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Jan
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 Posted: Wed, May 27 2009, 22:50 PM |
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Joined: 06 Nov 2005
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Are your super awesome powers DM approved? I would assume so. Great, you can fend off thieves with them. Nobody's saying you can't.
However most characters aren't djinn and don't have those powers.
And apparently you don't read my posts either because I've argued for means to loot thieves' bodies.
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Kjetta
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Posted: Wed, May 27 2009, 22:52 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Location: A Clean, Well-Lighted Place
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Stick to what's relevant, Jan.
_________________ To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!
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Jan
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Posted: Wed, May 27 2009, 22:54 PM |
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Joined: 06 Nov 2005
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I don't see myself being off topic, care to clarify?
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Kjetta
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Posted: Wed, May 27 2009, 22:56 PM |
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Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Location: A Clean, Well-Lighted Place
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Ah. Misread something. Nevermind. You are still grossly wrong though. >.> I hope someone will fight the good fight, because I'm off to bed. Ciao!
_________________ To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Wed, May 27 2009, 23:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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Tormie I am reading your posts, and I actually agree with you. I just get grumpy and say crazy things when my head is hot. 
I think what Jan is trying to do is to make thieves life interesting. But, you know adrenaline is great. I can imagine me going inside a bank and stealing it, running in high speed with my sport car, my heart beating fast. I would be so happy, I did it. I stole loads of things. I am so happy.
I turn in the corn and I see the cops, I try to run, they caught me. All interesting. But, then they shoot me. I am in the floor dead. What will they do? well, I bet they will take everything back and give to the cops and back to the bank. And if they find the driver's license of the owner of the car, they will return the car as well.
I am not against thieves. I think they are great and that people should steal. I think they should be more rewarded for not getting caught. But, if their rewards are taken from players, they should have to deal with a daring consequence. That is all.
ANd I am tired. Going to do something else. Byes for now. _________________ 
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
Last edited by Delarwyn on Wed, May 27 2009, 23:04 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Nekhy
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Posted: Wed, May 27 2009, 23:04 PM |
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All of your arguments are going in circles, anyway. I'm so glad I am not part of this debate...
But I do have a suggestion. Since you've said everything about three times now, it doesn't need to be repeated for the fourth time. Time to come up with some fresh, new arguments pro and con to keep the debate interesting.
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Wed, May 27 2009, 23:07 PM |
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Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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Yeah, I noticed. We try to conquer the opposite team by saying the same thing with different words.
Well, I think Disco gave the good solution already. Gold, xp, random items from the system.
The skill could help the roll of the widget to be more successful. So, people wouldn't have wasted all their points. So say, Jan come to steal me in a dark corner of the forest.
Jan sneaks upon Del and have a successful roll (skills + job points). He steals gold from Del, he gains XP, and then a random item is given to him with the yellow thing of the job system. Then he could trade it in a shady merchant in a rogue place for gold if he wants. One of the job system merchants. He is rewarded, Del loses money and gets poorer but nothing really drastic happens.
If he misses it, Del will PvP or start screaming, Get the thief, get the thief and such. He will end up in jail, and since the system is not really distressing anyone, he wont have a severe punishment.
_________________
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
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Wolfking6116
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Posted: Wed, May 27 2009, 23:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Location: -5 GMT
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You finally went away from 'my precious ioun stone', when the debate had gone from items about two pages ago. Next time, when "your head is hot", try taking time to cool down. It'll keep you from repeating the same thing four times, as Nekhy pointed out.
And by 'the system', I don't believe Disco means the Job system. He means the -game- system. I could be wrong, however.
Also, in regards to the bank system. I've traded them and people have taken them out, yet I only have 3 slips in my inventory and it says I can only store eight out of twenty.
_________________ Jack Tesilent - Jack's Bio
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Selmak
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Posted: Wed, May 27 2009, 23:18 PM |
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Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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Pickpocket was abused quite horrendously in the past. Despite the changes that have been made over time, it tends to be the negative experiences that people remember and/or expect to happen in future. That's not to say that it will be like that, but for example you could have one unlucky player who gets PP'd by the same shady dude on different characters on different days of the same week.
You don't necessarily get both sides of the story there, it could easily be that this pickpocket is someone who spams the widget at anything PC and doesn't RP the consequences if they fail or get caught. Or it could be that the victim has a knack for rolling oblivious characters who are great marks for an aspiring pickpocket.
Anyway it needs a clean slate to be taken seriously, in my opinion. The job system style of things is something that may make it popular without also making it a renewed pain in the ass. 
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Wed, May 27 2009, 23:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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It was never about the Ioun. I dont have an Ioun stone. It was about fairness.. and yes, I repeated myself as others repeated themselves and we kept dancing and repeating until we got tired.
I am still hot headed now and I changed subjects. So, I dont need a cool down yet. When I start to say. (censored), (censored), you (censored) that is when I am really hot headed and needing to leave.
_________________
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
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Wolfking6116
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Posted: Wed, May 27 2009, 23:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Location: -5 GMT
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You repeativly mentioned "stones", and "rings" being stolen. Mind that this was after people said that Gold-only was fine.
When you repeat a problem that has already decided to be settled... That's when people begin to dance.
_________________ Jack Tesilent - Jack's Bio
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Wed, May 27 2009, 23:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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After reading this:
Quote: I do have to agree with Jan here still. My preferences have always lied in a slightly harsher environment, but beating down a skill that scares people from losing their precious items for that reason alone, is somewhat sad.
So what if they've got an Ioun stone? It's loot, oh noes. Set people's DC items as plot so they can't be PP'd and leave it at that. Quote: Why oh why does it require mutual agreement? That's begging to have it metagamed. "No you can't pickpocket me even though I have a -3 Spot skill, I uhh, have a pocket golem." Quote: because A) its unfair
because B) you get to take stuff without permission
Because C) that stuff can be rare and valuable
because D) that stuff may hold sentimental value to the owner
because E) you get access to their inventory
Because F) They can never ever ever get it back without ooc permsion or agreement to give it back.
because G) its abuseable and griefing
that is how I see why those against PP
I went with the argument that if they really want objects, they should be punished, fairly (by mutilation or losing their belongings).
So, It wasn't settle in the discussion yet. You had it settled in your mind and I agreed with you. Remember? _________________
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
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Gunz
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Posted: Wed, May 27 2009, 23:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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How about we make it so that if someone makes a PPer, they also agree to certain terms. If they get caught (and trapped or killed) and we get our way with them, we can take our things back, and then some. You wanna steal from people? Alright, steal then. If I catch you, I'm taking my S back and I'm taking a bunch of yours too. Fair is fair right? I keep hearing cries for realism by PPers. Okay, lets make it REAL real then.
Lets thicken this shall we? If I catch you, and kill you, trying to steal from me a second time, I take everything you have on you after gutting you like a pig. That's realistic. Right? How about opening yourselves up to permakill too? No? But, but, but, but, realism? Remember?
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Wed, May 27 2009, 23:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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hehehe.. I said that too Gunz.. And so did Tormie. Realism is quite good when one's argument benefits from it.
_________________
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
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The Incognitos
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 0:00 AM |
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Joined: 10 Dec 2007
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What's all this talk about fairness doing in here? Being robbed isn't fair, so too bad. You got robbed? You should have been paying attention. If the attempt to PP was successful then you didn't know it happened and you have no reason at all to attack the thief.
Delarwyn, if you really want to form you vigilante group I think there will be quite a few people Assassinating you, looting your body and dumping it in the ocean. These people would expect the same IC penalties for you that you imply for them.
On the PP issue, if we remove the ability to lift items then the amount of gold lifted has to go up. There has to be a balance kept if fairness is going to be an issue. If 'my' PP is nerfed to remove all items then it is only fair that the amount of gold I can steal should rise massively.
I also maintain that the gold should come from the victims inventory not from the PP gold fairy. That is silly and removes the victim aspect, PP would essentially become the same as the job system only with far more severe dangers.
Getting stolen items back from a dead thief is the most common problem raised here so let's work on fixing that and stop arguing about the validity of PP as a skill.
I still think a 'loot swag' that is dropped upon PvP death is the way to go. Add the fact that the loot swag cannot be opened by the thief until a DM checks it and a few issues are solved(I don't know a thing about coding and all that so if this is impossible tell me).
_________________ Jess Incognito:- Ah, but the phoenix may fly only when its feathers are grown...
Olaf Grudgebringer: Stroppy Cleric or Morradin
Krunk (Underdark): Stay back! He's a bit mad.
the_incognitos@live.com
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Link
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 0:06 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Location: Illinois
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In a game that replicates life (a life that is unfair) I don't see how a little sanctioned "unfairness" in the form of losing items to someone who would take them is frowned upon.
The game is set in the middle ages (or something like that). People steal. People are ruthless. People have schemes to take over the world.
If someone tries to pick pocket you and you catch them, do as you will.
If someone picks your pocket and you don't notice, oh well. That item is gone.
I think there should be a way for others around you to also spot pick pocketers. If you have spot of 1 and you don't see a thief pick pocket you, but you're standing next to someone with spot 100 and they do notice it, a message should pop up in their screen ("You notice Joe pickpocket Al") and then you have the opportunity to either let the person know or not.
I think that is a "fair" compromise. Then you can cut off as many fingers as you want, or deal with them with your sword...in the face.
(lol Tomrmak, I have to say "in the face" is my new favorite line).
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Gunz
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 0:13 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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The Incognitos wrote: What's all this talk about fairness doing in here? Being robbed isn't fair, so too bad. You got robbed? The talk about fairness isn't about theft being fair or not, it's about the current system allowing you to take and even if we catch you and beat your ass down, we can't have our things back. THAT isn't fair. Just like you said, theft isn't fair. Neither does my punishment for your crime have to be. Link wrote: <Snip>
You fail to see the issue. If they get caught, not only can we not take out stuff back, but we can't take some of their stuff in turn. I know all my characters save for Tu'jol would kill you and take their stuff back AND most of them would even take some of yours as well. That's realistic, right?
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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Jan
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 0:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Nov 2005
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For the 9th time, PLEASE make a difference between getting to loot a dead thief and getting rid off pickpocketing.
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Selmak
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 0:25 AM |
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Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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The reason why a PP only gets a little gold at a time with the PP widget at the moment is because with the potential for abuse, you need to keep the amount of potential abuse low.
This of course means that even if everyone wanted to have improved payouts for PP, it can't be done without making the frequency of the target's GP loss lower.
If you want a compromise, what I would suggest is that some of the gold comes from the target's gold as it does right now, and a lot of the gold comes when you sell appears-out-of-thin-air-item to your fence.
You still then have the victimisation aspect, and the pickpocket does have a payoff from their work, but they're not necessarily going to meet grisly death because they can afford to pay back the scant GP that the target lost, if that target becomes aware of the pickpocket's actions.
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Wolfking6116
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 0:27 AM |
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Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Location: -5 GMT
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Delarwyn wrote: I went with the argument An arguement shows a valid point based on something that can have even a slim chance of being agreed on. Which, your "arguement" had nothing of that. I'm sorry to inform you that you went on a very long, time consuming, rant. It was indeed settled in my mind, and apparently several others, until you went on, and on, and on about how stealing items should be punished. When, in fact, many didn't care! Your first ranting began on page three, following Incognito's post. Nowhere on page three does anyone mention PPing items, until you. Which seems to mean that people had moved on from that part, apparently you hadn't. Dev Disco wrote: Well, Terra and I are taking a quick look and the propable outcome is that I simply set all items in your inventory to non-pickpocketable.
Even Disco was already coming up with a mechnical way of no-item PP.
Are you still sure it wasn't settled? _________________ Jack Tesilent - Jack's Bio
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 0:29 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Xaviera wrote: Maybe I've never been PP'd by a 30th level rogue with 100 points in the skill, but I'm not aware of ever having lost more than about 15 gp to a PP attempt, which is frankly so laughable that I would never waste points on the skill. You haven' because items and feat bonuses aren't counted in the skill ... maximum points are base skills + dex mod. Dev Disco wrote: My definition of a good compromise is a solution that makes everyone a bit unhappy. :D Not me, so far your compromise sounds like what I've been suggesting for the past eight months :D Delarwyn wrote: If he fails, I am not kicking ass. Kicking ass means nothing. I will Make public you are a thief, you will go to jail, your belongings taken (thief are not allowed property after caught), things given back to real owners and the rest auctioned. Yep, that seems perfectly reasonable ... so long as every crime sees the exact same punishment, by whatever groups' they are caught by laws. Delarwyn wrote: There was a place, I think Japan, that tattooed the face of the thieves. We can do that. You will have a tattoo in your forehead, branded you as a thief. So, people will be able to want to PvP you just for that. Who likes thieves? Am I allowed to kill Del and then tattoo all over her face? Would you accept that kind of mutilation on your characters? TormakSaber wrote: But for (censored) sake don't cry when you get caught and I loot your body like you can do to me when I'm alive, OR when I'm dead. There's no system in place to loot bodies, or suddenly there would be a nice tight-knit group of PvP sorcerors going out to get rich quick. o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote: Lets thicken this shall we? If I catch you, and kill you, trying to steal from me a second time, I take everything you have on you after gutting you like a pig. That's realistic. Right? How about opening yourselves up to permakill too? No? But, but, but, but, realism? Remember?
Most of the arguments against PP, not for, are based on realism. Sure, you want realism? My thief can just slit your throat and then rob you, or we could have the above group of sorcerors come along.
So far, I like the idea of taking only gold. Fine, if you kill me I always give the gold back. But FFs you cannot really lose more than a hundred gold. A HUNDRED gold! Can you honestly tell me that you would notice that gone from your inventory if the yellow text didn't tell you? Put it this way, 100 gold is 0.01% of a million gold.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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The Incognitos
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 0:40 AM |
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Joined: 10 Dec 2007
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If we remove the ability to lift items then the amount of gold lifted has to go up. There has to be a balance kept if fairness is going to be an issue. If 'my' PP is nerfed to remove all items then it is only fair that the amount of gold I can steal should rise massively.
I also maintain that the gold should come from the victims inventory not from the PP gold fairy. That is silly and removes the victim aspect, PP would essentially become the same as the job system only with far more severe dangers.
Getting stolen items back from a dead thief is the most common problem raised here so let's work on fixing that and stop arguing about the validity of PP as a skill.
I still think a 'loot swag' that is dropped upon PvP death is the way to go. Add the fact that the loot swag cannot be opened by the thief until a DM checks it and a few issues are solved(I don't know a thing about coding and all that so if this is impossible tell me).
Just restating the constructive part of my last post, I don't think people got past the 'reciprocal consequences' part.
_________________ Jess Incognito:- Ah, but the phoenix may fly only when its feathers are grown...
Olaf Grudgebringer: Stroppy Cleric or Morradin
Krunk (Underdark): Stay back! He's a bit mad.
the_incognitos@live.com
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 0:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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The Incognitos wrote: If we remove the ability to lift items then the amount of gold lifted has to go up. There has to be a balance kept if fairness is going to be an issue. If 'my' PP is nerfed to remove all items then it is only fair that the amount of gold I can steal should rise massively.
He's balancing it by letting you use items to add to your skill now (as far as I'm aware).
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 0:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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NO, you cannot Yurell because Del isn't robbing people of their hard to acquire items. So, there is no reason for you to brand her.
I agree with Selmak. Items shall not come from the inventory of a player. They can be produced by the fairy of Hell, but not from the inventory of a player. The coming from thin air item can be sold to a thief merchant as I said before and you can have your gold. Some gold should come from the player as well. Just to balance it.
I don't even care of hunting you and killing. I think that massively boring. But, I will want you punished severely if you are allowed the right to pick on my items. First, because that IS what happens to robbers when they get caught.
I don't care about murderers in game. They killed me, I am oocly raised, or tortured, or put in prison for weeks without being able to play my character until a resolution is done. That happened before, it was RP, nothing was lost we all gained with it. Now, taking items from players IS NOT FAIR. Oh, too bad life is unfair. Well, I dont mind if life is or isnt fair or not. The fact is that we are in a controlled environment that is balanced to be fair. The thieves have the right to rob, but they get mad if their items are taken into consideration for an auction. Well, too bad. Life isnt fair would answer that, wouldn't it?
Wolf, It was settled by Disco yes, but players kept talking and I kept talking. And there is nothing on this forum that says I cannot rant. I rant with respect and without the use of curses. If you dont want to read, it is fine with me. Never asked you to read what I said.
I dont mean no disrespect to you. I have nothing against you or any of the players here. I know your characters for a long time and I have nothing to complain about you at all. But, I think the people defending the robbery of items from inventories are just closing their minds for a severe punishment, that I believe and others believe would be most fair.
_________________
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Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
Last edited by Delarwyn on Thu, May 28 2009, 0:50 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 0:49 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Well, so far your argument has been: "I should be able to kill them and take their stuff. It's realistic."
How is it any less 'realistic' for them to be able to take your stuff once dead?
And how is it 'not fair'? You can shift your build to get the skill to, and use it. Get them back like that.
Otherwise the argument about Shadowjump made earlier is applicable.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Wolfking6116
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 0:59 AM |
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Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Location: -5 GMT
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Del, if you'd like, you can still go read the page I mentioned.
Disco settled it, and the players talked about the gold.
You kept talking about items, which in turn brought more people to do the same.
The only reason I, personally, ever defended item theft is because whenever a viable alteration to the manner of theft was proposed it was met with a flat out 'No.' You can go through Things to Change if you think I'm exaggerating.
As for 'severe punishment', I wouldn't mind it - at all. So long as you'd be willing to let that same character retaliate in the same permanent nature. Example being, finding you alone and removing your character of their legs, permanently. Before you say "Well that's not fair!", it is. IC actions deserve IC responses, no?
_________________ Jack Tesilent - Jack's Bio
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 0:59 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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*sighs* I said too many times why it is not fair.
The thief lives in an environment where it is against the rules to kill him, to take all his belongs, to take him into a dungeon and leave him there, to hang him or to mutilate him.
The player wont feel any pain when I beat his character to pulp, so the lesson, DO NOT STEAL, wont sink in, because there is nothing no one can do against him that will cause any damage at all to his character.
He will go to prison for one hour, big deal. He will get beaten up. Big deal. I get him and kill him and he gives my item back, but he still stole all this neat item from other people, so fuck yeah. Big Deal.
There is nothing you can do, nothing, to make a character to feel the pain, I feel when grinding insanely for weeks in order to acquire an item, maybe a ring that is special to me, that worth loads of money and that will be taken away in two seconds. So the victim is screwed over three times and one more. But, what happens to thief really? Nothing.
The system dont allow me to do anything against your wishes. So it is totally against my wishes that you take my things from me. I want protection too.
Making a robber wont help me, because I would feel like shit to take something from someone and I would end up giving back. That is how I am, I cannot do it. So, yeah, I wouldnt even collect the sweet taste of revenging by having a thief robbing the robber.
So, you make me feel impotent, you take my favorite things and honestly I would eventually quit this game because I cannot take feeling shit for long.
We have people complaining like old rags when they get beaten up in PvP. You will have people going to the roof when you steal something they care about. DMs if are not going yet, will go nuts with it.
It is just good for thieves, they are the only one really benefiting from this. That isnt fair
_________________
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
Last edited by Delarwyn on Thu, May 28 2009, 1:02 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:02 AM |
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Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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Wolfking6116 wrote: Del, if you'd like, you can still go read the page I mentioned.
Disco settled it, and the players talked about the gold.
You kept talking about items, which in turn brought more people to do the same.
The only reason I, personally, ever defended item theft is because whenever a viable alteration to the manner of theft was proposed it was met with a flat out 'No.' You can go through Things to Change if you think I'm exaggerating.
As for 'severe punishment', I wouldn't mind it - at all. So long as you'd be willing to let that same character retaliate in the same permanent nature. Example being, finding you alone and removing your character of their legs, permanently. Before you say "Well that's not fair!", it is. IC actions deserve IC responses, no?
we would all end up in a server of handicapped. *shrugs* not fun to anyone.
And I had many people talking about items, before I decided to get involved. I showed you that too.
I am not saying to remove thieves. They are a part of the game. But no one has the right to win always. And thieves cannot really be punished in a way that matters. _________________
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
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Wolfking6116
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:05 AM |
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Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Location: -5 GMT
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Delarwyn wrote: The thief lives in an environment where it is against the rules to kill him, to take all his belongs, to take him into a dungeon and leave him there, to hang him or to mutilate him.
Despite having a prison, do you know how rare it is actually used by the guards? Normally characters are, for whatever reason, sent out from the city.
Honestly, I would like to see someone sent to prison for their actions. If I did something constituting it, I would even understand "Permanently", quotations being if I could find a viable manner of escape that it would be permitted.
You're running in circles, again. We've got the picture, several times now. Stealing items from players is bad. Why else do you think stealing only gold was brought up? _________________ Jack Tesilent - Jack's Bio
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:08 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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I was answering this:
Quote: And how is it 'not fair'? You can shift your build to get the skill to, and use it. Get them back like that.
Otherwise the argument about Shadowjump made earlier is applicable. Quote: Despite having a prison, do you know how rare it is actually used by the guards? Normally characters are, for whatever reason, sent out from the city.
Haha, you steal my only ring of Eilistraeen, that is rare, unique and only found once by anyone in the game. And oh, RP in a cell is punishment? Come on????? It is funny.
Alright then, lets do this. I offer myself to go to jail and dont play Amia for a week in exchange of a wonderforged weapon. Woooo, that is cool. i will love that. That will really benefit me.
And yes, wolf, everything was said already. This topic is as dead as my body will be one day. _________________
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
Last edited by Delarwyn on Thu, May 28 2009, 1:11 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Delarwyn wrote: The thief lives in an environment where it is against the rules to kill him, to take all his belongs, to take him into a dungeon and leave him there, to hang him or to mutilate him. And you live in an environment where it is against the rules for him to do that to you. Taking all his items is a cry for escalation to the conflict, not justice. It'd be like someone deliberately splashing wine in your face and you go and burn down their house. Delarwyn wrote: There is nothing you can do, nothing, to make a character to feel the pain, I feel when grinding insanely for weeks in order to acquire an item, maybe a ring that is special to me, that worth loads of money and that will be taken away in two seconds. So the victim is screwed over three times and one more. But, what happens to thief really? Nothing. Disco said he is changing it so that items cannot be taken, your argument is void. Delarwyn wrote: The system dont allow me to do anything against your wishes. So it is totally against my wishes that you take my things from me. I want protection too. Yes it does - you can PP right back. Delarwyn wrote: So, you make me feel impotent, you take my favorite things and honestly I would eventually quit this game because I cannot take feeling (censored) for long.
Disco's changing it, so again a null point.
In each of your posts, you demand the right to escalate the conflict every single time but refuse to allow it to be escalated back to affect you equally:
They PP a small amount of gold from you.
You demand to be able to kill them and take all their stuff. You call that fair.
They demand to be able to kill you and take all your stuff. And suddenly that's not fair?
There is a much bigger leap between PP and 'kill and take everything' than there is between 'kill and take everything' and 'kill and take everything'.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Wolfking6116
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Location: -5 GMT
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Delarwyn wrote: But no one has the right to win always. Would you mind if I use this in the several other forum debates that are going on about this? The only thing you quoted with people talking about the system, was someone giving a way for items not to be stolen, a reason why RP pick pocketing won't work, and a list on why it's unfair. Yes, they were talking about items, keyword were. When you brought it back up, it hadn't be discussed for... Let me count exactly. 32, thirty-two posts. Delarwyn wrote: Haha, you steal my only ring of Eilistraeen, that is rare, unique and only found once by anyone in the game. And oh, RP in a cell is punishment? Come on????? It is funny.
RP? Who said anything about having someone to RP with in a cell? Or even not playing for just a week. Notice how I said " permanently". _________________ Jack Tesilent - Jack's Bio
Last edited by Wolfking6116 on Thu, May 28 2009, 1:16 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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Yurell, I have said before, that I was arguing to answer people like you that is arguing with me..
I know Disco isn't even bothering with it all that he is working on a solution and that somehow he will balance it out. I am not affraid of what he will do, because up to now, Amia is a fair environment to play. I wouldn't have another server because of that.
It does not null my argument, because I wasn't arguing about what Disco is doing, but about what is going in the mind of players that defend the taken out of items from others inventory.
Nothing will be done against a player that is permanent in Amia. The DM team and administrators wont impose that. I wouldn't ask that either.
All my argument about killing was me trying to find something that would hurt a player of a rogue as much as it would hurt Valas for example if one of his special items were stolen. Or me for that matter and I am certain many others. Many of us are collectors, we like to keep Loads of crap that worth nothing, but are full of rp.
_________________
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
Last edited by Delarwyn on Thu, May 28 2009, 1:19 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:17 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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Wolf, as long as people answer me I will repeat myself. As long as people repeat themselves with their arguments I will repeat myself with mine. I born to argue, I love debate. I should be a freaking Greek philosopher and have loads of dialogs. I would honestly love that.
So, yeah, I know I repeated many times my opinions, but so did everyone else.
_________________
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
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Wolfking6116
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:21 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Location: -5 GMT
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Fetch me when your arguements are valid, or even about something that is being debated. Until then, good luck.
Remember that there is a difference between "Opinion" and "Fact".
_________________ Jack Tesilent - Jack's Bio
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Selmak
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:21 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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One of these days someone will invent a way to share thoughts over the internet. It will be patented and used by a site called BrainTube, which will bring a whole new dimension to philosophy.
And probably fry everyone's brains.
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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At Del:
Yes, my arguments were repetitive, but that was only because I was simply repeating counterarguments to the same arguments that were never themselves countered.
The only reason I defended theft is because I proposed the idea that it should only take gold months ago. I do not support taking items, and if ever I did get one I would trade it back for gold. I do not support the taking of items.
That said, what is it that you have against my idea? I'm now giving you a chance to counter-argue me rather than repeat the same arguments on thedefensive.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:26 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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ROFL Selmak!!
Quote: Fetch me when your arguements are valid, or even about something that is being debated. Until then, good luck.
Remember that there is a difference between "Opinion" and "Fact". I am debating ideas, ideas are opinions of other players and not fact. Things were being debated Wolf, this entire thread is a debate between: I want to steal your goodies vs I dont want you to steal my goodies. Everything else is just words, opinions, ideas, valid or not in each other opinions. For example, I dont think you are contributing at all. I dont think Jan contributed at all. I think Yurell were sane somehow in the middle of it all. And I think I made a pretty good point of why we shouldnt have people stealing goodies. Now, it is the end... I am really retiring and I will be checking up on Disco's ability to balance. Until then, I will play my shadowdancer with maxed spot and nothing important on her inventory. And that: Quote: Yes, my arguments were repetitive, but that was only because I was simply repeating counterarguments to the same arguments that were never themselves countered. I felt the same way actually. Quote: The only reason I defended theft is because I proposed the idea that it should only take gold months ago. I do not support taking items, and if ever I did get one I would trade it back for gold. I do not support the taking of items.
Nothing to argue here. Me too. _________________
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
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The Incognitos
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:29 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
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I don't want to offend Delarwyn but it sounds like you want to 'have your cake and eat it too'. If you want to be able to loot bodies then the same applies to you. The big difference being that you face less chance of being killed and looted seeing as you (I assume) don't PP people and place yourself at risk. People can't just kill you and loot you without reason because you should always have a way out of PvP.
Saying 'stealing is not fair' is not an argument. We established that stealing isn't fair and as such almost everyone has said that the PP could be limited to gold and XP. However, if valuable items are excluded then the amount of gold taken should rise accordingly. If not then it isn't balanced.
If you are unhappy with someone stealing a few thousand gold from you then I have to question how concerned you are with fairness as opposed to total control of your virtual environment and revenge on any who wrong you. Inventing gold out of thin air as opposed to actually having it stolen reeks of pandering to fragile egos.
So, how can we make stolen stuff retrievable? Again, how to answer this question?
_________________ Jess Incognito:- Ah, but the phoenix may fly only when its feathers are grown...
Olaf Grudgebringer: Stroppy Cleric or Morradin
Krunk (Underdark): Stay back! He's a bit mad.
the_incognitos@live.com
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:32 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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I am totally fine with taking Gold. You can take Gold, and you should gain Xp and a Disco's created item specially for rogues. That could be collectible or sold to a merchant rogue. I said that before somewhere.
You, I, Yurell, Wolf, Valas, Gunz are saying the same thing here actually. I think it was established what is fair for everyone. And most of us agreed with that.
Lascivar and Jan and maybe someone else, I dont remember, were the ones that led me to discuss the punishment and all blah blah I said.
_________________
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
Last edited by Delarwyn on Thu, May 28 2009, 1:33 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Selmak
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:33 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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I already said, doesn't matter how much anyone may want to have a bigger payout in GP, it can't be done without drastically reducing the frequency of payouts. Otherwise, someone can log on, pickpocket a few chumps, and log off without facing any consequences.
In the days before pickpocket widgets (think before even the first expansion arrived) anyone who didn't want something important taken would load up on Skeleton Knuckles. So then, no matter how many times someone pickpocketed you, chances were they would always come away with one of those. 
In the same way, someone who doesn't want to lose GP would just spend it all away to nothing on stuff.
Last edited by Selmak on Thu, May 28 2009, 1:39 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:33 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Delarwyn wrote: Quote: Yes, my arguments were repetitive, but that was only because I was simply repeating counterarguments to the same arguments that were never themselves countered. I felt the same way actually. Quote: The only reason I defended theft is because I proposed the idea that it should only take gold months ago. I do not support taking items, and if ever I did get one I would trade it back for gold. I do not support the taking of items. Nothing to argue here. Me too. I was being repetitive because I fending off the almost-exact same arguments from you as I got from Tormak on the first page.
A debate should go:
Person A: Argument
Person B: Counterargues or provides a new argument
Person A: Counterargues or provides a new argument
Person B: Counterargues or provides a new argument
Etcetera.
My personal view is - stealing items is bad, but stealing gold is acceptable because there is so much of it, and the mount stolen is only one monster kill (or a goblin spawn) away from recovering.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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I think it should be more gold than one goblin away honestly. I think it should go in the house of the hundreds.
How can we being arguing if we were saying the same thing? And, I dont think Tormie was saying anything about taking his gold. I think he was referring to items mostly.
ummmmmm
Person A: Argument - I think it is fair to take your items.
Person B: Counterargues or provides a new argument - No, it is not, because of that and I think this should be done to you.
Person A: Counterargues or provides a new argument - I think you are crazy, then all people should be permakilled.
Person B: Counterargues or provides a new argument = No, because they are not stealing and because we have Gods and clerics. But, yes the raise scroll should be gone.
I think I filled your requirements in many of my posts.
_________________
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Delarwyn wrote: I think it should be more gold than one goblin away honestly. I think it should go in the house of the hundreds.
How can we being arguing if we were saying the same thing? And, I dont think Tormie was saying anything about taking his gold. I think he was referring to items mostly.
ummmmmm
Person A: Argument - I think it is fair to take your items.
Person B: Counterargues or provides a new argument - No, it is not, because of that and I think this should be done to you.
Person A: Counterargues or provides a new argument - I think you are crazy, then all people should be permakilled.
Person B: Counterargues or provides a new argument = No, because they are not stealing and because we have Gods and clerics. But, yes the raise scroll should be gone.
I think I filled your requirements in many of my posts.
Actually, you were more like:
Person A: Argument - I think it is fair to take your items.
Person B: Counterargues or provides a new argument - Then I should be able to kill you and take all yours
Person A: Counterargues or provides a new argument - Then I should be able to kill you and take all yours
Person B: Counterargues or provides a new argument - But I didn't steal!
Person A: Counterargues or provides a new argument - You just said you could kill me and take all my stuff, why can't I do the same to you?
Person B: Counterargues or provides a new argument - Because I didn't steal your stuff.
Person A: Counterargues or provides a new argument - You just said you could kill me and take all my stuff, why can't I do the same to you?
It seemed to get stuck at at point.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:46 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Stealing as an IC Action isn't fari. That's all well and good. It'an RP server.
However.
Taking anything (and I literally mean anything, even if it's one, copper piece) without consent and without a viable means of recourse (that, likewise, lacks consent) is, from a Game perspective, an unfair thing.
Typically, the risk for any thief who pickpockets someone isn't whether or not they get caught. It's whether or not the person who caught them is capable of doing much worse to them.
That risk doesn't exist in Amia (Considering the lack of Enforced Permadeath, Enforced Long-Term Injuries, Enforced Character Removal for Jail Time, and non-PP Item Theft), and as a result, pickpocketing becomes an unfair approach.
The argument that you can pickpocket them back is well and good, however, only certain PCs have that option of recourse, despite the fact Pick Pocket is an option that works on any individual.
Personally, I'm a firm believer that you'd be better off making the Job System use it (And, same as Minstrel, require PP Ranks) and give it a good amount of bonus (and penalty for failure). If you wish to Pick Pocket from another PC, there's a route that is never used by the Pick Pocketer; Diplomacy. I know for a fact that the sheer majority of posters in this thread would likely consent were they given the choice and an agreement made between the two - then just do it with dice rolls or RP.
You can claim that 100 Gold isn't much. You can even claim that 1 Gold isn't much. However, in the same manner that 100 Gold apparently means a great deal to the thief (given they're picking a pocket to get that much), that same loss of gold (a possession they, presumably, worked for) means a great deal to the victim.
The Loot the Bodies idea is a bad idea, I agree, because it will kick the whole "PvPing for Benefits" idea to a new level. However, this already is incorporated in game - you just need 1 PP rank to do it, and unless your victim is one of the few to have it, they'll never be able to get you back for it with the same lack of consent you gave them.
Fair's Fair from a Mechanics and Gameplay perspective. If you want to be a master thief and go against PCs, just do it the way anyone else does something to another character that isn't covered in mechanics - Diplomatically with consent between two players.
Give a little, get a little.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:52 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Del:
The problem was your argument was retaliatory - you accepted their right to PP under certain conditions, and they accepted those conditions if they were applied universally ... which you weren't willing to accept, so you merely tried to establish that what you did was less wrong than what they were doing.
Won:
I think your point is reasonable - I think that (if it is possible and isn't too much trouble for the scripters):
* It remembers what gold came from who for the reset;
* If you die in the same area as these people during that reset, the gold goes back to its owner;
* After reset, you waited too long - you no longer have the thief 'red-handed'
Either that or just make it a rule that if you're killed you have to give the money back.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
Last edited by Yurell on Thu, May 28 2009, 1:54 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:54 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Yurell wrote: Won:
I think your point is reasonable - I think that (i fit is possible and isn't too much trouble for the scripters):
* It remembers what gold came from who for the reset;
* If you die in the same area as these people during that reset, the gold goes back to its owner;
* After reset, you waited too long - you no longer have the thief 'red-handed'
Either that or just make it a rule that if you're killed you have to give the money back.
There's a hole in that.
Typically, whenever you classify a bonus that acts as a negative to another, you consider Risk vs Reward.
Reward = Gold Taken from Other Individual
Risk = Gold Returned
See, the reward is good no matter which way you twist it. The Risk is a neutral result. You simply return to where you started.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:58 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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I agree with wonwon and in my crazy "let me kill you and take your intestines and hands and feet and head off" argument I was just trying to say the same thing he said.
Basically all I said with my graphic descriptions of what could happen if it was allow for thieves to get their ways were this:
Quote: That risk doesn't exist in Amia (Considering the lack of Enforced Permadeath, Enforced Long-Term Injuries, Enforced Character Removal for Jail Time, and non-PP Item Theft), and as a result, pickpocketing becomes an unfair approach. _________________
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
Last edited by Delarwyn on Thu, May 28 2009, 1:59 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 1:58 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Failure: You lose an amount of gold equal to the amount you would have gained if you surpassed the check by that much? Let's call it a fine, which the city gives to the victim as recompense.
That sounds like a reasonable recourse to me - the penalty if you lose is exactly the same in magnitude as the bonus if you win.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Selmak
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Posted: Thu, May 28 2009, 2:00 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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The Incognitos wrote: So, how can we make stolen stuff retrievable? Again, how to answer this question?
Make them 'hot goods'. In other words they cannot be sold or transferred except back to the original player, for a certain period of time (in real life). If there is a dispute about the handling of events, this provision allows for the item to be retrieved or for some kind of settlement.
It means that when you pickpocket an item you're doing so with the understanding that you shouldn't be offloading said item right away. Also, there is the very real problem of how to hold onto said items if you can't put them in a bag to reduce their weight. Thus you can't pickpocket everyone, you must be selective.
I don't think that it's horribly difficult to script. But I don't think it'll be popular.
Obviously GP is much easier to handle than this.
Last edited by Selmak on Thu, May 28 2009, 2:03 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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