AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Cori wrote:

If I might suggest, leave it mostly as it is, but when using the PP widget, have a successful roll grant gold and xp, with the gold NOT coming from the "victim", but rather generated by the system (yes, coming from nowhere). On a "bonus roll", very low chance, have an item spawn in the pp'ers inventory from the loot bin appropriate for the level of the character (excluding perhaps the highest bins), possibly still working with the same 5 pound limitation. Perhaps a chance at a mythal or crafting component as well, much like the existing loot system.

This would add more "value" to the skill for those who invest in it, would not force a rogue to take the Thief job just to do what they should be able to do anyway (leaving them more open with what they can choose from the job system, as it was intended), and would eliminate the one-way access to people's inventory (since anything rewarded would be coming from the system, not the victim). And hopefully, it wouldn't require too drastic of a coding effort, since it would work within the existing system.

Alternatively, leave out the item part if it'd be too hard or too unbalancing, and simply up the gold value rewarded significantly. Again, from the system though, not from the victim.

I imagine rogues sitting in rings PPing each other to their heart's delight. I'd rather have a system taking only gold.

Kjetta wrote:

I imagine rogues sitting in rings PPing each other to their heart's delight. I'd rather have a system taking only gold.

Somehow that brings disturbing images to mind...

Hrm. I thought I typed "And have it set so a person can only use the widget on another person once per reset"....but I don't see that anywhere, so I must've thought it, then not typed it.

Now it's typed.

Make it gold only but don't make it appear out of thin air. I think the gold should still come from the victims inventory. It's stealing! Stealing!

The fact that you take it from them is the thrill of it. Make the amount relative to the level of the victim, but don't make 'us' all so wussy and pissy pants that we can't handle losing a tiny little bit of virtual gold. It's seriously getting beyond a joke if people are going to be that upset at losing only a bit of gold.

Suggestion: a pair of gloves with one of the 1.69 Player Item feats onnit, which is a free action useable once per target per reset.

1) On activation it send an emote to the Talk channel *your hand darts inside [target's name]'s clothing briefly and comes out clutching something*

2a) The target wins Spot or Listen, the picker is dumped to the ground and out of stealth and they're informed of the attempt.

2b) The target loses Spot/Listen and ten rounds later it reports to the player that they've just noticed their purse is missing. It removes some gold and gives it to the pickpocket.

This obliges you to be in stealth before you can get away with it at all, and the pickpocket Player feat would work off DEX and ranks alone, so you'd struggle to pickpocket someone with no ranks but a tonne of Spot/Listen buff items on. Also, if one of their buddies is a uber-Spot thieftaker, you'll get rumbled when they see the Talk channel emote.

That's kind of the point; pickpocketing works because the mark and his firends are careless enough to stop paying attention to their surroundings.

Last edited by Yurell on Wed, May 27 2009, 10:29 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Except that means having to swap out gloves for it.

Edit: And why is it a feat that works of dex alone? Why not the PP skill?

You're not in combat. Why does it matter?

Kjetta wrote:

Why does one grant you access to another character's inventory and not the other?

Then the problem hasn't got anything to do with pickpocketing, but other NWN limitations. Fix those, don't kill off RP opportunities so willingly.
Making it take gold only is lame because Amia's inflation is worse than Zimbabwe's.

The Incognitos wrote:

Make it gold only but don't make it appear out of thin air. I think the gold should still come from the victims inventory. It's stealing! Stealing!

The fact that you take it from them is the thrill of it. Make the amount relative to the level of the victim, but don't make 'us' all so wussy and pissy pants that we can't handle losing a tiny little bit of virtual gold. It's seriously getting beyond a joke if people are going to be that upset at losing only a bit of gold.

I agree with this. Gold is an unlimited resource on Amia, unlike custom items etc. I'd even go as far to make a progressive pickpocketing system. The more gold you got, the more you will lose. Another gold sink, you see!

I'm not a socialist, no.

It's not a gold sink, it's unfairly ganking my inventory and handing it to another player, but disallowing me from doing the same back to them with the skills my character has that would allow me to do so (A big sword and a stab to the face.)

Re: Uce's suggestion

On hit on gloves, doesn't that mean you have to attack the target? Wouldn't that bring you out of stealth and you might kill your victim with sneak attack?

I find it funny that people get annoyed when others do not pay 5 gold tolls and other similar banditry/high way man rp. Yet they go bonkers if they are Pickpocket for the same amount of gold.

herkles wrote:

I find it funny that people get annoyed when others do not pay 5 gold tolls and other similar banditry/high way man rp. Yet they go bonkers if they are Pickpocket for the same amount of gold.

It's not that strange. In one situation, you are in control of your character, in the other, you are not in control of your character. Some people prefer control, others don't. Quite natural human behaviour.

Last edited by Lascivar on Wed, May 27 2009, 10:34 AM, edited 2 times in total.

ticket wrote:

Re: Uce's suggestion

On hit on gloves, doesn't that mean you have to attack the target? Wouldn't that bring you out of stealth and you might kill your victim with sneak attack?

LMAO. "GIMME YOUR FUCKING GOLD B**CH!" *Kills!*

It'd be more like a mugging than a pickpocket. xD

But playing in a DM controlled PW means having to give up some control. If you aren't willing to do that I must say you shouldn't be playing here.

TormakSaber wrote:

It's not a gold sink, it's unfairly ganking my inventory and handing it to another player, but disallowing me from doing the same back to them with the skills my character has that would allow me to do so (A big sword and a stab to the face.)

My character can't shadowjump like an SDer can, why should I have to change my build just to be able to do something other people can? I want it now!

Jan, Normally, I'd agree with you. But not in the case of PP, I think it's too silly that only PP should be allow to provoce this lack of control. Why not make it so that when you die, a backpack container drops next to you with all your items? It won't happen on Amia, never, but until that's the case, PP is the odd feature out

herkles wrote:

I find it funny that people get annoyed when others do not pay 5 gold tolls and other similar banditry/high way man rp. Yet they go bonkers if they are Pickpocket for the same amount of gold.

Yes, we get it, you said it twice now, herkles.

Last edited by Uberuce on Wed, May 27 2009, 10:59 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Yurell wrote:

Except that means having to swap out gloves for it.

Edit: And why is it a feat that works of dex alone? Why not the PP skill?

1) What Tormak said.

2) Mythal. Feat activation is only one power.

3) "DEX and ranks alone"

Ticket: On-hit? Nopes, I said free action Player Feat, which is a spanky new feature of 1.69 where they put ten player, DM and item feats into engine, for the to be make glorious benefit to Dev customisation, jah?

Come to think of it, it might be an Item feat; I'm deeply clueless as to them, so this could be a lead balloon anyway.

Above that, Kjetta and Tormak's argument is pretty watertight; until it's possible to take items from someone by cutting their head off and rifling through their bloodsoaked packs at leisure, then it doesn't make sense to be able to do it while they're awake and alive.

My apologies, misread.
Why not allow items and feats? People are using items and feats for their spot.

Uberuce wrote:

Suggestion: a pair of gloves with one of the 1.69 Player Item feats onnit, which is a free action useable once per target per reset.

1) On activation it send an emote to the Talk channel *your hand darts inside [target's name]'s clothing briefly and comes out clutching something*

2a) The target wins Spot or Listen, the picker is dumped to the ground and out of stealth and they're informed of the attempt.

2b) The target loses Spot/Listen and ten rounds later it reports to the player that they've just noticed their purse is missing. It removes some gold and gives it to the pickpocket.

This obliges you to be in stealth before you can get away with it at all, and the pickpocket Player feat would work off DEX and ranks alone, so you'd struggle to pickpocket someone with no ranks but a tonne of Spot/Listen buff items on. Also, if one of their buddies is a uber-Spot thieftaker, you'll get rumbled when they see the Talk channel emote.

That's kind of the point; pickpocketing works because the mark and his firends are careless enough to stop paying attention to their surroundings.

Well, the central issue is that we can't block regular PP. I did find some tool that may allow that, though, and if that's possible your solution would be a very good one.

Jan wrote:

But playing in a DM controlled PW means having to give up some control. If you aren't willing to do that I must say you shouldn't be playing here.

Certainly, no arguments against that. But it's possible to give some control to the DM (or other players) while allowing each individual to keep some control, too. Hence the discussions where the limit goes.

Last edited by Uberuce on Wed, May 27 2009, 11:20 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Dev Disco wrote:

Well, the central issue is that we can't block regular PP. I did find some tool that may allow that, though, and if that's possible your solution would be a very good one.

I imagined the gloves as a replaceent for the current widget, but I've just this very hour converted to Tormak and Kjetta's camp, so I'd rather see that gone too.

Giving people unlimited access to your packs upon your death is a terrible idea, so we don't allow it. I don't think allowing it in smaller doses is anything but a smaller but still terrible idea.

Yurell: walking past someone undetected is hard enough, but putting your hands in their pockets and removing jinglyjangly money/items without them noticing is a step above. Pickpockets work on inattention and distraction; if you're paranoid enough to wear a stack of Spot/Listen gear, I think you deserve to be considered too alert.

I've no argument against removing it, so long as those with skill points invested get their skill points shifted, and those with Skill Focus PP get another feat.

Uberuce wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

Well, the central issue is that we can't block regular PP. I did find some tool that may allow that, though, and if that's possible your solution would be a very good one.

I imagined the gloves as a replaceent for the current widget, but I've just this very hour converted to Tormak and Kjetta's camp, so I'd rather see that gone too.

Giving people unlimited access to your packs upon your death is a terrible idea, so we don't allow it. I don't think allowing it in smaller doses is anything but a smaller but still terrible idea.

Yurell: walking past someone undetected is hard enough, but putting your hands in their pockets and removing jinglyjangly money/items without them noticing is a step above. Pickpockets work on inattention and distraction; if you're paranoid enough to wear a stack of Spot/Listen gear, I think you deserve to be considered too alert.

*Sighs, raids Tormie's, Kjetta's and now Ruce's camp and burns it all, sitting on the smoldering ashes.*

If the dexxer himself is against it then I'm sort've running out of things to say. lol.

I guess I just prefer a slightly more harsh environment and don't care much about keeping items, just from past experience of losing everything upon death etc..

I'd be quite content still seeing pickpocket changed to a theft of gold only, that scales determining how much gold the target has. If people have -alot- of gold, then yes, I could imagine they would be stacking spot/listen, just as any person who walks around with a few thousand in their wallet IRL might be cautious/paranoid about losing it. Do we have to kill something that sparks good RP?

I figure it can still be used as an RP skill in the same vein as persuade, bluff, etc. Roll a die and hope the other person consents to it. PP's counter is already well established so there's not gonna be much discussion with that.

I always imagine item bonuses to PP to be slight of hand bonuses. It just seems unfair to me:
Skills + items + ability modifier + feat + circumstance modifiers vs skills + ability modifier

Let me look if I manage intercepting PP first. That would open a lot of new options.

Lascivar wrote:

If the dexxer himself is against it then I'm sort've running out of things to say. lol.

I'm a DEXer, but I'm not an arse. Neither Va nor Frank have a single rank in Pickpocket.

Hrm. Plainly untrue. Okay: I'm an arse, but I'm aware of it, don't approve of it, try to stop myself being one and generally succeed. Unless I get really drunk and forget.

However, I do know what I could be like if I didn't know I was an arse and there was a fuller PP system: I'd roll up a generic good SD build with full Pickpocket, upon login I'd make a note of all the people who have no classes with Spot as a skill, then I'd go to town on them. From time to time I'd deliberately target someone who I knew did have Spot but was a sucky anti-SD build, so I could cover up the login metagaming without having to take a kicking in the process.

Uberuce wrote:

However, I do know what I could be like if I didn't know I was an arse and there was a fuller PP system: I'd roll up a generic good SD build with full Pickpocket, upon login I'd make a note of all the people who have no classes with Spot as a skill, then I'd go to town on them. From time to time I'd deliberately target someone who I knew did have Spot but was a sucky anti-SD build, so I could cover up the login metagaming without having to take a kicking in the process.

I have no idea why that is making me laugh so hard, oddly it sounds like something you'd do for a day as well, but more just for shits and giggles, not to be grievous.

I seriously think people are over reacting here. If PP is limited to gold only then what's the problem? If robbery and theft is all done on the basis of RP agreement it will end up being something along the lines of;

Thief: Rolls pickpocket... wins
Target:Rolls spot...fails *Loses bag of gold*(emote only, no gold handed over)
Thief: //I won, you're pickpocketed.
Target: //I know, I gave you a bag of gold
Thief: //no you didn't
Target: //don't ignore my RP, that's against the rules.
Thief: //But you're ignoring mine after you failed a spot check.
Target: //Pff... you're a crap RPer.
Thief:*thinks* This is stupid, I want a rebuild.

If the issue is that you cannot loot a corpse, then why not give everyone a 'loot' widgit that gives you a PP attempt against a dead person even if you have no PP ranks. That solves the problem doesn't it?

Uce demonstrates why skills in cheating and abusing others are necessary for devs and DMs. We need to be able to think as many ways to exploit, deceive, cheat, lie, abuse etc etc as possible to be able to find counters for them.

Sadly, there's only one group of players yet more cunning in finding those exploits: the people who will actually use them, too.

well, in my opinion it is not necessary to be radical to the point of eliminating a class ability. Rogues should be able to steal. Gold is easy to collect in Amia? Yes, it is. So, why to come with it from thin air? It could come from our pockets and it should not be just 50 gp. The value of the looted gold could follow the level of the person being robbed. A lvl 30 for example throws 10k in the trash all the time with many silly things, he could lose 10k for a rogue.

Now, I also agree with the people saying give the rogue xp. Maybe 150 xp per successful pp.

If ever possible maybe the things inside the bags shouldn't be stolen, but the things in the inventory that are small could. But, honestly I would leave player's object out of it.

I could never afford an Ioun stone in any of my characters. I do not grind much after level 30. Therefore, my character carry usually around 1 million gold. So, say I finally get a hold of one and give the person half of all my money. I am all happy with my new item and a freaking rogue come and take my stone away after 3 minutes of buying it. I think it would be at least disturbing for me. Knowing me I would get a bit mad and all and I may even log off angry and not to come back that day. I would probably not to buy anymore Ioun stones, ever. Because it would take me back to grinding and grinding and I already grind enough while leveling. After it I rather stay doing other things.

Even worse, the system you tell you were robbed by such but you didnt see it. So, you as Tormak say cannot even hunt him down and kill him winning your Ioun back. And if even I do, since I am not a powerbuilder I will lose the battle and probably get stolen again. Or if I win I cannot even make you give it back.

What happens then, we all will need rebuild. I will want to add spot to all my characters. I will want to powerbuild them to be able to kill any rogue. I will want builds that will be able to kill shadowdancers for all my characters. Because it is only fair that if I am going to lose something significant that I could add to my characters the skill points necessary. Since it will screw the build, I want a total rebuild.

I want to add loads of points to my bard listening as well. So yeah, besides one character I want rebuild for all: Alynne, Delarwyn, Lisselle, Arielle and Elrid. That is because the other 3 are lower levels and I can still fix it.

See the complication of that?

We can accept you rogues, stealing gold and earning xp, but I cannot accept small items, because some of the small items are just powerful, collectibles, and some of it worth several millions gold. If they are able to do it. I want tools to be created that can give equal chance at least to preserve that items.

If the things stolen were generated by the system. Well, lets think. You craft a jewel, you mythal it into a powerful item. You used gold and mythal (not easy to find cause I sometimes get one per week sometimes not) sometimes three greater mythals. then we are all happy and that crafted, worked on jewel still having the yellow marks of "job system" in it will be stolen by a rogue.

Well, then to play in the safe side, I want all my characters to be rogue and in spite of farming bosses, I will farm players. And I will do what Ruce said, I know exactly the people that dont have spot, I know them because they cannot see my shadowdancers and some of them cannot even see Del hiding.

I could so be a bad friend and go there and take the valuables from them, making them all hate me to the guts. But, who cares, it is their problem, I am not here to make friends, I want rogue skills!!!!

*sighs* It is complicated, it will cause pain for all DMs and players, it will cause OOC grief, people quitting over an anger attack.

I would love to have someone looting my dead body for a raise scroll when I am dead. I wouldnt mind someone pickpocketing some of my gold before raising me just because heck he is a rogue. But, I wouldnt take it so nicely if someone that is in my hunt party is able to take my valuable item just because he is a rogue.

However, someone stole a diamond once, I didnt care it was a friend and we made jokes over freaking stealing friends and such.. but, nothing biggie, But, how to control what will drop? Impossible right? well, then it is not fair.

--- And yes, in essence, I only discovered they could steal objects after this topic. And, I think it so unfair that is making me grumpy. Thank the Gods of Faerun, no one have stolen me yet.

I still think the old adage of 'it's a hard knock life' should ring true here. For an Ioun stone... I reckon that's the kind of thing you would hide in a POW camp style. Or keep it in your underwear or something.

There must be a way to mark them so they cannot be stolen like that? Gold, steal away, and small items... personally I think they should be fair game as well but it seems that most people don't agree.

Unless of course we all get the 'loot a corpse' widgit that performs a single PP against a dead person.

I got dozens of small items of no real worth but deep sentimental value, with a lot of rp to them. None should be able to take those.

PP is griefing, and anyone pping a item and not giving it back would be reported by me accordingly.

Zante wrote:

PP is griefing

No it is not. :roll:

The Incognitos wrote:

I still think the old adage of 'it's a hard knock life' should ring true here. For an Ioun stone... I reckon that's the kind of thing you would hide in a POW camp style. Or keep it in your underwear or something.

There must be a way to mark them so they cannot be stolen like that? Gold, steal away, and small items... personally I think they should be fair game as well but it seems that most people don't agree.

Unless of course we all get the 'loot a corpse' widgit that performs a single PP against a dead person.

Prob I see with that is that a PP widget would really just let you PP right back, which kinda doesn't address the issue of how you can get your item back from a captured/killed thief.

Pick-pocketing itself isn't bad. It's just it's stupid that there's no way to get your stolen item back after busting open the thief's skull.

Add the pickpocket function to some widget. Then add a 100% success rate to retrieve any of your stolen items from the thief if you kill and loot him. If he returns them voluntarily there will be no need for a script, if you can't kill him, tough luck. Keep items you treasure in a bank account, or ask to have them plot'ed.

Poor Disco.

Zante wrote:

I got dozens of small items of no real worth but deep sentimental value, with a lot of rp to them. None should be able to take those.

PP is griefing, and anyone pping a item and not giving it back would be reported by me accordingly.

PP is in fact, not griefing, and as already stated earlier, they aren't obliged to give the item back to you. Truth be told, I'm the sort of person that would likely return the item if the other person was nice about it OOCly, and just pretend my character snatched some gold instead, but if they were an ass and demanded their item back with a threat of reporting or something of the sort, I'd likely just trash it.

No, I'm not nice.

Jan wrote:

Add the pickpocket function to some widget. Then add a 100% success rate to retrieve any of your stolen items from the thief if you kill and loot him.

Now this, is actually a fucking brilliant idea, but I imagine something not too easy to script, and if it were possible, would the item be recognized as the previous character's item still after a reset?

Nuking PP and rebuilding anyone with ranks in the skill who still actually plays that character is a one-off expenditure of time and effort.

The fact is anything a Pickpocket widget can do to an unwilling participant, two willing players who are roleplaying can do using the Trade window, and they can do it better.

Widgets are supposed to make it easier for people to do things that would usually take a lot of time but they would want to do anyway. At the moment, the PP widget does not have that 'would want to do' criteria satisfied.

Anyone who has got to sufficient level with a character to put a decent number of points into the PP skill, already has enough Job Points to spend on a selection of Jobs that will net them far more XP and GP than they would with PP. Hell, you can hunt Swamp Gators and take their hides for a better payoff. Why then would anyone seek to create or continue to use a character whose abilities will get them a lot of OOC bother? Do they enjoy being ostracised by other players or something?

Well, Terra and I are taking a quick look and the propable outcome is that I simply set all items in your inventory to non-pickpocketable. We remove the PP penalty and issue some widget. Standard gold income from PP seems to be somewhere between 20-40 GP, and I doubt anybody will suffer a lot from that. What I do is simple: make the PP widget give more GP and a bit of XP and a chance of a random funny item generated by the game.

I wasn't even aware of any PP abuse, where'd this witch hunt come from all of sudden? The thread's a day old. How about letting more people say something?

O, I never liked the current system at all. This is just a good prod to deal with it once and for all.

the abuse comes from one the fact that items people value, weather for sentimental value or power value are removed. For example the fact ioun stone can be removed makes PP abusive and it makes pickpockets greifers. also do not forget that losing a single gold coin is abusive too. Pickpocket is also absuive because you can not get your items back. so all in it is a griefers fun tool.

and in case anyone did not know that was sarcasm.

The old system has been broken for years, and has been on the list of "stuff to fix in the unseen future". I don't think it ever got fixed beyond making smaller the stupid DM channel messages, that got DMs howling in blind rage if someone PP'd a few times in a row.

Maybe I've never been PP'd by a 30th level rogue with 100 points in the skill, but I'm not aware of ever having lost more than about 15 gp to a PP attempt, which is frankly so laughable that I would never waste points on the skill.

I would be quite fine with having it restricted to gold, with some sort of cap based on level or level difference and die roll vs DC or some such. But I have no problem whatsoever with taking a max of several 100 gp from an epic player. Even restrict a player to one attempt per victim per reset so there's no 'spamming'.

It's relatively harmless, it encourages people to watch their pockets RPly, and it gives at least some reward to the person who's bothered to invest in the skill. Of course, I reserve the right to raise a hue and cry if I detect you and denounce you to the guards...

I still don't see why it is broken, I just don't. "They can take my stuff!" doesn't count.
As long as pre-epic characters can make 100k+ from a frost giant run any change which gives pickpockets some crap gold, XP and/or vanilla items from the +2 bin will be a change to the worse.
It benefits nobody except the whiners which the staff refers to ever so often as wasting their time.

Jan wrote:

I still don't see why it is broken, I just don't. "They can take my stuff!" doesn't count.
As long as pre-epic characters can make 100k+ from a frost giant run any change which gives pickpockets some crap gold, XP and/or vanilla items from the +2 bin it'll be a change to the worse.
It benefits nobody except the whiners which the staff refers to ever so often as wasting their time.

...

TormakSaber wrote:

They can (steal items). And they're never obligated to give them back. Ever. Even if you kill them. Repeatedly. In the face.

TormakSaber wrote:

Gold is still in my inventory.

Pickpocket gives you access to my money and thus my inventory.

TormakSaber wrote:

This is what pickpocket does, at its most basic., It allows you to take other character's and player's gold and items without their consent, without their permission, anytime you'd like, with no chance for REAL retribution. Dying IC is nothing. Why? Because you still got their stuff.

I cannot ever get this back from you, outside your OOC good grace, because unliker you, I am not allowed to see your inventory.

TormakSaber wrote:

It IS unfair. If you pickpocket anything from my inventory, it is gone. I can't get it back. Ever. Ever ever ever. Unless you decide to be nice OOC and give it back. If joe schmuck level 3 logs in, pickpockets whatever, and logs off and never comes backj, that item is gone. Why? Because you had one way access to my inventory, without my permission, to take whatever the system would give you, and I have no wya of getting it back except by your permission.

This is a one way road and it doesn't work.

WonWon wrote:

Anything that gives any, even slim, access to another person's inventory without thusly opening themselves up to the same is indeed an unfair advantage.

Make the PP widget work on NPCs with a randomly determined result (based on NPC Hit Die against your own PP Skill), with the whole Risk situation (Gain or Lose XP, etc)

Either that, or we institute a system that lets any individual rob a corpse - in which case I reserve the right, as any of my powerbuild (spot possessing) PCs, to kill you, take -everything- you have, and leave you for dead.

One-way theft without chance of effective recourse is bad, no matter how minor or major you want to make it.

To my understanding so far, it's all about access.

That's a lot of Tormak quotes. Of course he can have his own opinion but I disagree with this one.
He hasn't given any reason why nobody ever should be able to touch anything in his inventory except "I don't like it!" and "I can't get it back!"
The first one may be so, the latter can be fixed without making thief RP a useless orgy of crap gold farming limited to NPCs.

Hm. Isn't that the very nature of pickpocketing, though? That people take things from you without your knowledge? In this game, they are more likely than not to get caught at which point you can deal with them as you will...in the face.

In the end, it's not real stuff anyways. It's like when I drop a pumped up Glittering Ice and it disappears from the ground. I'll never get it back even if I ask the dms because there aren't any screenshots of this unexpected event. And you know what? I lived. It's just stuff and time.

In the end, pickpocket never works anyways, so if it does work, kudos to the player who won that lottery.

New (?) pickpocket rules

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