AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - *Random Topic* Evil vs Just being an *censored*

Just because your character is evil, doesn't mean they've crossed the Moral Event Horizon yet. One of the classic rookie mistakes is to try and jump in playing a character who is already gone beyond redemption.

Portraying a character requires effort and therefore portraying a character who is so far removed from what you know to be good, requires more effort.

I find it's much more fun to play a character who has a conscience (whether they choose to ignore it or not) because it's something that I'm quite familiar with. It means that they may commit an evil act and then feel guilty about it and then finally do something to amend their actions if their conscience bugs them so much.

What I think would be nice is more consistant conflict in Amia... like a spooky forest, filled with a PC faction, that no one dares to enter because the rag-tag mercenaries or brigands will rob you blind. Fueds, Grudges are nice examples of some constant conflict, but in most cases a side usually wins... whether its an army of good-doers storming the "once secretive" Banite hideout to kill them all or the Kohl Defenders forcing their righteous goodness upon an evil person, it never lasts.

I rather enjoyed the times the Banites got inspired to take over the Crags and whatnot... and the supposed union of the evil factions to storm Kohl... although i dont remember if it ever really happened.... but planning it was still fun.

Maybe there can be some epic Good vs Evil battle involving many people... or maybe not

... just some thoughts to marinate on

IMO, you need a conflict between two major NPCs which then unite or assign evil/good characters to either side, giving out quests and missions.

That can get big things happening.

I do not like the general good versus evil. There are often conflicts which arise between noble people, or the rotten. It does not have to be outright war, but conflict. Cyrcists against Banites, Winyans against Elistreeans, Lumberjacks against Druids, etc. Evil against good is boring in my opinion, as there is more than just the black and white.

With all the evils in the world, why can't you just summon up one.. You want it? Make it happen.

The DMs are here to facilitate Player Character's actions outside engine capabilities. More oft than not they don't get to do that! I know they'd love to. Just don't -expect- things to go your way, OOCly. Just try to do it, and have fun.

And... any area where PCs will be 'killed and looted' sounds like a horrible griefing area that'd give DMs no small amount of headaches and screenshots/IMs to deal with.

People can't die permanently, grudges are forgotten because people haven't closely associated with pain that their characters feel, its a difficult thing to do mind you, but its important to getting into a role.

Above all: If you want constant Conflict, do constant conflict causing things.

Subtle evil exists. You just don't see it.

Adding a good/evil alignment axis was one of the worst things that ever could have been done for DnD. Should have stuck to the far less arbitrary law/chaos axis.

The good to evil axis is important, angels and devils are different. Its just there is more to it than just the evil and the good.

As a powergamer who RP's, I like the alignment grid. It adds an interesting set of variables to making a character.

As a pure RPer, it's complete arse.

A pure powergamer won't care - Paladin/Align-Shift/Bard/Palemaster, lulz and so on.

Kinda on topic, kinda not.. but I wish the good & evil themes on Amia were reversed. What I meant to say is...I wish Amia was primarily a evil place where good ppl had to be heros, instead of what it is now where Amia is primarily a good place & evil people have to rise up against the good people. To me Amia is more reminiscent of a RL amusement park than a FR setting.

Um, Good is quite prominent in FR outside of Thay. Take a look at a map sometime and do what Mago is so fond out, counting the 'good' towns against the 'evil' towns. If you do not go to the Underdark, you will find that Good (not even Neutral, but Good) is the overbearingly dominant force here.

Anyways, there are more evil players *and* characters on Amia than good ones. The issue, once again, as always stated in these topics, is that ultimately good has small issues working together since in the end they want the same thing. But evil KILLS EACH OTHER.

Quote:

Well... no. If Evil's losing then they're doing it right.

It means that they've scared enough people to be ganged up on. As they say it doesn't matter how big you are, if you frighten enough people to cause a mob you've signed your own lynching.

Evil can win. They just have issues maintaining a win, because more and more people get pissed off.

Reversing the trend does not solve a problem, it merely makes evil players happy and content and creates malcontents of the =good players, who are now in the position you feel you are currently in. Many of you are like "I wouldn't want anyone to put up with the BS I do as an evil player."... but you insist that the Good playyrs must feel this because it would be "more correct".

Im quite happy when my evil character loses. But Its very odd, when you win in pvp as evil, then you get tells saying lag, lag, dude rematch, thats against the rules (hasting oneself)...

I think some people play good so they dont ever have to lose permanently cause its how they are...?

Nah, I think thats a problem on both sides.

GreatPigeon wrote:

Im quite happy when my evil character loses. But Its very odd, when you win in pvp as evil, then you get tells saying lag, lag, dude rematch, thats against the rules (hasting oneself)...

I think some people play good so they dont ever have to lose permanently cause its how they are...?

Ummm, evil can't lose permanently either, you know...

Yes it can. As has been fairly well discussed here, good tends to band together no matter what--the force of "good" seems to be a literal force. However, evildoers are stereotypically working for their own gains, and thus are fragmented. Thus, there is no ONE force of evil, and a given evil entity has a 100% chance of eventually losing permanently, whereas good as a binding force between entities always ends up coming back for another round (and winning that round).

I urge people to not confuse being a monster, or inhuman with being evil. You don't need to dress in black. You don't need to cackle, you do not need wanton murder or gore, or blood to be evil.

In my mind the best villain is unflaggable, indefatigable in their action, idea, concept of what they feel is right. They do it because they are devoted to their cause. Their view of how things are. Not because its what the 'people' think is right, but that is the way things should be in their mind...for the greater good of whatever agenda they try to advance.

TormakSaber wrote:

GreatPigeon wrote:

Im quite happy when my evil character loses. But Its very odd, when you win in pvp as evil, then you get tells saying lag, lag, dude rematch, thats against the rules (hasting oneself)...

I think some people play good so they dont ever have to lose permanently cause its how they are...?

Ummm, evil can't lose permanently either, you know...

Ah good point, I meant that IG since we cant just run around and kill anyone then we cant smite good. Evil however is defeated and draws into a corner and nurses its wounds. Like several times posted in here evil wins... Good regroups gets a lynchmob, a posse, trains harder and then wins.

Dwagin wrote:

I urge people to not confuse being a monster, or inhuman with being evil. You don't need to dress in black. You don't need to cackle, you do not need wanton murder or gore, or blood to be evil.

In my mind the best villain is unflaggable, indefatigable in their action, idea, concept of what they feel is right. They do it because they are devoted to their cause. Their view of how things are. Not because its what the 'people' think is right, but that is the way things should be in their mind...for the greater good of whatever agenda they try to advance.

Because If you are that type of evil its really awesome! Because in your mind your the holy inquisitor, and the paladins are the pargons of evil!

xordae wrote:

What ticks me off after reading this thread is that people will just assume "Oho, he's evil, he is bound to do something terrible some time in the future. We'll now ostracize him." I don't know if you had that happen to you, I've never had it happen to me. But it would flat out give me rage to have them take an alignment and reduce your character to that. There's a whole lot more going on than just alignment. Paladins murder people that aren't worthy of life in their eyes, and bad guys come home to their apartment after a robbery and help that sick lady next door with rearranging her furniture, because they always hear her cough at night and feel bad. Or whatever.

I've never had to keep an alignment secret, because I think it's a retarded concept. No one but the player knows about alignment, and ideally the player just plays the character and does not, outside of this, try to alter the impression that his character makes on the world. The character may try to create a false impression of himself, if he has ulterior motives or a naughty plan or something. But this is not a symptom of evil, merely of a character with a secret.

well said. Very well said.

Dwagin wrote:

I urge people to not confuse being a monster, or inhuman with being evil. You don't need to dress in black. You don't need to cackle, you do not need wanton murder or gore, or blood to be evil.

In my mind the best villain is unflaggable, indefatigable in their action, idea, concept of what they feel is right. They do it because they are devoted to their cause. Their view of how things are. Not because its what the 'people' think is right, but that is the way things should be in their mind...for the greater good of whatever agenda they try to advance.

This. For some reason whenever I think of the concept of evil. I do not think of some mass murderer as being the end all beat all definition of evil. I just see evil as someone's selfish actions to promote their own beliefs or ambitions. Whether it be covertly or out in the open. Evil does not have to fit into any pre-desribed precedent.

TormakSaber wrote:

GreatPigeon wrote:

Im quite happy when my evil character loses. But Its very odd, when you win in pvp as evil, then you get tells saying lag, lag, dude rematch, thats against the rules (hasting oneself)...

I think some people play good so they dont ever have to lose permanently cause its how they are...?

Ummm, evil can't lose permanently either, you know...

Your right, but it can have massively uber npc's suddenly appear, and threaten to have bases taken away. something you don't see from good, but then again, maybe that is because good evil rp is hardly ever watched hence the view is squewed in a certian way

Really Evil Pigeon wrote:

but then again, maybe that is because good evil rp is hardly ever watched hence the view is squewed in a certian way

Good RP has nothing to do with good or evil alginments, its just Decent RP.

There was a thread discussing this a few months ago. When I get home, I will try finding and linking it here, since the opinions are nearly the same as they are being here - even though the posters are different.

Ok maybe I was to subtle. there are way to many tards playing evil characters,, well not nessary tards. I was one once. Aluniira is a big little tard, but people who start like evil because it's cool and what ever, they then give it a bad view, hence it is looked upon negetively

Really Evil Pigeon wrote:

Ok maybe I was to subtle. there are way to many tards playing evil characters,, well not nessary tards. I was one once. Aluniira is a big little tard, but people who start like evil because it's cool and what ever, they then give it a bad view, hence it is looked upon negetively

That happens on all sides, chaotic, lawful, good, evil. There are paladins who make me cringe, there are those that I meet that make go "wow". Same goes for tieflings, orcs, feys, necromancers, dragon disciples, etc. But remembering how I started makes me cringe too, so <.<

Logicality wrote:

Adding a good/evil alignment axis was one of the worst things that ever could have been done for DnD. Should have stuck to the far less arbitrary law/chaos axis.

I strongly disagree. Good / Evil ideologies are just as important - the biaxial alignment table was the best thing about D&D, I love it farm more than the linear 4th-ed one.

Phearnun wrote:

The good to evil axis is important, angels and devils are different. Its just there is more to it than just the evil and the good.

This. Law / Chaos makes it possible for a criminal to be good just as Good / Evil allows a Tyrant to be lawful - people in general don't like their heroes to be painted with the same brush as their villains.

Logicality wrote:

Yes it can. As has been fairly well discussed here, good tends to band together no matter what--the force of "good" seems to be a literal force. However, evildoers are stereotypically working for their own gains, and thus are fragmented. Thus, there is no ONE force of evil, and a given evil entity has a 100% chance of eventually losing permanently, whereas good as a binding force between entities always ends up coming back for another round (and winning that round).

I disagree - evil can't lose permanently. Even with all the united forces of 'good' the Hells and the Abyss still exist to corrupt people, there are always monsters roaming around, people are bound by laws and morals that make tyranny possible.
There are entire planes that embody soul-crushing evil, just as there are planes that physically embody purest good. The fact that evil is beaten time and time again (from an IC viewpoint - OOCly it happens because we like good guys winning) just goes to show how hard it is to eradicate, for no matter how many times you lop off its head another arises.

And even if we just limit our view to Amia - how many evil groups are there? A lot. No matter how many times good bands together, the evil groups still exist.

Really Evil Pigeon wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

GreatPigeon wrote:

Im quite happy when my evil character loses. But Its very odd, when you win in pvp as evil, then you get tells saying lag, lag, dude rematch, thats against the rules (hasting oneself)...

I think some people play good so they dont ever have to lose permanently cause its how they are...?

Ummm, evil can't lose permanently either, you know...

Your right, but it can have massively uber npc's suddenly appear, and threaten to have bases taken away. something you don't see from good, but then again, maybe that is because good evil rp is hardly ever watched hence the view is squewed in a certian way

...

Black Caravan vs. Kelemvorites.

Ne'sek.

Kohlingen.

Wharftown.

Cordor.

Get back to me next time you think only evils suffer conequences.

Quote:

The fact that evil is beaten time and time again (from an IC viewpoint - OOCly it happens because we like good guys winning)

No. OOCly it happens because that's how the IC goes: The Good Guys team up and monkey stomp you.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

The fact that evil is beaten time and time again (from an IC viewpoint - OOCly it happens because we like good guys winning)

No. OOCly it happens because that's how the IC goes: The Good Guys team up and monkey stomp you.

I wasn't referring to Amia, I meant from a narrative perspective.

The narrative perspective happens quite a bit on Amia, and considering ultimately the discussion is about what happens on amia, I think it was a relevant comment.

Well, yes, on Amia good guys band together and kill bad guys, that's how it works.

That doesn't HAVE to be how it works though... was my point. You can end the cycle.

I've only seen a few really LE characters in my brothers and Is time here on the server.

One, is Frey, the other the banites, a third would be my brothers character Damien who was far from Chaotic Stupid, other then that I would say most of the other evil factions are 80% Chaotic Stupid and 20% Lawful Cunning.

//-Daniel

TormakSaber wrote:

That doesn't HAVE to be how it works though... was my point. You can end the cycle.

Agreed, as someone who plays all evil pcs, its quite easy to set up alliances and the like and plan your ass off. It just takes time, as well getting the dms involved throughout the process so you know what is allowed and what is not allowed.

Really Evil Pigeon wrote:

well once playinga subtle evil i can say.. it is ever so often ruined by metagamming, when I kepted Keri's alighment secret for the longest time.. no one even suspected her.. I started stating in tells and such.. suddenly she's on a list of evil chars. if you wish to play evil on amia, you have to be ready to play it half heartedly. you put your full heart into it will rip it out and eat it before your eyes

Typically you shouldn't tell people that your character is evil if you want to go down the sneaky evil route. Espically in OOC, people can't help but treat characters differently with certain knowledge.

Of course the instant you summon anything the game's up (the "no one knows I'm evil" game, that is, not the whole game).

Last edited by Anctus on Thu, Jul 16 2009, 15:51 PM, edited 1 time in total.

TormakSaber wrote:

I would actually find a character more interesting in that he is evil, knows he is evil, doesn't bother rationalizing this to himself, but simply accepts that his humanity is lost, his morals are gone, and his view of the world is not socially acceptable.

... Not to toot my own horn or anything. *ahem.*

w0rd.
Now, by the time I got there, I had thought of something constructive to write. By the time I was done reading the whole thing, I had forgotten about it. Stupid Evil, or just evil without memory? >.o

Anctus wrote:

Stupid Evil, or just evil without memory? >.o

Indifferent evil. One of the best kinds.

Yossarin wrote:

Anctus wrote:

Stupid Evil, or just evil without memory? >.o

Indifferent evil. One of the best kinds.

Why thank you.

Being a jerk with a heart of gold sure is fun, for once.

I play on another server, set in Thay. The interesting thing about having
a server setting where most people are evil or neutral as opposed to
good or neutral is that for the most part, the evil ones arent such big
jerks and the good ones arent so zealous.

But yet, it somehow feels so very much, right. My Chaotic Evil Cyricist
priest were rather friendly towards a Neutral Evil Rogue. The characters
had respect for eachother as friends, even though they were both
despicable people they werent just jerks.

Likewise, on another server altogether. I had a swearing, alcoholic and
plain rude sailor type character who was Chaotic Good due to the fact
that he refused to back down from a fight when someone who just
didnt deserve getting beat up was beaten up. He always stood up for
the small guy and knocked pretentious people down a nock.

Its all about personality, and that goes deeper than alignment, alignment
might at some times give a hint about personality, but its far from its
alpha and omega. More people I met in the game liked the Chaotic Evil
character than the Chaotic Good one. Simply because the Chaotic Evil
one was more polite and refined. The Chaotic Good one couldnt stand
people acting in other ways than they felt and had nothing against speaking
openly about anything.

That's something I found interesting about evil. I played Xal for years as evil. Yes, he didn't act evil, he would be a bloody goofy git most of the time actually. However, if approached with gold for someones life, he'd take the gold in a heartbeat. His inherent being was evil. The fact that few people put him in the suggestion that show's he was an evil tit doesn't meant he wasn't evil, just that he rarely showed that side.

Alternatively Calin, my War Knight who follows the Red Knight, and is (Meant to be) lawful neutral has great respect for Darth Fatty (Mago's character) because the tactics and approachs he showed in battle were in his mind ingenious, and quite worthy of his respect. Alternatively, he doesn't have the same respect for some of his fellow War Knights, since they tend to be more chaotic.

A good thing to remember when playing evil or good is that while there may be two teirs of alignment shifts between you and your enemy, you may very well be on the same teir of morality. Lawful Good vs Lawful Evil for example.

Random Topic Evil vs Just being an censored

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