AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Hi all, just a QU for DM out there pleas pleas.

As the Circle of Five is technically a faction, although without forums we are still accentialy a faction. Can our members if they chose have there name changed for" free" as with other factions to "Red Wizard" or of course our titles such as Red Wizard Tharchion or Red Wizard Zatarch, it certainly makes our presence known more on an OCC level & it really helps to give the player that seance of belonging they RP to achieve.

Of course if we wear going to do this to save time i could arrange a time for as many of us to be on at once or just do it as it works i suppose NP.

look forward to your response

No ranks, but I suppose if you guys really want it blared "Red Wizard" in your name, we can't really stop you...

I think the faction belongings in your name is the most utterly stupid feature Amia has ever had.

And I blame the Shadowflames for being the originator.

The name tags can be nice, but unfortunately they always come with at least one major problem: people might metagame you even if they didn't mean to. For some factions that does not do much harm, but I imagine that the Red Wizards would like to keep somewhat low profile. However, as Tormak said, if you guys really want the tags, we can't stop you.

Pretty much all floating OOC tags can be and often are metagamed.

I don't see why these things couldn't be added to your character description, rather than your name. Stating something along the lines of "This character has the symbol of Faction X both on his armor and as a medallion around his neck".

If people really want them, why do you care so much?

Because people in my party, metagaming their faction belongings, effects me as well.

Mr Mago wrote:

Pretty much all floating OOC tags can be and often are metagamed.

I don't see why these things couldn't be added to your character description, rather than your name. Stating something along the lines of "This character has the symbol of Faction X both on his armor and as a medallion around his neck".

Dumping it into the character description takes more effort for very little reward since it can still be metagamed.

Although I would advise the Red Wizards not to dump such into their nametag ... I know whenever I see that I assume immediately that the character is bearing obvious markings denoting them as such.

Don't red wizards display there colors(Red And Gold) anyway?

Metagaming can affect you in ways that are not readily apparent.

Someone else can do it, but to another they can 'legitimately' receive information IC. They not knowing how it was done, heresay and whatnot. It plays out like a game of telephone which really sucks, particularly if it has to be tracked down and delt with in an OOC messy way as has happened in the past.

Secondly, it also is very difficult for people to not make associative patterns and come to a conclusion once they 'know' something.
This is compounded by having it right above your head. Having it so readily in their face is going to just facilitate that, even if subconsciously.

From personal experience seeing what metagaming has done to secret factions in the past on the server... I really, really, suggest that you heed the DM's advice, otherwise it'll take something fun for you and make it not fun. Secret Organizations should keep a low profile both IC and OOC.

Being found out and punished IC for IC mistakes is one thing, and can be great fun.

Being found out and having an IC/OOC (censored)-storm is not.

J.G. wrote:

Don't red wizards display there colors(Red And Gold) anyway?

Not if they're banned under pain of death, well unless they're really egotistical, power-mad, or suicidal.

Well the idea is that when we are on official Red Wizard business or for some reason need to be know we do wear our red/black/gold robes/outfits, i do understand the obvious level of meta that can come from name tags, however when we don't want to be known as red wizards we often take on alternate "persona's" valkin used to often pose as a noble from waterdeep, then there was a time he dressed as a saladrian.

Saying that i know it could make all that harder when i have "Red Wizard" displayed above our head's, but in saying that you have a revers effect by having the name, it is seen by many as a icon it somewhat shows you as "official or important or "real" not just any old 1st level rolled up that just started RP as there is a certain level of RP required with many people to achieve such a name.

Although these "Reactions" might also be considered meta in the fact that if i don't show anything at all in my description or state it and i am instantly give respect or disrespect well it could cause problems, having said all of this some of what you have said has maid me question the idea.

I think i will have a few words with the members and see what they believe, i was kind of hoping to add the NAME to some RP wear the character is Tattooed with an official Tat stating they are of the Cabal in amia, something highly magical and unique to each person that only the circle has on record of whos tattoo is what, that way none can... imitate.

But i defiantly see you point and respect the fact that people meta far to often even without knowing it, but hey it is a game, i guess i will ask the crew and go over some options before we start requesting it in-game to avoid any problems, also having said that i fear if we did this yet again we would be ... shall we say earning further discredit to our faction with those who already don't smile on us, im trying to read lightly lol but still move foward on these things, thx to all for your input tho, it has helped more often than hinder.

Well, we could stop people from having faction tags in their names, if you allow me to get all nitpicky about could's, should's and would's...

Anyway, it's your choice. If I was a Red Wizard, I probably wouldn't put it in my name, because of the history of the Red Wizards on Amia. I recommend you research that, btw, in case you didn't yet.

Mr Mago wrote:

I think the faction belongings in your name is the most utterly stupid feature Amia has ever had.

And I blame the Shadowflames for being the originator.

As far as I knew, your last name is changed to Shadowflame if you join, rather than having it as a faction tag, since my one has his last name added to Shadowflame like a double-barrel, so it's Seth Dracross-Shadowflame. Well, he was born into the family, but it's the idea I got from it.

Floating names are a problem, period. You can metagame the name, the spelling, the nicknames, the organizations, the factions, the gender... on some, the likelyhood are they elf, human, orc [some are kind-of obvious], and so on so forth and...blehg.

If you don't like tags in the name, I know I've seen there is an unofficial add-on that hides all those floating names. You have a solution if you want it for yourself.

Anywhoo, it is easier to have a DM name-change you than needing to do a bio-change request everytime something switches with your affiliation or rank in a faction. Heck, a name-change is far faster, expecially for those who've done it before and don't need the DM to explain it to them. Tormak does a great job updating bios and such, but do we really need to pile that many more minor edits?

Torzeng wrote:

Floating names are a problem, period. You can metagame the name, the spelling, the nicknames, the organizations, the factions, the gender... on some, the likelyhood are they elf, human, orc [some are kind-of obvious], and so on so forth and...blehg.

Though, having the character name hovering there is a pretty good compromise of making the game more playable by human beings incapable of using actual IC information (faces etc) for recognising friends and foes in RP, and exposing as little metagameable information as possible.

Although I stand with Mago about the metagaming potential of factional affiliations in names, that isn't really the reason I don't like them. If a person puts that in their name, then I fully expect that it is a "calling card" to the person they're playing with to legitimately metagame. I'm a War Knight, because I have a huge symbol of Tempus carved into the flesh on my chest and all of my weapons have caked blood on them. I'm a Triadic Knight because I have their standard on all of the armors I wear. I'm with the Shadowflame family because I smell like I just had sex with a dragon. And soforth.

The real reason I don't like them is just because I think they're lame and unnecessary. Completely stodgy personal opinion. I don't dis people for having them, and I regularly add them to people's names as a DM. I just think that our collective naming conventions can be so much classier.

I'm indifferent to it. For some, it's not a big deal and is actually helpful. For others, like this faction, it could be a total nightmare for the players. Personally, besides my Drow having the Kenlyl house name, I don't have any tags at all. The Kenlyl thing is kinda a good thing, imo, though. Being that there aren't many Eilsitraeen house Drow running around, I stick out so I can help those looking for us. The bad side, Lolthites might come after me automatically. The latter has yet to happen though (That I know of, anyway). But it doesn't matter since she usually has symbols of Eilistraee on her staffs and sometimes exposed on her armor.

The point is, like I said, it makes little difference, in a negative fashion, for some. For others, it's a nightmare. Think about your situation and decide if it's a wise decision. And, contrary to popular belief, I think it's a bad decision for some Good and Neutral factions too. It's not something isolated to Evil factions.

I personally think that anything beyond "Firstname 'nickname' Lastname" (or likewise realistic constructs) sucks bollocks. I don't fancy singular names, animal names, nouns, high fantasy tackiness, and a lot more. I will admit that I am a name Nazi, though.

Actually, I don't like nicknames either.

I see faction names as free advertising and its quite cool looking on to see how a faction is doing at the time.

What purpose does the faction being included in your characters name serve?

I'm just wondering, because I haven't found any good logical reason for it apart from ego boosting and potential show off.

As far as credibility goes, the Church of Bane has never had anything resembling the faction in the name of our characters, and we've managed rather well.

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As far as credibility goes, the Church of Bane has never had anything resembling the faction in the name of our characters, and we've managed rather well.

I didn't say it was essential but on the flip side being on my Horsemen i've had so many tells from people saying. "Wow lots of horsemen on something going on?", "Who are the horsemen?", "Psst i am interesting in joining the horsemen who should I contact"

It helps

Those are all questions that could have been asked IC. And there you have the problem with faction tags in the names, it creates metagaming and nothing but.

Nametags are whacky if you would react otherwise than your char would. A levelling necromancer encountering a Kelly somehwere, for example.

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Those are all questions that could have been asked IC. And there you have the problem with faction tags in the names, it creates metagaming and nothing but.

No they aint.

If he knows about the horsemen OOCly. But his character doesn't know of them ICly him asking something along the lines of "Psst i am interesting in joining the horsemen who should I contact" Is a way of asking for a RP run in. He cant just cross his fingers and hope that someone will mention the horesmen to him ICly.

If i'm on any of my character feel free to send me a tell if you want to bump into me.

For the third question it's all well and good. But "What are the Horsemen" is just a cheap way of finding out about something without lifting a finger ICly, and the "Lots of horsemen on, is something going down?" is a most obvious case of metagamed information. And as it is with information like that, chances are that it will spread and suddenly five Triadic knights pop up out of nowhere and no one will admit to be the one who told them about this secret operation.

I've had this happen on multiple occasions even without name-tags, but it's just like an open door invitation.

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And as it is with information like that, chances are that it will spread and suddenly five Triadic knights pop up out of nowhere and no one will admit to be the one who told them about this secret operation.

I know your just using that as an example but. If ever we're doing something come on triadic knights come dazzle us. Was the whole orginal idea behind taxing skull crags was to spark something from you guys (Means good guys in general).

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"What are the Horsemen"

True it is a touch on the lazy side. But for new players I have no problem whatsoever in explain we are a faction. I aint gonna go into full detail over the tell but I'd defiently use it as a means of recruitment.

Sure, if you guys have no problem with intervention from the good guys then it's not even a bother. But I'm speaking out of principle here. It makes it look like OOCly received information would be a legitimate source to act upon, and it's really not. Ideally there shouldn't be any OOC information floating around at all, but you can't curb it that well. So even if, let's say, the good guys pop out of the underbrush in an unbelievable situation where you're interrogating one of their men at the end of the world, so to speak.. you can be okay with it, but I encourage you to pull them by the ear about being OOC cheapskates anyways.

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So even if, let's say, the good guys pop out of the underbrush in an unbelievable situation where you're interrogating one of their men at the end of the world, so to speak.. you can be okay with it, but I encourage you to pull them by the ear about being OOC cheapskates anyways.

Okay so we've established there is a huge difference between "Oh look theres lots of horsemen on I'll jump on my paladin just in case they try something"

To

"Oh look lots of horsemen are on 'Hey where and what exactly are you guys doing' (logs in with paladin and tell mates and runs to said location)

You dont get that from faction names.

If you gents have some bad blood to air about that, or accusations of meta gaming, I'd recommend taking them up with a DM.

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If you gents have some bad blood to air about that, or accusations of meta gaming, I'd recommend taking them up with a DM.

Maybe its the way we're coming across but I don't think either of us are getting at each other or refering ot a specific incident.

"Look, there's 3 new Defenders on. Let's ask Player Bob, Player Zing and Player Mustafa to go on as their Banites, so that we can find 'em and smack 'em."

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

*Paladin Emily encounters cyricist "John Schmoe - Follower of the Black Sun"*

Emily - "Well hello there... what do we have here?"
*John is wearing a pink dress with flowers on it.*
John - "Hello, I'm just taking a happy stroll."
Emily - "Haven't we met before?"
John - "No, I don't think so."
Emily - "Perhaps not. So... are you up to any foul business?"
John - "Not really. I'm just bringing these flowers to my loved one."
Emily - "Aren't you one of those cyricists, that have been said to torture and murder innocent children?"
John - "What? Heavens no! I would never do such a thing. What makes you think that?"
Emily - "Speak up you wyrm, or I'll slay right here and now!"
John - ". . ."

Quote:

Emily - "Well hello there... what do we have here?"
*John is wearing a pink dress with flowers on it.*
John - "Hello, I'm just taking a happy stroll."
Emily - "Haven't we met before?"
John - "No, I don't think so."
Emily - "Perhaps not. So... are you up to any foul business?"
John - "Not really. I'm just bringing these flowers to my loved one."
Emily - "Aren't you one of those cyricists, that have been said to torture and murder innocent children?"
John - "What? Heavens no! I would never do such a thing. What makes you think that?"
Emily - "Speak up you wyrm, or I'll slay right here and now!"
John - ". . ."

I do hope this doesn't actually go on. I mean come on thats so extreme.

Also their are people with Faction names in their names who have joined opposing factions succusfully.

Last edited by hendrack on Tue, Jul 21 2009, 20:16 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Nex_addo wrote:

I do hope this doesn't actually go on. I mean come on thats so extreme.

Also their are people with Faction names in their names who have joined opposing factions succusfully.

Back in the days with the old portal wand...

*Follower Evil comes across follower Good*

Evil disguised, but with nametag: Hello
Good: Hello

*3 pallys step out of the Good guys shadow, suddenly*

harhar

If those people join an opposing faction, the faction will instantly know that it's a rat. It's not only detrimental to RP, it's outright destructive when OOC knowledge is forced on you in that manner.

It gives you a strange feeling of satisfaction to see lots of others in the player list with the same faction tag as your PC.
Not to mention the feeling when you hit TAB in a faction meeting and read the faction name all over the screen.

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If those people join an opposing faction, the faction will instantly know that it's a rat. It's not only detrimental to RP, it's outright destructive when OOC knowledge is forced on you in that manner.

Hate to break it to you. But its worked like a treat.

Quote:

Back in the days with the old portal wand...

*Follower Evil comes across follower Good*

Evil disguised, but with nametag: Hello
Good: Hello

*3 pallys step out of the Good guys shadow, suddenly*

harhar

Okay I have only seen this happen once and that was evil guys porting in for a fight. The tags weren't even there. So regardless of the tags or not if they want this to happen it probable will. (Remember you've also got character bio's'

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Hate to break it to you. But its worked like a treat.

Maybe it has, but then it has because the opposing faction did know that it was a rat and felt forced to "play along like good boys" and not exploit this OOC information, leading them to never investigate into the man in the first place. It's the other extreme of metagaming, and both make it unnecessarily hard on people.

I would like to ask one serious question:

You state that all your Red Wizard PCs in your faction are "obvious and official."

Is that permission to assume we can tell, by looking at you, that you are a Red Wizard, and react accordingly?

Oh... I almost forgot. We also have this old goodie:

[tell] Thomas the Victim: Hello? Are you a defender?
[tell] Defender Gunhild Pallysword: Yes. Why?
[tell] Thomas the Victim: We are trapped in the Forest of Despair, and there's monsters everywhere!
[tell] Defender Gunhild Pallysword: Do I know you?
[tell] Thomas the Victim: No. But I was told that the Defenders help people, and I saw you in the player list. Are you on your way?
[tell] Defender Gunhild Pallysword: . . .

That's not a result of nametags though, any famously 'good' or 'evil' PC could do that. It's almost somewhat infamously a devious trick done by evils to scare off people who might actually walk by under the guise of metagaming...

Yeah, but in that example, the Defender wasn't known by name, but by its nametag.

If you come to think about it, not that many goody-goodies (nor evil evuls) are known among newer players, but the tags are a red line direction for OOC help tells.

Kald and I had more than one conversation about this, in which he explained how random players would send all kinds of metagaming tells to him, asking him to suddenly appear at inappropiate places to help the person at despair to be rescued.

And that apparently began before he got (in)famous.

Adding nametags to characters can fit in certain situations. Drow houses and Shadowflames come to mind first, but any group where you actually adopt the last name of a family as your last name.

I see the OOC desire to show affiliation with a certain group, but IC'ly it doesn't make much sense to me. When you ask someone their name, they don't usually attach their job to it (with exceptions for a doctor or such). I look at it like this... the name shouldn't be included if your character wouldn't introduce themselves to someone by the name in the tag.

I suppose it all comes down to personal preference. If you don't mind dealing with the potential metagaming that can happen from having a certain faction tag in your name, then go for it.

Mr Mago wrote:

Yeah, but in that example, the Defender wasn't known by name, but by its nametag.

If you come to think about it, not that many goody-goodies (nor evil evuls) are known among newer players, but the tags are a red line direction for OOC help tells.

Kald and I had more than one conversation about this, in which he explained how random players would send all kinds of metagaming tells to him, asking him to suddenly appear at inappropiate places to help the person at despair to be rescued.

And that apparently began before he got (in)famous.

Yeah, I hear you there.

TormakSaber wrote:

I would like to ask one serious question:

You state that all your Red Wizard PCs in your faction are "obvious and official."

Is that permission to assume we can tell, by looking at you, that you are a Red Wizard, and react accordingly?

right...

when we are wearing our red/gold/black we "look" like red wizards, tho still its up tot he individual red wizard if he or she chooses to have symbols of thay or other markings such as tattoos visible tot he public, valkin sometimes has a symbol of the Red Wizards on his chest but not all the time, it depends who he is dealing with and wear he is to ensure the right effect is reached for any given situation.

Then I highly suggest you do not add a faction tag to your names.

xordae wrote:

Those are all questions that could have been asked IC. And there you have the problem with faction tags in the names, it creates metagaming and nothing but.

If you read my character's nametag for faction then you would not be metagaming - it is there because my character always bears obvious markings that she is part of said faction (in this case Ame is the only one of mine, and she's a Sally).
I have it there because I want people to know at a glance that she's a Sally, and for people to be able to recognise the signs that can't actually be seen on the model itself, rather than "woman in generic white dress" - the characters can see details more than that (unless, of course, we are assuming that the characters see only what is present, but hen I've no idea how they tell the difference between each other).

Mr Mago wrote:

"Look, there's 3 new Defenders on. Let's ask Player Bob, Player Zing and Player Mustafa to go on as their Banites, so that we can find 'em and smack 'em."

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

*Paladin Emily encounters cyricist "John Schmoe - Follower of the Black Sun"*

Emily - "Well hello there... what do we have here?"
*John is wearing a pink dress with flowers on it.*
John - "Hello, I'm just taking a happy stroll."
Emily - "Haven't we met before?"
John - "No, I don't think so."
Emily - "Perhaps not. So... are you up to any foul business?"
John - "Not really. I'm just bringing these flowers to my loved one."
Emily - "Aren't you one of those cyricists, that have been said to torture and murder innocent children?"
John - "What? Heavens no! I would never do such a thing. What makes you think that?"
Emily - "Speak up you wyrm, or I'll slay right here and now!"
John - ". . ."

I've never seen anything to that degree, and I do hope that it never occurs.

TormakSaber wrote:

Then I highly suggest you do not add a faction tag to your names.

I'm with Tormak in this case, Talia - to be a faction, you don't need a nametag. In this circumstance I think having the tag will do you more harm than good.

Yurell wrote:

I've never seen anything to that degree, and I do hope that it never occurs.

I've seen it far too many times. Faaar too many.

Faction Named chandge

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