*counterspell, counterspell, counterspell, counterspell*... You done now? *Melee-bash ftw*".

I did not know that about the mords and shite. Interesting. Lame as all hell since it ruins the fun of counterspelling, but interesting. I haven't read much on counterspelling in PnP, but it sounds like another bioware lamesauce idea. Could be wrong of course.

As I said, nwn doesn't support wizards very well. Specialist wizarding doesn't work and it doesn't have the relative prestige classes to boost the wizard's power. Mixed with the fact that being intelligence based a wizard's not that great to cross class (especially when the only wizard prestige class, the pale master, doesn't increase spells per level/day) makes sorceror the hands down winner of the competition in a wizard vs sorceror fight.

On nwn2 though, it's clearly a different ball game. Specialist wizarding is actually possible (because it works) and there's a huge range of prestige classes that directly support the wizard rather then the sorceror. Sorcerors don't get as much flexibility with their spellbooks either (you can only change 1 spell per 2 levels meaning you have to think VERY carefully about what spells you need in the long run) so it evens the playing field to make wizards one of the most powerful classes in the game.

In short, wizards in nwn are only good for having any spell at the right occasion. In nwn2, they're much better supported and can be far stronger work horses then sorcerors if the player behind it knows what they're doing.

also, the book of transmutation on amia is a bigger boost to Sorcerers then to Wizards.

Wizards gained a limitted amount of inter-rest flexibility, sorcerers gained a new spell with each page.

I feel a wee stronger naow

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