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Simply question:

Light negates HIPS, that's well know, but, does light prevent someone from hiding at all?

That is to say, if a Shadow dancer or anyone good at stealth breaks line of sight, can they hide using traditional stealth if they've had light cast on them?

Furthermore, if someone is already stealthed and hidden and Continual light strikes them, are they revealed?

It makes things more difficult, that is all though.

I think the engine automatically applies a penalty to hide when under the light effect.

HellScourge wrote:

It makes things more difficult, that is all though.

I think the engine automatically applies a penalty to hide when under the light effect.

This I do believe. I'm quite sure that you can still cornersneak (or try to) to your heart's content.

Which seems stupid to me, but that's the way things are.

-20 i think.

so if you can see em you can see em, if not, nope.

I thought the agreement was a SD hit by the spell lgiht cant do a damn thing with hips until they cast darkness?

GreatPigeon wrote:

I thought the agreement was a SD hit by the spell lgiht cant do a damn thing with hips until they cast darkness?

They can't, this is talking about cornersneaking / standard hiding if you are a HiPSer hit by this spell.

Sounds like a clever way to get even more OOC drama out of PvP encounters.

So as soon as you gain HiPS you shouldn't be able to hide normally?

Yurell wrote:

So as soon as you gain HiPS you shouldn't be able to hide normally?

Isn't it the same as far as game engine is concerned, and thus this will only lead to arguments about if a HIPS-spammer did sidestep behind a barrel or not when PvPing with light.

Silvarus wrote:

Yurell wrote:

So as soon as you gain HiPS you shouldn't be able to hide normally?

Isn't it the same as far as game engine is concerned, and thus this will only lead to arguments about if a HIPS-spammer did sidestep behind a barrel or not when PvPing with light.

I just think it's unfair to say "normal rogues can hide behind object whilst glowing, but since you're a normal rogue plus some, you can't"

Yurell wrote:

Silvarus wrote:

Yurell wrote:

So as soon as you gain HiPS you shouldn't be able to hide normally?

Isn't it the same as far as game engine is concerned, and thus this will only lead to arguments about if a HIPS-spammer did sidestep behind a barrel or not when PvPing with light.

I just think it's unfair to say "normal rogues can hide behind object whilst glowing, but since you're a normal rogue plus some, you can't"

Considering the absolute game breaking qualities of HIPS, there is not much you can do.

GreatPigeon wrote:

I thought the agreement was a SD hit by the spell light cant do a damn thing with hips until they cast darkness?

Aye, but unless we could mechanically stop SD's from using HiPS with a light spell on them... this is just one of those weird unenforceable rules in Amia.

ticket wrote:

GreatPigeon wrote:

I thought the agreement was a SD hit by the spell light cant do a damn thing with hips until they cast darkness?

Aye, but unless we could mechanically stop SD's from using HiPS with a light spell on them... this is just one of those weird unenforceable rules in Amia.

Yes, but is it "An SD can't HiPS when glowing" or "An SD can't hide at all, even through normal means available to a rogue if glowing"?
If it's the latter, why can rogues?

Description wrote:

Creates a small light source above the target creature's head. The light travels with the target and is capable of illuminating a small area. It can be cast on any item the character can equip to make it glow for the spell's duration like a natural source of light.

If the description is the same as this on Amia, is that to say a hider could stick a coat over their head to block the ball of light, or would that be worthless anyway, because it would look like there is a floating coat in the air which is glowing?

Anubis wrote:

Description wrote:

Creates a small light source above the target creature's head. The light travels with the target and is capable of illuminating a small area. It can be cast on any item the character can equip to make it glow for the spell's duration like a natural source of light.

If the description is the same as this on Amia, is that to say a hider could stick a coat over their head to block the ball of light, or would that be worthless anyway, because it would look like there is a floating coat in the air which is glowing?

As it is, it's simply a hide penalty.

Yurell wrote:

ticket wrote:

GreatPigeon wrote:

I thought the agreement was a SD hit by the spell light cant do a damn thing with hips until they cast darkness?

Aye, but unless we could mechanically stop SD's from using HiPS with a light spell on them... this is just one of those weird unenforceable rules in Amia.

Yes, but is it "An SD can't HiPS when glowing" or "An SD can't hide at all, even through normal means available to a rogue if glowing"?
If it's the latter, why can rogues?

Because the game engine treats HIPS differently than normal hiding in that it allows it anywhere and the light rule was put there only to limit HIPS-spamming, not to nitpick about lore of how classes hide.

And if you're cornersneaking you're not HiPS-spamming.

Yurell, the problem is that what NWN's engine calls a corner and what common sense calls a corner are two different things.

Sometimes you should plainly still be visible but it lets you do it, but much more often you can't cornersneak even though you are 100% covered by PLCs in the area. Trees are a bitch for this. Idiot engine thinks all but the biggest ones are made out of fibre optic glass, as far as I call tell.

The SD player, who is 99% likely to have no player skill at stealth, can just hit F1 and claim cornersneak if there's anything opaque bigger than a toothbrush in between them and the enemy, when in actual fact they're just HiPSing. Well, the way it's implemented means they never do any kind of stealth but HiPS; what I mean is if they didn't have it, the enemy PC would still see them.

So an SD also ICly loses the ability to hide normally?

Well, if 'normally' could be applied to the rogue faux-invisibility stealth.

They can still cornersneak ICly.

The point I'm failing to communicate is that a lit-up SD can HiPS when behind certain terrain features and PLCs which do not actually grant stealth-enabling cover to anyone else and still claim it's cornersneaking because what's on screen looks like it should.

Thus, the problem is they can ICly cornersneak where no-one else can OOCly.

The only solution to this is a degree of class and fairmindedness on the part of Shadowdancer players, and gaining enough skill to cornersneak.

*collapses into fits of laughter*

Unfortunately, if you want to introduce rules that cannot be controlled mechanically, all you can do s hope that those affected play reasonably.

NWN's broken when it comes to hiding logically. No point justifying it somehow.

Here's the answer system wise direct from Bioware

http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... 15#4836078

NWN's broken for a lot of things. Personally, that rule has always come across has PnP to me, and should really require agreement or permission. You are after all asking someone to adhere to a PnP rule and not a server rule, or an IG rule.

Personally if I was an SD, and someone cast light on me for no reason, just because they suspect I am an SD, I'd just HIPS anyway and ignore the turd. If I'm heavily outnumbered I may ignore it to. You shouldn't rely on this "rule" to stop HIPS. If someone doesn't stop, they are not breaking any rules I believe, and thus all you can do is whine about someone doing something YOU think is wrong.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

NWN's broken for a lot of things. Personally, that rule has always come across has PnP to me, and should really require agreement or permission. You are after all asking someone to adhere to a PnP rule and not a server rule, or an IG rule.

I thought it was a server rule?

Edit:

From the sidebar:

Quote:

It’s an unwritten rule, but please try to observe the traditional PnP rules that govern the use of the Hide in Plain Sight feat. For example: Using it only when within 10 feet of a shadow (that isn’t your own). Also, if the Light spell is cast on you it can negate the use ofHide in Plain Sight.

Yurell wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

NWN's broken for a lot of things. Personally, that rule has always come across has PnP to me, and should really require agreement or permission. You are after all asking someone to adhere to a PnP rule and not a server rule, or an IG rule.

I thought it was a server rule?

Edit:

From the sidebar:

Quote:

It’s an unwritten rule, but please try to observe the traditional PnP rules that govern the use of the Hide in Plain Sight feat. For example: Using it only when within 10 feet of a shadow (that isn’t your own). Also, if the Light spell is cast on you it can negate the use ofHide in Plain Sight.

Now that is pretty lame. Bit of a double standard since one PnP rule is being enforced, but other's of equal usefulness are not.

How is it double standards? They're not applying the rule to some people and not to others.
They merely selected a rule to try and deal with an ability that's broken.

Casting light to stop a rogue or SD hiding is silly IMHO, it's just as bad as when I've seen PvP situations where the winner has RP'ed stealing the oppositions weapon(s) and breaking them so they have no way of getting them back, unless in possession of another weapon.

Yeah, it makes IC sense to take away what gives the opposition an advantage, but it also borderlines grieving, or so it seems to me atleast.
This is not to say that I think anyone is grieving by doing so.

Myself, I wouldn't do neither to anyone. Or atleast not without asking OOC'ly if they mind or not.

Anubis wrote:

Casting light to stop a rogue or SD hiding is silly IMHO

Being able to hide when you are glowing is silly.

Anubis wrote:

it's just as bad as when I've seen PvP situations where the winner has RP'ed stealing the oppositions weapon(s) and breaking them so they have no way of getting them back, unless in possession of another weapon.

It's nothing like that, and you can quite freely ignore it (the weapon breakng) as far as I'm aware.

But as it is, mechanics make the hider suffer penalties, and the rules prevent HiPSing when under the affects of this spell, which I think is a reasonable compromise.

Fair enough.

Though, I didn't mean it was silly you can't hide under the effect of light, but that it was silly people used it on Rogues/SD's/Assassins to disable what is for the majority of those, their main survival tactic and therefore IMO should be asked OOC'ly in a tell if it's okay.

Over all, it's because for the hider, the opposition is possibly creating an OOC headache, and since it's a game, it's in everyones best interest to avoid OOC headaches and try to keep both parties within reasonable situations that are fun for each involved.

As Galenson pointed out, stealth in NWN is silly, but invisibility is about the only way it could be implemented, given the limited way in which you can interact with terrain.

I'd prefer it if 'Shadowdancer' was just considered a nickname, and HiPS had nothing to do with shadows at all. The unenforceable rules go away and Light's just a Hide debuff, made nasty by the lack of save or SR.

I think we still need an official ruling for the OP about being able to hide, though.

If light is cast directly on you, you cannot hips, if its cast in the general area, well, light CREATES shadows, so find an object that can conceal your character, then go for it. Atleast thats what I think. Does darkness counteract the light spell?

LeathanKayne wrote:

Simply question:

Light negates HIPS, that's well know, but, does light prevent someone from hiding at all?

That is to say, if a Shadow dancer or anyone good at stealth breaks line of sight, can they hide using traditional stealth if they've had light cast on them?

As you can see, not such a simple question

I'd be inclined to want an official DM answer for that, although personally I think it should be fine.

LeathanKayne wrote:

Furthermore, if someone is already stealthed and hidden and Continual light strikes them, are they revealed?

As far as I know - nope. You stay hidden.

SDs can corner sneak at will.

They just can't be morons. Only a couple SDs I met are the necessary level of stupid they quickly filter off the server.

hmm, something I was wondering, if light reduces hide by 20, and sd's did not have the +15+15 cloak, I think they would be preatty easy to detect with spot. Just a thought on the subject.

Anubis wrote:

it was silly people used it on Rogues/SD's/Assassins to disable what is for the majority of those, their main survival tactic and therefore IMO should be asked OOC'ly in a tell if it's okay.

Remind me to apply that logic next time someone decides to use a reality potion against my GS.

The no hips while light is not really a rule, it's not enforced, and would be imposible to do, plus it's implementation is flawed. It's more of a suggestion really. I never saw it actually RPed at all. If you want to use light against a SD, take the following into account.

How do you tell if someone had light on them? If they hipsed or cornersneaked?

And that's not even taking into account that light would require a touch attack to be cast on you which most SD's can just epic dodge. Spell resistance does not stop it either but should.

SD's have an item that grants imunity to 1 level spells and lover, yet it does not stop light as the engine does not consider it a hostile spell. Same for ghostly visage which should stop Light but does not.

Further, since Light against a SD is a hostile action, it would fall under the same rules any other PVP action does... meaning, you need to hostile the person you are casting it on, and they would be allowed to smack you down right there.

It's too much trouble really... I'd say just drop the whole ''rule'', light already gives a penalty to the hide skill.

Mr Mago wrote:

Anubis wrote:

it was silly people used it on Rogues/SD's/Assassins to disable what is for the majority of those, their main survival tactic and therefore IMO should be asked OOC'ly in a tell if it's okay.

Remind me to apply that logic next time someone decides to use a reality potion against my GS.

I'm failling to see how that's the same. A hider gets light thrown on them, they can't hide unless it's dispelled or if they get a chance to rest, which is unlikely. They face beeing banned if they use HIPS while under the effect.

If someone uses a reality pot, all it takes is to re-GS. And I thought most people moved away from hostilities while in Gs, to avoid realities, usually while buffering, since it's not the smartest thing to stay in one place for prolonged time. Also, you don't face a ban if you Re-GS after a reality pot hit's you.

Reality is only a counter to GS, it doesn't render it useless leaving you with a constant effect like Light does until you get a way to remove the effect, which by that point the hider is likely already dead.

I think we added the "Burst" BoT option to Continual Flame for the very purpose of attacking SDs with it. So yeah, it's very much a rule that you can't HIPS when you have Light on you, and it's enforced if there's ever a chance. R&L says:

Quote:

HiPS is an optical illusion used to momentarily allow nearby shadows to conceal you long enough to appropriately hide, despite being watched. You must be within 10ft of a shadow large enough to conceal half of your body that is not your own to use this ability. Cannot be performed when glowing or giving off light (though can hide while under the affect of Faerie Fire and other effects that are merely to outline the subject (faerie fire has a -20 hide scripted in).)

As for the difference between Cornersneaking and HIPS? Uh, seems like bad sports and a silly way to bend the rules, to me. I'm not inclined to make any ruling either way, because players should have enough sense to handle it themselves. I would never do it, though. It wouldn't cornersneak even as a non-SD, if I had Light cast on me.

Last edited by Zante on Wed, Jul 29 2009, 14:50 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Well, I had a DM ingame rule that Epic dodge negates hips. Getting Light cast on a SD is not as easy as it seems, if you go about it the proper way.

Just casting in in PvP is most likely not even going to be noticed by the other party, and will lead to an occ argument. And you can still say you hide behind a tree or dart behind a placeable to hide.

Well, it works as it works. What you see is what you get, as far as I'm concerned. If I can light you up, I don't have to know the finer points of PnP rules: it's enough to see you glow.

I don't know if Continual Light respects Epic Dodge or not. I hope not, because that makes no sense. The BoT page is supposed to be a ranged Light burst for combat purposes.

And what about spell imunity, spell resistance? Light should be scripted into a hostile attack, so you can actually defend against it.

The engine considers it a buff, which is a flaw.

What Zan said, except only for Hostiles and Neutrals, though able to just cast on friendlies, that's a good idea IMO.

Might be so. There are many spells that don't work "as they should", that is, according to PnP standards. There is a specific rule about HiPS's relation to Light implemented on Amia, but no rule about the details of Light. Therefore, everything apart from What You See Is What You Get is just speculation and subject to both parties' approval, as is the case with all PnP rules, IMO.

You can't really make up new rules for spells to do what you think they should do, and expect everyone to agree.

Quote:

You can't really make up new rules for spells to do what you think they should do, and expect everyone to agree.

That is what the rule about not being able to hips while glowing does. By default the spell already works as intended, giving the hipser a rather large penalty to their hide score, giving anyone with spot a easy time to find them. If you decide to go PnP and say, allright, light negates hips, it makes sense to take all the counters and defenses into account as well.

Not at all. No one has "gone PnP", it's just one of many rules Amia has.

By "you" I meant you, the players. Of course DMs can do that, and expect everyone to, if not agree, at least adhere. Just because Amia has some rules that resemble, or are derived from, PnP doesn't mean we must import every connected rule as well - and it certainly doesn't mean players can assume it's alright to do that on their own.

The few times people ever casted light on me wasn't even in combat on the guy was doing it randomly to everyone since he got a new item that casts it unlimited I think.

Default light you can dodge since it is a touch attack

Continual light BoT page you can't (Unless it is a ray attack)

You can corner sneaked while lit up (It has a default -20 *might be -10* penalty)

There are many ways to counter light such as immunity to spell levels, immunity to XXXX spell, casting darkness (except against Continual Light), corner sneaking, running away works too I guess.

I've never liked light since it is considered a buff (Not sure why they'd make a buff with -20 hide though). If the spell worked as intended it would probably have a will save and having a bubbly would counter it, but we can't be so lucky. It is considered harmless so you need to come up with other ways around it.

This is what I see:

Shadow dancing is not a style of hiding, it's a method of disappearing -so- you can hide, just as if you'd disappeared from sight for a moment around a corner.

As such, all Shadow dancers are just as adept at stealth as rogues, but with an advantage. They simply lose that advantage if they have light cast on them.

That said, anyone with stealth can still run a corner and hide with a penalty if they get out of sight of their attacker. It's still an advantage to have if fighting a shadow dancer. If you can't stop them from getting around a corner, then you'd have this much trouble with a simple rogue to. It ain't our problem yer weak

I'm happy with what I've seen thus far though - It does seem that the general attitude is that corner sneaking still works, but with a penalty, and anyone -currently- hiden, not trying to hide, should still remain hiden if hit with something like continual light.

And to stop some of the arguing - Think about this: Light is only going to be a real penalty during night. During the day the sun is going to win over light, so you're screwed. Also, if you blanket an area with continual light, you just lit up the whole area, so the stealther can remain hiden -within- that light, he just can't call upon shadows to help him.

Woo.

Craig deathwalker wrote:

hmm, something I was wondering, if light reduces hide by 20, and sd's did not have the +15+15 cloak, I think they would be preatty easy to detect with spot. Just a thought on the subject.

Actually can a decent SD get above 80 spot, without that cloak *cough*
No way a rather normal non spot build could see that.

I also vote for more Dancing in Shadowdance, but that is just me, hehe.

HIPS and Traditional Hide VS Light

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