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Tieflings only get 29 Levels.

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

Tieflings only get 29 Levels.

doh!

edited it to reflect 29 lvls

TheNamelessUnknown1 wrote:

a friend of mine asked me to make a tiefling dev critting sneaker, this is what i came up with i was hoping you guys could give some advice on the build

fighter/weapon master/shadow dancer
tiefling

What about stats and skills?

IronAngel wrote:

Cleric 17/Monk3 going Cleric 24/Monk 6
Str 15 (16)
Dex 12
Con 12
Wis 16 (24)
Int 10
Cha 10

Craft Wand
Extend Spell
Maximize Spell
SF+GSF (Evocation)
Toughness
WF (Quarterstaff)
Imp. Crit.

Armor Skin
EWF
ESF (Evo)
Great Wisdom II

Looks good.

Seeing as you went with ESF Evocation, it would probably be better to go 27 Cleric/3 Monk on this though. Suck it up, wear a plate until you get the 30th level and 3rd monk (for max discipline). Slightly less skills, -1 AC, and no IKD in exchange for +3 DC on your implosions and an extra feat.

TheNamelessUnknown1 wrote:

21. shadow dancer, epic weapon focus
22. shadow dancer
23. shadow dancer
24. shadow dancer, overwhelming critical
25. shadow dancer
26. shadow dancer
27. fighter, armor skin, epic weapon spec
28. fighter
29. fighter, devastating critical

Take fighter in 21 and at 27th go for SD. Gets you 30th tumble.

On that fighter/wm/sd.... You are gonna be tight on skillls, seeing how you need cross class tumble, hide, and move silently.. Tiefling already takes away the human bonus...

Fighter and WM only gets 2 skills per level..
Assuming you get intel to 14... this only nets you 4 skill points a level..

Prequisites for SD
-10hide (Will cost you 20)
-8 ms (Will cost you 16)
-5 tumble (Cross Class, cost you 10 points)
-Dodge and Mobility (Taken Care of by WM prerequistites)

46 skill points...

And I dont think you will be a very good sneak in armor... You lose a lot of skills points because of Armor Check Penalty trying to do so, And you dont even have umd to use wands of mass camo or gear with camo spell on it.
Its a WM without maxed AB
No UMD
NO Sneak Attacks,

The build proposed only has 152 skill points...

You could -if- you wanted to squeeze adn max out hide/ms/con/discipline... But to what avail? You wont have any epic hide, ms, spot, listen... You will get torn apart from other sneaks...

Sinec you are not dex based and wearing full plate armor your sneak scores will be horrible... And if you went with lighter armor, your AC would suffer.
Plate Armor -8
Large Shield -2
Tower Shiled -10

Assuming just plate armor and large shield you've lost 10 points from 32... Thats 22.. Not very much gear for good meleeing (needed for wm) confers much hide... even if you could somehow get gear giving you +50 in each, not ganking your build.... (dont think you can), You have 70ish hide/ms... I think you'd get spotted horrible often... And thats if you have the best gear available... somehow I dont think you can get +50 on gear and still get +12 to str, some + to con, and maxing out a fighters AC.

GreatPigeon wrote:

On that fighter/wm/sd.... You are gonna be tight on skillls, seeing how you need cross class tumble, hide, and move silently.. Tiefling already takes away the human bonus...

Fighter and WM only gets 2 skills per level..
Assuming you get intel to 14... this only nets you 4 skill points a level..

Prequisites for SD
-10hide (Will cost you 20)
-8 ms (Will cost you 16)
-5 tumble (Cross Class, cost you 10 points)
-Dodge and Mobility (Taken Care of by WM prerequistites)

46 skill points...

And I dont think you will be a very good sneak in armor... You lose a lot of skills points because of Armor Check Penalty trying to do so, And you dont even have umd to use wands of mass camo or gear with camo spell on it.
Its a WM without maxed AB
No UMD
NO Sneak Attacks,

The build proposed only has 152 skill points...

You could -if- you wanted to squeeze adn max out hide/ms/con/discipline... But to what avail? You wont have any epic hide, ms, spot, listen... You will get torn apart from other sneaks...

Sinec you are not dex based and wearing full plate armor your sneak scores will be horrible... And if you went with lighter armor, your AC would suffer.
Plate Armor -8
Large Shield -2
Tower Shiled -10

Assuming just plate armor and large shield you've lost 10 points from 32... Thats 22.. Not very much gear for good meleeing (needed for wm) confers much hide... even if you could somehow get gear giving you +50 in each, not ganking your build.... (dont think you can), You have 70ish hide/ms... I think you'd get spotted horrible often... And thats if you have the best gear available... somehow I dont think you can get +50 on gear and still get +12 to str, some + to con, and maxing out a fighters AC.

your actually echoing something i was telling him. He's never going to be good at both dev critting and sneaking, and since str. is a pre req for dev crit, that was the aspect of his dev crit/sneaker build i tried focusing on the most. this was the best i came up with for him, i was hoping maybe someone could help tweak it a bit or had some ideas *shrugs* it just seems so mediocre to me. he will end up being spotted often

ticket wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

Cleric 17/Monk3 going Cleric 24/Monk 6
Str 15 (16)
Dex 12
Con 12
Wis 16 (24)
Int 10
Cha 10

Craft Wand
Extend Spell
Maximize Spell
SF+GSF (Evocation)
Toughness
WF (Quarterstaff)
Imp. Crit.

Armor Skin
EWF
ESF (Evo)
Great Wisdom II

Looks good.

Seeing as you went with ESF Evocation, it would probably be better to go 27 Cleric/3 Monk on this though. Suck it up, wear a plate until you get the 30th level and 3rd monk (for max discipline). Slightly less skills, -1 AC, and no IKD in exchange for +3 DC on your implosions and an extra feat.

Don't listen to Ticket.

Its +3 on your roll to overcome spell resistance. CL has nothing to do with the DC of combat spells.

EDIT: Furthermore i would drop either Imp Critical or Toughness for Silent spell to give the option of filling up your spell book with silenced Earth Quakes/Hammer of The Gods/Sunbeams. Disablers are better than Implosion.

Far better bang for your buck during the levelling process.

Fighter/WM/Rogue

Take Rogue more? Buff up hide, sneak are better. Corner sneak and use darkness? HIP's is over rated.

Old Character Idea that i never went through with

Charlie the Chipmunk Chultan WM.

10Fighter 13WM 7SD

18str 14(16)dex 10con 14int 8wis 8(6)cha

Raise Str to 26 (7 level up + 1 Gr. Str)

Pre-epic 7 Fighter 10WM 3SD

Pre-epic Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, WF: Greataxe, Imp Critical, Weapon Spec Great Axe, Knockdown, Improved Knockdown, Whirlwind, Expertise, Blindfight

Epic Feats: Epic Skill Focus hide, EWF, ArmorSkin, Epic Weapon Spec, Gr. Str 1, Epic Discipline, Epic Prowess.

Dex Modifier Reaches 9. Therefore no need for fullplate.
Max Hide 102
Max MS 92

AB: 48 (+4 Vanilla greataxe)
AC: 43 base.

MoshingChris wrote:

CL has nothing to do with the DC of combat spells.

Oh right. I'll just sit over here in the corner now.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Fighter/WM/Rogue

Take Rogue more? Buff up hide, sneak are better. Corner sneak and use darkness? HIP's is over rated.

Cornersneaking is good at PvM under 6 BAB, since six seconds of the time you spend doing it would be wasted anyway, but once your Knockdowns and dualwielding improve, it sucks for everything but PvP.

Darkness is good, but if you can reliably KD the beasties, I don't think it's worth the micromanagement of cast/day items. I wouldn't be surprised if it's genuinely quicker to KD-spam rather than spend the time equipping stuff, but it's certainly less annoying.

Uberuce wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Fighter/WM/Rogue

Take Rogue more? Buff up hide, sneak are better. Corner sneak and use darkness? HIP's is over rated.

Cornersneaking is good at PvM under 6 BAB, since six seconds of the time you spend doing it would be wasted anyway, but once your Knockdowns and dualwielding improve, it sucks for everything but PvP.

Darkness is good, but if you can reliably KD the beasties, I don't think it's worth the micromanagement of cast/day items. I wouldn't be surprised if it's genuinely quicker to KD-spam rather than spend the time equipping stuff, but it's certainly less annoying.

Not to mention people tend to look down on spammers in PvP. I'd say if your taking an STR sneaker you're probably taking it for PvP and not PvE anyway. Enemies just have to many immunites to the main advantages of a STR sneaker. STR Sneaker always seem's like it's made to hit one person as hard as possible as fast as possible, on first few hits IMHO.

How about Ranger/SD for the Dev Crit sneaker? Bane, Camo Spells, and a free tank! :idea:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

STR Sneaker always seem's like it's made to hit one person as hard as possible as fast as possible, on first few hits IMHO.

Yarp, it's a pretty narrow niche; the number of folk that a DEX base can't instagib too is pretty small, certainly compared to the number of folk that can whup a STR-WM in a duel but get Epic Dodged into the turf by the lightfoot.

Ftr12/WM7/Rogue11, maybe? That gets your standard Blindfight, IKD, Devcrit and EWS, with an extra 21/hit from Sneaks. It'll have to be Tuigan or the feats and stats don't add up. CON is a painful 10, alas. Skills look okay for maxing Discipline/Hide/MS, 30Tumble and then there's sixty odds left over.

13 Rogue works aswell if you want Imp Evasion/Crippling.

Only reason I say that is due to my 13Rogue/10Fighter/7WM dwarf having a ton of reflex (Middling 30's i believe).

The other option for RP of my character is to be blackguard instead of SD. Perhaps you can figure out a build with BG. I don't fully insist to be sneker.

MoshingChris wrote:

EDIT: Furthermore i would drop either Imp Critical or Toughness for Silent spell to give the option of filling up your spell book with silenced Earth Quakes/Hammer of The Gods/Sunbeams. Disablers are better than Implosion.

Far better bang for your buck during the levelling process.

Would you say I should rather drop one cleric level pre-epic for Fighter instead, and use that extra feat for Silent Spell (or rather, for a combat feat and take Silent on another level, but you get the point)? Alternately, I could take that Ranger (or Fighter, I suppose) level in Epic and get ESF/EWF that way, but it's pretty irrelevant still I'll be using the extra for a non-Epic feat anyhow, and it's not very useful to get that feat once I'm almost levelled up.

Or, I could drop Toughness, take 2 more Con at creation, get one extra epic feat with Ranger or Fighter, use the leftover for Great Wisdom, and finish with the same HP plus +1 Fort and Silent Spell.

So, to sum up (this question for all melee cleric players): Is that loss of one CL worth the extra feat, or should I just suck it up and drop Toughness (or skip Silent Spell)?

If any of my casters will have level 8 and nine spells with a DC over 35 then i will take silent/still spell depending on flavor. And yes i'm willing to drop 30 hp in favor of it. On a high level and Dev enabled server HP just isn't that important. Especially considering most PC's are running around with Imp Critical and Keen weaponary.

What's your thoughts on the primary question, though? The matter of CL vs. extra multiclass feat. I mean, I could keep all those feats and get Silent if I multiclassed, or I could drop Toughness and go for 2 more Con instead (Great Wis I, starting with 15).

I'm not sure about dispelling and buff durations, whether it's worth it.

Theres not much difference between 23 and 24 in regards to Greater Dispelling. Dispel rolls are made against each buff. If i had my day head on I could give you an exact response. But to answer your question in a mediocare fashion. I would take another class if it means taking Silent spell.

I would prefer +Con Hp over Toughness HP.

There's just too many places where CL is a factor. Spell damage, spell power, beating SR, duration, dispel checks. It's also cool to have a pureclassed build that can kick ass.

I used to build many casters that were multiclassed, two of them focusing on Zen Archery. But after a while I noticed how much I was missing out. I would say.. take Zen Archery, and pump everything else into casting stat and spell foci.

This is still about the Cleric, right? >_>

Evocation/Conjuration cleric is the awesomeness, xordae has a point. On a near pure cleric, that is.

IronAngel wrote:

What's your thoughts on the primary question, though? The matter of CL vs. extra multiclass feat. I mean, I could keep all those feats and get Silent if I multiclassed, or I could drop Toughness and go for 2 more Con instead (Great Wis I, starting with 15).

I'm not sure about dispelling and buff durations, whether it's worth it.

Just get 25 cleric to be immune to anything but a mords. Also dont be worried about 1 CL. Get silent spell, you get another feat.. much more casts like Chris said..

Also dont worry... its a loss of 1 minute... Not very often will you be going anywhere for 25 minutes at a time. Remeber you have extend spell to on all your major buffs.. You will be fine.

Got an epic dodgy sneaky fellow (rogue only, no SD yuk) I'm building and I've got ESF Hide and ESF Move built in right now. Kinda wondering if ESF Move is even worth the trouble. Is listen so broken that most folks don't bother maxing Move or is it still worthwhile? He'd come out around 108 Move with it, 98 without. I've slotted it on a standard Epic feat so it's wide open for ESF Discipline or Epic Fort, or whatever.

The number of people that are going to land Knockdowns on you is higher than the number of people with any Listen, let alone maxed + ESF Listen, so I'd take Discipline over Move Silent.

even if they hear you they can't attack you unless they are an mage.. unless that chnaged 1.69

Really Evil Pigeon wrote:

even if they hear you they can't attack you unless they are an mage.. unless that chnaged 1.69

I thought any area attacks would get them. Hammer of the Gods, Whirlwind Attack, etc.

You can attack with weapons, but spells can't be targetted on a stealther that you've Listened. Area of Effect ones are fine, but you have to hit the ground at their feet. If you click on the sneak themselves, nothing happens.

Buffers will be very familiar with this annoying 'feature' of NWN from all the times they've tried to cast something on a buddy after Improved Invis has done the rounds.

Yeah griefing those Sorcs who don't have faded balls and are too stingy to take a see invisibility spell is good fun.

xordae wrote:

There's just too many places where CL is a factor. Spell damage, spell power, beating SR, duration, dispel checks. It's also cool to have a pureclassed build that can kick ass.

I used to build many casters that were multiclassed, two of them focusing on Zen Archery. But after a while I noticed how much I was missing out. I would say.. take Zen Archery, and pump everything else into casting stat and spell foci.

This is still about the Cleric, right? >_>

Ehehe, the same cleric has now turned out to be a 24/6 Cleric/Monk wielding a quarterstaff, no Divine Might. I was wondering if I should go 23/6/1 instead, for an extra feat.

I want to make a Palemaster or Wizard who focuses in necromancy... I want to multiclass to make it interesting...
The necromancy part is good for my RP, but this character will be very evil so I will need quite alot of PVP capabilites... Can people please PM me with the builds? this is a really giant thread and I don't want to go digging through it.. I hope this is the right place...
Thanks peeps.

20 wizard 10 pm... dont take less then 10 pm. You get spells and you get the winterwight which can pretty much solo everything in its path. Thats PVP enough me thinks. Besides, you're a wizzy, get out of hand cast GS or go ii.

*Shrugs* Just to kick at the build asked before. 12 Fighter, WM7, 11 BG?

I mean, you get kicked in the balls by the lack of UMD and Tumble drops. You also NEED that fighter class to get WM, but you get your BG xD. Reason it's 12 fighter is for EWS, which net's you some nice extra damage on top.

I'm assuming that you still want WM even if you swap BG out for SD. In which case you are not really getting much of an improvement, hell I'd say you're dropping some actually, since you no longer have HIPS. Though I'm not a builder for anything but Melee's really.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

*Shrugs* Just to kick at the build asked before. 12 Fighter, WM7, 11 BG?

I mean, you get kicked in the balls by the lack of UMD and Tumble drops. You also NEED that fighter class to get WM, but you get your BG xD. Reason it's 12 fighter is for EWS, which net's you some nice extra damage on top.

I'm assuming that you still want WM even if you swap BG out for SD. In which case you are not really getting much of an improvement, hell I'd say you're dropping some actually, since you no longer have HIPS. Though I'm not a builder for anything but Melee's really.

More WM, less BG and/or Fighter. Divine Might/Shield + Ubercrits FTW.

IronAngel wrote:

xordae wrote:

There's just too many places where CL is a factor. Spell damage, spell power, beating SR, duration, dispel checks. It's also cool to have a pureclassed build that can kick ass.

I used to build many casters that were multiclassed, two of them focusing on Zen Archery. But after a while I noticed how much I was missing out. I would say.. take Zen Archery, and pump everything else into casting stat and spell foci.

This is still about the Cleric, right? >_>

Ehehe, the same cleric has now turned out to be a 24/6 Cleric/Monk wielding a quarterstaff, no Divine Might. I was wondering if I should go 23/6/1 instead, for an extra feat.

yes

Magnum Opera wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

*Shrugs* Just to kick at the build asked before. 12 Fighter, WM7, 11 BG?

I mean, you get kicked in the balls by the lack of UMD and Tumble drops. You also NEED that fighter class to get WM, but you get your BG xD. Reason it's 12 fighter is for EWS, which net's you some nice extra damage on top.

I'm assuming that you still want WM even if you swap BG out for SD. In which case you are not really getting much of an improvement, hell I'd say you're dropping some actually, since you no longer have HIPS. Though I'm not a builder for anything but Melee's really.

More WM, less BG and/or Fighter. Divine Might/Shield + Ubercrits FTW.

And don't forget, the Epic WM levels that really matter are 13, 16 and 19, each is a bonus +1AB.

IronAngel wrote:

20 Clr -> 20/4/1 Clr/Ftr/Rog

14 Str
8 Con
8 Dex
14 Int (might swap 2 points to Con)
16 (24) Wis
15 (18 ) Cha

Craft Wand (RP purposes - not sure if I'll keep it or not)
Extend Spell
Maximize Spell
Extra Turning
Power Attack + Divine Might
WF+EWF+WS+EWS (Dart)
Zen Archery
Armor Skin
Great Wisdom IV

Is this better? What more should I fix? Divine Shield over Extra Turning? I guess not?

10 Con would be better, 12 Int is just enough to get enough Lore for RP, Tumble, UMD, Spellcraft and Concentration. Thing is, I wouldn't have to rebuild if I settled with 8 Con, apparently.

Would Opustus play this?

I'd consider swapping that Rogue for Bard. RP-yumnums.

Constructive questions: Where is your Discipline? Naturally you can dump it, increases the use of KD for all other classes. *sniggers at the wizard KDing you*

Yes, drop Extra turning for Divine shield.

If I got this right, you're abandoning Greater ruin for a silly thing called I Have the Rights to Call Myself Awesome (Craft wand). I love you brar.

I'd play it.

Bugger it aw and yir Maw. You were plotting another build for that beefy cleric of yours. Let me tell you: Cleric/Monk, you'll only be anti-cheesy if you wield a silly weapon. Dual-wield kamas and your own mother ought to abandon you!

Hey, I'm using a quarterstaff, and the only reason I even went Monk in the first place was so that I could wear my religious clothes instead of armor. And I'm still taking Craft Wand. I think I can safely say it's anti-cheesy!

I'm still debating, though. The ranged build would be better: pretty equal damage, but ranged instead. Much better AB. Poorer Evocation DCs (cool disablers for a support PC), and I'd have to wear plate.

Argh. I'm so torn between the coolness of David & Goliath -type Divine Might slinger and a quarterstaff clr/mnk. Too bad I can't really be a good Cleric/Monk with sling (or darts, if they look cool), because there's no damage in that. I want it all: quarterstaff, ranged attack with decent damage, and cloth armor. But I'm not sure if I should spread my energy between melee and ranged, since I'd excel in neither.

There is a simple solution for this, my friend. Zen Archery, specialise in Quarterstaff, go Str-based.

That way you won't slap yourself around the ears trying to figure which one to use most of the time, and you may still find the babemagnet sling terribly handy!

I've been wanting to make an Ogre Magi for a while (using the Ogrillion)

Anyone have suggestions?

I'm thinking some sort of Fighter / Blackguard / Sorcerer

Since he's partially charisma based, Sorcerer + Blackguard seems like a good combo, get some extra saving throws.

My trouble is working out a good balance of Sorcerer and Fighter. The main problem I see is that he'll be neither a good fighter or a sorcerer.

If you must have fighter, 2-4 levels is about all you want if even that. If you want Epic spells you will have to get 21 Sorc and 20 Chrisma... so you have to figure out what you exactly want.

Oh goodness, ogrillion is not the subrace for a spellcasting class. Both INT and CHA start at -2. Being a barely middling something and a barely middling something else is a recipe for unhappiness. Spellswords are notoriously hard to make usable even with a favorable subrace/class combo. Barbarian favored class isn't helping you either as fighter and sorc will net you an xp penalty unless they are balanced which is the worst of both worlds.

Maybe a barbarian/cleric or barbarian/druid as a shaman type pc could work. You don't get a wisdom penalty so you could swing a decent ability mix.

Sor/BG/Rog and now your talking - though the xp penalty will hurt
24/3/2 works fairly well for a more magic orientated. He'll be a decent sorceror (course depending on your stat attributes).

Something along the lines of 19/8/2 is workable with the BG levels taken pre epic to squeeze as much BAB as possible (14 i believe). Id focus on strength with this & use spells only for buffing. 9th tier spells available too You wont be anything approaching a WM but you'll still be capable.

Just a few ideas there.

Did you mean Orog? (+2 Cha)

Personally. Orog 26Sorc/2BG.

I don't like Multiclassed casters myself. I wouldn't chop off any more levels than are needed for Dark Blessing.

It really matters on what you want, I have a 26 sorc and 4 BG that uses plate armor and meles. He has around 60+ Ac, and does 40-50 damage a hit, but of course his AB sucks but TS and attacking other Mages with mele tend to solve the ab problem.

Edit: Also, being a mage AB isnt a problem because you can Bullrush, or another spell like that, then run up and whap away at the now motionless enemy.

maglorine wrote:

Oh goodness, ogrillion is not the subrace for a spellcasting class. Both INT and CHA start at -2. Being a barely middling something and a barely middling something else is a recipe for unhappiness. Spellswords are notoriously hard to make usable even with a favorable subrace/class combo. Barbarian favored class isn't helping you either as fighter and sorc will net you an xp penalty unless they are balanced which is the worst of both worlds.

Maybe a barbarian/cleric or barbarian/druid as a shaman type pc could work. You don't get a wisdom penalty so you could swing a decent ability mix.

Hey isn't there a class that casts arcane spells and doesn't get tied down to a barrel while taking it up the you know what.. be cool.. be Bard

Bard > all

Last edited by Melcen on Thu, Jul 30 2009, 11:21 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I am having a ranger with rouge levels, and I wonder how much points to put in UMD. 30? 25? 20? Is there a point when`further points become useless?

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