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Uncle-Opustus
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 Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 11:08 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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WonWon wrote: Uncle-Opustus wrote: IronAngel wrote: Epic Dodge doesn't give you AC, and you're not going to hit anything with Improved Expertise, so it's pretty moot. True. But the point was if it's possible to reach an AC like that. I don't honestly think that a build with 80 AC could ever be an enjoyable character to play. Now: 10 base + 5 natural + 5 dodge + 5 deflection + 5 armour + 8 lamecheese towershield + 15 from Dex + 10 from Improved expertise + 4 from Haste + 1 from Dodge when fighting toe-to-toe + 6 from Tumble + 2 from Armour Skin + 1 from being a wee little bastard = 77, 82 if we count Epic Dodge in, as it can be imaginated as +5 AC bonus, although it's a bit better than just that. It's not rocket science. The purpose of saying you have 77 AC is so you can claim that something is over or underpowered in reference to something else. However, that doesn't take the rest of the build into account. You can't, for example, have Full AB and Imp Expertise on at the same time - since you're getting a +10 to one and a -10 to the other. That -10 makes it no longer viable, because you're now akin to a microscopic kitten - a pain in the arse to hit, but the worst it's going to do to you is hiss at you and bat at you harmlessly with its paws. Yes, that was pretty much my point B. Point A was that it indeed is possible, but point B was that it sucks balls. _________________  UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 11:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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I know  Was pointing it out for the casual reader.
My point is that if you want to say that X, Y, Z can get stat A, B, and C for purposes of instigating change K, L, and M; make sure it's actually a valid point and that you're taking all factors into account.
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Ghostie_1
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 11:29 AM |
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Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Location: United States
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So then if we're talking that the druid/monk/shifter has a max ac something like 82, is that with or without improved expertise?
Because if it's with, that'd drop that dragon's ab to about a 34, which ain't hitting much.
72 ac, don't get me wrong, is still high, and I say again that I wouldn't moan like a scolded child if dragon monk ac was dropped to low/mid sixties, buffed.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 11:34 AM |
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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Unlikely. Just because a main strength of some builds isn't reflected in the strengths presented by the Dragon form, doesn't mean we're going to raise it to get up there.
Short form;
So what if Dexers can get their AC psuedo-high. They're Dexers.
You're a Shifter. Shifters are, by concept, less powerful than most of their kin; however they get maneuverability. Need a face-tank? Go Gargoyle or Risen Lord. Need some sneaking power or need to make an escape? Kobold Commando with HiPS. Want some basic Damage Dishing potential? Dragon.
Your general Fighter gets an AC of 55-ish before -external- buffs. And he's a true blue fighter made to be up front kicking things arses and taking the brunt of battle.
Why should a Shifter pop up to the front line and go "hehehehe. I'm better at this than you!"? Easy answer; they shouldn't.
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Ghostie_1
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 11:40 AM |
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Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Location: United States
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Erm, well, it's a dragon... So, if you were gonna put a bet on who'd be a better frontline "kicking arse" type, would you go for the human soldier, or for the freaking dragon?
Personally, I'd bet on the dragon.
... And I'd probably be right.
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 11:46 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Except:
a) This is a game, and a game requires balance;
b) Try that logic with a Uce-build vs Windy.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 11:47 AM |
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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Tell that to Windreaper and Icingdeath.
Yes, it's a dragon. Not a True dragon, however, so it's not a 20+ INT full grown dragon with a full, intimate knowledge of how to toss its weight around effectively, how to counter for its sheer mass and how to fore-aim targets based on distance and limb length. Add in its size causing for a rather heavily cumbersome combatant by nature that can't fit through doorways.
Compare that to the Fighter who's donned in equipment built for slaying all manner of creatures - especially those of the like of Dragons, Demons, Devils and the like, garbed in a perfectly fitting suit of fullplate adjusted to his exact tastes, with a blade purposefully enchanted to cut through the toughest hides and armors. Not to mention, he's one with his blade in technique; he's trained with that specific field of weapon all his life, knowing how to use it, how to make it arc the perfect direction to sever the right organs in the right manner.
I'd go for the fighter, any day of the year.
And this is all before going for the 'Gameplay Balance' side of things.
Why should a Druid or Shifter, neither of which are fighting classes, get the ability to change into something that's better than the people who actually put a statistical input into these specific fields?
Shifter is a Utility Class. Your party needs a fighter? You become a fighter. Party needs a flanker? You become a flanker. Party needs ranged support? You become ranged support.
In this heavily maneuverability comes weakness. You don't get to specialize, or heavily focus, in a field to be truly 'brilliant' at it; instead you get the ability to operate in any situation with a comparatively good amount of compotency compared to the other members of your party.
And this concept, is what Shifter on Amia is also mechanically balanced around. So yes, you'll be inferior to the Fighter if you're in a Fighting form. Just as you'll be an inferior sneak to the Rogue, and an inferior ranged support than the AA.
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Ghostie_1
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 11:50 AM |
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Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Location: United States
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It's a game, sure, and sure, it requires balance. I'm just saying that it's illogical to say that the fighter should trump a dragon easily in combat.
Let's not forget that that dragon is pretty costly. 30 wisdom prereq? That's a big deal, and you gotta sacrifice a lot of feats for it. Hellball's got a high prereq, and squishes... everything. Dragon shifter should probably have a similar squishtitude value.
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ticket
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 11:51 AM |
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Joined: 02 Jan 2009
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WonWon wrote: Your general Fighter gets an AC of 55-ish before -external- buffs. And he's a true blue fighter made to be up front kicking things arses and taking the brunt of battle.
It's even less than that truth be told. With tumble dump and no epic loots, fighter types get 51 AC. My WM has that and he's happy enough to tank up to flayers and Sahuagins with just his potions. It might be expensive with heal kits or very tiring with the constant use of IKD and expertise mode but it's doable. He won't be tanking any dungeon higher than those unless he has good buffs from party mates.
For the dragon shape, my own ball park guess is that its AC should sit at a comfortable 58. And even if it's 'only' 55 or 50, trust me it's more than enough for PvM Amia.
If you want to go for PvP, go cleric or mage. You're a shifter not an epic boss dragon.
Last edited by ticket on Sat, Jun 06 2009, 11:53 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 11:51 AM |
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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Ghostie_1 wrote: It's a game, sure, and sure, it requires balance. I'm just saying that it's illogical to say that the fighter should trump a dragon easily in combat.
Let's not forget that the fighters are epicz fighters who have fought thousands of hordes of evil bastards etc etc. _________________ UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 11:53 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Hellball doesn't squish everything. IF you've ever used it or seen it in action, you'll know this. Also, it's 1/day; not All Day (unlike Dragonform)
Most Epic Creatures can negate at least 50% of the damage (Negative immunity), and Almost every epic creature has enough HP to endure it even if it does full damage. You're better with Greater Ruin, really, and that's Single Target 1/day.
Dragon Form sitting at a flat 50 AC with some token DR and a good Damage output is ideal.
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 11:56 AM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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50AC blows for the 30 wis requirement. 55 - 60 and I wont feel so cheated.
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Ghostie_1
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 11:56 AM |
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Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Location: United States
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Alright, I'll agree pretty completely with that.
Shifter shouldn't be the best at anything, necesarily, and it may not be a true dragon, but come on, it is -still- a dragon, and shouldn't be total fodder in a fight with a fighter.
And if I want PvP, how crappy is it that I'm told to build a mage or a cleric? -_-
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 11:58 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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50 AC when added to the fact that you have Good DR, Bioware True Seeing (Definate plus against some of our newer spawns), and a Breath weapon which does actually work against quite a few targets?
It's pretty good.
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Mostly Retired
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 12:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Ghostie_1 wrote: it is -still- a dragon, and shouldn't be total fodder in a fight with a fighter.
If you want to bring out that, remember that a Great Wyrm Red Dragon is only CR 26.
You are quite good - DR, Dragonsight and Breathweapon.
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ticket
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 12:07 PM |
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Joined: 02 Jan 2009
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Ghostie_1 wrote: And if I want PvP, how crappy is it that I'm told to build a mage or a cleric? -_-
Sadly it's the truth. :<
(Well maybe add a bard, paladin, bg, or ranger in there.)
But the one build that can kill them all is simply the mage.
So what, eh. I would still make a druid one day and still enjoy playing my monk, CoT, rogues, etc characters.
Not all classes are equal. Period.
I think you should just lower your PvP expectations and just enjoy your cool dragon.
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Ghostie_1
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 12:07 PM |
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Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Location: United States
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That breath weapon doesn't mean beans if the fighter power-shanks you, in the first round, before you even get a chance to utilize said "amped" breath weapon.
The DR also does nothing against dev crit, and the dragonsight only helps against what tries to hide from you, so still effective against sneaks, but I just have to accept dragon shape being useless in a fight against a fighter?
That's fine I guess, there's always illithid and kobold HiPS spamming.
Mad as I am about this, I may eventually learn to love having to think on my feet to win.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 12:09 PM |
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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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We don't balance for PvP, and the fact your Fighting form gets trounced by a True Fighter gives very little incentive to actually change the facts.
So, yes, you'd have to accept that you are indeed inferior to the bloke who's spent 30 levels (or slightly less, given subraces) to be a True, High-End Fighter.
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 12:12 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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DR is beaten by +4 IIRC. Meh, regardless, as long as the breathweapon is brought upto par with shapechange version its all good.
Sad fact is you gotta suck for 25+ levels or so depending on your build, before getting this. It should just be worth the sacrifice. 50AC doesnt fill me with confidence oh well
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 12:19 PM |
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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Ghostie_1 wrote:
The DR also does nothing against dev crit, and the dragonsight only helps against what tries to hide from you, so still effective against sneaks, but I just have to accept dragon shape being useless in a fight against a fighter?
My DwD would give his left bollock to reach 50 AC and still have that huge lovely DR. He'd give his right bollock too, if he got the TS and AB those draggies have. _________________ UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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QPR
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 12:29 PM |
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Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway
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I havent tried Dragon Shape yet, but from what i understend it is nerfed from a DR of 40/+6 to something/+4, and claw enchantement from +6 to +4 (could this get added to the sidebar btw?). Though I do not know the spawns you encounter at 30 ish, I would imagine most of them have +4 weapons or better, thus rendering the DR irrelevant, and various protective spells gives casters a something/+5 DR, rendering the +4 claws quite insignificant as well.
So for a druid with neither shifter nor monk levels, I have the feeling that the Dragon Shape is just a cool, but not very usefull shape that is fun to show off before your friends. A druid would probably be just as well off with stopping at 28 wis and get epic spell focus and Epic Dragon Knight instead.
But once again, I havent actuallt gotten to the point where I have DS, so I very well might be wrong.
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Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 12:32 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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I'm hoping that when he new changes are done they will all be added to the sidebar.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
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davis114
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 17:21 PM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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So...monk's losing their AC bonus on shifts. Understood. Is that all that's being done with the dragon? Cause...that would leave the big ole 30 wis shifter a bit screwed in normal pvp, and even pvm, with just that +4 DR.
I think arguing against the change, at this point, would be completely pointless, as it's gonna be done now whether the monk/shifters like it or not. But, as I understand it, all the changes haven't been made, or set. So, if they are to lose this much AC, are you giving them anything in return?
Or just...you iz are powerbuild so you iz are punished?
_________________  MoshingChris wrote: Dude makes like a drunk even when he's sober.
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Kendera
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 17:23 PM |
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Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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WonWon wrote: 50 AC when added to the fact that you have Good DR, Bioware True Seeing (Definate plus against some of our newer spawns), and a Breath weapon which does actually work against quite a few targets?
It's pretty good.
Darlin, the Amia DR added onto the shifters dragon shapes is a jokeworthy peice of steaming poo.
Revert it back to normal, or hell, 20/+6, and it'd be worth something.
And the shifters breath weapon ALSO sucks complete !@#.
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Kaylee Diam, Cordorian Spellsword
Schala Wintermoon, Ravenloft escapee, Priestess of Akadi
Constance Silverhand- Quirky elven monk.
[img]http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1263/kayleessigcopyeg9.jpg[/img]
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jafman30
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 17:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Location: The Land of Confusion.
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Kendera, Davis, and Ghostie have it covered pretty well. Powerbuilds either have high AC and meh AB, or high AB and meh AC. Dragon already has the high AC meh AB, so if you take down on the AC give them back on AB! Or keep their AB the way it is and lower the AC and give them back their better DR and regular claw enhancements.
Not like they can get claws off looting right?
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Xanon .: Talonite!
Xiladei .: Amethyst Dragon Disciple.
Ryth .: Returning Elven Archer. Missing for some time.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 19:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Kendera wrote: WonWon wrote: 50 AC when added to the fact that you have Good DR, Bioware True Seeing (Definate plus against some of our newer spawns), and a Breath weapon which does actually work against quite a few targets?
It's pretty good. Darlin, the Amia DR added onto the shifters dragon shapes is a jokeworthy peice of steaming poo. Revert it back to normal, or hell, 20/+6, and it'd be worth something. And the shifters breath weapon ALSO sucks complete !@#. I know. Remember, back in the day I played the only Druid10/Shifter20 on the server, and got him there through hunting.
I know the form sucks.
However, the reason we're nerfing the Wis to AC, is so we can safely -boost- these forms and others to a point of usefulness, without making Monk/Druids or Monk/Shifters overpowered.
I doubt a Big, Hulking, Gigantic Dragon is going to get higher AC, but I'd wager we're gonna make it's DR actually useful (Not 40/+6; that's overdoing it by a few miles)
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corypx
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 19:58 PM |
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Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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WonWon wrote: Compare that to the Fighter who's donned in equipment built for slaying all manner of creatures - especially those of the like of Dragons, Demons, Devils and the like, garbed in a perfectly fitting suit of fullplate adjusted to his exact tastes, with a blade purposefully enchanted to cut through the toughest hides and armors. Not to mention, he's one with his blade in technique; he's trained with that specific field of weapon all his life, knowing how to use it, how to make it arc the perfect direction to sever the right organs in the right manner.
Umm so being a "fighter" shifter does that mean I could be able to hit and kill the flayer boss? because as I have mastered the art of the scythe after about 3 hours of auto attack he was still at uninjured 
but one thing we are all forgeting is the 50AC they want to give dragons, that will be befor buffs right, so you have Armor/sheild/head to add stuff on, like Dex/Tumble/AC also the talents/skills so tumble dump for what a extra 4ish AC? add in spells like bark skin....ect they should get 60AC+ no problem right? _________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE) 
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Kendera
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 20:02 PM |
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Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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So give it crap AC, and any less than 30 dr and watch a fighter abuse it. The Pre-req, as before stated, is shite.
It's well known that every powerbuild has at least one other build that is it's weakness, so just make the decision of what you want to be the dragons weakness.
A damn gargoyle shouldnt face tank better than a dragon.
Sure, i cant hit you, but you cant hurt me.
So I lol at you and walk away, while my 12341234/+10 DR makes you a joke.
I dont want that on dragon, but perhaps middle of the road?
If the shifter has crap AC but 30/+6, you need the univeral ass beater (mage) or a weapon master to lay some serious hurt on it. ETC.
You guys know what I mean, I think. We've been arguing about it for neigh a year. Lol.
I'll go away now.
Cookies for all!
_________________
Kaylee Diam, Cordorian Spellsword
Schala Wintermoon, Ravenloft escapee, Priestess of Akadi
Constance Silverhand- Quirky elven monk.
[img]http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1263/kayleessigcopyeg9.jpg[/img]
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corypx
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 20:14 PM |
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Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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well in terms of DR I think it should be Damage-resistance, if we are ment to be not as good as pure classes(and I get that), we should be way better then Familiars and Animal Companions (21st – 30th CL: 15/- ) for them.
anyone with a form needing a feat to be picked should get 15/-
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Jun 06 2009, 20:34 PM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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You guys are preaching to a combination of the choir and a brick wall: We're not any more likely to listen to your opinions when you scream them over and over in circles than when you're whispering them politely.
Round and round the topic goes and where it stops, Tormak knows.
And the buck stops here.
Trust us to at least halfway know what we're doing here, people. 
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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