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Deku
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 Posted: Wed, Jun 24 2009, 20:52 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jun 2009
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Quote: Well i'll put it another way in a comparitive fashion since comparing a Pure Bard to a multiclass is somewhat unfair considering ones a party buffer the other a soloist.
At a guestimate My Chap (Bard 26, BG 3 Fighter 1) has 3 more AC, 5 more AB, does more damage due to a curse, gets lasting inspiration earlier, is immune to dispelling. I also self sing my discipline to 60. My Party mates get 3 more AC, 6 more AB and all day haste if we lack a wizard.
These numbers are all wrong. My bard has +5 ac from song. The most you can have is +6 and that requiers 75 Perform.
You can't be immune to dispelling. Mords is uncapped.
A lvl 20 caster gets the same number of mass hastes as a 26 caster, they just last 36 seconds less.
You also seem to be ignoring the point that it's easy to take curse song as a 20/6/4. I chose not to because i don't pvp and there is nothing in the server that difficult a challenge that I plan on fighting.(in a group of 2, when I was 23, we went through the first few lvls of abyss with no problem)
If you take curse song as a 20/6/4 then the only real advantage to taking more bard is in caster lvl. With the level progression I took you get 7 epic feats which gives you lots of options, including the option of Weapon spec.
I went with a full on destructor char with maxed damage and Dev crit because it is incredibly fun to play that way. With a wonderforged scimitar you'll be dealing about 50 damage a hit with just physical/magic damage and about 110 on crits and a 12-20 crit range, and dev crit and 1d6 sneak.
It's an offensive char and I didn't want to really be taken the time to do curse song as a full round action every spawn.
One big draw back of a high caster bard who focuses on song/curse is that if there is another high caster bard on the team then your use is greatly diminished. The song is really only one minor part of my build as it can out damage most tanks.
Really looking at it, there's practically no difference between a 26/3/1 and a 20/6/4. Just minor stuff.
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Uberuce
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Posted: Wed, Jun 24 2009, 21:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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I think Tormak or Ron invented Deku for a giggle. It makes more sense than someone thinking +5AB, 3/-DR, +2AC and huge KD ability isn't worth one round.
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Wed, Jun 24 2009, 21:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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The max song is actually 7ac... And curse song gives -6 to AC at level 20 and at level 26.... So thats +6 to AB... If thats not useful, your insane, Its lke saying nah ts cool I dont want buffed this round.
Your comment concerning if there is another caster on the team... Thats insane, not very many bards running aroud, and The party can last longer, thats like saying a melee cleric is no good becuase there is a mage on the team. You can buff more people together, last longer between rests, one curses spawns while other just worrys about the party.
As a bard withj full song on and div might you can outdamage tanks.. But your not a tank. A tank has HP, Bards do not. Also damage wise, you are concerning being fully buffed to do this damage, A tanks advantages is even when no bufffed they are ready for combat. From taking 6 levles of fighter you gain, a feat at level 1, 2,4,6... Well bard from 20-26 grants a bonus feat at 23 and 26. Since we are arguing 26/3/1 We also gain a feat from the fighter so you have 6 extra damage per hit, and we make our entire party's AB 6 points higher...
And from what I;ve heard yes mords can dispell you, but if your fighting a mage your ass dead anyways. What they are saying is UMD users with scrolls cant F*** you up
Pretty much a bard without curse song is a like a mage without any bigbys or any summons or any IGMS or any buffs.
In my oppinon its pointless, you can say you dont need it, but I cant think of one place where my little bitty hp means I can tank all day and not need to have more AB so I cna hit them. Level 26 gets 12 hp on song and 6 more penalty to skills. Doesnt seem like much, but try KDing somone wiht 6 less discipline, it means the world.
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Wed, Jun 24 2009, 21:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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Uberuce wrote: I think Tormak or Ron invented Deku for a giggle. It makes more sense than someone thinking +5AB, 3/-DR, +2AC and huge KD ability isn't worth one round.
That made me giggle  _________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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Ts_
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Posted: Wed, Jun 24 2009, 21:46 PM |
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Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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GreatPigeon wrote: And from what I;ve heard yes mords can dispell you, but if your fighting a mage your ass dead anyways. What they are saying is UMD users with scrolls cant F*** you up
Well, Caster level 25 is safe from the spells Lesser Dispel, Dispel Magic and Greater Dispelling. That's about it ... The people care about this is because Greater Dispelling is encountered in PvMob and it can ruin your day when every spawn has the potential to take away all your precious buffs.
The breach spells (any breach) will still remove some protective spells, no matter what your caster level is. Mordys, even from a scroll, will remove up to 6 protective buffs (see nwnwiki for the details) and then might dispel the rest. But the dispel effect isn't that effective from a Mordy's scroll and can only remove spells cast by a level 26 caster (and that's with a 5% chance for each effect), while a Wizard 30 will definitely remove all spells from someone with 20 caster levels with a single Mordy's.
Hope that helps,
Ts
_________________
Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"
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Deku
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Posted: Wed, Jun 24 2009, 22:05 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2009
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Quote: And from what I;ve heard yes mords can dispell you, but if your fighting a mage your ass dead anyways. What they are saying is UMD users with scrolls cant F*** you up
Dispel is an opposed roll based on caster levels. Scrolls use caster lvl on the scroll so they're not going to be hurting a lvl 20 caster. The only real advantage in regards to dispel is over clerics casting greater dispel. With caster lvl 20 they have a 25% chance of dispelling any buff.
I wasn't telling anyone not to pick curse song. I simply chose not to because it isn't needed and i picked dev crit over it. The biggest effect is the ac but creatures all have ac that's very hittable anyway. Its amazing in pvp and fighting really tough spawns. When you're just running over spawns in as quick a time as possible then it's useless. In Amia 99% of the game is running over spawns with no challenge.
I did say if I were to make the char again I would have dropped dev crit though. It's also not particularly great apart from for pvp and killing low end epic spawns.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Wed, Jun 24 2009, 22:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Actually my main point concerning 26 Bard is that it immunises you against the dispel effect of Mords scrolls.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Wed, Jun 24 2009, 22:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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Wasnt worried about pvp either, but being dispelled by a mob is gonna whip a bards ass in my oppinin, little fragile without having their song, their haste, they mage armor etc
All i was worried about was the meanie mobs.
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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Deku
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Posted: Wed, Jun 24 2009, 22:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jun 2009
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Quote: The max song is actually 7ac... And curse song gives -6 to AC at level 20 and at level 26.... So thats +6 to AB... If thats not useful, your insane, Its lke saying nah ts cool I dont want buffed this round. 7 ac requires 30 bard levels, that's not really a good idea i'd say. At lvl 20 it's 5 ac. Quote: Since we are arguing 26/3/1 We also gain a feat from the fighter so you have 6 extra damage per hit, and we make our entire party's AB 6 points higher..
With my lvl progression you go 16 bard/4BG so you get all fighter feats as epic feats. On the other proposed lvl progression you must take the ftr lvl before 20 to ensure 16 bab and 4 base attacks.
Also both builds are equally capable of taking curse song. The disucssion is about lvl progression, not feats. I never recommended dropping curse song to anyone.
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Deku
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Posted: Wed, Jun 24 2009, 22:20 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2009
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Quote: Actually my main point concerning 26 Bard is that it immunises you against the dispel effect of Mords scrolls.
This is basically the crux of the argument. There is really little difference between the lvl progressions. One gets you good protection from a mord scroll and greater dispell, the other gives more epic feats.
I went with 20 caster because I played a battle cleric with 21 CL and never found a problem with getting dispelled.
IF it was a high dispel environment I would have made a bard with more CL, probably 26 too.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Jun 24 2009, 23:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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26 doesn't immunize you against the dispel part of Mordenkainen's. Mordenkainen's displ function is uncapped and will continue to rise up to 30.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 0:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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TormakSaber wrote: 26 doesn't immunize you against the dispel part of Mordenkainen's. Mordenkainen's displ function is uncapped and will continue to rise up to 30.
I know but Mords Scrolls craft at caster level 17 or at least they did.
17 + 1d20 versus 11 + 26 = immunity
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 0:33 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Oh, right, right.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Ts_
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 9:00 AM |
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Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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MoshingChris wrote: 17 + 1d20 versus 11 + 26 = immunity
But a tie (37 vs 37) means dispel, I believe. Compare it to Greater Dispel, where we agree that you need level 25 to be immune:
Greater Dispel can roll up to 15 + 20 = 35 vs 11 + 25 = 36. Level 24 (a possible tie) would not be immune.
So you need caster level 27 to be safe from the dispel part of Mord Scrolls, not 26.
Regards
Ts
_________________
Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"
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Uberuce
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 9:37 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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Deku wrote: Its amazing in pvp and fighting really tough spawns. When you're just running over spawns in as quick a time as possible then it's useless. In Amia 99% of the game is running over spawns with no challenge. Maybe I'm just too much of an action nut, but what's the point of getting to 30 if you're not going to be good at fighting tough monsters or other players? I can think of only one other reason - to help ECL25+ folk get to epic, but skipping Curse Song for that purpose is plainly silly.
The grind's dull as dishwater, so building to be good at that and bad at bosses and PvP is somewhat alien and baffling to me.
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Ts_
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 9:54 AM |
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Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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Uberuce wrote: The grind's dull as dishwater, so building to be good at that and bad at bosses and PvP is somewhat alien and baffling to me.
For a while, even the grind can be fun. Maybe Deku has only few characters that can go through the Abyss and not a vault of epics that call for a new hard-drive in the server? And since we all agree that curse song is useful: Next topic, please!
For telling your coldiron powerbuilder heart about the inherent happiness of noobness, you could tell me what kind of DC I need to knock over "huge" creatures (the kind you can only knock down when you're polymorphed into something "large" or "huge"). I'm not even sure what huge creatures there are on the server, except dragons, which are KD-immune, I believe ... Would something like 55 AB + d20 work? Or phrased more general to include "large" creatures: Does anybody bother to KD things in the Abyss?
Regards
Ts
_________________
Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 10:41 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Many Abyss creatures are KD-proof, IIRC. Or, they used to be. Haven't tried recently. My bogstandard WM7/Bard1/Ftr-rest had no troubles KDing giants at around 25, though.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Uberuce
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 10:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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*drifts back to the days of early 2006, when his first character went epic* Nope, I was smacking bosses then too.
Anyway, any Medium sized character with IKD can qualify for an attempt on everything because Huge is the top size category. Brog giants are Huge, for example, and most tankly types can down them once their AB matures.
Short version: if it says Failed then you're too small, if it says Resisted then you need more AB, or indeed to grab that polymorph, and if it says Hit but they stay upright, they have immunity, which looks stupid.
Many of the Abyss chaps used to have that, but I gave them nigh-impossible Discipline instead since it looks prettier.
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Sokar Rostau
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 11:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Location: Australia
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On a side note, Knockdown in NWN2 is EVIL and extremely annoying.
_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
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Deku
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 11:24 AM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2009
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If I were to re-make my bard today I'd go without dev crit and be a 23bard/4ftr/3BG
This allows you to get Epic weapon spec and still have a good caster lvl.
16/3bg/1ftr to 20.
I'd also take curse song, so people would stop shouting at me 
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Ts_
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 11:48 AM |
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Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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Uberuce wrote: Anyway, any Medium sized character with IKD can qualify for an attempt on everything because Huge is the top size category. Brog giants are Huge, for example, and most tankly types can down them once their AB matures. Oh, KD has less categories than the AB/AC size modifier. I don't know how many times I looked at nwnwiki without realizing this. (And I also forgot that you can KD one size larger than yourself even with regular KD.) Uberuce wrote: Short version: if it says Failed then you're too small, if it says Resisted then you need more AB, or indeed to grab that polymorph, and if it says Hit but they stay upright, they have immunity, which looks stupid.
I guess I should try to KD giants with my dwarf and IKD again, because we all agree that it should not have "failed". Or are dwarves somehow special?
Thanks!
Ts
_________________
Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"
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Deku
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 11:57 AM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2009
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Quote: I guess I should try to KD giants with my dwarf and IKD again, because we all agree that it should not have "failed". Or are dwarves somehow special?
This shouldn't have failed.
Did you remember to change the KD shortcut after you got IKD? If you didn't it will still be KD even though you got IKD.
I've done that before for a good few lvls.
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Ts_
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 12:01 PM |
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Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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Deku wrote: Did you remember to change the KD shortcut after you got IKD? If you didn't it will still be KD even though you got IKD.
No, I probably did not. Thanks a lot for the protip!
Ts
_________________
Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 12:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Ts_ wrote: MoshingChris wrote: 17 + 1d20 versus 11 + 26 = immunity But a tie (37 vs 37) means dispel, I believe. Compare it to Greater Dispel, where we agree that you need level 25 to be immune: Greater Dispel can roll up to 15 + 20 = 35 vs 11 + 25 = 36. Level 24 (a possible tie) would not be immune. So you need caster level 27 to be safe from the dispel part of Mord Scrolls, not 26. Regards Ts I know that i was going to post it but i got tired of this pissing contest.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 12:06 PM |
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Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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IronAngel wrote: Many Abyss creatures are KD-proof, IIRC. Or, they used to be. Haven't tried recently. My bogstandard WM7/Bard1/Ftr-rest had no troubles KDing giants at around 25, though.
I believe only the Vrocks are KD proof. I know when i went through in the worlds greatest non mage party (Manerry, Barandur and Khartak) IKD was a staple.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Uberuce
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 12:28 PM |
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Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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Deku wrote: I'd also take curse song, so people would stop shouting at me That means you haven't taken it yet...
Just lie down on this board beside BlackDahlya, would you?
Chris: proof as in immune, or just Resisty as hell?
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 13:52 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Proof. I've got the IKD success thingo come up and they don't go down.
Also completely on topic. You've got Greater Dispelling everywhere else but not in the Abyss. Reason?
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Sokar Rostau
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 14:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Location: Australia
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Don't encourage him...
_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 15:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Sokar Rostau wrote: Don't encourage him...
I just find it strange that the Abyss from level 21 - 24 is easier than Sags is all.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Sokar Rostau
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 16:38 PM |
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Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Location: Australia
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At level 29 the only thing my Dragonshaper could reasonably solo was Barbarians. At 30 she could solo the Abyss. Just because you could do the Abyss at that level with a 2-man party doesn't mean everyone else can. And, unless Uce changed them, the Overlords cast Mord's.
_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
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hendrack
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 17:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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Isn't it a known fact that dragonshapers are useless till 30? I don't understand why it is important who can solo where at what level? Soloing is just tiresome and a waste of time.
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Uberuce
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 17:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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Sokar Rostau wrote: And, unless Uce changed them, the Overlords cast Mord's. To the best of my knowledge they've never cast Mordy.
Chris: yep, the Immunity is still on their hides. I must have failed at some point in the Send To Disco process.
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Sokar Rostau
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 18:03 PM |
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Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Location: Australia
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That's simply the best example of a useless high level Epic that I could think of, despite the fact that one level later the same build is considered one of the strongest and cheesiest of all.
So one party of two can easily do the Abyss at 21-24? That just means it's a party made up of two strong builds. I've seen parties of 5-6 25+ PCs get wiped out many times in the Abyss. That a pair of strong builds can easily do what 6 average builds have difficulty with is no reason to make the area more difficult.
And, as I said, the reason they don't cast Greater Dispelling is probably because they cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction. They don't do it frequently, but they do do it.
EDIT: Disco watched me in there once and the Overlords cast it on me a few times. This was before the new spawns though.
_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 18:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Sokar Rostau wrote: At level 29 the only thing my Dragonshaper could reasonably solo was Barbarians. At 30 she could solo the Abyss. Just because you could do the Abyss at that level with a 2-man party doesn't mean everyone else can. And, unless Uce changed them, the Overlords cast Mord's.
Pfft obviously i'm not talking about soloing a Wisdom focused Druid. Thats not an issue with game balance thats an issue with End Building. Nothing wrong with it either. You made a plan you wanted Dragonshape and you had a bitch of a time getting there.
Mass Haster + 1 Full BAB str character + 1 summon/other melee chap.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Sokar Rostau
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 18:32 PM |
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Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Location: Australia
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I'm not complaining that I had a hard time. I'm not having a go at you for doing it either, you obviously had a couple of very good builds. But a duo in the Abyss at the levels you mentioned is the exception, not the rule. Most people in that range are doing Yuan-ti, Spires or 'flayers and don't even attempt the Abyss until they're 25+.
I was once in a 4-man sub-23 party that completed the Spires two and a bit times in one rest period without the aid of either Dev Crit or Wail. Should we make the Spires more difficult because that party did it with such ease?
As it's been said many times, Amia is balanced for Joe Average not the strongest cheesiest builds imaginable.
_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 19:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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Sokar Rostau wrote: So one party of two can easily do the Abyss at 21-24? That just means it's a party made up of two strong builds. I've seen parties of 5-6 25+ PCs get wiped out many times in the Abyss. That a pair of strong builds can easily do what 6 average builds have difficulty with is no reason to make the area more difficult.
Strong classes, not strong builds. _________________  UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 19:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Sokar Rostau wrote: I'm not complaining that I had a hard time. I'm not having a go at you for doing it either, you obviously had a couple of very good builds. But a duo in the Abyss at the levels you mentioned is the exception, not the rule. Most people in that range are doing Yuan-ti, Spires or 'flayers and don't even attempt the Abyss until they're 25+.
I was once in a 4-man sub-23 party that completed the Spires two and a bit times in one rest period without the aid of either Dev Crit or Wail. Should we make the Spires more difficult because that party did it with such ease?
As it's been said many times, Amia is balanced for Joe Average not the strongest cheesiest builds imaginable.
I believe when we first got there the class make up was Barb 20 Fighter 1, Bard 20 PDK 1 and Ops Pally/DwD/Fighter.
None of those seem broken cheesy or overly strong. Mind i build primarily for neatness in PvM.
Adding Dispel will in no way effect the vast majority of the player base by your own admission. 25+ = CL immunity to Greater Dispelling. If you've multiclassed your caster heavily thats a build issue not a balance one again.
Adding greater dispel just makes it more difficult for Sub 25's which is why i've only brought up greater dispel and nothing else
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Sokar Rostau
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 20:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Location: Australia
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Manerry's isn't exactly a common build, in fact it's pretty rare to have someone in your party at any level that can give your tank as much AC as he can, most of which is undispellable by anything.
It is a balance issue. What you're effectively saying is that Amia should be balanced for pure, or near-pure, Classes and if you do not have a buffer in your party that meets that criteria then tough luck. Again, that you could do it at that level does not mean that everyone can, and your "solution" to prevent people emulating you harms the people that go there at a more reasonable level.
_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 21:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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Sokar Rostau wrote: Manerry's isn't exactly a common build, in fact it's pretty rare to have someone in your party at any level that can give your tank as much AC as he can, most of which is undispellable by anything
A regular bard will do, for the AC giving part. Otherwise, Manerry's a pretty beefy bugger, but a bug plain level 30 bard would be just as useful Party PvM-wise. _________________ UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2009, 22:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Sokar Rostau wrote: Manerry's isn't exactly a common build, in fact it's pretty rare to have someone in your party at any level that can give your tank as much AC as he can, most of which is undispellable by anything.
It is a balance issue. What you're effectively saying is that Amia should be balanced for pure, or near-pure, Classes and if you do not have a buffer in your party that meets that criteria then tough luck. Again, that you could do it at that level does not mean that everyone can, and your "solution" to prevent people emulating you harms the people that go there at a more reasonable level.
Yes that is what i am effectively saying. No one forces anyone to Multiclass so heavily that at 30 a Rogue can dispel them with a scroll. Thats personal preference.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Uberuce
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Posted: Fri, Jun 26 2009, 7:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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hendrack wrote: Isn't it a known fact that dragonshapers are useless till 30? I don't understand why it is important who can solo where at what level? Soloing is just tiresome and a waste of time. *cries* Kelbrun's not that bad. He shot for 40 once, I swear! Okay, so it was a Bardbuffed Sneakcrit...but 40!
Oh, and that reminds me *notes to give floaty undead head guys and frost fairies immunity to Earthquake.*
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Charles1810
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Posted: Fri, Jun 26 2009, 7:48 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Location: Hubbard, Ohio
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//my bad
_________________
Lieutenant Belalad Feiwallyan
((Please take note if you PM me and you are ignored resend to me in 1-3days, it is likely due to not realizing I got mail))
Last edited by Charles1810 on Fri, Jun 26 2009, 8:26 AM, edited 2 times in total.
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Fri, Jun 26 2009, 7:52 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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Wrong thread, you dirty RPer? Get out! *heft, hurl*
_________________ UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Fri, Jun 26 2009, 9:59 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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*Throws a horse out after him* And the horse i rode in on!
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Sokar Rostau
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Posted: Fri, Jun 26 2009, 13:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Location: Australia
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MoshingChris wrote: Sokar Rostau wrote: Manerry's isn't exactly a common build, in fact it's pretty rare to have someone in your party at any level that can give your tank as much AC as he can, most of which is undispellable by anything.
It is a balance issue. What you're effectively saying is that Amia should be balanced for pure, or near-pure, Classes and if you do not have a buffer in your party that meets that criteria then tough luck. Again, that you could do it at that level does not mean that everyone can, and your "solution" to prevent people emulating you harms the people that go there at a more reasonable level. Yes that is what i am effectively saying. No one forces anyone to Multiclass so heavily that at 30 a Rogue can dispel them with a scroll. Thats personal preference. Okay, you've convinced me. Let's balance Amia for Paladooms and every other build can go to hell.
_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Fri, Jun 26 2009, 15:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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Whats a Paladoom?
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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Deku
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Posted: Fri, Jun 26 2009, 15:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jun 2009
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Apart from killing character diversity the worse thing about dispel is that it's just an extremly unfun game mechanic.
It can be a good balancing tool for a developer but it is just a horrible thing for a player, always.
Getting dispelled just makes your character not able to perform the way you intended it to.
I'd much rather casters got nerfed than lots of dispel casters.
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Uberuce
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Posted: Fri, Jun 26 2009, 16:29 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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I smell a few pages of debate...
Not what this thread's for, folks. Make a Should Uce Ever Give Casters Dispelling Ability thread in Things to Change and I'll argue the toss there.
Last edited by Uberuce on Fri, Jun 26 2009, 16:29 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Fri, Jun 26 2009, 16:29 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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GreatPigeon wrote: Whats a Paladoom?
A sorcerer with a level of paladin. _________________ UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Jun 26 2009, 16:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Uncle-Opustus wrote: GreatPigeon wrote: Whats a Paladoom? A sorcerer with a level of paladin. No.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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