I been asking a lot of questions lately, but that just means you get to practice your answering.

What are the different dieties would be good usage, I will look them all up and decide. Silvanus, Mielikki, Eldath, Nobanion are what I have so far. My character will have to be lawful, but as long as the Diety supports that is fine. He is also Chultan so could one use Ubtao as a God? Or just say worships the plethora of spirts?

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

You're looking at the deities of fury my man or possibly woman.

Talos.
Auril.
Umberlee.

...And Malar.

The rest of the "nature" deities are just push overs, not worth your time at all.

Ubtao's weird coz he's only worshipped IN Chult, best to speak to the lore fanatics about that one though.


By the way, if you take 3 monk levels and dragon shape, I will laugh at you.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

There are a few conflicting lists floating about the books. Namely, the one in Faiths & Pantheons and the one in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Neither is 100% correct or complete, IMO.

There are plenty of nature deities in plenty of cultures and among various races. If you're just looking for a Faerûnian human who isn't from Mulhorand, you've got the aforemention. I'd add the Elemental Lords to the list. Lurue the Unicorn is one you're missing.

But yeah, Chultans have three main religions: Ubtao belief, spirit worship and jungle druidism. I described all of them briefly in the latest page (or the one before that?) of the Lore Questions thread. I am not sure, but I think Ubtao might only grant powers within Chult. You should check that. But worshiping spirits and several nature gods with one nominal "patron" works just fine. My shaman worships all of the Elemental Lords and several spirits, and he's not really a representative of any church. For purposes of the game, Akadi is his "patron" but really that's just one of the sources of his power.

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Im going ranger No dragon shape But I might reskin the boar as a dinosaur!

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

I'm running a ranger right now and had thought initially about making him a chultan and ubtao follower but someone made the comment that ubtao wouldn't be a good choice as he only has "power" within chult. Twas a dm if I recall correctly and I didn't want to have a lore-unfriendly choice so I bagged it and went a different direction with him.

I'm pleased with how it's turned out for him but it's kinda tough luck situation for Chultans out there since Ubtao is their primary diety and Ranger is their favored class and really they can't go together well here on Amia.

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

Correct, Ubtao is only worshiped in Chult. He has no power anywhere else.



Although I love Umberlee, Malar and Talos, I totally disagree. To imply that nature should be represented by evil only is flawed. Silvanus is by far the coolest nature god. He's True Neutral and wants nature to take it's course in the truest of fashions. If you try and mess that up, he kicks your ass with the wrath that even Talos would fear.

Besides, because he's making a lawful character, he can only choose Auril out of those gods. In my opinion, she's the least cool of them all.

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If you're going to be a Chult of the jungle who's lawful, I would look into Nobanion. He's an awesome nature god with a -very- lawful and jungle themed background.

But any who, here's a list for you to go through. I don't know what race you're making so I'll add race deities too. Mind that there are a lot more nature gods but because you're going to be Lawful, you limit yourself to these:

Good aligned
Chauntea - Goddess of Tame Nature and Agriculture
Nobanion - God of Good Beasts, Lions and Feline Beasts
Mielikki - Goddess of Forests and Rangers
Eldath - Goddess of Peace, Waterfalls, Springs, Pools and Guardian of Groves
Gwaeron Windstrom - God of Tracking and Rangers
Shiallia - Goddess of Woodland Glades, Fertility and Growth
Baervan Wildwanderer - Gnomish God of Nature
Segojan Earthcaller - Gnomish God of Nature and Earth
Stronmaus - Giant God of Sun, Sky and Weather

Neutral aligned
Silvanus - God of Wild Nature and Druids
Ulutiu - God of Arctic and Polar environments Glaciers
Sheela Peryroyl - Hin Goddess of Nature, Agriculture and Weather
Urogalan - Hin God of Earth and Death (doesn't support Druids though)
Hiatea - Giant Goddess of Nature, Agriculture and Hunting

Evil aligned
Auril - Goddess of Cold, Winter and Ice

Elemental Gods (All of which are True Neutrals)
Istishia - God of Water
Kossuth - God of Fire
Akadi - Goddess of Air
Grumbar - God of Earth

Have fun going through that.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

There's also elven nature deities, though they're a bit more concerned with elves than nature, to my knowledge.

Aerdrie Faenya - Air/Avariel elves
Deep Sashelas - Water/Sea elves

None I can think of that'd really be associated with fire or earth, at least off the top of my head.

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Named Most Influential Character, Amia Awards 2011

Poor Rillifane getting forgotten like that.

Though yeah typically races tend to follow the gods in their own patheon though exceptions are not at all unheard of.

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...Hereof follows that the social contract is only beneficial as long as all have something and none have too much...
- Rousseau Book 1 Chapter 9 in "The Social Contract"

Shaundakul and the dwarven god of trailblazing are by far the most awesome Ranger deities. Too bad they are both chaotic, for his char concept I mean.

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"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II

Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.

Na, I didn't forget the Elven gods or the Dwarven god of nature, it's just that they're all chaotic so he won't be able to choose them as patrons with the deity system. You can certainly worship them and pay your respects though. I'm actually a fan of Rillifane Rallathil. I think he's an awesome god. He's a total Elven aspect of Silvanus.

There's no fire god of the Elves. There's no earth one either but I think Sehanine Moonbow, being the protector of the dead, might be the closest one. Maybe even Angharradh or Rillifane Rallathil too.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

I still think that the Deities of Fury are the top choice. As I said, the rest of the deities are just push over hippies.

What's more appealing really? Talos, the god of storms who encourages his followers that destruction is natural and should be embraced... or Nobanion the god of good beasts that hug and kiss their druid friends?

Seriously dude, look into the Deities of Fury.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

Talos and Malar are great, Auril and Umberlee are pretty lame, as far as the Furies go.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

That couldn't be any farther from the true. Silvanus is very wrathful, he's not a pushover at all. If you try and disrupt the balance, you'll likely find yourself dead in a very very gruesome way at the hands of Silvanus via wild animals and/or magical beasts. As for Nobanion, it's better to compare him to Malar since they're very very alike in almost every way except intentions. Malar teaches to hunt and kill for bloodlust and simply because you can. Nobanion teaches to hunt and kill for food and for protection.

I do like the deities of fury though. Save for Auril. Not a fan. My favorite evil nature deity though is not of the fury deities at all: Talona. Talona is way awesome. She's the goddess of diseases and poisons.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

I'd go for Angharradh as the mother goddess, or maybe Hanali as the goddess of love and supposedly fertility. Rillifane is an easy connection to make, but it is not traditional (in the real world or FR) for a deity of nature and wildlife to also be the deity of earth itself. That's usually some kind of a creator god or fertility goddess.

Talos is the coolest of the evil gods though, yeah. So what if you're LE? I wouldn't mind if a LE cleric was worshiping him, at least. As long as you could stick to both your alignment and the dogma believably.

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I would. He's Chaotic Evil, and his allowed alignments are Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil, and Chaotic Neutral. His dogma is that of wanton, random, rampant destruction and teach people to worship him to appease him so he doesn't blow them the fuck up on a whim.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Agreed. I don't think a lawful cleric would worship him as a patron. Ever. Can he fear him and pay his respects so as to not have his wrath come down on him? Hell yes. But no. But we're forgetting he's making a Ranger, not a cleric or a Druid. Not to mention, he never said he was making an evil Ranger.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

Im doing reading on chultans and such, I rather have a faerun diety taht works on Amai though. And not entirely sure on everything. I dont like lawful good for paladin, maybe im stupid but i find a hard time understanding lawful-evil. I do ok lawful nuetral me thinks. Minus not getting any bonus gear for good or evil. Is tehre good Ranger gear out there? Ive never really looked or noticed.

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

That's not true. Faiths & Avatars lists the following alignments among his worshipers: LN, N, CN, NE, LE, CE. These are the clergy alignments: CN, LE, NE, CE. So his dogma has clearly been considered suitable for a wider range of people, by the very same Eric L. Boyd who worked on both books.

F&P wanted to fit three books into one and didn't feel like checking the individual alignments of every deity, so they just said "One step" for convenience. Doesn't make it true, it's just a general guideline. It's widely accepted that while F&P technically trumps the details in the other three deity books, its goal was to condense the information and thus shouldn't be taken literally. If you want to reduce a deity description from five pages to one, you're going to have to leave some things unsaid, but it doesn't magically make them go away.

Well, we don't enforce alignments anyhow, so it's pretty moot. But I see nothing incompatible with Talos and LE, and apparently the world's creators don't, either.

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Are you sure Chultans cannot gain power from Ubtao outside the jungle, by the way? I didn't find anything like that in F&P, but there was mention of the other deities agreeing not to enter his domain. Shar recently broke this deal, though. What's the original source for that agreement, anyone know?

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Eh... I personally hate it when they let a Lawful or Chaotic god allow the opposite. Same with Good and Evil. I always thought they should have made Talos Neutral Evil so that he's a better fit as the main evil nature deity. I can't argue with the makers I guess but I personally find it pretty damn stupid.

Ubtao is said to only have power within Chult and nowhere else. Yes, Shar broke that agreement but I'm not sure if he's aware of that or not. I would imagine he wouldn't be able to give powers to Chults outside of Chult but I don't know for sure.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

At this point the rest of your post really doesn't matter because as you like to argue so often: Wizards has the final say. And since they say, in the last applicable edition, that it's NE/CE/CN, that's what it is.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I just double checked F&P and they actually got the unique cleric alignments for Sune, Mask, Shar and even Urogalan right. I don't know if I believe that they would mess up on Talos but not Urogalan. I'm inclined to believe that the clerical alignments for Talos changed then.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

ghaunadaur is where its at....

Get your underdark deity outa here!


By the way, anyone who says Talos is cool but Gruumsh isn't I'm going to laugh at.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

Wizards has the final say in regards to their products, but nothing that happens outside of the pages of their books. Once you read a book, that knowledge becomes yours. From meaningless information, you create new knowledge in communication with the text. All the philosohical banter aside: Wizards' Realms exist nowhere but within their heads. It's not even in the books: the books only contain an attempt to communicate their idea to others, and that idea will obviously become different when it's interpreted by individuals. We're not playing Wizards' Realms. We're playing our Realms, and we must carefully and critically evalute the material we're provided with to decide what to include.

And seriously, you're not meant to take everything you read literally. You must understand the layers beneath and behind the text. That's what they teach in grade school in Finland, but I don't know about the States. We all very well know the trends and typical traits of FR products released in different periods, and we would be quite naive not to consider them. Since we know for certain that things were simplified, dropped, streamlined and condensed across the board during the time of F&P's release, we would be poor readers not to understand the effect that has on the text.

Wizards certainly don't have the final say on how we play our unique world. It's ours, not theirs. I never have and never would argue such, and if you truly belive that you've completely misunderstood my clear and consistent stance for years.

What we should and shouldn't include is up to discussion, but I think I have a rather strong case to make (especially since no comparable case has been made to dispute that) and in the end, it's everyone's individual decision. If you want to think Talos will not accept LE followers, you're free to do so while I continue to believe that he, in fact, does.


GuNz: His dogma did not change. His clergy did not undergo a documented change. There have been no recorded events that would explain such a change. Therefore, it seems likely that no change took place, after all. It is not only Talos, either: the same applies to the vast majority of deities. Look it up in Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons or Demihuman Deities. Lolth has male clerics and LE clerics in Demihuman Deities, but they're suddenly absent in F&P while nothing in her divine nature has changed at that point. Which is more likely: that an IC-driven change happened in the game world, or that the game designers wanted to a clearer image, simpler rules and less text for Lolth's entry? The latter reason doesn't of course invalidate the material's canon value, but it certainly means we have no need to agree and follow their reasoning when there's plenty of higher quality material available on the matter.

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Im still thinking as Ranger, he'd be versed in everything really. Not realyl using just one patron saint if you will but going for the whole bit of them.

Pray to Talos before a major storm, pray to one of the 'hippy' nature gods when animal companion is sick. ETC ETC

Does Pigeon get a point?

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

With all humble respects intended, Iron:

As some say.. this Module is based around 3.0/3.5 and that is what the primary basis of any lore based choice should be. Or at most, any additional choices beyond the 3.0/3.5 loreset, should be agreed upon by the DM team as a whole.

The old books, while providing a good deep history, should not be the primary basis off of which to run.

With no respect intended....

Iron just has a hardon for 2.0 over everything else.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I still think that in a place where there is polytheism, nobody worships only one guard extensively. Thieves worship tymora and mask depending. And everyone offers a prayer up to whatever God seems to fit the bill at the time, Im not uberloremaster Pigeon here. But I think paying homage to many gods is a good way not to get smited.

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

Oh, you're absolutely righ,t but in that token, it's not uncommon for adventurers, and specifically the divine classes, to venerate one patron, normally the one hat grants them their spells, above all others.

Exclusive worship is more predominant among the evil deities than the good ones.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Ah, gotcha, yeah I figure helm,ilmater,torm all those lovie dovie dont mind. I think Cyric would get might jealous and smite you for going near an altar of another god without desecrating it.

Specifically a Ranger though. I read about them and they dont neccessary love nature, just know how to get around in it.
For this build though my char is gonna enjoy being in nature instead of citites.
Going from Chult to Cordor will be a very big culture shock for him.

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

Why? Just because Wizards made s stupid stupid choice by saying "Oh! Umm... Talos was Gruumsh all along! Yeah! Thats it!"? Talos is a million times cooler than Gruumsh every will be. Gruumsh didn't even keep Talos portfolio of storms, earthquakes, vortices, destruction and rebellion. Gruumsh is cool and all, but he doesn't compare to Talos. And I refuse to except their story that Talos was Gruumsh all along with no story and just obvious crap "lore". Besides, that's 4th edition. It holds no water on Amia



They teach us plenty about critical reading here in the states actually. I dare say that was slightly offensive even. Just because we disagree with what you're saying hardly justifies you calling us crap readers in a subtle manner. Critical reading is one thing, blatant disregard and/or change of text meant to provide you the base for a game, in other words, rules, is another thing entirely. What you're suggesting is going into a homebrew. I have nothing against homebrew but that would have to be agreed on by the DM team wouldn't it? LE for Druids or Clerics of Talos is just bad all around, IMO.



You're right, most people do (or should, IMO, but I'm not here to force it on anyone.) worship multiple gods. Every single one of my characters does. But, all my characters also have a patron. All else comes second or third and so on. Especially for a divine caster (that's not a Cleric or Druid), I still like to have them have a patron.

For example, with three of my divine casting characters:

Willow (Druid) worships Silvanus first and foremost. Secondly, Selune and Sheela Peryroyl, equally. Third, the rest of the Hin gods, Tymora, most goodly and neutral gods of nature and the elemental gods. Of course, she also pays respect to a bunch of other random gods, simply out of respect itself for what they do. She payed random respects to even Eilistraee, Lathander, Kelemvor, Ilmater, Salandra, Sharess, Corellon Larethian, etc. etc.

Tu'jol (Cleric) worships Eilistraee first and foremost. Secondly, Corellon Larethian. Third, Selûne, Sehanine Moonbow, Hanali Celanil, Lathander, Finder and Deep Sashelas. She's payed random respects to other gods as well, though she's less open to other faiths than Willow.

Benki (Ranger) worships Urogalan first and foremost. Secondly, Sheela Peryroyl and Yondalla, equally. Third, the rest of the Hin gods, save for Brandobaris. He has respect for Kelemvor and Grumbar because they're gods of death and earth respectively. He respects the gods of nature as well, though he doesn't know much about them outside of Sheela Peryroyal, Urogalan and Mielikki. He's pretty ignorant about non Hin faith at the moment though so that's pretty much it.

Think of it like Catholicism kind of. People have beloved saints and then they have their Jesus (God). So pick your "Jesus" and pick your beloved "saints".

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

My lore sucks, and although i can see it being neat to quote out random Gods, I will have to much trouble remembering that much lore, not quite the sponge I used to be. Seeign how he is a Ranger and recent arrival to Amia, via Chult, I dont know if paying respects to all these strange and foreign gods is good idea.

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

That's the beauty of it, you'll be starting at lvl 1 so you have no spells anyway. It's not like you're starting out at a high lvl, unless you're burning DC's to lvl him/her from the get go. So while you RP, you'll start to learn about the gods on Amia and you can make your choice IC.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

I only have 1 DC I never even knew about what it looked to get one, I was in Wiltun playing on Karvo and it said you have received 1 DC.. I got all giddy. Been playing 2 months, and got my first one.

But for the God think, Im pretty sure I will still have him revere Ubtao and feel the kinship for forest/jungle spirits. But needs a 'patron diety' for Amia. Can take the chult out of the jungle, but not the jungle from the chult.

Anyone have any resources or references on playing a Chultan. Im planning on playing a ranger who sold lizard skins to the merchant cities, hence is hatred of reptilian from the start would make a lot of sense RP wise. He is nervous and mistrusting of large cities but can go in reprovision and get out.

I dont see them as jamaican as i've seen some play them as, nor stupid jungle dwellers either. I think they are pretty much how i view established governments in african countries. Mostly despotism and tyrants (trial leaders) although the government is organized it is not efficiet, there is cities, but just a few steps outside the city and bam there is wildlife. Not much middle ground, its either civilized or not, rich or poor. Is this to far off.

I used to live in Alaska and so Im gonna use the native americans persepctive on life I think it matches well, just instead of ice and cold and bears, gonna be jungle and rain/heat and dinosaurs! *rawr*

Any ideas on accents and such though? And do Chults have their own language?

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

Actually I think it was set up quite well. For one, both Gruumsh and Talos' prefered weapon is the spear, they're both missing the same eye and their main portfolio is destruction. Every other portfolio Talos had (storms, earthquakes, rebellion and vertices) are covered under destruction, they're just minor forms of the big D. It also gave some emphasis to Umberlee in the storms portfolio who, in 3rd ed, was just a cheap rip off of Talos but at sea.

There's logic in the "incomprehensible 4th ed" lore. Alongside killing the entire Drow Pantheon leaving Drow doomed to be evil forever it was one of the few smart choices made by WotC. I mean who can't love Gruumsh? He massacred the entire Mulhorandi pantheon single handedly. Combining him with Talos makes him one of the most powerful deities out there (and maybe this time he'll finally beat that bastard Corellon!)

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

Meh, I think it was cheap and they should have put better lore behind it. Talos was a great god that should have been left alone. They better make Talona or Malar stronger now. They're the most fit to lead as the best evil deities now that Talos is gone, IMO.



No, you have the wrong pantheon. He only killed Re from the Mulhorandi pantheon. You're thinking of the Untheric pantheon. He didn't kill them all though and it wasn't single handedly. It was during the Orc wars and all the Orc gods played a part in the death of most of the pantheon. Assuran (Hoar), Tiamat and Gilgeam (Who died later during the times of trouble) all survived. And though they killed Marduk, he was actually an aspect of Bahamut all along so he didn't actually die.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

GuNz: Pretty much everything is "homebrew." It is canon only until you read it. The moment the information in a book becomes knowledge in your head, it's no longer the same. It becomes yours, you have interpreted it, you have created it. As the rules page says, we are a role-playing world based on the Forgotten Realms. We aren't the Forgotten Realms, because it only exists in a theoretical canon universe. It is our job to interpret and create the world as we see fit.

I agree that we are based on 3.5 timeline-wise, and 3.0 mechanics-wise. However, setting-wise we are based on the Forgotten Realms as a whole. We simply cannot understand the setting if we limit ourselves to one source and elevate it to a revered position.

While I do have a hard-on for 2e, it's pretty irrelevant. The point is, looking at any one book or edition and using that as an authority is narrow-minded and wrong. It simply means you will, with absolute certainty, misunderstand the setting. You must consider all material ever published on a given matter, and then create a synthesis that seems the most likely and interesting. Arguing about something based solely on one FR product is like debating Shakespear's works if you've only ever seen Romeo and Juliet on TV. The 3.0 books are part of the world, and granted, the part with the most authority in our game. But they're not the end-all. Books are written by people. People make mistakes, and people have different opinions. That's why it's incredibly unreliable to base your opinion on one source only. Everyone who studies history, literature or other humanities knows that you must use as many sources as possible, so that you can form a reliable synthesis. Studying the Realms should be no different from studying historical documents, really. The point of both is to recreate an unknown world with unknown events. The Realms, as I see it, aren't "given" to us anywhere. They're only incompletely described in various sources, and we have to build the world ourselves, based on the bits of lore we're given in books.


The setting has 40 years of history and 20 years of publishing. If you want to stick to one book and one subjective opinion published 7 years ago, I can't stop you. But I think it's pretty unfruitful, and I'm going to look at the entire setting in its historical context to come up with as balanced, accurate and unbiased opinion as possible.

The great thing about Amia is that things like this aren't usually a DM Team decision. Within reason, we give every single player to freedom to interpret and play the world themselves. While I am strongly convinced my interpretation is the most accurate and the best for our game (and the contents of my argument still haven't been refuted), I acknowledge others may disagree and they're free to do so. I don't think it's my place to tell you you're playing your anarchist elf or gentle-mannered druid "wrong" and you must stop it, even if I would do it different. That's why I can also expect the same courtesy from others if I want to play a Lawful Evil Talassan. (If you read his dogma, which was quite inaccurately paraphrased in this topic, it seems quite fit for certain LE types, whatwith the submission and loyalty to avoid his wrath etc.) Revel in diversity. Be an elitist if you want, but don't be a dreary nay-sayer.

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