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Dwagin
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 Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 18:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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I've a few questions, as sometimes I end up in situations in which I need to be the aggressor in PvP with some of my characters. I have some situations which have come up similarly concept wise, which I need clarifing from the DM staff as to what is fair game and what is not.
1. I am playing Rras, he is a half-red dragon, someone insults him in passing. He of course is angry due to his bloodline and personality and seeks to educate the person on the incorrectness of their sentiments. (If it were not for the rule he would simply pounce and nom, however. But one must make concessions.)
They engage in RP responses, and he speaks with them but they continue walking, but harbor no intent to recant and show proper respect that he Demands.
My question would be in this situation, if they continue to walk is that not a simple dismissal of the in character out? Ergo a null answer or a 'no'? And if that is so am I within my rights to simply hostile and let the scales and claws fly?
2. I've a Champion of a Good deity that dispises Tyranny, not quite on the line of 'Kelemvorite undead hate' but still hates the concept of keeping a corpse around like a pet, or monsters under domination as a pet: What would be the reccomended course of action if running into said situation? Demand they unsummon it, or release it? If they refuse does that mean I should just cut it down? Was that their 'legal' IC PVP out? Its very much against my character's ethos and he'd not let it go unchallenged. Even if it was a good aligned person dominating a creature.
3. Does an IC attack sans engine: ergo with dice rolls/to grapple and inflict harm/capture a PC also remain judged by this rule? Ergo they must be given an IC out of it, before such occurs? It is a form of PvP that requires one? I assume that infractions in Cordor under the eye of a guard PC would nullify your out in that situation, if they require one.
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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Falling Spider
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 19:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Mar 2009
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The first one sounds like you're trying very hard to fight someone. Walking away would be them leaving the situation, and thus, abandoning PvP.
The second one isn't as clearly that, killing the caster is mostly okay, if your character knows for a fact that it's the caster's summon. I'd just kill the summon though, so I don't ruin someone's day.
_________________
Gahnn Bluetusk
Aleksandr Vespermouth II
"Malnutrition is scarier than any beastie."
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Phantom-D
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 19:54 PM |
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
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This is kind of the case of balancing IC and OOC.
Some people are new and might think just walking away is a good idea if they aren't familiar with why you are mad. Chasing them down and PvPing them is true ICly but kind of jerkish OOCly. Also, if you do this a lot then it really looks like you are just trying to PvP anyone that looks at you funny.
The second is another version of this. If you are strolling through a hunting ground and telling people to unsummon stuff or you'll tear their head off, you are really only hurting them from leveling. An IC out would be an Unsummoning of the creature, but an RP'ed unsummoning of the creature.
Allow the mage to say *Opens a gate in this very plane and bids his riot rousing companion back from whence it came*. This way you are happy and he can go back to hunting.
The third, yeah, don't be starting grapples or throwing regular attacks in rolls without following the PvP rules. Because there is not difference in "Right Click -> Attack" and "Jumps at you, a punch aimed at your head"
Generally speaking, resorting to PvP doesn't really do much. Since everyone can respawn, there is no risk. It generally is just a bother for everyone involved. This is assuming the RP is run of the mill. There isn't much hardcore feeling or meaning to "You didn't bow..." *devastating critical.* If you built up to it, yeah it can be epic.
The type of PvP you are talking about isn't really the fulfilling PvP. It is the type where you are just walking from A to B, see a summon and threaten death if it isn't unsummoned. It seems more empty, but ICly justified. There again is the balance of OOC and IC. Do you stop it ICly because OOCly it generally isn't a very fun time or do you stay true to IC? Either is valid.
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Xaviera
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 20:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Location: Temple of Love
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Speaking only to the first point, IC consequences for IC actions. You cant insult someone with impunity and walk away just because of PvP settings. The 'IC out' in that case is apologizing to Rras. Failing to do so and running off means he may stomp up to them next time he sees them (at which time they have the same option to save their skin). Perhaps they will learn not to do it again.
Xavi has occasionally been hostile to Banites in town (surrounded by guards  ), but if they ever jumped her outside the walls she'd probably have to take lumps for mouthing off to them. Fortunately they've never called her on it. _________________  ~Sharess on AmiaWiki~Priestess, politician, prostitute "[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer BoltAmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)
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Zante
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 20:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
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Just leaving should be an acceptable out. Wasn't it even one of Ruce's examples to avoid PvP? Just leave, no spells cast, nothing, and they should let you.
_________________ 
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HellScourge
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 20:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1
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Just leaving is not always a way out imho.
The same way you could argue that if a necromancer, with an undead summon, meets a druid the necromancer could just leave.
It also harbors into the second example territory.
Personally, I'd suffer the consequences if I insult someone. I don't really expect to just be able to walk away in RL either if I do that, I pretty much expect to get hit badly if I should do so even and meet the wrong, violent type, which sounds like Rras to me. (My chars may differ. Niya thinks he is a cute scaly guy with an attitude, then again, she is Niya!)
Whatever I do, I expect to suffer the consequences, even, or especially when I am extreme. I expect people to do something, anything. May it Roll Rp, just RP, or even pvp.
Hell, if they insult someone they might as well and just lie to him when they say Sorry.
Not sure if anyone ever done that.
"Yeah, yeah, of course I am sorry."
Gives you enough room to accept it with pride "I knew you hairless humans would know your place when meeting your superior." or you could push further "That sounds to much like sarcasm to me."
Hell, it opens up so many ways, if people just would RP more and not jump right to the rules.
Ahem, enough of that now though.
Example #1:
There was a rule that allowed you to engage in pvp when the other one just simply walked away.
Quote: If you turn tail and run without a word to avoid IC consequence, you can expect to be stopped by any means possible. Always give others reasonable time to react with RP
The alternate way I interpretate that is that if you walk away that you can be held responsible, of course its not the same as walking away, but it is similiar enough for me to be honest.
Example #2:
As a druid player I can say, going with the 'Unsommon it now or face my wraith' does work. Mostly just with people who are just standing there. If in the same group they had the courtesy to send it away.
And if they don't just focus on the summon, say Icly before that you will only get rid of the Abomination, inform them via a tell too. And all that happens next is up to them, they either let it fight back, or join the battle.
Example #3
Mhmm, not really I'd say. At least not from my perspective.
There were many times people rolled something, either a grapple or something else. I never saw that as real pvp, more as RP with rolls supplied. Not just duking it out. _________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder." TeroSNS wrote: Hello Everyone [...] I like tentacles [...] 
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Sokar Rostau
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 20:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Location: Australia
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I think there's a big difference between demanding someone wandering around Amia Forest or Bendir unsummon their minions and doing the same in a hunting area. Basically you are leaving them no choice in the matter because if they unsummon it and you leave they are left without their minion or if they refuse and PvP ensues they are in the same boat - either way they have to wait until they can rest again before they can resummon it and continue what they were doing.
It's possible that someone could even use this as an excuse to overtake you in an area because by the time you have rested and resummoned they could be almost finished with a dungeon. Yes, it's against the rules to overtake, but it's also been said a number of times that sometimes it's better to just let the fastest party go ahead to prevent you running into each other.
_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
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Falling Spider
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 20:43 PM |
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009
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I'm still thinking that if someone is walking away from you, they don't want to be in the situation as a player, and as a player you should respect that, instead of pushing around your weight as a prideful insert class/race/faction here.
_________________
Gahnn Bluetusk
Aleksandr Vespermouth II
"Malnutrition is scarier than any beastie."
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Uberuce
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 20:57 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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Zante wrote: Just leaving should be an acceptable out. Wasn't it even one of Ruce's examples to avoid PvP? Just leave, no spells cast, nothing, and they should let you. You missed out the bit where they don't instigate the situation by insulting people, or if they do, they retracted it. Those are biggies. I don't know if you read Dwagin's post carefully enough. Quote: I'm still thinking that if someone is walking away from you, they don't want to be in the situation as a player, and as a player you should respect that, instead of pushing around your weight as a prideful insert class/race/faction here. Same as above: reread Dwagin's post. If they put themselves in the line of fire, it's not your responsibilty to compromise your RP.
That's not to say every character is compatible with Amia. If I was to make a character who really did insist everyone in sight kissed his boots and murdered anyone who refused, I would not expect the DMs to tolerate it because I waved the Ruin My RP flag.
Last edited by Uberuce on Tue, Jul 07 2009, 21:04 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 21:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Uberuce wrote: Zante wrote: Just leaving should be an acceptable out. Wasn't it even one of Ruce's examples to avoid PvP? Just leave, no spells cast, nothing, and they should let you. You missed out the bit where they don't instigate the situation by insulting people, or if they do, they retracted it. Those are biggies. I don't see anyone of Lawful Neutral or Good Alignments going whoop arse on someone just for an insult however. If it was continous insults maybe but not a "Your a scaley red faced bastard" Walks away.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Cori
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 21:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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I'd think the "insulter" simply walking/running off, should be all you *need* to fulfill the IC pride issue.
"Ha! I knew you were too weak to stand your ground. Begone then you pathetic wretch."
Hell, I'd think that better than an apology.
And, agreed with Ruce. I was in the process of typing just that, when he posted.
_________________ Role with the Punches...
Elan: A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everyone knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 21:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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MoshingChris wrote: Uberuce wrote: Zante wrote: Just leaving should be an acceptable out. Wasn't it even one of Ruce's examples to avoid PvP? Just leave, no spells cast, nothing, and they should let you. You missed out the bit where they don't instigate the situation by insulting people, or if they do, they retracted it. Those are biggies. I don't see anyone of Lawful Neutral or Good Alignments going whoop arse on someone just for an insult however. If it was continous insults maybe but not a "Your a scaley red faced bastard" Walks away. You missed the part where the person is part RED DRAGON.
Don't wantonly insult someone in a world where might can make right and swords and spells and duels are proper answers to a problem, and complain when your ass is handed to you on a platter by someone who may be ugly but is entirely capable of making you *uglier*.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Teufel Eldritch
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 21:15 PM |
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
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Ummm same subject I guess but ummm... when did South Cordor become No PvP? I was in a situation earlier where PvP would have been appropiate but could not as it was a No PvP zone. Why was this done? To many morons causing problems? Will SC ever become a PvP zone again?
_________________
YANKEE ROSE
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 21:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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It was temporary as the result of a plotline in Cordor. To my knolwedge it should be rienstated as party PvP.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 21:29 PM |
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Teufel Eldritch
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 21:34 PM |
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
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roger that, thanks
_________________
YANKEE ROSE
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 22:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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TormakSaber wrote: MoshingChris wrote: Uberuce wrote: Zante wrote: Just leaving should be an acceptable out. Wasn't it even one of Ruce's examples to avoid PvP? Just leave, no spells cast, nothing, and they should let you. You missed out the bit where they don't instigate the situation by insulting people, or if they do, they retracted it. Those are biggies. I don't see anyone of Lawful Neutral or Good Alignments going whoop arse on someone just for an insult however. If it was continous insults maybe but not a "Your a scaley red faced bastard" Walks away. You missed the part where the person is part RED DRAGON. Don't wantonly insult someone in a world where might can make right and swords and spells and duels are proper answers to a problem, and complain when your ass is handed to you on a platter by someone who may be ugly but is entirely capable of making you *uglier*. I didn't miss that part at all because i wasn't referring to Rras. To refer to Rras i need to know Alignment, Classes etc which i have no flaggin idea about because i've never partied or RP'ed with her.
I'm just refferring to the fact that "I've destroyed millions of monsters and now i'm going to take a passing insult as a mortal offence and rip you apart in a vicious manner" as typical asshattery involved in wanton pvp (Like what occured in Wiltun, from my perspective, forcing a script to be put in place to prevent it).
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Logicality
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 22:33 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Location: The Otherworld
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PVPing someone because you think they insulted you is one of the lamest things I've seen on Amia. Sure, some characters would realistically do it, but if anything that just dings in my head as a shallow character.
This is a game, people play this to have fun. Fun is not having someone fifty bazillion levels higher than you rip your head off because you sneered at them. That's not a "they put themselves in the line of fire, they deserve it" situation. That's a situation where the higher-level character just wants to throw their weight around.
Advice: If your character wouldn't do it at level 1, perhaps he/she shouldn't do it at level 30 either. Because that's what most PVP seems to be about on this server, from what I've seen... not legitimate epic struggles between two (off-the-stage consenting) players, but a way to boost one's own ego.
I'm not going to touch Amia's PVP rules because rules should be a foundation, not the first thing you look at in a situation.
_________________
"A somebody was once a nobody who wanted to and did." - Anonymous
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Cori
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 22:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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The "rip you apart in a vicious manner" aspect is what I personally see as one of the biggest pvp related flaws in Amian players.
It's entirely realistic, and likely (ICly) to react to insults with violence, in the style of universe Amia is set in. Duals, hell, even wars, have started in such a mediocre fashion. So by all means, if it is appropriate to the pc's personality, get violent over an unrepented insult. Hell, it happens often enough in todays real-world society, even though it's considered a crime, so it's entirely believable in a NWN universe.
What is ridiculous in teh extreme (in my opinion) is that said violence never seems to be done via fistfighting, which would be the most likely way for such a thing to be handled, other than perhaps an official dual. Likely because most people don't have weapon focus:unarmed attack, nor +5 fists (or gloves) with elemental damage.
I'd think it great rp if someone got into a fistfight, as in, with their sword and shield NOT equipped, ratehr than a swordfight, over things like verbal insults. I'd find it to be even better rp if whomever got to low hp first stepped back and submitted as being the loser, rather than it going to the "death". I'd possibly actually believe it was rp, and not some lame excuse to pvp, if it happened that way.
Alas, I've never witnessed that happen (though I'm sure it has at least once or twice - just not the majority of the time).
_________________ Role with the Punches...
Elan: A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everyone knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 22:45 PM |
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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There seems to be an underlying and understated opinion held by some of you: "You are not playing your adventuring PCs right. They should be able to take an insult and not flip out. They should be more mature!"
The fact is, they are not. How the players make the characters act is how the characters not only are, but how they are viewed by others. Some of you have seen the signs of a creeping comeuppance for the kind of infantile behavior that spawns PvP fests - IC consequences that affect everyone, and not just those who have to throw their weight around.
For the record, I agree that most of the PvP situations I see from the Client revolve around OOC pissing contests. But I'm not going to separate your OOC and your IC. If you bring it IC, I'll treat it IC...even if it might be OOC.
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xordae
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 22:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Location: Germany
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1. Meh.. all I can say is.. it needs two to PvP. Sure you can call the guy an idiot for mouthing off to a RDD, but everyone has a different idea of how to play. The goal is to make it fun for both. If he talks, talk back. If things progress and you want them to progress, then go with it. In this case you wanted the move to PvP and he did not want to linger on it, as demonstrated by him continuing to walk away. This may hurt your player pride because you at this moment were in the mind of an almighty Red Dragon guy and there is no such thing as total OOC and IC separation (I mean this without malice, I've been there plenty). It was just a situation where ideas differed or maybe he even wanted to "rub you some", who knows.
Nothing to be done about that but move on.
2. I was totally in a situation like that earlier. It was a lot of fun. Why was it a lot of fun? Because both me and the Paladin approached this calmly and with respect. There were plenty of opportunities here. He could have backed down (and never did it seem like he absolutely would not). My Necro could have walked away. And lastly the thing that happened - the clash. Neither character died, both talked a lot and all that got hurt were two or three summons on my end. The key to all this is that if you start PvP on the right foot, both will just have fun even if the outcome is against your or inconclusive. The problem I see is that often one of the two parties is a bit of an arse about it, and then you have no choice but to arse along yourself or tuck in your tail. And tucking in your tail while the other guy is an arse just gives you bad feelings OOC. And voilà, you're caught in the trap.
3. I would say yes. Whenever you assert yourself over someone else, there has to be a way out. A dice roll doesn't have to be it. You can grapple someone and etc, but courtesy says that he has to have some means to get out of this. If not immediately, then later when you drag him off. Or whatever you do. If you don't impose yourself on that character too much and things seem like they progressed realistically and naturally, chances are that he will not even try to get away. But as #2, the "arse variable" plays an important part.
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Teufel Eldritch
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 22:58 PM |
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
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Cori wrote: I'd think it great rp if someone got into a fistfight, as in, with their sword and shield NOT equipped, ratehr than a swordfight, over things like verbal insults. I'd find it to be even better rp if whomever got to low hp first stepped back and submitted as being the loser, rather than it going to the "death". I'd possibly actually believe it was rp, and not some lame excuse to pvp, if it happened that way. Yea why is that no one ever gets in fist fights? That's the realistic solution. Why? Because they want to WIN! WIN! WIN! all the time! They fear that the other combatant may win so they use weapons. Granted we are talking about a fantasy setting, a medvial setting, but still.... whipping out your Greatsword of Newb Slaying & proceeding to DevCrit the insulter for 180 dmg just because they called you a sissy is a bit of over-reaction. Just punch the jacka** in the nose. [sarcasm]-That's realistic, but noooo can't do that! Why? They might get their butt whopped! So better to just cheese it up & whip out that Epic Weapon of DEEEWWWMMM!! & smash the insulter into the ground. -[/sarcasm]
_________________
YANKEE ROSE
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BlackDahlya
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 23:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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MoshingChris wrote: Uberuce wrote: Zante wrote: Just leaving should be an acceptable out. Wasn't it even one of Ruce's examples to avoid PvP? Just leave, no spells cast, nothing, and they should let you. You missed out the bit where they don't instigate the situation by insulting people, or if they do, they retracted it. Those are biggies. I don't see anyone of Lawful Neutral or Good Alignments going whoop arse on someone just for an insult however. If it was continous insults maybe but not a "Your a scaley red faced bastard" Walks away.
My paladin's unspoken reaction, but slightly emoted or on his replies, were basically saying "You need more than that to insult me."Uberuce wrote: Falling Spider wrote: I'm still thinking that if someone is walking away from you, they don't want to be in the situation as a player, and as a player you should respect that, instead of pushing around your weight as a prideful insert class/race/faction here. Same as above: reread Dwagin's post. If they put themselves in the line of fire, it's not your responsibilty to compromise your RP. That's not to say every character is compatible with Amia. If I was to make a character who really did insist everyone in sight kissed his boots and murdered anyone who refused, I would not expect the DMs to tolerate it because I waved the Ruin My RP flag.
Is that acceptable or can/should the one responsible for the barricade/toll follow me and PvP me?
_________________
BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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Phantom-D
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 23:08 PM |
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
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We use swords and spells because we are adventurers. Most peasants hardly OWN usable weapons, that is why they use fists and not war equipment.
If some dude is bent on killing me, am I really going to want to use my fist when I can use my dagger with deadly effectiveness and efficiency over my fists?
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Teufel Eldritch
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 23:22 PM |
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
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Well if some guy is punching at you(hitting or not) he's most likely not trying to kill you, tho there are exceptions.
_________________
YANKEE ROSE
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Falling Spider
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 23:23 PM |
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009
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Isn't it a bit elementary-schoolish to start a battle to the death over a "no, you're stupider" type comment? I mean sure, that might be your character, but most people can take a passing comment like that.
Yeah, in fantasy settings you see people fight to the death over it, but they're usually bratty nobles and as a bit of a joke.
_________________
Gahnn Bluetusk
Aleksandr Vespermouth II
"Malnutrition is scarier than any beastie."
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Jul 07 2009, 23:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Dwagin wrote: 1. I am playing Rras, he is a half-red dragon, someone insults him in passing. He of course is angry due to his bloodline and personality and seeks to educate the person on the incorrectness of their sentiments. (If it were not for the rule he would simply pounce and nom, however. But one must make concessions.)
They engage in RP responses, and he speaks with them but they continue walking, but harbor no intent to recant and show proper respect that he Demands.
My question would be in this situation, if they continue to walk is that not a simple dismissal of the in character out? Ergo a null answer or a 'no'? And if that is so am I within my rights to simply hostile and let the scales and claws fly? I think you are allowed to curbstomp them for that. They insult you, you demand an apology and try to engage in RP (an IC out) and thy resort to escaping RP. It's their fault if they refused to take the IC out. Dwagin wrote: 2. I've a Champion of a Good deity that dispises Tyranny, not quite on the line of 'Kelemvorite undead hate' but still hates the concept of keeping a corpse around like a pet, or monsters under domination as a pet: What would be the reccomended course of action if running into said situation? Demand they unsummon it, or release it? If they refuse does that mean I should just cut it down? Was that their 'legal' IC PVP out? Its very much against my character's ethos and he'd not let it go unchallenged. Even if it was a good aligned person dominating a creature. I'd be careful with this. Very careful. I suppose if you let them simply emote it while retaining the creature it will lead to minimal problems, but the amount of times I've had trouble simply getting a party to emote leaving a hunting grounds leads me to question this. Dwagin wrote: 3. Does an IC attack sans engine: ergo with dice rolls/to grapple and inflict harm/capture a PC also remain judged by this rule? Ergo they must be given an IC out of it, before such occurs? It is a form of PvP that requires one? I assume that infractions in Cordor under the eye of a guard PC would nullify your out in that situation, if they require one.
I'd imagine so, do varying degrees ruled by common sense.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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ainjyll
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 3:25 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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Situation 1: Character A is insulted by Character B. Is it alright for Character A to attack Character B?
The rules state that a player is to give another player an IC way out of PvP. If Character A says, "Apologize to me or else I unleash my epic loot weapon of dhoom and stomp your butt." then you have given them an IC out of the situation. This leads the player of Character B to two options.
1.) Apologize and avoid butt stomping.
2.) Don't apologize and take your chances.
By "take your chances" I mean that possibly Character A is lying and won't whoop you or maybe Character A is really a wuss and you can handle them if they attack, etc. In my opinion, you've given an IC way out of the situation. If the player of Character B doesn't take the way out given then it's up to them to either come up with a satisfactory way to Character A to get out of the situation or to take one on the chin for being a jerk. I would advise sending the player of Character B a tell informing them that you have given them an IC way out of the situation just so they know. Sometimes the IC way out of the situation given by one character to another isn't apparent and it's not that they aren't taking it... it's that they don't see that it's there.
EDIT: I would like to say that insulting someone and expecting to be allowed to walk away with no IC consequences to be extremely egocentric RP and as much, if not more, of a storm on someone's sunny day as unwanted PvP.
Situation 2: Character A has issues with Character B's summons. Is it alright for Character A to demand that Character B releases their summons or they [the summons] will be destroyed. [summons is used as a generic term for summons, dominated, or otherwise controlled minions]
I would say that this is a tricky situation. Wouldn't destroying the summons be just another form of tyranny? Tyranny can be loosely defined as one being forcing it's will upon another being against it's will. So, in my mind, that leaves attacking the character to liberate the enslaved creature. In that case, give an IC way out [see "unsummon or else"] and proceed from there.
Situation 3: Stuff about rolls and PvP.
First and foremost, any rolls that are not requested by a DM are optional and do not have to be followed and people are supposed to phrase their emotes involving touching another character in such a way that it is an attempt. I.E. *Draws back and attempts to punch Joe in the face". It is at this point where the situation can go to rolls if both players wish it or a return emote is sent saying either *gets hit* or *dodges somehow*.
I, personally, think that going from rolls to allowing the game engine to settle it all out is perfectly fine as long as you inform the other player beforehand and it still fits the situation. For example, Character A is grappled down and pinned by Character B. At this point the situation doesn't warrant the use of the game engine as there is no function for dealing with that situation built into the game. However, if a few punches are thrown and Character A feels the need to draw his sword, I'd say go for it.
_________________  "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 3:31 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Falling Spider wrote: Isn't it a bit elementary-schoolish to start a battle to the death over a "no, you're stupider" type comment? I mean sure, that might be your character, but most people can take a passing comment like that.
Yeah, in fantasy settings you see people fight to the death over it, but they're usually bratty nobles and as a bit of a joke.
This comment is irrelevant because everything should be staying IC.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Yurell
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 3:47 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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TormakSaber wrote: Falling Spider wrote: Isn't it a bit elementary-schoolish to start a battle to the death over a "no, you're stupider" type comment? I mean sure, that might be your character, but most people can take a passing comment like that.
Yeah, in fantasy settings you see people fight to the death over it, but they're usually bratty nobles and as a bit of a joke. This comment is irrelevant because everything should be staying IC. I agree with Tormak
However, I'd like to point out that comparing to 'reality' has the problem of in reality you experience pain as a medium between perfect health and sudden death. And you don't return to life from said death.
Most people don't RP pain, so the main restraining factor is gone.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 3:53 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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I have to agree , when Frey participates in PvP these PvP episodes are always Epic as to how I RP PvP effectively and have been blessed with RP'ing PvP encounters with the same types... but the difference between then and now is -especially for those individuals who wish to have a character with an evil reputation - the attitude of those players, and who they will "play" with.
People complain about "exclusive RP", but don't even realize when they do so, they're being exclusive. While we can all admit usually that's just jealously cloaked, the truth is if you bitch about someone whom you feel is being "exlusive" your close minded in the fact that your assuming your perception on how that person RP's is the only valid one.
It seems like several people today will take their own imagined IC rivalries so seriously as to actually begin disliking another person OOC'ly to the point it gets silly and a bit scary. I said once I'd like to get demographics for the players whos accounts have the most PvP encounters, but I'm reasonably sure I already know the answer to this.
(Ruce would be the exception, but some kids never grow out of that )
It's all about WINNING, not about expanding the RP and EVERYONE walking away feeling like what just happened was "EPIC" or "AWESOME". It's all about putting your desires and dreams for your character above and beyond EVERYTHING else on the server, to the point where you become that which you used to despise.
Just RP your character, and accept that however you RP that character, ultimately there will be someone bigger and badder than you are... and that character could be the individual your talking to now.
Regards, _________________ 
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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HellScourge
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 5:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1
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Cori wrote: What is ridiculous in teh extreme (in my opinion) is that said violence never seems to be done via fistfighting, which would be the most likely way for such a thing to be handled, other than perhaps an official dual. Likely because most people don't have weapon focus:unarmed attack, nor +5 fists (or gloves) with elemental damage.
That!
Can we perhaps get a pair of gloves with weapon focus unarmed, called "Duel glove." or something?
Something easy, because, the idea sounds fun to me.
Safe for the monks of course, they get excluded from the fistfighting. _________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder." TeroSNS wrote: Hello Everyone [...] I like tentacles [...]
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 5:59 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Why would I handle my problems with fistfighting?! Gentlemen's duels even used guns. *sagenod*
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Logicality
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 6:11 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Location: The Otherworld
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HellScourge wrote: Cori wrote: What is ridiculous in teh extreme (in my opinion) is that said violence never seems to be done via fistfighting, which would be the most likely way for such a thing to be handled, other than perhaps an official dual. Likely because most people don't have weapon focus:unarmed attack, nor +5 fists (or gloves) with elemental damage.
That! Can we perhaps get a pair of gloves with weapon focus unarmed, called "Duel glove." or something? Something easy, because, the idea sounds fun to me. Safe for the monks of course, they get excluded from the fistfighting. It's a cool idea. Perhaps gloves with the "No combat damage" property that deal nonlethal damage via local variables on the PCs.
_________________
"A somebody was once a nobody who wanted to and did." - Anonymous
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Uberuce
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 7:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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According to the highly respected historical documentary series Dogtanian and the Three Muskahounds, it was the done thing for gentlemen to duel with swords, but a fistfight would be unthinkably lowerclass.
And don't listen to silly Frey, I've not PvP'd anyone for weeks.
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Yurell
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 7:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Uberuce wrote: According to the highly respected historical documentary series Dogtanian and the Three Muskahounds, it was the done thing for gentlemen to duel with swords, but a fistfight would be unthinkably lowerclass.
Fisticuffs was seen as crude and unrefined, sometimes to the point of illegality - no one who would call themselves a gentleman would descend to such an attempt (unless they wished to be looked down on by the rest of the upper classes).
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 7:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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Uberuce wrote: And don't listen to silly Frey, I've not PvP'd anyone for weeks.
Regards, _________________
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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Uberuce
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 7:33 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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Except for that elf on Saturday.
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Kjetta
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 7:38 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Location: A Clean, Well-Lighted Place
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I'm fully with Cori about the fist fighting. I too believe we should include varying degrees of "I want you dead" in our hostile RP. When we RP, we pretty much mimic fiction from from books and movies, and these often display more diversity in this field than what is common in the brawls of Amia, I have to agree.
Sometimes its just cooler to kick someone in the groin, smash a beer bottle over their head or slap them with a glove rather than go *GS + Buff + Devestating Rapier Crit.*
Try to imagine Scarlett's slap in Gone With the Wind as a Greater Ruin strike. _________________ To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 7:46 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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Uberuce wrote: Except for that elf on Saturday.
I KNEW IT !1!!!!
Regards, _________________
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 7:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Hahaha, one of these threads again. Let's hope it doesn't degrade into a "I like PVP" vs "I hate PVP" thread.
1. Go for it. As long as they have an out, such as apologising and showing respect, I'd say that it's within' the rules to attack someone over this. Just understand that consquences exist for the actions you have taken, and that you should adhere to these consquences, even if a DM isn't about.
2. Demand they release it, give an IC out, and go for attack again. If your character would do this, then yes they should do it. If more people did this, racism against races would be more present.
3. I'd say the fight itself being Rp'ed and done with dice rolls should include and out anyway. Any Rp'ed battle generally will be done well, if not then I'd hardly call it a fight. An out should be given, espically in cases of "Epic picking on known low level", but it probably doesn't need to be as obvious.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 7:59 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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There are times, however, when it's perfectly acceptable to not respond to someone, and that lack of response doesn't automatically give the hailing party right to PvP.
Example:
Happy Lamplighter is walking from Cordor to the Skull crags.
Happy Lamplighter sees someone sporting obvious Cyric colours following him.
Obvious Cyric starts making comments like "Oi, mate, imma minute o' yer time? I's needs abit o' help, as I'd be loster than a one eyed man in a mob of beholders!"
Happy Lamplighter continues to walk on to Skull Crags, doesn't respond, and makes trails for the inside of the Monestary there.
Point is, it was the Happy Lamplighters out to not say anything, as anything he'd say would make no difference. Of course, Obvious Cyricist might not consider this, hrmm? So Obvious Cyricist cloaks / shadowdancers / GS's, runs past Happy Lamplighter, and ambushes them when they transition, PvP'ing them.
Who's wrong?
Obvious Cyricist, IMHO, because Obvious Cyricist didn't communicate or otherwise OOC'ly say "Hey mate, you walking away on purpose"?
Probably didn't even THINK to stop and think, because Obvious Cyricist was more on about the ambush than the other player and making things good for both.
Problem is people often only look at it from their perspective, and then make the worst assumption of all...
that there perception is the only one, and the =right one=.
Regards,
_________________
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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Yurell
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 8:03 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Emote ignoring them. I find that makes it fully clear that you are not ignoring their RP and that your character is.
As an aside, it's amusing just walking past someone - you get no reaction. If you emote, however, that you just walk by them without acknowledging their existence they usually react differently 
Edit: I can't believe I used the wrong 'no'
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
Last edited by Yurell on Wed, Jul 08 2009, 8:24 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 8:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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Yurell wrote: Emote ignoring them. I find that makes it fully clear that you are not ignoring their RP and that your character is. As an aside, it's amusing just walking past someone - you get know reaction. If you emote, however, that you just walk by them without acknowledging their existence they usually react differently You know, thats a very good suggestion! That would prevent any misunderstandings on both sides.
+1
And yes, I know this from experience... Frey walking past someone as it comes back from South Cordor and saying nothing = no worries.
Frey coming back from South Cordor and emoting ignoring someone as it walks past?
Amazingly, it is different! We both know why tho
Regards, _________________
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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Vaylek
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 8:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
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FA_Frey_XC wrote:
Happy Lamplighter is walking from Cordor to the Skull crags.
Happy Lamplighter sees someone sporting obvious Cyric colours following him.
Obvious Cyric starts making comments like "Oi, mate, imma minute o' yer time? I's needs abit o' help, as I'd be loster than a one eyed man in a mob of beholders!"
Happy Lamplighter continues to walk on to Skull Crags, doesn't respond, and makes trails for the inside of the Monestary there.
Point is, it was the Happy Lamplighters out to not say anything, as anything he'd say would make no difference. Of course, Obvious Cyricist might not consider this, hrmm? So Obvious Cyricist cloaks / shadowdancers / GS's, runs past Happy Lamplighter, and ambushes them when they transition, PvP'ing them.
Who's wrong?
Obvious Cyricist, IMHO, because Obvious Cyricist didn't communicate or otherwise OOC'ly say "Hey mate, you walking away on purpose"?
Yes Frey well if a player (whether their character was a cyricist or not) did what you described in the above hypothetical, they would be breaking server rules, correct? And they'd probably get banned for a period of time.
Just to make things clear, I've never been disciplined for anything I've done with my known cyricist character, who happens to have one eye and a cockney accent.
And I've actually had very few times where people have left with bad feelings over pvp my character has clearly instigated through RP. I could count them on one hand as a matter of fact.
Just thought I'd clear that up for anyone who might have had the inkling that Frey is sporting some bad feelings towards me and the way I play my character.
_________________
Vaylek - The Worst Guy
Pu Liu - Descendant of the Great River Dragon
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Maias227
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 9:37 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Location: Denmark (GMT+1)
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Uberuce wrote: Except for that elf on Saturday.
and it still hurts poor orwais! and to attack a fighter without his armour on so cheap:P
_________________
...Hereof follows that the social contract is only beneficial as long as all have something and none have too much...
- Rousseau Book 1 Chapter 9 in "The Social Contract"
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 10:12 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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Vaylek wrote: Yes Frey well if a player (whether their character was a cyricist or not) did what you described in the above hypothetical, they would be breaking server rules, correct? And they'd probably get banned for a period of time.
Just to make things clear, I've never been disciplined for anything I've done with my known cyricist character, who happens to have one eye and a (censored) accent.
And I've actually had very few times where people have left with bad feelings over pvp my character has clearly instigated through RP. I could count them on one hand as a matter of fact.
Just thought I'd clear that up for anyone who might have had the inkling that Frey is sporting some bad feelings towards me and the way I play my character.
Hal,
My example had nothing to do with your character, man. If you think I'm sporting any bad feelings towards you, or how you play your character, I'd refer you to the numerous public posts I've made in regards to how I think your playing your character.
*shrugs*
Just an example, I actually typed PM / EO first, but then redid it because I didn't want people to think I was quoting any specific instance IG. Perhaps your just feeling bad about something, and personalized it?
I'll not use Cyric if that truly bothers you enough to have to make a point about it.
Regards, _________________
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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Lally
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 10:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Location: Leather chair, USA. Tell me about your mother.
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That -was-the last of person to person accusatory comments on this thread.
Continue.
_________________
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.
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Uberuce
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 10:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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That reminds me: I dunno whether I was in the right by attacking from within a failed grapple roll. Admittedly I didn't actually counterroll, but I reckoned there was no point since Va's at a -16 penalty to Orwais.
It seems intuitive to me that hugging a tall guy with a spear(to use a cogent example) is a very smart idea since the dangerous bit of his killingstick is still three feet away from you, and if you're the better wrestler you'll not let him bring it to bear on you.
Grappling a midget with two knives seems really unwise since he's got shorter arms and the only bit of his knives you can grab are sharp and they're right there within your guard. There's no question of him leaving the scene, but he's still very dangerous to you.
Since Va was outnumbered a dozen to one, I reckoned it'd be funnier to kill and be killed. Wasn't like he was going to walk out alive from that one either way.
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Maias227
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Posted: Wed, Jul 08 2009, 10:32 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Location: Denmark (GMT+1)
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I honestly don't mind it at all. Characters are not all knowingly and who would suspect a fairly nutty hin would start sending a flurry of strikes against a clearly bigger and stronger warrior? Besides it was all in good sport and orwais will survie anyhow, probably a lot more mistrusting hins but apart from that all good and dandy.
Va just did what he does best. As a general rule understanding between the players goes a long away.
_________________
...Hereof follows that the social contract is only beneficial as long as all have something and none have too much...
- Rousseau Book 1 Chapter 9 in "The Social Contract"
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