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davis114
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 Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 5:03 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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Okay...so this is really cheesing me off. I've rp'ed with several different folks over the past few days, and seen some bluffing going on...without bluffing. Most likely because their character doesn't have any bluff, and they'd rather not disclose that.
If your toon has no points in bluff...you can't bluff.
Am I wrong? Is this alright to do, despite the fact that some of us actually worked to make a character able to lie? Is this just something we all assume we can do?
*yanks hair out and goes for a beer*
_________________  MoshingChris wrote: Dude makes like a drunk even when he's sober.
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Neus Scario
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 5:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Location: Kentucky
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If a character makes a decent bluff, then they can bluff. If they make a persuasive argument, then they're persuasive. Conversely, just because a character has 500 ranks in Bluff doesn't mean I'll believe them if they say the sky is green. And even if a character with 500 ranks in Persuade says that beating myself on the head with a frying pan will make my Johnny bigger, it doesn't mean I'll agree with them.
_________________
Characters:
Yurioji Azzara
Seto
PM me if you need something with them.
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Dwagin
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 5:26 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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Perhaps a DM can correct me if I mis-speak, but I was under the distinct impression that Bluff/persuade work on NPC's only.
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 5:32 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Social skills are not compulsory unless it is scripted against an NPC (e.g. caravan drivers at Nes'ek - you want to bluff them, you have to roll bluff), or demanded by a DM.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Gunz
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 5:34 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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Players aren't required to roll anything for a social skill. You can use it for flavor, but that's about it. You can't force them.
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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Uberuce
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 6:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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Me, ages ago wrote: "What's in that black box?"
"It's something incredibly persuasive. You remember that plan we talked about that you were unsure about? Well, because of the thing in this box you think it's a great idea."
"Urmm...okay. What is it?"
"I don't know. But it's amazing, trust me. It's totally changed your mind."
"How can it have changed my mind when I don't even know what it is? Even *you* don't know what it is!"
"Ahh...but look! It's got 54 written on the side of it."
"Fifty-four? What does that mean? It's got a nightclub from the early eighties in it?"
"No, silly! It's fiftyfours worth of persuasive."
"I think you were doing better with the nightclub."
"Anyway, you're convinced now, so let's go."
"I already told you: I don't have the right armour to go there yet. I'd be zapped by the paralysis spells in two minutes, I'm not going till I can afford the Freedom cloak. After I've got it we'll be fine."
"Hrmm....I'd believe you except you haven't got a box."
"What?"
"You need to show me your black box or else I don't believe you and then we have to go."
"You don't believe I'd die from paralysis?"
"Well, of course you will, it's utterly lethal! Even a child knows that....but I need to see your black box before I believe it"
"Fine, fine
..."*cobbles together a black box with a 37 on the side*
"Right, your box proved it, you'll survive, so saddle up and let's go!"
"No."
"You're a bad roleplayer." No sane DM would ever try to enforce an upper limit on social skills because everything a character says outside of chatting about the weather is in some way persuasive, intimidating, annoying or dishonest.
In fact, even talking about the weather is persuasive.
"Rained in Kohlingen yesterday again."
"Really? It was dry in Cordor."
"Lucky you. I got soaked."
"//Roll persuade."
"//Eh? I'm just making small talk. And of course it rained in Kohl. The weather cycle's the biggest running joke in Amia"
"//Don't care, you need to roll."
-1 + 18 = 17.
"I don't think you did. I think it was bone dry all day. You must have imagined it."
"Are you feeling alright? You sound like you need a trip to the Salandrans."
"//Roll Taunt."
"//WTF? Why?"
"//Because that was quite insulting."
-1 + 12 = 13
"//Happy now?"
"//No. There's no way you could say something as annoying as that on only -1 Taunt. Retcon it and try again."
"//I tell you what, I'll just leave."
"Well, I shall leave you to your suspicions of my ability to tell when rain is falling on my head. I am off to see what riches the Khem desert holds for me."
"//Roll Persuade"
"//No."
"No you aren't, I'm sure you're going to stay right here."
*other guy leaves*
"You're still here you know."
""
"So, tell me about this drought in Kohlingen."
""
"//You're a bad roleplayer"
"//"
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 6:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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davis114 wrote: Okay...so this is really cheesing me off. I've rp'ed with several different folks over the past few days, and seen some bluffing going on...without bluffing. Most likely because their character doesn't have any bluff, and they'd rather not disclose that.
If your toon has no points in bluff...you can't bluff.
Am I wrong? Is this alright to do, despite the fact that some of us actually worked to make a character able to lie? Is this just something we all assume we can do?
*yanks hair out and goes for a beer*
1. Ranks in skills represent superheroic ability, not "Basic Ability".
2. Social skills were never meant to be used against PCs. Why not let RP dictate whether or not you believe them, instead of a floating number?
Asking for a roll, well, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't at that point. The encounter is, for any purposes, finished. If you decline the roll, there is the possibility of the player metagaming that as you 'not having Bluff' and so disregard what your character says and likely colors future interactions, among other things. If you roll and roll well, the RP hasn't decided the flow, an floating number has dictated how someone acts in a social situation (Far different than a combat situation, mind you, which IS designed to work PC to PC if necessary.) If you roll and roll badly, it doesn't matter what your roleplay is, again, that number his dictated the flow of RP, not two characters interacting. OOC mechanic strikes again. If you roll just to appease them and avoid the above arguement... well, it doesn't matter if your character is telling the truth or not at that point. See the above mentions.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 7:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Yurell wrote: Social skills are not compulsory unless it is scripted against an NPC (e.g. caravan drivers at Nes'ek - you want to bluff them, you have to roll bluff), or demanded by a DM.
This.
You do not need to have ranks in Bluff to tell a lie, nor do you need ranks in Perform to be a capable (even good) actor, nor do you need to be a Rank 3 Painter to be a talented artist on canvas.
Mechanics associated with these 'RP Skills' are indeed fluff and 'shininess' only, and are not a prerequisite or requirement for roleplaying the possession of these skills.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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HellScourge
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 8:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1
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Not to forget that there is a limit to how far you can develop yourself regarding the skills.
I mean, hey you can get better anytime until you hit the limit of 30.  _________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder." TeroSNS wrote: Hello Everyone [...] I like tentacles [...] 
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Signe Johanne
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 10:41 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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If your PC has a Cha, Int and/or Wis with negative modifiers, I'd love to see rp of a person who is bad at lying, making obvious signs of failing at it if he tries. But of course, this is entirely up to each and every player. I think it is neat to drop hints of lying, so that the PC who is being told a lie, has something to ponder. Rolls are a tad 'meh' for me when it comes to these things.
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 10:56 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Signe Johanne wrote: If your PC has a Cha, Int and/or Wis with negative modifiers, I'd love to see rp of a person who is bad at lying, making obvious signs of failing at it if he tries. But of course, this is entirely up to each and every player. I think it is neat to drop hints of lying, so that the PC who is being told a lie, has something to ponder. Rolls are a tad 'meh' for me when it comes to these things. Should see Amenia try to lie Her ears turn a bright red, and if she tries to continue too long she literally glows (Aasimar racial ability - light  )
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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AlphaWaves
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 12:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
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I think this is difficult.
Saying that bluff skills etc. are only to be used in situations with DMs and PC irks me.
I think we need more reason to choose to take "soft" skills or "RP" skills like bluff etc. but not necessarily to "beat the system". What I mean is, we need reasons to add ranks but not just to get NPC X to be able to give reward Y.
DM overviewed events are another case. We can all play the game together. We don't need DMs there all the time to roll play our skills, and let the skills role play our results, and RP accordingly. A failure in a social situation can be more rewarding than getting what you want all the time due to pleasing word play. Especially if such eloquence was constantly produced by a character with below average charisma and would, on paper, look like someone with terrible social skills.
_________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
~ A hin proverb
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 13:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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SephiraAndy wrote: I think this is difficult.
Saying that bluff skills etc. are only to be used in situations with DMs and PC irks me.
I think we need more reason to choose to take "soft" skills or "RP" skills like bluff etc. but not necessarily to "beat the system". What I mean is, we need reasons to add ranks but not just to get NPC X to be able to give reward Y.
DM overviewed events are another case. We can all play the game together. We don't need DMs there all the time to roll play our skills, and let the skills role play our results, and RP accordingly. A failure in a social situation can be more rewarding than getting what you want all the time due to pleasing word play. Especially if such eloquence was constantly produced by a character with below average charisma and would, on paper, look like someone with terrible social skills.
I disagree. Why should you get to use a social skill when the appropriate counter-skill is not included in the game? Especially one in the PHB that states it only affects NPCs.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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AlphaWaves
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 13:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
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Yurell wrote: I disagree. Why should you get to use a social skill when the appropriate counter-skill is not included in the game? Especially one in the PHB that states it only affects NPCs.
There are standard counters, in PnP rules. Not necessarily in the rest menu.
Here's an example.
Jonny wants Tim to pick up a heavy box for him.
Tim refuses.
Jonny gets angry and tries to blly him into it with various emotes that would be associated with intimidation techniques... so thus would roll "Intimidate".
Counter intimidate on amia is all wrong.
Tim would roll a save against fear, usually a standard willl save.
Tim passes and acts out his eager defiance.
This is all done through role play through text and emotes.. just two rolls were made, and how players adapt their role play according to these result shows their talants as players. _________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
~ A hin proverb
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 13:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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I've been wondering about this as well. With all the uber mon maxed builds I find it apalling how many people have most likely 6-8 cha and still think they can bluff through anything.
Well maybe this wont work at all, but the point being CALM DOWM YOU DONT HAVE TO BE GOD didnt Drizzt even screw up 1 time?
So of course people wont roll. An obvious intimidate was in teh Cordor Square yesterday and the person refused to roll, walked away 'like he was above it all'
My favorite character to RP is Karvo, because he is so ridiculously flawed. Understands nothing, he still think taht when travelling with one of his friends being called "fodder" is an honor. And with low intel and a hobgolbins pallet, the accent gets compliments quite often. Its actually fun to play him, and he is not a powerbuild, has about 3 waisted feats and no skill points that work. But he at least has high STR so can help out in combat
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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AlphaWaves
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 13:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
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GreatPigeon wrote: My favorite character to RP is Karvo, because he is so ridiculously flawed. Understands nothing, he still think taht when travelling with one of his friends being called "fodder" is an honor. And with low intel and a hobgolbins pallet, the accent gets compliments quite often. Its actually fun to play him, and he is not a powerbuild, has about 3 waisted feats and no skill points that work. But he at least has high STR so can help out in combat
Karvo sounds like he would have been fantastic in my League of Extraordinary Adventurers I was trying to put together a year ago. _________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
~ A hin proverb
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Yossarin
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 13:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Signe Johanne wrote: If your PC has a Cha, Int and/or Wis with negative modifiers, I'd love to see rp of a person who is bad at lying, making obvious signs of failing at it if he tries. But of course, this is entirely up to each and every player. I think it is neat to drop hints of lying, so that the PC who is being told a lie, has something to ponder. Rolls are a tad 'meh' for me when it comes to these things. That's called a tell. I've seen plenty of players deliver a theatrical tell when they're lying, so I don't worry much about people who might otherwise be bad liars hoodwinking folks.
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 13:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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Meet me in game whenever you like, im in the mood to play a fun character vs the stoic bad___ Type.
He is a chicken farmer and has some sheep.
Of course eh cant pronounce this and calls them Chiggiums. beleives wahtever he is told no matter what. and His sheep, are called s'eeps as the sh sound is a loss on somebody with snaggle tooth maw.
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 13:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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SephiraAndy wrote: Yurell wrote: I disagree. Why should you get to use a social skill when the appropriate counter-skill is not included in the game? Especially one in the PHB that states it only affects NPCs. There are standard counters, in PnP rules. Not necessarily in the rest menu. Here's an example. Jonny wants Tim to pick up a heavy box for him. Tim refuses. Jonny gets angry and tries to blly him into it with various emotes that would be associated with intimidation techniques... so thus would roll "Intimidate". Counter intimidate on amia is all wrong. Tim would roll a save against fear, usually a standard willl save. Ummm, isn't the Ama one d20 + level + Wis bonus + Modifier against fear? If so, then it is totally correct: See page 76 of the PHB 3.5
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Galenson
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 14:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
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Some characters are so stoic, monotone and grumpy they can pull off a bluff simply coz there's no way to distinguish between them telling the truth and lying.
_________________
Plays:
"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."
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Yossarin
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 14:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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And other characters genuinely believe a lie is the truth, and aren't bluffing when they lie to you!
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Herr Delta Houdini
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 14:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Location: England
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Dwagin wrote: Perhaps a DM can correct me if I mis-speak, but I was under the distinct impression that Bluff/persuade work on NPC's only. Me too, I heard all social rolls are this way, like Yurell said. Yurell wrote: Social skills are not compulsory unless it is scripted against an NPC (e.g. caravan drivers at Nes'ek - you want to bluff them, you have to roll bluff), or demanded by a DM. IMO, just take it how ever you think your character would, the person may seem to be speaking honestly, doesn't mean you have to believe what they say. Not to mention constant rolls can be quite annoying when you are trying to read IC messages from other people. SephiraAndy wrote: I think we need more reason to choose to take "soft" skills or "RP" skills like bluff etc. but not necessarily to "beat the system". What I mean is, we need reasons to add ranks but not just to get NPC X to be able to give reward Y.
I guess you could take ranks in Bluff/Persuade to back your RP more, but I like not having to use them myself.
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AlphaWaves
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 14:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
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Yurell wrote: Ummm, isn't the Ama one d20 + level + Wis bonus + Modifier against fear? If so, then it is totally correct: See page 76 of the PHB 3.5
I was going by 3.0 rules.. which is a roll against fear. _________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
~ A hin proverb
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 14:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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SephiraAndy wrote: Yurell wrote: Ummm, isn't the Ama one d20 + level + Wis bonus + Modifier against fear? If so, then it is totally correct: See page 76 of the PHB 3.5 I was going by 3.0 rules.. which is a roll against fear. Incorrect.
Players Handbook 3.0E (Page 70)
INTIMIDATE (Cha)
Use this skill to get a bully to back down or to make a prisoner give you the information you want. Intimidation includes verbal threats and body language.
Check: You can change others' behaviour with a successful check. The DC is typically 10 + the target's Hit Dice. Any bonuses that a target may have on saving throws against fear increase the DC.
Retry: Generally, retries do not work. Even if the initial check succeeds, the other character can only be intimidated so far, and a retry doesn't help. If the initial check fails, the character has probably become more firmly resolved to ressit the intimidator, and a retry is futile.
Special: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 synergy bonus on Intimidate checks.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 14:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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SephiraAndy wrote: Yurell wrote: Ummm, isn't the Ama one d20 + level + Wis bonus + Modifier against fear? If so, then it is totally correct: See page 76 of the PHB 3.5 I was going by 3.0 rules.. which is a roll against fear. Just because you were going by different rules doesn't mean that Amia is wrong. Yossarin wrote: And other characters genuinely believe a lie is the truth, and aren't bluffing when they lie to you!
My characters usually avoid bluffing but not speaking a word that is not true. Of course, the way they structure their sentences implies something 
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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AlphaWaves
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 14:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
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@Yurell
i was wrong anyway.
Besides, I wasn't saying amia is wrong to choose 3.5 over 3.0 .. I just assumed 3.0 is the same as 3.5 on intimidate rules
(EDIT: In any case.. Just replace the fear check with the amian counter roll in my example. Changes nothing)
Yurell wrote: My characters usually avoid bluffing but not speaking a word that is not true. Of course, the way they structure their sentences implies something :twisted:
that's exactly how I play my low-bluff character. Not lies, but spin. _________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
~ A hin proverb
Last edited by AlphaWaves on Sat, May 30 2009, 15:07 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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HellScourge
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 14:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1
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Yurell wrote: Signe Johanne wrote: If your PC has a Cha, Int and/or Wis with negative modifiers, I'd love to see rp of a person who is bad at lying, making obvious signs of failing at it if he tries. But of course, this is entirely up to each and every player. I think it is neat to drop hints of lying, so that the PC who is being told a lie, has something to ponder. Rolls are a tad 'meh' for me when it comes to these things. Should see Amenia try to lie Her ears turn a bright red, and if she tries to continue too long she literally glows (Aasimar racial ability - light ) Or look at Niya lie. She can't blush, black dyed skin, natural color, red.
Her eyes are black too, hard to read anything there, but when she is telling a lie its so outragous that you can hardly believe it, most of the time I don't even believe the stuff I mkae up myself.
Niya: I once saw Sharess' panties, they are bright red.
Random mage: No, they aren't.. they are black.
Niya: What do you know?
RM rolls 127 lore
RM: I am quite sure they are black.
Niya: Eehh... Pff, whatever. _________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder." TeroSNS wrote: Hello Everyone [...] I like tentacles [...]
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davis114
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 17:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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I'm not talking about little small talk situations, or even bigger confrontations. All I'm saying is, what's the point in taking certain skills if they simply won't be used on a particular server? Our contact with NPC's on this server is extremely outweighed buy our contact with PC's.
Here's my point. Big scary drow comes up to you, throws fit, and says "run from me, I iz big scary drow person, rawr," Without having a lick of intimidate to back it up. Are we to believe someone is intimidating simply because they say they are? They WOULD be intimidating, based on their actions, but there are people that are -naturally- more intimidating, simply by their presence. I know a certain hin leader that is quite possibly the scariest bloody thing I've ever seen.
IMO, there are times, and places, for our social skills to be used. I'm not talking about convincing someone the sky is green, or making people run from you as soon as they see you. I'm talking about lying SO smoothly, you can make someone look at something behind them, then bail outta there faster than they can turn around!
I'm talking about being SO intimidating, someone would naturally think twice before wanting to attack you. Or SO persuasive, you can at least try to change someone's mind about your character's alignment or some such.
Since it's widely agreed that pvp isn't this server's favorite past-time, WHY would you choose to ignore the social aspects of our skills?
Cause I'm not talking about using them to be the end all of a confrontation. That, in itself, would be bad rp as well. I'm talking about using them to shift things, to make rp more fun.
"There's something behind you."
"Don't pull that crap on me."
*grows worried, and pulls off looking legitimately afraid, because of his enormous bluffin skills, and continues looking*
"...Well what is it.." *Takes a peek*
*Bails!*
I've seen that done! I've convinced four people there was an army upstairs so that they wouldn't interfere with us taking their party member! That kinda stuff is just hilarious, and it adds to our rp. I'm not saying there should be some sort of compulsory reaction for a character, I'm just saying, don't completely overlook it. It can be useful, and downright fun, for both parties.
I guess, in the end, I'm not even talking about counter rolling to beat the rolls. I simply mean, if you realize someone has so much of a certain skill, wrap it into your rp.
Besides, i realize that everyone can lie, but only certain people should be able to tell a completely and utterly bold faced lie WELL. If you don't have any bluff at all, your character would more than likely, in some way, show this, unless he or she, perhaps, has discipline out the wazoo and can control their facial features and voice.
_________________ MoshingChris wrote: Dude makes like a drunk even when he's sober.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 17:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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If they have any function between PCs, it's based on voluntarity and peer pressure. Of two otherwise identical PCs, I will appreciate better the one who has the social skills that reflect the character more accurately. If I know you have taken ranks in Bluff or Intimidate, and you also RP it pretty well, I will probably let your PC affect mine easier than usual. I don't want rolls, but if I have to choose between two stories that are relatively equal in credibility, I'm more likely to choose the one told by the PC with ranks in Bluff.
The "point" of having social skill ranks is the same as the point of the entire game: to enjoy. And for me, it is enjoyable to have some ranks in skills my character is supposedly accomplished in. Some things give me more enjoyment than others, and so I will opt for Epic Discipline over Epic Reputation, but it's still pretty cool to have those 10 ranks in Bluff and Persuade, even if it's just for show.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Herr Delta Houdini
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 18:50 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Location: England
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Yurell wrote: My characters usually avoid bluffing but not speaking a word that is not true.
Me too, i prefer to leave hints in emotes of how they're possibly lying. People tend to react to Bluff asif they just know you are lying, without counter rolls.
When people ask me to roll a Bluff, I usually say "Jst take it however you want, it's your choice to RP whether your character believes it or not", or something along those lines.
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DarkAngelGirl
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 20:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
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Uberuce wrote: Me, ages ago wrote: "What's in that black box?"
"It's something incredibly persuasive. You remember that plan we talked about that you were unsure about? Well, because of the thing in this box you think it's a great idea."
"Urmm...okay. What is it?"
"I don't know. But it's amazing, trust me. It's totally changed your mind."
"How can it have changed my mind when I don't even know what it is? Even *you* don't know what it is!"
"Ahh...but look! It's got 54 written on the side of it."
"Fifty-four? What does that mean? It's got a nightclub from the early eighties in it?"
"No, silly! It's fiftyfours worth of persuasive."
"I think you were doing better with the nightclub."
"Anyway, you're convinced now, so let's go."
"I already told you: I don't have the right armour to go there yet. I'd be zapped by the paralysis spells in two minutes, I'm not going till I can afford the Freedom cloak. After I've got it we'll be fine."
"Hrmm....I'd believe you except you haven't got a box."
"What?"
"You need to show me your black box or else I don't believe you and then we have to go."
"You don't believe I'd die from paralysis?"
"Well, of course you will, it's utterly lethal! Even a child knows that....but I need to see your black box before I believe it"
"Fine, fine
..."*cobbles together a black box with a 37 on the side*
"Right, your box proved it, you'll survive, so saddle up and let's go!"
"No."
"You're a bad roleplayer." No sane DM would ever try to enforce an upper limit on social skills because everything a character says outside of chatting about the weather is in some way persuasive, intimidating, annoying or dishonest. In fact, even talking about the weather is persuasive. "Rained in Kohlingen yesterday again." "Really? It was dry in Cordor." "Lucky you. I got soaked." "//Roll persuade." "//Eh? I'm just making small talk. And of course it rained in Kohl. The weather cycle's the biggest running joke in Amia" "//Don't care, you need to roll."
-1 + 18 = 17."I don't think you did. I think it was bone dry all day. You must have imagined it." "Are you feeling alright? You sound like you need a trip to the Salandrans." "//Roll Taunt." "//WTF? Why?" "//Because that was quite insulting." -1 + 12 = 13"//Happy now?" "//No. There's no way you could say something as annoying as that on only -1 Taunt. Retcon it and try again." "//I tell you what, I'll just leave." "Well, I shall leave you to your suspicions of my ability to tell when rain is falling on my head. I am off to see what riches the Khem desert holds for me." "//Roll Persuade" "//No." "No you aren't, I'm sure you're going to stay right here." *other guy leaves* "You're still here you know." "" "So, tell me about this drought in Kohlingen." "" "//You're a bad roleplayer" "//" *giggle*
_________________
Active Chars:
Pylithien "Pie" Eriamyn: War Knight
Roxy: The Shiny One
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Lascivar
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 20:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Location: Queensland, Australia.
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@Ruce's dialogue post:
No idea why that made me laugh so much, but thanks. Made my morning coffee worthwhile whilst reading the forums.
_________________
Current characters:
Nazeris Defir
Malicar Drakespire
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, May 30 2009, 22:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Yossarin wrote: And other characters genuinely believe a lie is the truth, and aren't bluffing when they lie to you!
Ohh, this is my favorite kind of lie. The delusional reality encompassing lie.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Sun, May 31 2009, 7:11 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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How about the Im so stupid someone told me this si true lie? The person honeslty beleives it but there is no way its true.
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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Yurell
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Posted: Sun, May 31 2009, 7:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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GreatPigeon wrote: How about the Im so stupid someone told me this si true lie? The person honeslty beleives it but there is no way its true. That is what Yoss was saying in: Yossarin wrote: And other characters genuinely believe a lie is the truth, and aren't bluffing when they lie to you!
If I understood you correctly, that is.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Sun, May 31 2009, 8:28 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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davis114 wrote: I'm not talking about little small talk situations, or even bigger confrontations. All I'm saying is, what's the point in taking certain skills if they simply won't be used on a particular server? Our contact with NPC's on this server is extremely outweighed buy our contact with PC's. There is no point. Those skills were never meant to be used against PC's. You want to bluff the NPCS? Build your bluff skill. davis114 wrote: Here's my point. Big scary drow comes up to you, throws fit, and says "run from me, I iz big scary drow person, rawr," Without having a lick of intimidate to back it up. Are we to believe someone is intimidating simply because they say they are? They WOULD be intimidating, based on their actions, but there are people that are -naturally- more intimidating, simply by their presence. I know a certain hin leader that is quite possibly the scariest bloody thing I've ever seen. But that's you, and how you look at things isn't necessarily how everyone does. davis114 wrote: IMO, there are times, and places, for our social skills to be used. I'm not talking about convincing someone the sky is green, or making people run from you as soon as they see you. I'm talking about lying SO smoothly, you can make someone look at something behind them, then bail outta there faster than they can turn around! In a perfect world were everyone played to have fun, and didn't care about WINNING EVERY POSSIBLE WAY.. this would be possible. In Amia? Not possible. As soon as you roll a BLUFF roll, you'll be metagamed. It's not on purpose, but it will happen. That's just a fact, sorry. davis114 wrote: I'm talking about being SO intimidating, someone would naturally think twice before wanting to attack you. Or SO persuasive, you can at least try to change someone's mind about your character's alignment or some such. Honestly, if your character can't do that without having a 102 INTIMIDATE skill, I'm not going to be scared of him / her in teh first place. *shrugs* davis114 wrote: Since it's widely agreed that pvp isn't this server's favorite past-time, WHY would you choose to ignore the social aspects of our skills? Because =you= determine how sociable your character is? Not skills designed for NPCS? davis114 wrote: Cause I'm not talking about using them to be the end all of a confrontation. That, in itself, would be bad rp as well. I'm talking about using them to shift things, to make rp more fun.
"There's something behind you."
"Don't pull that crap on me."
*grows worried, and pulls off looking legitimately afraid, because of his enormous bluffin skills, and continues looking*
"...Well what is it.." *Takes a peek*
*Bails!*
I've seen that done! I've convinced four people there was an army upstairs so that they wouldn't interfere with us taking their party member! That kinda stuff is just hilarious, and it adds to our rp. I'm not saying there should be some sort of compulsory reaction for a character, I'm just saying, don't completely overlook it. It can be useful, and downright fun, for both parties. While that may sound fun for you, it's probably not going to work for everyone. YAY! It was awesome for you, so if you can, whoooo eeeee pull it on em again.. but know now you don't have to have a 200+ bluff to do it. davis114 wrote: I guess, in the end, I'm not even talking about counter rolling to beat the rolls. I simply mean, if you realize someone has so much of a certain skill, wrap it into your rp. That.. isn't.. meant.. for... PC's....YOU... RP .. your ... characters... personality! davis114 wrote: Besides, i realize that everyone can lie, but only certain people should be able to tell a completely and utterly bold faced lie WELL. If you don't have any bluff at all, your character would more than likely, in some way, show this, unless he or she, perhaps, has discipline out the wazoo and can control their facial features and voice.
NO. This is not true. Just because you haven't poured points into BLUFF doesn't mean your character cannot tell a lie.
*sigh*
Just drop the whole SOCIAL SKILLS from your RP vocabulary, as it was never meant to do that. Just get it out of your head, because your operating on a completely flawed principle.
Regards, _________________ 
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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IronAngel
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Posted: Sun, May 31 2009, 8:48 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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I actually agree with Davis and disagree with Frey, at least towards the end of that argument: I think anyone can tell a convincing lie or be persuasive, if it's role-played well. However, I also think social skills should be given preference over a lack of them, if you're sitting on the fence, so to speak.
The "look behind you" is old, and it wouldn't be convincing if just anyone told it. But honestly, if the PC I'm RPing with had spent 33 skillpoints in Bluff and role-played an act of genuine horror, I think it's only fair that my PC falls for it, or at least gets a hint of doubt to quickly take a look. It's just good sportsmanship. You could say such practice isn't possible on Amia because people are out to win, but you can only speak for yourself and change your own behaviour.
Also, I would consider it quite insulting towards someone's RP if I just laughed in the face of the PC for whom they'd bought 33 ranks and Epic Focus in Intimidate. You can rationalize it all you want, "My character's faced dragons!" but in the end, Intimidate ranks are intimidating. You're allowed to ignore them, but it's not fair play. If my PC, anyone of them, was faced with a kobold or a gnome barbarian with 50 Intimidate, an insane gleam in his eye and saliva dripping from bared teeth, I would go along with it and RP startled. Probably it wouldn't be actual fear, but certainly a shock that might make me step back and reconsider crossing this little monster; even only if to avoid a creepy and messy confrontation, despite being quite certain of victory.
I can't expect anyone else to go along with my standards, but I sincerely believe it's fair play and good sportsmanship to let other PCs do what they're meant to do: affect my PC with a combination of RP and social skills (no rolls though, please), even letting things go in their favour when I'm really sitting on the fence based on solely RP. While I think it's lame to replace RP with skill rolls, I do acknowledge that not everyone is skilled enough a writer to genuinely come across as scary or convincing as their PC is; just like WM players might not know crap about fencing and druid players couldn't tell apart a crow and a magpie. That's why I think it's appropriate to cut them some level of slack and let the skills make up for it. I wouldn't go for either extreme, because balance works much better.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Sun, May 31 2009, 8:54 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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I, personally, allow the skills to be a -bolstering- force. Never ever a deciding factor.
IE; If you've got bluff and you tell a lie that my character -might-, ICly as a result of his personality, knowledge, and beliefs, believe... Then he's going to probably go with it when bolstered by that skill.
However.
No amount of Intimidate is going to make Eary back down from anything that he hasn't actually seen in combat, period.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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IronAngel
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Posted: Sun, May 31 2009, 9:02 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Is it not a deciding factor if it bolsters the act just enough to make it plausible? 
That's how I feel too, though: I'm not about to disregard a convincing act just because you don't have the ranks to support it. However, I will probably go along with a slightly less convincing act too, if you've got the skills. I think it's part of the definition of role-play in a sense, because we're supposed to RP special people with talents that the players lack; I'm not a persuasive person, nor am I a skilled fencer, a great poet or a scholar of magic. And I shouldn't have to be, just to RP a PC like that, because I can make up for those lacks via game mechanics. It's pretty harsh to say you shouldn't play a diplomat without a degree in smoothtalking, or that bards should be left for people with theoretic training in music.
I only expect people to make their best effort. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Sun, May 31 2009, 9:03 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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You know what I meant! It's late! Stop picking on me!
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Yurell
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Posted: Sun, May 31 2009, 9:13 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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I agree with Iron and Won, since I can't see the difference between their arguments in the last few posts :P
If I'm on the fence, I'd send a tell "look, I'm on the fence of whether to believe you or not, would you mind rolling?"
Of course, if I get back a no I'll probably fall back on the wrong side of the fence to the one they want because I can't stay on the fence in perpetum.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Sun, May 31 2009, 10:51 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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Oh come on, you know Iron always takes a position contrary to mine.
lol
Iron, actually read the whole thing before rushing to prove me wrong! I agree, if the PC RP's it well, I'm going to give him / her that, hence the reason I said it's your responsibility to RP your characters flaws / strengths, not ranks in Discipline or Intimidate.
That's my point. Stop worrying about ranks in intimidte, and actually develop =how= your character is intimidating.
Regards,
~EDIT DM: No need to discuss people who are gone behind their backs. _________________
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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feycourtier
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Posted: Sun, May 31 2009, 11:42 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2008
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Just adding my tuppence here,this happened to me ,not so long back..
Entered spiders...big half orc comes running past ,chased by spiders inc. queen..
I try too help,but he gets killed, i tell a wait!,polish off the spiders..And do an ic raise on him..fine..
then i get,(without a thx ) this, (paraphrased due too lack of being bothered)
"the huge orc lumbers up too the Fey and growls at her!" Me EAT!
//roll intimidate...numbers..
ME:..//what?
them//roll intimidate...reroll ..numbers..
ME:..// you want me too roll dice..when i just killed all your spawn ..and then raised you?
//Yeah..im a big half orc...rawr!
ME://Oh Right...*leans in yanks out a nasal hair and leaves*
Them TELL://your a bad roleplayer!
ME *sighs*
_________________
I havn`t got time today.....I`ll cry tomorrow..
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HellScourge
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Posted: Sun, May 31 2009, 12:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1
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feycourtier wrote: Just adding my tuppence here,this happened to me ,not so long back.. Entered spiders...big half orc comes running past ,chased by spiders inc. queen.. I try too help,but he gets killed, i tell a wait!,polish off the spiders..And do an ic raise on him..fine.. then i get,(without a thx ) this, (paraphrased due too lack of being bothered) "the huge orc lumbers up too the Fey and growls at her!" Me EAT! //roll intimidate...numbers.. ME:..//what? them//roll intimidate...reroll ..numbers.. ME:..// you want me too roll dice..when i just killed all your spawn ..and then raised you? //Yeah..im a big half orc...rawr! ME://Oh Right...*leans in yanks out a nasal hair and leaves* Them TELL://your a bad roleplayer! ME *sighs* Just point out nicely ic that you just wiped out all the spiders that came after him _________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder." TeroSNS wrote: Hello Everyone [...] I like tentacles [...]
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Galenson
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Posted: Sun, May 31 2009, 12:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
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It's just like fey charms. Don't look them in the eye and you have nothing to worry about.
_________________
Plays:
"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."
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The Great Equalizer
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Posted: Sun, May 31 2009, 12:50 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
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Here's how I figure it: RP > roll > non-roll
eg. If you just watched a guy rip off a dragon's jaw and beat it to death with it I don't think him not having any skill in intimidation is a factor.
Then again I think you should be able to use rolls to HELP with your RP.
Orcs are naturally quite intimidating but if two orcs the same in all respects but one has a higher intimidate then when you look at the first maybe you think "he looks tough but I think I could handle the brute" whereas the other you might think "Maybe I could take him but it isn't worth that risk."
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Galenson
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Posted: Sun, May 31 2009, 12:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
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WonWon wrote: No amount of Intimidate is going to make Eary back down from anything that he hasn't actually seen in combat, period.
Big ugly ogre: *rolls 120 intimidate*
Eary: "Meh"
Big ugly ogre: *whips up the loin cloth*
Eary: "Oh gods that's nasty!" *Fires anyway*
_________________
Plays:
"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."
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ticket
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Posted: Sun, May 31 2009, 13:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2009
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IronAngel wrote: Also, I would consider it quite insulting towards someone's RP if I just laughed in the face of the PC for whom they'd bought 33 ranks and Epic Focus in Intimidate. You can rationalize it all you want, "My character's faced dragons!" but in the end, Intimidate ranks are intimidating. You're allowed to ignore them, but it's not fair play.
QFT. I don't care if my character can wipe the floor with the intimidating orc.
If he RPs greatly that he's intimidating, my toon will chicken out and let the orc have its way.
If he doesn't RP it as elaborately but did make a roll showing good ranks in intimidate, my toon too will chicken out and let the orc have its way. (Or maybe I'd roll a will save and let it determine my toon's action.)
But if he doesn't put in any effort at all in his intimidation RP or skill-wise, my toon wouldn't be fazed.
It's just common courtesy to the other player, might also turn into something interesting letting your character be played around.
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davis114
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 15:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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FA_Frey_XC wrote: davis114 wrote: I guess, in the end, I'm not even talking about counter rolling to beat the rolls. I simply mean, if you realize someone has so much of a certain skill, wrap it into your rp. That.. isn't.. meant.. for... PC's....YOU... RP .. your ... characters... personality! davis114 wrote: Besides, i realize that everyone can lie, but only certain people should be able to tell a completely and utterly bold faced lie WELL. If you don't have any bluff at all, your character would more than likely, in some way, show this, unless he or she, perhaps, has discipline out the wazoo and can control their facial features and voice. NO. This is not true. Just because you haven't poured points into BLUFF doesn't mean your character cannot tell a lie. So you're arguement there is that this wasn't meant to be used this way when Bioware created it.
...
*looks at the modifications section of the forum*
Things evolve. Bioware didn't mean for a crapton of things to be the way they are, but we, as the players, have changed them, to fit our evolving world of roleplay. It's simply backwards to think something is wrong, just because it's never been done.
As for not being able to tell a lie without bluff, as I said, I agree that -anyone- can lie. But if someone spends the majority of their training learning how to, they would, in an rp sense, be able to do it better than others that have simply picked it up as they went along.
These skills are NOT the end all of rp. If your character is intimidating, you simply have to rp that he/she is. All I'm saying is that these skills are a factor in this rp, because they show WHY someone is so persuasive, or so intimidating. Because they've TRAINED to be decent at it.
It's just bad rp, imo, to ignore these social skills, on a -social- server, just because they weren't originally meant to be used on PC's. _________________ MoshingChris wrote: Dude makes like a drunk even when he's sober.
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Gunz
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 18:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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At the end of the day, you can't force anyone to roll a social skill because they're not required on Amia. It's not a rule on Amia that you have to have points in Bluff to lie or in Intimidate to scare the pants off someone. Does it add flavor? Sure. But no one is required to do it and it shouldn't be held against people just because they don't add points to it.
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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