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Yurell
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 Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 11:04 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Gradea wrote: ILoveIceCream wrote: if someone's going to cast a hostile spell at my character....my SR would eat it...that simple....just like it eats every other spell casted half the time. All I ask for is a fair chance. Someone casts light on me fine....give me the chance to resist it like I rest Wail of the Banshee and everyother offensive spell. If then said light actually does effect me, then I won't HIPS. It's borderline godgaming by having light have such an effect when it doesn't take account into the factors that could stop it. if someone is going to godgame against me...then fine, I'll godgame back and just HIPS spam away. Funny you should mention a fair chance. All I want is a fair chance for any of my characters who have a bad tendency to run into shadow dancers who say "I R Evil you die now!"...Lets see, I've had twelve cases of that. Out of the 13 times I've been PvPed without reason. To be fair, that is an argument against being an arsehole and cheating rather than against HiPS.
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Infernal_Pain
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 12:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Location: In an armchair, stroking a cat
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Unless, being able to HiPS correlates with arseholiness.
LULWUT???!!
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Krimmor Nurad ~ Master of Greed
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IronAngel
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 13:39 PM |
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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belgianbonzai wrote: Xaviera wrote: Script a 5th-7th level small AoE spell that kicks the SD out of HiPS for 30 sec if he fails a save or DC check and replaces it with Imp Invis for the same amount of time  Sunburst and sunbeam (for clerics) BOT page: mass light, collosal range. All items touched start to glow, every equiped item on PC's hit by the spell starts to glow with bright light. No save, no resistance even if resistance would work the surroundings are still lit up like the eifel tower 2 seconds after the new year countdown ended so you're still in a damn bright bubble and since everything is glowing brighly... no shadows I wonder if that's doable. Would be awesome. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Silvarus
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 13:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
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IronAngel wrote: belgianbonzai wrote: Xaviera wrote: Script a 5th-7th level small AoE spell that kicks the SD out of HiPS for 30 sec if he fails a save or DC check and replaces it with Imp Invis for the same amount of time Sunburst and sunbeam (for clerics) BOT page: mass light, collosal range. All items touched start to glow, every equiped item on PC's hit by the spell starts to glow with bright light. No save, no resistance even if resistance would work the surroundings are still lit up like the eifel tower 2 seconds after the new year countdown ended so you're still in a damn bright bubble and since everything is glowing brighly... no shadows I wonder if that's doable. Would be awesome. Might be quite impressive indeed.
_________________
Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf
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Yurell
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 13:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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That sounds like an awesome idea.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 13:52 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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and pesky annoying ass drow get blinded!
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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Silent2001
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 13:54 PM |
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Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Location: United Kingdomshire
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Yurell wrote: -20 Penalty still means very few people unless they are spot builds can see you.
And even if they can, the act of using HiPS breaks any action.
Well, my rogue has points in listen, 33 ranks at level 29 and he can easily hit 80 listen and he only has one listen item that grants him +8 listen.
But, perhaps True Seeing could be made... I don't know, useful? +10 spot is a bit silly, how about +25 or +20 spot?
At the moment it's a level 6 spell yet it's essentially a glorified Clairevoyance. ~ Not even that actually, as Clairvoyance also gives +10 listen. Heh.
But I think casting a cantrip with no chance of failure on seemingly epic hero's is a bit silly, the AoE version is quite nasty however.
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Phantom-D
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 14:17 PM |
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
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Gradea wrote: Lets compare the two skills usefullness
HiPS: completely immunity to physical damage
Do you even play a SD?
If you can' hit a SD there are two things that could be going on.
1) The Shadow Dancer is a very accomplished PvPer and is playing rather flawlessly. I've not seen many of these but if I had to guess I'd say Feonir and WonWon and Mahtan probably qualify here.
2) You aren't playing at the top of your game and missing opportunities and tactics and strategic decisions. This is generally what I find some players to do, they just aren't playing a strong game.
~~
What I find the vast majority of players to do is to simply play a "proficient" skill level, which I think I am. They get in some Hits on my SD and I avoid a lot of danger. I have the advantage but I still lose sometimes if they get crits on second hits or if I screw up and don't drop combat quick enough to HiPS. Most people don't play at the PvP skill level of Uberuce and other strong players so the "immortal SD" doesn't really exist.
I am assuming that the SD is killing their opponents with their weapon of choice and being melee. These change a lot when you decide to spam bigby's scrolls out of stealth from far away or you use a bow and arrow for sneaks at range, both which are a bit harder for any melee to defend against.
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Lesquille
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 14:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Location: Melbourne
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Could somebody pass me the popcorn?
_________________
Born to a [wealth level] family, you spent your early years doing [early activity] in [town type]. Your father was [father status], while your mother was [mother status]. You left your homeland at the age of [chosen age], seeking [reason for leaving].
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 14:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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No way, all mine. Get your own, lazy bugger.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Arcane Crusader
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 14:31 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Aug 2008
Location: Spokane, Wa.. USA
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ILoveIceCream wrote: that's them, not me. I don't even HIPS spam, just ask anyone I've pvped against on my two sd's Barra l'Shebali, and Amadrik Zauana. so I shouldn't have to pay because other's are being dumbasses and abusing it. And you do have a fair chance...it's called spot, and have spot gear....like everyone else. or if you're a mage...spam Wail....cleric...spam implosion..SD's aren't these invincible God's everyone seems to think they are
Gotta tell you, this is true. This guys got to be the fairest hipser I've fought. And I have fought tons of them. We had an long, epic battle and he probably used his hips 3-4 times. And he didnt stay in it long, and he switched from melee to bow and back each time. Was an awesome battle and he'll have zero complaints from me about hips spamming, rather he gets kudo's for playing fair and not abusing it. _________________  AllanaMolov said: "Dirk is like the grossest, worst version of Robin Hood ever and I love it"
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Phantom-D
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 15:06 PM |
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
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So I've been testing the technique that is supposedly gets you never hit and I knew about it but never used it cause it is a lot of work, and I didn't think it would be 100% successful. I'd need to practice a lot to become good at it because a lot of stuff is going on and you need some precision to pull it off, and speed.
If you can pull it off consistently and flawlessly then you probably deserve to win for putting in the practice and time.
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Jas
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 15:20 PM |
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Joined: 24 Sep 2006
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Actually, I must disagree and say that HiPs spamming consistently and flawlessly just requires minimal practice/time and no lag/lag spikes.
That said, I do support the notion of bumping true seeing/spot items or perhaps a hefty penalty to hide when light hits.
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 15:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Meh, can I have a spell that disrupts a clerics prayer ability then?
I'll only support light as a counter to HIPS if it's made as a touch based spell. So it can be dodged if possible.
Personally I like HIPS the way it is. I'd be more into giving spot items a hefty up and not the spell True Seeing. Clerics and Mages don't need the help against SD's. They can pretty much own the field with AOE anyway, and they have enough counters for EVERYTHING else as it is. It's rangers and fighters that need the help.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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ILoveIceCream
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 15:57 PM |
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Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Location: California
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rangers and fighters have plenty of counters...most have dev crit...alll you need is that your second attack is a crit (good chance) and that SD just got pwned, most don't have the saves even with fort equipmet to live through a dev crit. But I was likeing the 5th or 6th lvl spell or whatever being scripted to take a HIPS'er out of HIPS, that's a good idea....and maybe for those who can't cast spells, like fighters or rangers or whatever....something like the Realty Potion thing or whatever instead it takes HIPS'ers out of HIPS, maybe even make the GS one actually effect HIPS at the same time? My only problem with -light- is the fact I have no chance to avoid it, or resist it at all, when every other offensive spell I can...and light is a cantrip spell, if it was a lvl 9 spell I couldn't avoid that would be more understandable, but a cantrip any lvl 1 can cast, that can disable one of the most valuable feats for another class? that isn't anywhere near fair at all. It's like a said in another example...a lvl 1 spell disabling Dev Crit that can't be resisted, you know how much dev' critters would be complaining about that? exactly.
Last edited by ILoveIceCream on Fri, Jul 31 2009, 16:02 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Yurell
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 16:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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HiPS is a free action. B the time they've dropped the bottle any HiPSer would be hidden again.
And a feat you need to dedicate your entire build to is hardly an acceptable 'counter' in reality.
_________________
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ILoveIceCream
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 16:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Location: California
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I don't rely on HIPS, I try to fight without it unless I need to. but to say on the times I need to get away to use it that I can't because some lvl 1 casted light on me while I was fighting some lvl 30? makes no sense at all.
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Yurell
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 16:07 PM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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ILoveIceCream wrote: I don't rely on HIPS, I try to fight without it unless I need to. but to say on the times I need to get away to use it that I can't because some lvl 1 casted light on me while I was fighting some lvl 30? makes no sense at all.
How does a hostile wizard get that close to you while you're in a fight? As son as they cast your AoO should kill a level one in one hit. Even a level four or five would fail their concentration.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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ILoveIceCream
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 16:19 PM |
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Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Location: California
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it's situational, maybe the guy infront of me I was fighting was moving around a bit so I already used my attack off opprotunity that round. I don't have time to click over to kill the other guy, because I'm probably fighting a power builder, and one mistake you're dead. I also dislike pvping low levels because it's not even a fair fight against them, unless they do something like that, but even then.
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Bravo21
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 17:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Location: In the land of liquid sunshine and coffee
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I just have to ask.... When was the last time you were pwnd by an SD?
I don't know about everyone else but unless I've got a mage and a couple of tanks handy, as soon as anyone realizes I'm in the area I'm toast. So this whole endless series of posts on how to penalize a class that is at most a nuisance in PvP is really pointless. Are there that many SD/Dev critters running around? Oh, wait the server is being overloaded with Rouge/SD/PM's. No? Well, then it should be fun to play on your ideal server with no special abilities and a stat cap of 12 and no feats cause that's unfair to the players who didn't take that feat, and so on. . . . .
In response to the original point, I've always considered HiPS working as a distraction rather than a strictly supernatural ability. After all, magicians use distraction techniques to keep the audience from seeing the 'trick'. Adding the use of shadows would make that skill more effective. Just like most things in NWN, the game mechanic cannot duplicate specific actions, and even worse the game itself is based on an abstract system. Meanning that when you make an attack on your turn it represents six seconds of elapsed time, during which you and your opponent attack, parry, block, dodge several times. The 'hit' you make with your attack roll is the accumulated damage done to your enemy during the round, not a single hit. So given that, how an ability really works is up to the player using RP, because the game mechanic is at odds with reality. So basically it comes down to whos reality is more, er, real. Or you can chose to reject others reality and substitute your own. It is afterall a game, and a fantasy one at that. And in that 'light' I see no reason that an SD cannot hide even while lit, surely his ability to work with shadows can mask a simple light source.
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Bravo21
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 17:56 PM |
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Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Location: In the land of liquid sunshine and coffee
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As well, if the aim is to be fair, no cantrip should be able to affect HiPS. Is it fair that an ability that requires a minimum of 13 levels be made immpotent by a zero level spell? That's like having a wizard finnaly get access to 7th level spells but have a bard pwn him with a cantrip.
"The wizard fires off a finger of death spell only to find that the first level bard had cast resistance on himself and nullified the spell."
I for one would love to be able to use cantrips to pwn those pesky mages, and make all those Dev critters useless. Now if this method of SD abuse included a caster check rather than no save, that's a whole other story. A high level mage should have the finesse and knowledge to get more milage out of a low level spell. That would be the benifit of dedication of a craft, rather than taking one level and calling it good.
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Phantom-D
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Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2009, 22:38 PM |
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
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Jas wrote: Actually, I must disagree and say that HiPs spamming consistently and flawlessly just requires minimal practice/time and no lag/lag spikes.
That said, I do support the notion of bumping true seeing/spot items or perhaps a hefty penalty to hide when light hits.
I'd like to test with you ingame, if you don't mind.
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 0:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Bravo21 wrote: I just have to ask.... When was the last time you were pwnd by an SD? Can't remember the last time I got beaten by one. But that's because I don't PvP often and the last one I fought ran. Bravo21 wrote: Oh, wait the server is being overloaded with Rouge/SD/PM's. No? Well, while we're on the topic of sarcasm, which is an attempt at denigration, is that build even possible? Kindly avoid sarcasm unless you want this to degenerate into a flame war. Bravo21 wrote: Well, then it should be fun to play on your ideal server with no special abilities and a stat cap of 12 and no feats cause that's unfair to the players who didn't take that feat, and so on. . . . . That argument is brought up every time a new spell nerf is suggested - if something is broken (which I am reasonably sure HiPS is, especially when combined with Epic Dodge) it is best to try and sort it out in a compromise. The DMs have decided upon a rule they believe to be a fair compromise. Note: Compromise =/= Agreement; it doesn't have to. Your post has been style as an objection to the introduction of a new rule, not an argument against an old one. Bravo21 wrote: In response to the original point, I've always considered HiPS working as a distraction rather than a strictly supernatural ability. After all, magicians use distraction techniques to keep the audience from seeing the 'trick'. Adding the use of shadows would make that skill more effective. Just like most things in NWN, the game mechanic cannot duplicate specific actions, and even worse the game itself is based on an abstract system. Meanning that when you make an attack on your turn it represents six seconds of elapsed time, during which you and your opponent attack, parry, block, dodge several times. The 'hit' you make with your attack roll is the accumulated damage done to your enemy during the round, not a single hit. So given that, how an ability really works is up to the player using RP, because the game mechanic is at odds with reality. So basically it comes down to whos reality is more, er, real. Or you can chose to reject others reality and substitute your own. It is afterall a game, and a fantasy one at that. A good thought, except that it is also a PnP ability, which can handle that 'mechanically' (such as it is), and the game disagrees with you: Dungeonmaster's Guide wrote: Hide in Plain Sight (Su): The (Su) indicates that it is indeed a supernatural ability, hence the need for shadows within ten feet. The fact that light affects it is for balance purposes. Bravo21 wrote: And in that 'light' I see no reason that an SD cannot hide even while lit, surely his ability to work with shadows can mask a simple light source.
I agree with you partially - if a rogue can hide whilst glowing, an SD should be able to too (but not HiPS).
But neither should be able to hide whilst glowing - anything that's glowing is relatively easy to spot, especially at night.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 0:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Bravo21 wrote: As well, if the aim is to be fair, no cantrip should be able to affect HiPS. Is it fair that an ability that requires a minimum of 13 levels be made immpotent by a zero level spell? That's like having a wizard finnaly get access to 7th level spells but have a bard pwn him with a cantrip. No it's not. It's the stupidity of an SD with HiPS to let the wizard get close enough and not HiPS first, just like an unbuffed level 30 mage standing right in front of a lvl 15 fighter - one knockdown and mage is gone. Bravo21 wrote: I for one would love to be able to use cantrips to pwn those pesky mages, and make all those Dev critters useless. Now if this method of SD abuse included a caster check rather than no save, that's a whole other story. A high level mage should have the finesse and knowledge to get more milage out of a low level spell. That would be the benifit of dedication of a craft, rather than taking one level and calling it good.
Why? I know if I were mage I would not be targetting the person - I would simply make their items glow. In fact if I were a mage I wouldn't even bother with that and smack you with a Wail or an AoE spell.
But the idea of a caster level check does interest me - caster level + d20 vs 10 + SD levels (that's a farly standard DC)?
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يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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ILoveIceCream
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 0:17 AM |
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Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Location: California
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you're right, rogue's and sd's shouldn't be able to hide with a big blog of light right above their head....I get that, I understand that. But a simple cantrip spell that has no save or resist is overpowering to eliminate someone's most powerful feat. If my character had a chance to resist it like he can have a chance to resist every other spell....then go for it...but to have no chance at all to resist something that takes away my most powerful feat....is completly unfair. We spend 6 of our levels getting the ability....we sacrifice a lot for it.
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ILoveIceCream
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 0:21 AM |
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Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Location: California
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Yurell wrote: Bravo21 wrote: I for one would love to be able to use cantrips to pwn those pesky mages, and make all those Dev critters useless. Now if this method of SD abuse included a caster check rather than no save, that's a whole other story. A high level mage should have the finesse and knowledge to get more milage out of a low level spell. That would be the benifit of dedication of a craft, rather than taking one level and calling it good. Why? I know if I were mage I would not be targetting the person - I would simply make their items glow. In fact if I were a mage I wouldn't even bother with that and smack you with a Wail or an AoE spell. But the idea of a caster level check does interest me - caster level + d20 vs 10 + SD levels (that's a farly standard DC)? So with my mage...every spell I cast...be it a firebrand, or a magic missle...I should aim it at someone's armor...with that kind of logic, what's the point of SR to begin with if every mage can target someone's armor instead? makes no sense to me
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 0:24 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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ILoveIceCream wrote: you're right, rogue's and sd's shouldn't be able to hide with a big blog of light right above their head....I get that, I understand that. But a simple cantrip spell that has no save or resist is overpowering to eliminate someone's most powerful feat. If my character had a chance to resist it like he can have a chance to resist every other spell....then go for it...but to have no chance at all to resist something that takes away my most powerful feat....is completly unfair. We spend 6 of our levels getting the ability....we sacrifice a lot for it.
Well, to be fair they may not be targetting you and simply you clothes, to which SR does not extend.
And with SR you are lucky the game 'cheats' for you - you keep your SR and friendly spells can still help you. Sometimes that comes with down sides, but at least it also means you can be healed in combat without becoming vulnerable.
Just for the reference, in PnP a person can voluntarily lower their resistance, but then it is lowered for every spell until it is raised again.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 0:27 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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ILoveIceCream wrote: Yurell wrote: Bravo21 wrote: I for one would love to be able to use cantrips to pwn those pesky mages, and make all those Dev critters useless. Now if this method of SD abuse included a caster check rather than no save, that's a whole other story. A high level mage should have the finesse and knowledge to get more milage out of a low level spell. That would be the benifit of dedication of a craft, rather than taking one level and calling it good. Why? I know if I were mage I would not be targetting the person - I would simply make their items glow. In fact if I were a mage I wouldn't even bother with that and smack you with a Wail or an AoE spell. But the idea of a caster level check does interest me - caster level + d20 vs 10 + SD levels (that's a farly standard DC)? So with my mage...every spell I cast...be it a firebrand, or a magic missle...I should aim it at someone's armor...with that kind of logic, what's the point of SR to begin with if every mage can target someone's armor instead? makes no sense to me Tthe point of light is to make the other person glow as much as possible, and touching the armour achieves that goal.
Firbrand and magic missile are meant to hurt the other person - what is gained by hitting their armour, since armour is indestructible?
Sure, go ahead, aim for their armour - they want get SR. They won't get hurt, either.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
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BlackDahlya
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 3:13 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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belgianbonzai wrote: Maybe the mage lit up your armor? but since the mechanics make that impossible it just applies the effect on your character?
Armor doesn't have spell resistance (or if it has the mage casted on your helmet etc etc) so thats why you being a drow doesnt help you in resisting that spell?
Makes sense. Therefore, this is a good explanation why SR does not avoid your drow or your non-drow with high SR being lit up by a Light spell.
Call me unreasonable, but I think that argument I quoted should have ended all the complaints.
Now, if you mean your Epic Dodge avoiding the spell to get you, it is fine. After all, Light is a Touch spell.
Thus... complaints about high SR nullifying Light = Bad.
... arguments about Epic Dodge allowing you to have a chance to escape a Touch Check to cast light = Thumbs Up.
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BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 3:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Pfft, you'd just be better off correct HIPS to it's original PnP effect. Toss a counter on it to stop it's use for a few seconds, like the rest counter but shorter. Thats how HIP's is supposed to work after all. NWN2 has it.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 3:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Selvec Darkon wrote: Pfft, you'd just be better off correct HIPS to it's original PnP effect. Toss a counter on it to stop it's use for a few seconds, like the rest counter but shorter. Thats how HIP's is supposed to work after all. NWN2 has it.
There is no counter in PnP, it merely allows you to use Hide when in range of shadows (which is part of a move action).
Edit: If you try to HiPS while attacking you suffer a -20 penalty to hide in PnP, though, and running away instead of walking away is a -5 penalty on top of that, so HiPS in combat should be suffering a -25 penalty to hide in PnP
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 3:37 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Yurell wrote: Selvec Darkon wrote: Pfft, you'd just be better off correct HIPS to it's original PnP effect. Toss a counter on it to stop it's use for a few seconds, like the rest counter but shorter. Thats how HIP's is supposed to work after all. NWN2 has it. There is no counter in PnP, it merely allows you to use Hide when in range of shadows (which is part of a move action). Edit: If you try to HiPS while attacking you suffer a -20 penalty to hide in PnP, though Then just copy NWN2. Don't hear anyone complaining about SD's in NWN2.
Also the Dungeon Master Guide 3.5 which has the prestige class doesn't mention anything about -20 to hide when attacking. Where did you see that?
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 3:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Selvec Darkon wrote: Yurell wrote: Selvec Darkon wrote: Pfft, you'd just be better off correct HIPS to it's original PnP effect. Toss a counter on it to stop it's use for a few seconds, like the rest counter but shorter. Thats how HIP's is supposed to work after all. NWN2 has it. There is no counter in PnP, it merely allows you to use Hide when in range of shadows (which is part of a move action). Edit: If you try to HiPS while attacking you suffer a -20 penalty to hide in PnP, though Then just copy NWN2. Don't hear anyone complaining about SD's in NWN2. Also the Dungeon Master Guide 3.5 which has the prestige class doesn't mention anything about -20 to hide when attacking. Where did you see that? The DM guide 3.5 says you can use the hide skill,the penalty is described in the hide skill, PHB 3.5
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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ILoveIceCream
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 7:28 AM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Location: California
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Yurell wrote: ILoveIceCream wrote: Yurell wrote: Bravo21 wrote: I for one would love to be able to use cantrips to pwn those pesky mages, and make all those Dev critters useless. Now if this method of SD abuse included a caster check rather than no save, that's a whole other story. A high level mage should have the finesse and knowledge to get more milage out of a low level spell. That would be the benifit of dedication of a craft, rather than taking one level and calling it good. Why? I know if I were mage I would not be targetting the person - I would simply make their items glow. In fact if I were a mage I wouldn't even bother with that and smack you with a Wail or an AoE spell. But the idea of a caster level check does interest me - caster level + d20 vs 10 + SD levels (that's a farly standard DC)? So with my mage...every spell I cast...be it a firebrand, or a magic missle...I should aim it at someone's armor...with that kind of logic, what's the point of SR to begin with if every mage can target someone's armor instead? makes no sense to me Tthe point of light is to make the other person glow as much as possible, and touching the armour achieves that goal. Firbrand and magic missile are meant to hurt the other person - what is gained by hitting their armour, since armour is indestructible? Sure, go ahead, aim for their armour - they want get SR. They won't get hurt, either. by that....if I have full armor covering every ounce of skin and body as possible...no spell like firebrand or magic missle could effect my character? armor is indistructible right? couldn't touch the skin right? couldn't damage a person right?
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Ghostie_1
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 7:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Location: United States
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Fire + Steel plated armor = Oven
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 7:32 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Not all spells are susceptible to Spell Resistance.
Quote: Light
Evocation [Light]
Level: Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Object touched
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
I don't like it, but it does indeed make the "I'm a Drow; Give Me My Spell Resistance" argument fall flat on its arse.
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Mostly Retired
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ILoveIceCream
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 7:36 AM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Location: California
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the reason why it doesn't have SR is because it's a nonhostile spell, it's a buff. NWN didn't cater to Amia's version of SD's and using shadow and having light nulify it. It's a buff, not a hostile spell. Except in this case, in this instance, a person can see it as a hostile spell, thus allowing SR. just like a drow or other person with SR can allow a hostile spell to affect them if they wanted it to. So if Amia's Light spell is going to be used as a hostile spell, it should be treated like every other hostile spell.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 7:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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ILoveIceCream wrote: the reason why it doesn't have SR is because it's a nonhostile spell, it's a buff. NWN didn't cater to Amia's version of SD's and using shadow and having light nulify it. It's a buff, not a hostile spell. Except in this case, in this instant, a person can see it as a hostile spell, thus allowing SR. just like a drow or other person with SR can allow a spell to affect them if they wanted it to be it a hostile spell. So if Amia's Light spell is going to be used as a hostile spell, it should be treated like every other hostile spell. Your argument falls flat again. The 'Hostile or Not' status does not classify. There are hostile spells that negate SR, quite powerful ones at that, especially hwne used right. Whether it be a utility spell that can be used to hostile ends against another person... Quote: Discern Location
Divination
Level: Clr 8, Knowledge 8, Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Unlimited
Target: One creature or object
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No Directly hostile, though non-damaging ones.. Quote: Forcecage
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: Barred cage (20-ft. cube) or windowless cell (10-ft. cube)
Duration: 2 hours/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
And even outright damaging Quote: Acid Fog
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sor/Wiz 6, Water 7
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Fog spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No Additionally, 'harmless' spells such as buffs can still (and often do) have SR and saves. The difference is, that like any spell, the recipient can (and usually does) 'Refuse' his save; auto failing so it affects him or her. Quote: Bull's Strength
Transmutation
Level: Clr 2, Drd 2, Pal 2, Sor/Wiz 2, Strength 2
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
If you wish to argue a point, please make sure your point is founded.
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Mostly Retired
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ILoveIceCream
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 7:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Location: California
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hmmm touche.....but still, a cantrip spell (one that can be found on items with unlimited uses so anyone can use it on an sd at will) shouldn't have such an effect on a classes main ability. Perhaps, if it was a high lvl spell like Acid Fog, or Discern Location , or Forcecage...then yeah, that might make more sense for it to be unstopable like it is now.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 9:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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I don't really see it as a matter of balance. It's just the flavor of the class. I think it's wonderful that the mightiest of adventurers have to fear that some rookie discovers their Achilles' heel and uses it against them.
Granted, I'd rather we had better, mechanical ways to use Light against SDs. If the options are "Some of my PnP defences won't apply properly" and "I don't get to use every defence in the book, so I should be immune to it altogether" as is the case with current mechanics, the choice is clear.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Lord of the Pit
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 10:36 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Aug 2009
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This sounds like a lot of whining to me... 
Seriously, we play a game with flying pigs, and people who shoot fire from their hands and God knows what, and you are concerned with a 'magical' ability that allows people to hide, when the name of the actual feat is 'Hide in plain sight'.
Sure you might see it as 'broken', but when playing a starting Rouge I feel that low level warrior types are 'broken'. See how easy they wade through the sewers.....
Theres allready a penalty for hiding while 'lighted', so why bother about when and where you might hide. I agree that perhaps that penalty should be higher, but atm its not.
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 10:40 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Lord of the Pit wrote: This sounds like a lot of whining to me... Seriously, we play a game with flying pigs, and people who shoot fire from their hands and God knows what, and you are concerned with a 'magical' ability that allows people to hide, when the name of the actual feat is 'Hide in plain sight'. Sure you might see it as 'broken', but when playing a starting Rouge I feel that low level warrior types are 'broken'. See how easy they wade through the sewers..... Theres allready a penalty for hiding while 'lighted', so why bother about when and where you might hide. I agree that perhaps that penalty should be higher, but atm its not. Well, the question was geared towards whether an SD retains the ability to enter stealth normally.
This has since changed to people agreeing with the current rules regarding HiPS (light and you can't HiPS), requesting it become more firm, or wanting its removal.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Lord of the Pit
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 11:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Aug 2009
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Yurell wrote: Well, the question was geared towards whether an SD retains the ability to enter stealth normally.
But what is 'normal'. If you are able to hide even though you you are standing two feet away from someone, its obviosly not 'normal' sneakiness....even if that mechanic governs wether he i seen or not (as opposed to for example 'invisibility'.
Given that, Id say that it is more 'logical' for Rouges not being able to hide while lighted than SDs, as its 'normal sneakiness' which obviously does not work while your head is a lightbulb (corners or no corners..).
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Aug 01 2009, 11:10 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Lord of the Pit wrote: Yurell wrote: Well, the question was geared towards whether an SD retains the ability to enter stealth normally. But what is 'normal'. If you are able to hide even though you you are standing two feet away from someone, its obviosly not 'normal' sneakiness....even if that mechanic governs wether he i seen or not (as opposed to for example 'invisibility'. Given that, Id say that it is more 'logical' for Rouges not being able to hide while lighted than SDs, as its 'normal sneakiness' which obviously does not work while your head is a lightbulb (corners or no corners..). I'd assume that 'normal' refers to the manner by which everyone but those with HiPS hide.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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ILoveIceCream
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Posted: Sun, Aug 02 2009, 1:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Location: California
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IronAngel wrote: I don't really see it as a matter of balance. It's just the flavor of the class. I think it's wonderful that the mightiest of adventurers have to fear that some rookie discovers their Achilles' heel and uses it against them.
Then why don't we have said Achilles' heel for Mages, making them not able to cast anything at all while require no saves or anything. Or what about something to nullify Dev crit with no save, or something to nullify druid's wildshapes...or bard's curse song, or palemasters crit/sneak immunity? Why just have such a thing on a class that invests a lot to get an ability that any noob can counter?
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Sun, Aug 02 2009, 1:58 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Ghostie_1 wrote: Fire + Steel plated armor = Oven
Not entirely. That searing heat beam might do it, but a fireball wouldn't. Would need to be very very very hot to sufficiently heat up plated armor.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Yurell
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Posted: Sun, Aug 02 2009, 2:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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ILoveIceCream wrote: IronAngel wrote: I don't really see it as a matter of balance. It's just the flavor of the class. I think it's wonderful that the mightiest of adventurers have to fear that some rookie discovers their Achilles' heel and uses it against them.
Then why don't we have said Achilles' heel for Mages, making them not able to cast anything at all while require no saves or anything. Or what about something to nullify Dev crit with no save, or something to nullify druid's wildshapes...or bard's curse song, or palemasters crit/sneak immunity? Why just have such a thing on a class that invests a lot to get an ability that any noob can counter? They can only counter if the SD lets a noob, just like a fighter cantake down a wizard if he's unbuffed and close - any SD that allows the mage that close to him without HiPSing as soon as he tries to cast a spell as a problm with strategy, not the spell cast being overpowered.
Especially since in your case you hae Darkness, which cancels Light.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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ILoveIceCream
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Posted: Sun, Aug 02 2009, 2:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Location: California
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if I were to darkness myself...the light would still be there once the darkness would expire and thus I still have the -10 or -20 or whatever it is penalty to hide
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Yurell
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Posted: Sun, Aug 02 2009, 2:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Quote: Darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower spell level.
I'm fairly sure we use this rule:
Light < Darkness < Continual Light (or whatever it is) < Greater Darkness (or whatever it is)
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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ILoveIceCream
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Posted: Sun, Aug 02 2009, 2:37 AM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Location: California
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have someone cast light on one of your characters....then have someone cast a darkness spell on you....when the darkness goes away...the light will remain glowing off you. So I'm assuming the -20 hide or whatever is still there.
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