Another thought: How do you fight something that can kill you in one swing? Either build a lame HiPS spammer, or a cheese build that's hard to hit. That, or build something that can kill what can kill you in one swing first.
Depressing.

Undead shape. *ducks*

Not that I disagree with the rest of what you're saying, but this is wrong. Dev crit can't be nerfed, otherwise it would have been IIRC.

_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

There's no need for dev crit to be nerfed really, an RDD-fighter type can get the DC to ~42. At the moment my cleric has 45 Fort saves and only fails on a 1, and his gear is perfectly fine and well balanced out with stats.

The RDD-Fighter can still damage me normally and can spam IKD as per usual, and you've got a normal fight.

It's called preparation.


On the other hand, you've stated you have 76 AC possible with Imp Expertise. Now, because of the game's mechanics at limiting AB at +20 from spells, I can't get my AB beyond 56 (even though I can get it to show 76, lol), thus requiring a 20 roll just to even hit you, and not crit. People using True Strike potions will probably hit the cap around 58 or 59 due to having a higher BAB oriented class, but still, having to waste a True Strike potion just for a 3/20 chance of hitting you and unlikely succeeding the critical threat roll also, is a bit steep.

(Personally I don't mind because I'll just happily hellball your face and spam earthquake until you die. But I've played Fighter-types and know how limited they are against stupidly high AC.)

_________________
Current characters:
Nazeris Defir
Malicar Drakespire

The usual argument that you will likely face is that Dev crit isnt all that good because its easy to near immunize yourself against it with judicious use of the mythal crafting system. While true, I personally think that dev crit urinates all over balance from a great height with regard to both PVM and PVP and the server would be far more balanceed with out it. Especially when you consider kukri or scimitar dev critters. Now if dev crit could only be taken for great weapons, id feel differently

I've played a shifter monk. All you really have going for you is AC in the early stages. Then again, the huge AC dragon can attain could probably use a lil drop.

Dont worry too much. Hopefully the powers that be wont let dragonshape become too weak both in the event of reduced monk AC and relative to the buffing up of all the other shapes as it still requires a 30 base wisdom. Hopefully, the dragonshape breath will be powered up to match its shapechange variant.

I thought the nerf idea was to have it not kick in unless 150+ damage is dealt? But it's a mute point since it apparently can't be changed.

As for Dragon Shape ... trust the dev team.

_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

I don't think, and didn't say that I thought, that dev crit should be nerfed. The point is that anything that can kill you in one hit with a fort save over 40 is pretty uber, and I almost never hear anyone complain about it, because hey, everyone -has- dev crit. Given that it definitely does mess with the balance on the server, it's one of the only legs up the melee types have over the casters, who have all the time-stopping, GS spamming nonsense that mages shouldn't have ever really gotten in the first place.

If we're worrying about nerfing shapes so that everything with at least a thirty AB is capable of hitting and damaging a dragon, I've kinda lost hope in the conversation.

I naturally have faith in the server staff, but considering the dragon shape as a prereq of 30 wisdom, it kinda upsets me that everyone is so tickled about the idea of dropping its ac a full 10-15 points. A few points to keep it below obnoxious levels, sure, but mid-fifties is downright silly. Why bother with the build if not for a respectable AC to compensate for your liklihood of being dev'd? Completely shatters the worth of the build, and anyone who says they didn't do the build for the much nicer ac is lying through their teeth. There are -other- perks, but none that couldn't have been gotten through multiclassing a different way, aside maybe from skill progression. The AB is mediocre, the saves are balanced at around 30, the spell resistance will save you against lowbie casters, the breath (even if improved) is only going to help against melee types that we assume won't be covered head to toe in every elemental damage resistance effect known to man (and they will be) Beyond that, you're liable to get killed before you get an effective dragon breath off, particularly with a fifty AC and a 32 fortitude.

I feel pretty balanced at this point. Like I said, I lose about as often as I win, and that's with a 76 AC. I know of rogues with epic dodge whose AC hit 69-71, making their effective AC in a one-on-on PvP a 74-76, not to mention gloriously spammable HiPS.

My rapier wielding dev critter would make a sticky mess out of my dragon shifter in short order.

The biggest point I'm trying to make is when do we stop trying to tinker and improve and balance things that aren't -that- unbalanced, all things considered, and simply lie back and enjoy the game and some lively RP? Eventually you're left with the charred husk of what used to be a fun game for people, everyone spouting off identical builds with dev crit, greater sanctuary, and HiPS.

I agree wholeheartedly that an AC in the 80's is a little extreme, but I maintain than an AC in the mid-70's doesn't make one anything near unbeatable... Obviously, or I simply wouldn't lose fights, ever. Fortunately, again, there are the true strikes to keep monk shifters in line.

Make the useless shifts semi-useful, (seriously, kobold, mindflayer, dragon. Everything else, put simply, sucks.) but don't turn about and completely squish a powerbuild just for the sake of squishing a powerbuild. Where does it end? By the time you pull such a heavy-handed balancing, it leaves something else unbalanced, and you have to go methodically fixing that.

Every build ends up identical, and before you know it, everyone who played shifters before ends up snagging undead shape, taking Cory's lead and slamming elemental shield pots while everyone dies, 2d6 damage at a time.

I just don't see where people get off complaining when their inventory is loaded up with fifty true strike potions at any given moment. >.< "The dragon monk is hard to kill!"

That's the point. It's a dragon. Not designed to be an easy kill. Rob me of my AC and I'm lizard fodder. *shrug* Still an enjoyable RP character, but next to worthless in a fight. It makes no sense to me that being a monk, he would just unlearn how to fight unarmed effectively after shapechanging.

We're all just a little overzealous, me thinks.

Actually, you said no one wants to nerf it. People do want to nerf it, but it cannot physically be nerfed without a hak.

And if you haven't heard about people complaining about it, try using the search function - simply because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

That said, they said they are making all the shapes better, so that way one doesn't need monk to be half-decent. Again, trust the dev team.

_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

The reason for this change wasn't that Monk/Shifters are too uber as is.

It's for another, very simple reason: both players and DMs wanted to improve the underwhelming Shifter forms. As you surely know, a Shifter without Monk levels is about as effective as a Bard/Harper Scout with no Charisma or Perform. Well, maybe not, but they are much weaker than other classses. Your build may be balanced now, but any Shifter without Monk isn't. That's not a good situation. It's a cool class, so we wanted to improve it to make it a viable choice.

Now, we couldn't improve the Shifter forms for Shifters without also doing it for Monk/Shifters. And obviously, this is out of the question, considering they're already rather powerful. Without changes, Shifters would remain weak while Monk/Shifters get by just fine. If we were to improve Shifter forms just like that, they would become viable but Monk/Shifters would become completely unbalanced.

So the options were few and the choice simple: Either do nothing, or nix the Monk AC from Shifters so that the forms could be otherwise improved. Make normal Shifters suffer by doing nothing, or make Monk/Shifters suffer by taking away their advantage. The latter was voted by the playerbase to be the preferred choice. Which is quite reasonable: no longer will Shifter/Monks gain a considerable advantage over Shifters, but they will be relatively equal as both get the same, improved forms. Not to mention, it doesn't make any sense that Monk/Shifters should be better at shifting than those who took maximum levels in the class.

_________________

Which reminds me, when will those changes be done?

_________________
"Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong."
"I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder."

hey dont bring me into this I dont want a nerf I suck as is.

on a side note if everyone does start picking my risenlord form can I buy a shapechange for the skills for the server(like you change what the skill looks like for all the shifters but mine would remain NWN basic look?)

_________________
================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

When they're done.



Sorry, you missed this argument, and ther poll was about 90% in favor of nuking monk AC, and *100% unanimous* in the DM forums.

Mid fifties AC, btw, is a tumbletank's maximum AC in full +5 gear after Mage Armor. It's not 'low'.

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Say what you want, low fifties AC for a target the size of a house and fortitude ten points lower than the average dev crit dc -is- low, especially if everyone has dev and TS pots. Makes a scimitar weapon master with a TS pot float around with a 65 or so ab, which is of course going to turn that dragon into a piece of unrecognizable goo.

I agree with the nerfing to a point, but I think that AC that low is just -too- low.

I think the main goal was to balance PVE, and seeing how only two monsters I can think of have had Dev crit its not a big problem.

_________________
================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Show me a Weapon Master with 65 AB within Amia's server, that is not a 100% Glass Cannon (IE, is actually a viable combatant), -WITH- Dev.

And I mean 65 actual, operational, working AB. Not 'Effective', and not 'What's on the character sheet'.

If you don't know what I mean, I shall condense this post to as follows;


Learn NWN Mechanics before disputing them.

_________________
Mostly Retired

65 AB -after- the dev crit, bossman.

Uh, sorry. 65 ab after the TS pot. >.> *looks like an idiot*

In exchange, you get more usable forms to fight with. Use a construct or some other form instead when fighting dev critters. I think the goal here is to make the shifter class use all of its forms, a form for every occasion.

Compared to now, the only viable shifter forms are risen, kobold commando, or dragon form.

And as of right now, the best melee build out there is the optimized dragon form. It doesn't really bother me but if the Amian staff proposes a way to make other shifter forms more usable and make it one of the most versatile class; in exchange of nerfing the druid/monk/cot & druid/shifter/monk builds? Hell yes.

Finally, you also keep bringing up True strike potions... 99% of the melee toons in the server still won't break 81 ac, TS potions or not. And why are you allowing your enemies drink TS potions anyways? Spam IKD. If you can't break his/her AC... well drink a TS potion yourself or draw.

I keep bringing up TS pots because nobody else is taking it into consideration, and I agree that an 81 AC is ridiculous, and does need a kick in the nads to bring it down. I'm just asking that you consider the relatively low fort save alongside the fact that TS pots are all over the server when you're thinking of the dragon shape.

More imporantly, I hate spamming IKD on people as much as I hate watching people spam HiPS on people. If that's what I gotta do, then fine, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

I -love- the idea of making the shifter class a little more versatile, but the dragon shape is the beat all, end all awesome shape because it has such a high prereq. It -should- be the most awesome shape, in the same way that hellball -should- be the most awesome offensive spell.

.. I feel like I'm running in circles, here.

Anyway, hey, I spoke up for once. Even if I didn't actually accomplish anything, thanks for the input, whether it was sarcastic and rude for the sake of being rude or an actually thought out explaination for my concerns.

If you're chugging potions left and righ,t btw, that's rounds you're not swinging and partial rounds where you're giving AoO and flatfooting yourself, as well as the fact that the dragomonk is likely faster and can simply run away from your True Stirked' ness. True Strike ain't all that for it.

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

You are completely aware that the +20 from True Strike is not stacking, right? And counts towards the same limit that Weapon Enhancement, other Spell Buffs, AB Enhancement, and the like all count towards? To a limit of 20?

Here's your absolute ideal situation, and this build is impossible without being a glass cannon (hell, I doubt it's possible period). RDD to get high strength, WM of course as well.

19 Pre-epic BAB + 5 Epic BAB + 20 Buffs/Items + 15 STR + 1 WM Bonus (you can't rationally get the epic WM without losing on the STR from lack of RDD) + 3 Feat bonus = 63.

And that's while being a tumbleless, likely Low HP (due to minmaxing), weak-arse no-defense Weapon Master.

_________________
Mostly Retired

What really makes you look silly is the fact you've got 3 or 6 levels in That Annoyingly Fast Class and still stand toe-to-toe with a guzzler. Run away for a few seconds. They'll run out of TS before you run out of legs.

You also look a little silly asserting that the martial arts training your character received (in the monastery that I have every confidence his RP history includes) had lessons for fighting when quadrupedal, winged, tailed, covered in scales and horns and 50 times heavier than he was at the time.

I do, ever so sincerely, apologize for having looked silly. I could type up a character biography for you, if you'd like to look it over?

*shrug* I don't disrespect you guys, afford me the same courtesy, if'n ya please.

No.

Get over yourself?

No, really; it's like a house rule. People who choose off-the-peg powerbuilds get their uberness, and the rest of us get to point and giggle.

And I for one would love to see this character biography wherein the monk who has trained diligently to hone his natural body into the perfect weapon can use those exact skills when he is being nothing at all what he is trained at.

I would liken that to a Weaponmaster who has trained all his life with a halberd, but one day just picks up a mace and is just as good with it.

_________________
I have a large seashell collection which I keep scattered on the beaches all over the world. Maybe you've seen it.

*shrug* Doesn't mean you have to get rude with me on the forums.
Giggle away, bossman, because I just get to point and giggle at your attitude.
I'll leave the thread alone now. Thanks for the input.

in D&D wizards/sorc can be shifters, so when can I get my wizard/palemaster/shifter on amia?

_________________
================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

50 AC is complete sh*t. Semi-dangerous for PVM, death in PVP. 55 is borderline in both, 60 (what I have) is decent for both.

If the Dragons get punted to 50 AC, lets see that 40/+6 come back.
Honestly.

What the .. Yeah. And to voice ghost here, the pre-req is rediculous

55 is acceptable in PVM, but in PVP, with the amount of overly eager evil characters (You know who you are, in wiltun) that will kill someone that blinks at them the wrong way, is a death sentance.

Because a good WM or cleric would have to roll a 1 to not hit you.

I dunno.


I entirely agree with the anti TS potion tactic though. Run the HELL away.

---------
Everyone, myself, and a lot of the staff have got to work on being rude in forum.

What kind of example are we setting for the influx of new characters?

Seriously. Bad ghostie, bad uce! Bad! No cookies.

I wont be checking this, to see how badly I get flamed. >_>

_________________
Kaylee Diam, Cordorian Spellsword
Schala Wintermoon, Ravenloft escapee, Priestess of Akadi
Constance Silverhand- Quirky elven monk.
[img]http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1263/kayleessigcopyeg9.jpg[/img]

... Was told I should look at this. Alright, you're right. Sorry for having gotten rude.
Thankfully, someone actually backed me. Woot. I can die happy.

I wasn't ever pro-80 ac builds. 60 sounds way more fair, and for everyone. Not too uber, not terribly sissified.

... Can I have my cookie, now?

Curious.. is your numbers right? Is the rogue on improved expertise? I think only monk/PM or Divine shield monk can reach those high ACs.

I'm pretty sure they're wrong.

A fully-epic-kitted out epic-dex fighter
10 AC
16 Tumble (6)
31 Dex (15)
33 Armor Skin (2)
38 Armor Enhancement (5)
41 Tower Shield (3)
46 Shield Enhancement (5)
51 Natural (5)
56 Dodge (5)
61 Deflection (5)
62 Mage Armor (1 from dodge bonus)
66 Haste (4)
67 Ioun Stone: Dusty Rose (1)

Alot of Ghostie_1's "Numbers" can be described as 'Inaccurate Guesses'.

_________________
Mostly Retired

I landed on 80 with all the +5 gear, Haste, Mage Armour, Epic dodge included and Improved expertise.

No PM, no monk, no Divine shield.

_________________

UCE THIS, YOU COW.

Math plz.

_________________
Mostly Retired

Bard song included?

_________________

And it's possible to reach nearly 100ac builds.

True balance just isnt going to happen, lets just try to not screw the shifters to bad. Revert the DShape back to origional (DR etc etc) and knock monk AC, and it'll be fine.


I'll go back to not looking at this,
and yes,
you haz kewkie now, Ghostie.

_________________
Kaylee Diam, Cordorian Spellsword
Schala Wintermoon, Ravenloft escapee, Priestess of Akadi
Constance Silverhand- Quirky elven monk.
[img]http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1263/kayleessigcopyeg9.jpg[/img]

77 Improved Expertise
82 Epic dodge
83 Dodge feat
85 (44 ending DEX)
92 Bardsong

Epic Dodge doesn't give you AC, and you're not going to hit anything with Improved Expertise, so it's pretty moot.

_________________

Well...in a way, because the first attack always misses, a 50, 45, 40, 35ab becomes effectively 45, 40, 35 so it could be considered a +5 AC bonus against whoever your current adversary is?

lol Blackdragon12121 post what I was going to.

_________________
================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

It's much better than that, really. But you can't count that as AC without counting other circumstancial things as well. Flanking? Invisibility bonus? Possible Curse Song?

Seems pretty pointless. If we're discussing average build AC, we're talking about what you can see on the sheet. Might as well say that you have infinite AC from staying in a No-PvP zone.

_________________

... "Inaccurate guesses?"
'kay.

There's a handful of monsters that can have +6 or better AB on their weaponry, otherwise the default DS soak is pretty much godmode for Amia's PvM. In effect it's even better than a DwD18 EDRIII who's spent 50DC on extra-tough DR items, only you get a Druid28-30's pets in with the deal.

I'll have to get my skates on and level up that scalybutt-aiming Druid of mine so I have a proper feel for it. So far I've only ever been on the opposing side, and only able to touch Dragonmonks by flatfooting them or drawing them over trapnests, neither of which tricks can be pulled on a pro.

92 Bardsong (7)?

Wow. Didn't know level 30 Bards got Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll to qualify for Epic Dodge!

AWESOME.


Additionally; 44 Ending Dex, so 32 pre-buff. Unless you're a Fey, that requires... Five epic Dex feats. Okay (20 starting + 7 levelups + 5 levelups)

I'm certain both Ruce and I could pull apart how useless your character probably is if you invested five Epic Feats into Great Dex. Add in Epic Dodge and that's six feats in Epic. Try fit Armor Skin as well. While also being anything other than a weak dude.


Epic Dodge (5)

Don't add that to a mathematical listing, due to the amount of ways it is surpassed and the fact that, against many opponents, it's not actually 5 AC and instead exactly what it describes; negation of a single attack. Dualwielders, Clerics, Hasted individuals, Monks, Archers, and other combinations will result in this +5 being rendered a different number.


Improved Expertise (10)

Perhaps the only valid comment, however, if you want to say "You need X AC to survive", then it's incorrect. A person who hits you once every blue moon by getting two 20's in a round is going to be the victor if the other person also only hits once in a blue moon, but does your standard Dexer's damage.


Dodge Feat (1)

Point, to an extent, however considering people are playing the powerbuild angle.. How many viable combatant builds are there which have room for this pre-epic feat in favour of, well, the other feats you actually need?

Edit; Forgot to write. Dodge feat works on the last person who attacked you in a given round. If you HiPS spam, that round has ended, and therefore you lose that +1 AC against them.


You can quote general improbabilities by focusing on the Good parts of a build for the purposes of comparing it, sure, however you must also take into account the negatives.

If you can make a build with this supposed 85 AC -without- making it so severely gimped that it surves no purpose other than Ruce's own 'Joke' or 'Gimmick' builds - that being, proof that you can hit a certain number - then I'll admit that you have a point.

_________________
Mostly Retired

Sorry, no.

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

*searches memory for the list of amias invincible builds ...* But probably those were strange calculations as well.

_________________
Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"

True. But the point was if it's possible to reach an AC like that. I don't honestly think that a build with 80 AC could ever be an enjoyable character to play.

Now: 10 base + 5 natural + 5 dodge + 5 deflection + 5 armour + 8 lamecheese towershield + 15 from Dex + 10 from Improved expertise + 4 from Haste + 1 from Dodge when fighting toe-to-toe + 6 from Tumble + 2 from Armour Skin + 1 from being a wee little bastard = 77, 82 if we count Epic Dodge in, as it can be imaginated as +5 AC bonus, although it's a bit better than just that.

It's not rocket science.

_________________

UCE THIS, YOU COW.

There are tonnes of Gimmick builds, such as 100 'Effective' AC (in the absolute best of situations only), or the 100 AB build, etc.

However;

No one can ever claim that a build with the following stats is 'Good'.

100 AC
60HP
15Fort
10Reflex
15Will
25AB

Sure, it's got 100AC. Doesn't make it valid, and it's a primary flaw that many 'powerbuilders' fail to understand, and additionally, one that many people who advocate ideas For or Against the norm don't understand. That being you cannot judge or manipulate a variable based upon the radical extremes/outliers. There's reasons these are outliers and never actually seen in game; and that's because they're not valid or viable to create or utilize.

_________________
Mostly Retired

The purpose of saying you have 77 AC is so you can claim that something is over or underpowered in reference to something else.

However, that doesn't take the rest of the build into account. You can't, for example, have Full AB and Imp Expertise on at the same time - since you're getting a +10 to one and a -10 to the other. That -10 makes it no longer viable, because you're now akin to a microscopic kitten - a pain in the arse to hit, but the worst it's going to do to you is hiss at you and bat at you harmlessly with its paws.

_________________
Mostly Retired