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I am currently trying my best to lure people over to Bmia for RP, leveling, and all sorts of stuff. However, one thing that is a real tosser is the Ambushes in Khem, which can kill just about any character below level 15 easily.

Can we scale back the ambushes, no matter how unlikely they are? Its more low-level friendly.

fireprooftroll wrote:

I am currently trying my best to lure people over to Bmia for RP, leveling, and all sorts of stuff. However, one thing that is a real tosser is the Ambushes in Khem, which can kill just about any character below level 15 easily.

Can we scale back the ambushes, no matter how unlikely they are? Its more low-level friendly.

If you can do Minotaurs (the easiest are around there IMO) yo can probably do the ambushes (if you're not soloing) - worse comes to worse, just run.

But the ambushes can hit even low levels just going to Khem to RP, not hunting at all.

Then run.

And they can be pretty nasty too wuth death attack, dismissal and other nasty things. My poor boar..

Suck it up. An Ambush is an Ambush.

Anyone remember the hostile spawns in Zanshibon city? Some people would be glad to be ambushed like that, and you come here and complain. Hmmph.

xordae wrote:

Anyone remember the hostile spawns in Zanshibon city? Some people would be glad to be ambushed like that, and you come here and complain. Hmmph.

I only remember those while doing .. -stuff- on my Drow in the Velvet Quiver. Sure kills the mood. xD

those friggin TS sneaky death attack shooting ranged eight legged annoying bugs, eat up SDers, without much effort. Barely escaped those ambushes twice, with mine.

Gravemaskin wrote:

those friggin TS sneaky death attack shooting ranged eight legged annoying bugs, eat up SDers, without much effort. Barely escaped those ambushes twice, with mine.

When in doubt, retreat.

Lascivar wrote:

I only remember those while doing .. -stuff- on my Drow in the Velvet Quiver. Sure kills the mood. xD

*shudders* THose rats! Those rats! So much for a hygenic experience down there.

And that just while waiting for someone to come back from afk. <.<

The second time was more hilarious, someone just went afk and I noted that if any DM was watching that we were not cybering and that I was just waiting.. and it just happened that a DM came in a second ago. hah, hilarious.

Anyways, ambushes? What ambushes?

Yurell wrote:

Gravemaskin wrote:

those friggin TS sneaky death attack shooting ranged eight legged annoying bugs, eat up SDers, without much effort. Barely escaped those ambushes twice, with mine.

When in doubt, retreat.

Hence the escaping thing

I like the fact some of my level 30's have to flee or fight for their lives because I was too lazy to be at least vaguely ready for an ambush.

Last edited by BlackDahlya on Wed, Jul 01 2009, 9:45 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Uberuce wrote:

I like the fact some of my level 30's have to flee or fight for their lives because I was too lazy to be at least vaguely ready for an ambush.

Bwa ha ha!

Me too.

Those ambushes almost killed my priest once, especially because I clicked in the bright light instead of the transition and he just didn't cross, he stood there.

BlackDahlya wrote:

Thos ambushes almost killed my priest once, especially because I clicked in the bright light instead of the transition and he just didn't cross, he stood there.[/color]

Ugh, I've done that more than once.

The thing is -attracting- people to Bmia. Does this feature do more harm than good for the average RPer who isn't interested in slash hack kill? Especially those that don't want to go everywhere buffed to hell.

fireprooftroll wrote:

The thing is -attracting- people to Bmia. Does this feature do more harm than good for the average RPer who isn't interested in slash hack kill? Especially those that don't want to go everywhere buffed to hell.

Monsters are a bad thing for anyone who isn't interested in killing things. Those monsters make the area more fun - I like them, and most people who know me will be quite happy to confirm when I say that I hate hunting.

fireprooftroll wrote:

The thing is -attracting- people to Bmia. Does this feature do more harm than good for the average RPer who isn't interested in slash hack kill? Especially those that don't want to go everywhere buffed to hell.

I don't want to be rude but... did you actually read the posts above telling you to run?

As soon as you are ambushed, if you don't move the spawns won't appear. They will only appear if you start moving.

So, as soon as your character is "back to its senses" just run towards the light, but click on the transition in the ground instead of the light.

Quote:

The thing is -attracting- people to Bmia. Does this feature do more harm than good for the average RPer who isn't interested in slash hack kill? Especially those that don't want to go everywhere buffed to hell.

I think it's a good thing that the journeys from place to place are mechanically(and therefore ICly) risky if it's implausible for them to be safe. Everywhere in Khem is a walled guarded village with dangerous things outside it.

Problem is, not everyone is level 30, and denying people the ability to go to a potential RP hub just because they are not level 30 is pretty sad.

Uberuce wrote:

Quote:

The thing is -attracting- people to Bmia. Does this feature do more harm than good for the average RPer who isn't interested in slash hack kill? Especially those that don't want to go everywhere buffed to hell.

I think it's a good thing that the journeys from place to place are mechanically(and therefore ICly) risky if it's implausible for them to be safe. Everywhere in Khem is a walled guarded village with dangerous things outside it.

To be completely honest, I think it's a great system. "We'll cutscene your walking through unknown hours of desert and only bother you if anything interesting happens."

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Problem is, not everyone is level 30, and denying people the ability to go to a potential RP hub just because they are not level 30 is pretty sad.

So long as you're not likely to die in one hit you can run to the transition.

Yurell wrote:

If you can do Minotaurs (the easiest are around there IMO) yo can probably do the ambushes (if you're not soloing) - worse comes to worse, just run.

The problem could be the sand casters, they blind a level 20 toon and even he might be in trouble.

BlackDahlya wrote:

Click on the transition in the ground instead of the light.

I think clicking on the light also gets you to the other area. And it might be actually safer because the spawns sometimes could travel across transitions.

Anyways, I agree with the suggestion to run. Once you get ambushed, stop and turn back to where you came from. Preferably invisible.

Suck it up. An Ambush is an Ambush.

Woots, ambushes! I love that feature in Khem, makes the place feel a lot more real and dangerous. Just quickly leave the area and take the cart again?

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Problem is, not everyone is level 30, and denying people the ability to go to a potential RP hub just because they are not level 30 is pretty sad.

I disagree. I think it adds to the atmosphere and flavour of a hypothetical RP hub that you need to have a Beefiness X group/escort to get there, all the way up to a strong crew of epics.

However, any hub more than twenty seconds travel from a node/cart is going to remain just that - hypothetical.

Maybe if the cell's entry point would be next to one of the transitions, it would be easier for low levels to run. The monsters' spawning area could be moved there, too. This way the couple seconds it takes for monsters to notice you would be enough to leave.

To b perfectly honest, I don't see what's wrong with the system as it stands.

Seeing how I have a single L30 character, I don't mind either, but I can see how these ambushes can discourage low level roleplayers.

Are you really playing the role of a character in a dangerous world if there's no danger?

You're roleplaying a character going through a dangerous, uncharted, monster-filled wasteland - how is being ambushed not part of the RP?
And running with your tail between your legs is always an option, and if you're so obstinate not to run or so arrogant as to believe yo can traverse such lands safely then your comeuppance is also part of the RP.

Last edited by Xiru on Wed, Jul 01 2009, 12:06 PM, edited 2 times in total.

Uberuce wrote:

Are you really playing the role of a character in a dangerous world if there's no danger?

Yurell wrote:

You're roleplaying a character going through a dangerous, uncharted, monster-filled wasteland - how is being ambushed not part of the RP?

I see your point, but I still think this ambush is a bit too excessive. Look at the carts, for example. They can throw you off, but if you stay near the road, there's a good chance you can avoid mobs. Here, bang, a group of mid-level mobs in your face, some of which have death attack.

I'd think that there are many roleplayers here who try to balance their RP and powergaming. If you bring over such a player to show him how awesome RP around Khem is, and he dies in an ambush, he won't want to come back for a long while. I thought that you guys were trying to get more people to play on B.

Yurell wrote:

And running with your tail between your legs is always an option, and if you're so obstinate not to run or so arrogant as to believe yo can traverse such lands safely then your comeuppance is also part of the RP.

I'd agree with you if we were talking about jello cubes which spend two rounds casting buffs on themselves, but we've got fast bugs and spider-people with death attack. If you don't react fast enough, you get a lag spike, or you're just unlucky, you're dead.

EDIT: Another thing. If we move on to a theoretical level, RP is all about consenting to actions, right? Basically, if you use the "This is RP" argument, you're forcing RP on low levels they might not want. This can be solved if you enable them to run away more easily.

I, too, want to RP in a savage, dangerous world, not a safe one.

Xiru wrote:

EDIT: Another thing. If we move on to a theoretical level, RP is all about consenting to actions, right? Basically, if you use the "This is RP" argument, you're forcing RP on low levels they might not want.

I'd disagree with that. RP is reacting to events as your character would, no matter what those events may be. We have rules in place to stop people from being OOC twunts and ruining others' immersion and fun, but essentially suspension of disbelief is the goal.

You know that there is a probability of being ambushed, so by choosing to go there unescorted or not portalling you are accepting this - if you are requiring consent, there it is.

Yurell wrote:

You know that there is a probability of being ambushed, so by choosing to go there unescorted or not portalling you are accepting this - if you are requiring consent, there it is.

Without prior knowledge of the module, they can't possibly know about the ambush mechanic. It's not exactly widespread.

Xiru wrote:

Yurell wrote:

You know that there is a probability of being ambushed, so by choosing to go there unescorted or not portalling you are accepting this - if you are requiring consent, there it is.

Without prior knowledge of the module, they can't possibly know about the ambush mechanic. It's not exactly widespread.

Without prior knowledge of the module, they have no way of knowing they're no running into a spawn area anyway.

A slight technical problem:
The ambush spawn followed me through the transition to Hasrabet once (or whatever that area where you go through the bovine gate is called). That was ... interesting. I don't know which way I was going at that time, but one of the transitions seems to let them through, which I believe to be unintended.

Now onwards to my personal opinion on ambushes:
I like them on A's carts, where you actually have a choice between:
* Walk and meet plenty of monsters but be prepared.
* Take the cart and risk a little surprise.

In Nesek (and the Frozenfar), the choice is:
* Don't go there at all.
* Be ready for an ambush.

So I think it's quite different to the situation on A. One is a choice I make and I know taking the cart is probably the easier path. The other one is a forced necessity with some risk, but no feeling of a reward if there is no ambush, because you didn't save any time.

I would really love to have a choice between walking and taking the cart/sign/caravan on B, too. Even if it means walking through a long and windy desert path with a few of the usual mobs there and no other defining feature, and maybe one or two smaller transition jumps (no loading screen) to make better use of the area, pretending that these are "5 safe miles" again. I know, it means new areas, new work etc, but after having taken the caravan 20 times my epic character is destined to try the journey by himself.

People would also have a chance to see the mysterious area they come through when taking that caravan ride. So far, it's literally just a "fade to black. Now you're there."

Regards, Ts

Ts_ wrote:

A slight technical problem:
The ambush spawn followed me through the transition to Hasrabet once (or whatever that area where you go through the bovine gate is called). That was ... interesting. I don't know which way I was going at that time, but one of the transitions seems to let them through, which I believe to be unintended.

Now onwards to my personal opinion on ambushes:
I like them on A's carts, where you actually have a choice between:
* Walk and meet plenty of monsters but be prepared.
* Take the cart and risk a little surprise.

In Nesek (and the Frozenfar), the choice is:
* Don't go there at all.
* Be ready for an ambush.

So I think it's quite different to the situation on A. One is a choice I make and I know taking the cart is probably the easier path. The other one is a forced necessity with some risk, but no feeling of a reward if there is no ambush, because you didn't save any time.

I would really love to have a choice between walking and taking the cart/sign/caravan on B, too. Even if it means walking through a long and windy desert path with a few of the usual mobs there and no other defining feature, and maybe one or two smaller transition jumps (no loading screen) to make better use of the area, pretending that these are "5 safe miles" again. I know, it means new areas, new work etc, but after having taken the caravan 20 times my epic character is destined to try the journey by himself.

People would also have a chance to see the mysterious area they come through when taking that caravan ride. So far, it's literally just a "fade to black. Now you're there."

Regards, Ts

So your comparison is:

Long walk with lots of monsters or short trip with probability of monsters vs short trip with probability of monsters?

If you're ambushed, you can still buff and everything, so long as you don't walk forward. I like the system as it stands.

What is the advantage of your proposed system? As far as I can see it's the same, except you have to manually cross the distance.

You could add an extra line into the travel conversation to hint at the possibility of an ambush and get the player to bring friends just in case, and then ask 'Still want to go?'

Selmak wrote:

You could add an extra line into the travel conversation to hint at the possibility of an ambush and get the player to bring friends just in case, and then ask 'Still want to go?'

That sounds like an alright compromise to me.

Yurell wrote:

Long walk with lots of monsters or short trip with probability of monsters vs short trip with probability of monsters?[...]
What is the advantage of your proposed system? As far as I can see it's the same, except you have to manually cross the distance.

The advantage is psychoholovirtualistical. As I said, there is no reward for taking the carts on Bmia, but there is a substantial reward for taking carts on Amia, because you save a lot of time.

So to accept the downsides of carts (ambushes) you have to have some feeling of gaining something by taking that risk. That feeling can only come if you know what the other option would be and if there is another option at all.

I don't kneel before the devs and thank them for not putting real areas in, but giving me a risk for what is strictly speaking just an area transition like any other. I can see the reasoning on the Dev's side and the IC explanation, but for me it just doesn't work to create a "point of interest" feeling or the illusion of a very large desert.

Furthermore, almost all of these caravans function exactly the way transition functions: You leave to the south and end up on the north of the new area, neatly aligned. That doesn't really help with the feeling that it is not a regular transition, either. (The one exception I can think of right now is the Lost River.)

So, please put in areas in between, that make the caravans attractive. The point is not to say "Haha! That's what you got from your whining, now it's even harder!" (because it wouldn't be any harder) but simply to give the players a feeling of a reward which the current system totally lacks.

Regards, Ts

Ts_ wrote:

As I said, there is no reward for taking the carts on Bmia, but there is a substantial reward for taking carts on Amia, because you save a lot of time.

...

So, please put in areas in between, that make the caravans attractive.

It's the only way to your destination - I'd call that attractive.

Xiru wrote:

If you bring over such a player to show him how awesome RP around Khem is, and he dies in an ambush, he won't want to come back for a long while.

For me, it's not a big deal. In fact it could be a lot of fun, if they were to treat the ambush as an IC event.

Bob the Epic brings Little Timmy to Kehm and tells him all about this wonderful town called Dedjet... Little Timmy persuades a merchant to allow Bob and him to travel with the merchant.

*Ambushed* The merchant, traveling a few steps ahead, gets killed easily leaving our Little Timmy and Epic Bob to fend for themselves.

Bob the Epic: *Whispering to Timmy* Stay here Little Timmy it might be too dangerous, I'll deal with the bandits.
Little Timmy: *Gulps* O-okay...

Bob the Epic drinks an invisible potion and runs back to Ne'sek, muttering under his breath, "sucker."

I suggested once that the ambushes be scaled to your CR. Others disagreed and liked the one-size-fits-all ambush.

Some poster above, or more than one, said something to the effect of "I want to rp in a dangerous world not a safe one".

A one size fits all ambush is only dangerous the first time.
You want to live in a dangerous world, huh punk? Make the ambushes be a spawn of beasts from a "random" CR.

Like so:
On Ambush roll - 1D4
1 - Spawn of CR9
2 - CR15
3 - CR21
4 - CR27

This seems a bit more dangerous than a standard CR 15 group of beetles.

But that CR makes sense - everything around (well, up to the areas) is that CR, why should the ambushes be different?

Yurell wrote:

But that CR makes sense - everything around (well, up to the areas) is that CR, why should the ambushes be different?

Lemme understand this - A group of adventurers from (variously) Bendir Dale, Winya, Brogdenstein, and Kholingen can be walking together thru that area on thier way to Djedet and that makes sense, but you think it's beyond all comprehension that a creature or group of creatures from a few (or many) areas away can also be there and want to attack and kill said group of adventurers?

I'll restate what I said in the prior thread since it applies here again. I understand the need for designated hunting zones for various levels where things don't vary much and everything is reasonably "predictable". An ambush area on the other hand isn't a hunting zone and "could" perhaps be a risky proposition where "danger lurks" and "anything can happen".

Or we can keep the beetles and everyone below a certain level will flee by default and everyone above a certain level will , by default, kill them easily and keep on going.

maglorine wrote:

Yurell wrote:

But that CR makes sense - everything around (well, up to the areas) is that CR, why should the ambushes be different?

Lemme understand this - A group of adventurers from (variously) Bendir Dale, Winya, Brogdenstein, and Kholingen can be walking together thru that area on thier way to Djedet and that makes sense, but you think it's beyond all comprehension that a creature or group of creatures from a few (or many) areas away can also be there and want to attack and kill said group of adventurers?

I'll restate what I said in the prior thread since it applies here again. I understand the need for designated hunting zones for various levels where things don't vary much and everything is reasonably "predictable". An ambush area on the other hand isn't a hunting zone and "could" perhaps be a risky proposition where "danger lurks" and "anything can happen".

Or we can keep the beetles and everyone below a certain level will flee by default and everyone above a certain level will , by default, kill them easily and keep on going.

Never said incomprehensible. It is quite possible, even interesting, for this to happen. I just don't see why it is more likely to run into something far stronger than it is to run into the every-day creatures that roam those parts.
There's nothing wrong with your idea itself (aside from the specific probability mentioned above), I was just defending the reasoning of the old one - I apologise for not making myself clearer.

My thinking is that it's a wild area, unclaimed by any tribe or group, but that is traversed by various creatures from time to time. The ambushes don't happen often enough to require them to adhere to the notion that you are passing thru an area "owned and occupied" by a group of creatures. If it is, why don't they attack you everytime you trespass?

maglorine wrote:

My thinking is that it's a wild area, unclaimed by any tribe or group, but that is traversed by various creatures from time to time. The ambushes don't happen often enough to require them to adhere to the notion that you are passing thru an area "owned and occupied" by a group of creatures. If it is, why don't they attack you everytime you trespass?

I was just considering the creatures we see in the wilds - it seems to make sense that they would sporadically inhabit the area, and occasionally wander across a caravan. You are, of course, correct about your assertions that it seems unclaimed, and that it could reasonably be anyone that attacks you.

Especially when you consider that you are likely travelling via well-known watering holes if your trip is longer than a few hours (and if it's shorter, a fairly predictable route).

Edit: I don't think the probability of you finding something harder than the standard should be 50% though, as that would wipe out parties that are in range of the areas. I'd suggest just having that as a somewhat smaller probability.

Djedet and Nes'ek are quite a bit away, my guess would be as far as Kohlingen and Cordor even. There are surely many areas not actually in the module such creatures would roam and bandits are not too rare appearing on well established trade routes.

If you dare not travel with the caravans through those dangerous places then ask someone to help you bring you there. For instance I am sure the four kellies yesterday would have been thrilled to help protect the group as we added that in the tasks of the Knight-Templar group.

If there are no kellies on, you can ask others, mabey some bored epics in Wiltun who would love to make a small amount of coin to help protect the merchant and travellers. I dont really see a problem with that at all, except that it can create some fun rp, which is bad?

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