SD route bags you Epic Dodge, an effective +5 AC all day long and SD's get Uncanny Dodge, too.
Better than 5AC. Even 100AC is going to get beaten by the holy natural 20, but Epic Dodge tosses it away. That lowers the odds of a strike getting through whored up AC from 5% to 0.25%.
Trufax.
Aniril - Ranger and Bow-using don't have much correlation outside of RP. You would be able to use some pretty sick bows just having Rogue/Assassin levels and UMD - that or Arcane Archer levels, but I doubt you're looking into that.
Honestly, I had always wondered what a build would look like with high Hide, Move Silently, Spot and Listen that was an Arcane Archer with retardedly-high Death Arrow DC. Basically, a one-shot, one-kill style sniper. *shrug*
Joined: 17 Dec 2008 Location: Somewhere between where i was and where im going.
Okay, first of, im horrible with builds... I usually have a rough storyline for a character but i can never solidify the build for them. My Cleric is probably my most salvageable.
Currently:
Elf, Cleric
Level 15
Str: 14
Dex: 10
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 19
Cha: 10
Feats:
Cleave
Combat Casting
Extra Turning
Great Cleave
Power Attack
Exotic weapons
Im working her to a Necro hunter type character, so PvP and PvM balance (ish). Any suggestions for how to build her, cause im not sure where to go from here.
_________________ So long and thanks for all the fish.
-Immediately- delevel to one experience point below 15. Two possibilities spring to mind... there are probably better builds, but either of these would be a decent melee cleric.
(Also, you should probably start saving skill points for Discipline or putting them into Tumble cross-class.)
EDIT: What I would probably recommend doing skill-wise is stop putting points into Heal and Lore. From levels 15 to 30 put one point into Concentration, one point into Spellcraft, and save the other two for a Discipline dump.
Getting Epic Dragon Knight
Put your level 24 ability raise into Wisdom, and your level 16, 20, and 28 ability raises into Strength.
You have a free feat at level 30. Off the top of my head I'd recommend Greater Ruin, or maybe Great Strength. (If you could somehow get your Discipline to 33, epic skill focus discipline wouldn't be bad either.)
In this version, put all your ability increases (level 16, 20, 24, 28) into Strength, not into Wisdom. You'll use a cleric bonus feat to get Wisdom 20.
You have free feats at 27 and 30. I'm not sure what to do with them, but Greater Ruin, Epic Skill Focus Discipline (only if you get your Discipline high enugh to matter), or Epic Fortitude seem to make sense.
Crippling Strike on a WM (high STR, no dev-crit, x4 multiplier), redundant?
Crippling strength on a High-AB build is never redundant. UMD + Blind-Fight + Darkvision = Every hit drops their AB, Damage, Discipline, and if they have it, Dev DC.
Ah, I see, ok then. I cooked up something that had 26 base STR at x4 crit and 5d6 sneak, so I figured opponent would be dead already before crippling even affected the fight. Never really used it before though, so... thanks for the tip.
Crippling Strike on a WM (high STR, no dev-crit, x4 multiplier), redundant?
Crippling strength on a High-AB build is never redundant. UMD + Blind-Fight + Darkvision = Every hit drops their AB, Damage, Discipline, and if they have it, Dev DC.
It's nice to have, yes. But on a STR build, which is already doing a good deal of damage per hit, how much more could the STR damage do if you're already hitting him?
It's only really good if you're outmatched (str-based with an AC that you can't break through), I think. Land the first licks in as he is still flat-footed, and maybe you could get out of the fight alive.
Oh, and it's nice to have for the bare knuckle fights!
All in all, it sure can't hurt. It's better used for dual-weilding dex sneakers though, IMO.
Okay, first of, im horrible with builds... I usually have a rough storyline for a character but i can never solidify the build for them. My Cleric is probably my most salvageable.
Feats: Cleave Combat Casting Extra Turning Great Cleave Power Attack Exotic weapons
Without Divine Might/Shield(which you don't have the CHA for anyway) you have no real use of Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave. They're nice enough feats, but you have better things to worry about.
Extra Turning is likewise not worth the feat. It's an okay choice for Divine Might/Shielder.
Combat Casting is pretty dubious unless you're going to take the Improved version in epic.
You don't have Extend or Maximise Spell, which is barking mad crazy talk for a primary caster.
So....the bad news is you're better off getting heavily delevelled. Certainly until you can get Extend'n'Maximise Spell and Spell Focus/Greater Focus Conjuration.
Conjuration isn't just for the EDK, it's also Mass Heal's school, so you'll get a healthy DC for that; very bad news for undeads.
In addition to Ruce's bit about mass heal, consider taking silent spell. Since UEF nerf, lvl9 cleric spell slots aren't that much fun to mess with aside from the occasional SoV (nice with ESF: Conjuration) and Gate (if you take enough cleric levels). But silent spell lets you swamp those spell slots with moar mass heals, truly a boon for an undead hunter.
Without Divine Might/Shield(which you don't have the CHA for anyway) you have no real use of Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave. They're nice enough feats, but you have better things to worry about.
Extra Turning is likewise not worth the feat. It's an okay choice for Divine Might/Shielder.
Combat Casting is pretty dubious unless you're going to take the Improved version in epic.
You don't have Extend or Maximise Spell, which is barking mad crazy talk for a primary caster.
So....the bad news is you're better off getting heavily delevelled. Certainly until you can get Extend'n'Maximise Spell and Spell Focus/Greater Focus Conjuration.
Conjuration isn't just for the EDK, it's also Mass Heal's school, so you'll get a healthy DC for that; very bad news for undeads.
Having spoken to the player, they're extremely loathe to re-level. How's this for an alternate vesion, assuming all the pre-epic feats other than great cleave and one other are fixed?
(It loses one of Armor Skin, Blindfight, or Extend Spell. The below version keeps Armor Skin and Extend.)
A problem is that taking Epic Specialization in early epic messes up the Discipline dump, but going cleric doesn't give you turn/level EDK until level 27 at the earliest. I think it would probably best from an end-game standpoint to take Fighter 4 at level 30 and the last Cleric level at 29, but that would make you wait a long time to get your best features.
It works a teensy bit better than Ultravision does, in that when you're inside the radius, you can see things without Tabbing. In terms of combat once you've clicked and are swinging away, it does exactly nothing; you still bite the 50% miss chance, or sorta-25% if you have Blindfight.
Regarding the Cleric, I'd want Extend Spell earlier than 30. Extended Divine Favour is better than EWS, after all.
Ok, my Cleric plans didn't work out at all, either combat or cleric. I still want to make a caster and was thinking of a Gnome Illusionist/Shadow Dancer. The build would ideally go 20 wizard/10 shadow dancer but I'm stuck on what feats to take, particularly in the meta-magic department.
I know Extend is usually a staple but, considering that I plan on using the Illusion school to the exclusion of almost all others, I was wondering if this would be such a great idea. Perhaps Silent Spell and Maximize Spell? Or just pushing as much as I can into Spell penetration to up the DC of illusion spells.
The other key question is how effective the Shadow Variants of spells available through Shades, Shadow Conjuration and Greater Shadow Conjuration are. Are there Book of Transmutation pages available to render these spells more effective?
I will mess around with the character creator a bit and see what I come up with, some input would be appreciated as I have been looking for a caster and I really like this character concept. An engineer emigrant to Shadowscape was then plan.
_________________ Jess Incognito:- Ah, but the phoenix may fly only when its feathers are grown...
Seriously though, is there any point making an Illusionist character at all? I know the levels selected make Epic Spells impossible but I want to make a Dual Class wizard that isn't a Pale Master or an Elf.
I could go for 6 or 7 levels of Shadow Dancer to bag an Epic Spell or two but then I wouldn't get the rank of Master Shadowdancer or the 10 Shadow Jumps. Seeing as I wanted to try for 'creating' a spell like Mirror Image or something else that makes clone images of oneself I thought a mass of Shadow Jumps and some good skills with a crossbow or short bow would help.
Not exactly a tough build but a fun one i hope.
_________________ Jess Incognito:- Ah, but the phoenix may fly only when its feathers are grown...
Sure, there are great spells like Mass blindless/deafness, Weird and Colour spray, all Illusion. I would still go 29 wizard/ 1 SD. I can't honestly understand what you need those 10 SD levels for, power-wise they have zero use, but hey, you can still be an SD with only a single level of it.
what about 4 to 6 levels of shadow dancer? Shadow Jump adds a real flavor to it and I would have to re-skin Mummy Dust into a Shadow. So what about 26 wizard/4 SD? How could I make use of that and still maximize my casting? The use of Shades, Shadow Conjuration and Greater Shadow Conjuration remains an issue, can they be used for anything other then a crap summons?
_________________ Jess Incognito:- Ah, but the phoenix may fly only when its feathers are grown...
If not for the summon shadow choice of Shades and greater shadow conjuration, I wouldn't even take a glance at them. Shadow conjuration's mage armor option is top notch; alternate castings with regular mage armor stack up the dodge bonuses, although only 1 per alternate casting. Don't know if it works on Amia though.
Never tried the "Shadow of the Void" from the Shades spell but it sounds cool and you can get it on Wiz26/SD4. The SD levels don't help much but I don't think they are murderous and will turn your PC into crap either despite 29/1 being better from a power standpoint. With 26 well built wizard levels you aren't going to be a wet noodle out there. If you like the idea go for it.
_________________ Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder
@Incognitos:
Wizard 27/Rogue 2/Ranger 1 is mentioned once in a while. (Ranger 1 for a free epic spell focues.) That build gets a ton of feats pre-epic and epic, a ton of skill points and access to all skills but perform, I think. Plus more. It comes in Cheddar, Gouda and even Gorgonzola flavour!
It's definitely a nice Wizard 27, so you will be powerful no matter what you do, and it can be as illusionary as you want it to be.
If you want the RP flavour of having a few tricks up your sleeves, that the shadow conjurations give, just take Craft Wand. Much more versatile and even useful. Heck, you'll most likely be rich enough to waste a scroll of Timestop whenever you really want to "shadowjump". ;)
Hello, I had a concept in mind for a 'holy' warrior type of character. Deity will likely be Helm.
Anyway, I was fascinated by taking as much CoT as possible, eg. fighter 10/ CoT 20, for high saves, silly divine wrath and the coolness factor. I tested it, but wasn't sure how to divide the stats, especially between STR and CHA. What about the INT for the combat feats (read: imp. knockdown )?. He'd get tons of feats pre-epic but only few in epic levels.
Perhaps replacing some fighter or CoT levels with cleric, or maybe even rogue? Paladin doesn't fit him.
I know Extend is usually a staple but, considering that I plan on using the Illusion school to the exclusion of almost all others, I was wondering if this would be such a great idea.
Extend is the single most important metamagic feat in the game, basically because of (Mass) Haste.
Crippling Strike on a WM (high STR, no dev-crit, x4 multiplier), redundant?
Crippling strength on a High-AB build is never redundant. UMD + Blind-Fight + Darkvision = Every hit drops their AB, Damage, Discipline, and if they have it, Dev DC.
It's nice to have, yes. But on a STR build, which is already doing a good deal of damage per hit, how much more could the STR damage do if you're already hitting him?
It's only really good if you're outmatched (str-based with an AC that you can't break through), I think. Land the first licks in as he is still flat-footed, and maybe you could get out of the fight alive.
Oh, and it's nice to have for the bare knuckle fights!
All in all, it sure can't hurt. It's better used for dual-weilding dex sneakers though, IMO.
I was looking at it in more of a party-PvM and party-PvP standpoint. When it boils down to it, if you're dropping someone's AB/Damage/Dev DC/Discipline every time you hit them, even if you only hit them once every two rounds, will significantly tilt the fight in your favor. Each hit.
Ah Ha! Made a cool Gnome Wizard/SD! Ends up as a 23/7 split of levels and gets Epic Spell Focus Illusion, Epic Skill Focus Hide, Epic Skill Focus Move Silently AND two Epic Spells!
Add maxed out Tumble, Hide, MS, Concentration, Spellcraft and Listen, plus a few points in Lore and Crafting. Ends up as a pretty cool customer with a nice balance of cool stuff and RP radness.
One last question however; is it worth putting the feats into Point Blank Shot and Rapid reload or should I try for Weapon Finesse and either Exotic Weapons(for Kukri) or Toughness(to Amp up those HP). Considering I will have a never ending supply of Shadows and some Maximized Offensive Spells I was thinking that the crossbow would be the best option. Any ideas folks.
N.B.: Maximize and Extend ARE the most important meta-magic feats. Craft Wand and Potion will make you rich!
_________________ Jess Incognito:- Ah, but the phoenix may fly only when its feathers are grown...
Hello, I had a concept in mind for a 'holy' warrior type of character. Deity will likely be Helm.
Anyway, I was fascinated by taking as much CoT as possible, eg. fighter 10/ CoT 20, for high saves, silly divine wrath and the coolness factor. I tested it, but wasn't sure how to divide the stats, especially between STR and CHA. What about the INT for the combat feats (read: imp. knockdown )?. He'd get tons of feats pre-epic but only few in epic levels.
Perhaps replacing some fighter or CoT levels with cleric, or maybe even rogue? Paladin doesn't fit him.
High spot would be awesome, too.
Feats and stats, suggestions?
I have a couple of characters like that 10 Fighter/20 CoT, it's a great solid fighter that doesn't need any maintenance (doesn't need much in terms of gear, and still take on Dev Critters). I didn't bother putting in any points in to my Charisma however; instead, I had a Weapon Master stats (18 Str 13 Dex 12 Con 13 Int) going for Dev Crit.
Feat wise... I think my char took the saves raising feats, improved expertise, improved knockdown, toughness, blind fight, great cleave, spring attack. You can afford to make an error or two in feat selection. :p
What I can say is that if you're not taking Paladin or Cleric for divine might/shield, you should aim for Dev Crit. Which limits your Cha to 14. If you do go for the divine might/shield route, you would be fine with a level 30 STR of 16 and CHA 18.
Hello, I had a concept in mind for a 'holy' warrior type of character. Deity will likely be Helm.
Anyway, I was fascinated by taking as much CoT as possible, eg. fighter 10/ CoT 20, for high saves, silly divine wrath and the coolness factor. I tested it, but wasn't sure how to divide the stats, especially between STR and CHA. What about the INT for the combat feats (read: imp. knockdown )?. He'd get tons of feats pre-epic but only few in epic levels.
Perhaps replacing some fighter or CoT levels with cleric, or maybe even rogue? Paladin doesn't fit him.
High spot would be awesome, too.
Feats and stats, suggestions?
I have a couple of characters like that 10 Fighter/20 CoT, it's a great solid fighter that doesn't need any maintenance (doesn't need much in terms of gear, and still take on Dev Critters). I didn't bother putting in any points in to my Charisma however; instead, I had a Weapon Master stats (18 Str 13 Dex 12 Con 13 Int) going for Dev Crit.
Feat wise... I think my char took the saves raising feats, improved expertise, improved knockdown, toughness, blind fight, great cleave, spring attack. You can afford to make an error or two in feat selection. :p
What I can say is that if you're not taking Paladin or Cleric for divine might/shield, you should aim for Dev Crit. Which limits your Cha to 14. If you do go for the divine might/shield route, you would be fine with a level 30 STR of 16 and CHA 18.
Or get Dev Crit and Divine Might/Shield. That works, too.
Gnome Wizard/SD! Ends up as a 23/7 split of levels
...
One last question however; is it worth putting the feats into Point Blank Shot and Rapid reload or should I try for Weapon Finesse and either Exotic Weapons(for Kukri) or Toughness(to Amp up those HP).
You shouldn't expect to do any significant damage with your equipped weapons on a mage. The closest you get is a Sorc/BG who takes Divine Might for a giggle when farming lowbie stuff for Mythal/wand/scrolls, but it's not a viable plan for proper work.
What melee does for a AC mage is keep them out of flatfoot, so they can sit and surf 20's at 60+AC until the real killers finish what they're doing.
Don't take any feats for offensive combat. They aren't going to be worth the loss of metamagics.
Gnome Wizard/SD! Ends up as a 23/7 split of levels
...
One last question however; is it worth putting the feats into Point Blank Shot and Rapid reload or should I try for Weapon Finesse and either Exotic Weapons(for Kukri) or Toughness(to Amp up those HP).
You shouldn't expect to do any significant damage with your equipped weapons on a mage. The closest you get is a Sorc/BG who takes Divine Might for a giggle when farming lowbie stuff for Mythal/wand/scrolls, but it's not a viable plan for proper work.
What melee does for a AC mage is keep them out of flatfoot, so they can sit and surf 20's at 60+AC until the real killers finish what they're doing.
Don't take any feats for offensive combat. They aren't going to be worth the loss of metamagics.
Hmmm... bugger. Leaves me a wee bit out in the cold there on the pre-Epic feats. It is worth pushing them into Silent Spells and such? I was thinking of taking Point Blank Shot and Martial Weapons just for the skill and ability bonuses on some of the Shadow Dancer gear. And those Shadow Dancer Arrows should allow me to do at least a little bit of damage shouldn't they?
If I do take Point Blank and Martial Weapons I can still get a significant amount of meta-magic feats; Maximize, Extend, Craft Wand and Craft Potion (Is it worth dropping one (or both) of the crafting feats to get Quicken Spell and/or Silent Spell?).
One of the reasons I ask this is that I will be jamming most of my equipment slots with bonus spell slot gear due to a relatively low base Intelligence. This is also why I will be using Illusion almost exclusivly, the Epic Focus Illusion will have to make up the difference in offensive spell DCs. It would be nice to tack on a wee bit more Hide and Move Silently with a bow.
NB: Are almost all the high level monsters immune to Illusion Spells? It seems that Illusionists got an unintentional(?) nerf when a huge ammount of monsters were given See Invisibility and True Seeing (Unless none have the (Bioware) True Seeing that negates Illusions?
_________________ Jess Incognito:- Ah, but the phoenix may fly only when its feathers are grown...
I reckon that may have something to do with gnomes being quite rare also. Illusion is, from a Lore perspective, the mainstay of any gnome caster and there seems to be very little that can be done with it.
Is Weird the only Illusion spell in the Book of Transmutation? If so I think this says a fair bit in itself.
NB: Still wondering if the bonuses to skills and stats found on SD bows and arrows justify using two pre-Epic feats. From a charter development perspective I quite like this idea. The Martial Weapon proficiency also opens access to a few other stat. boosting items.
_________________ Jess Incognito:- Ah, but the phoenix may fly only when its feathers are grown...
As I said before: Colour spray, Weird and Mass blindness/deafness are great Illusion spells. I'd drop the dreams about being a capable marksman, though.
Ah Ha! Made a cool Gnome Wizard/SD! Ends up as a 23/7 split of levels and gets Epic Spell Focus Illusion, Epic Skill Focus Hide, Epic Skill Focus Move Silently AND two Epic Spells!
*counts epic skills* ... 5?
Wizard 18/ SD 2 pre-epic (for saves) and then Wizard 20 gives you an additional epic feat.
I wouldn't put base DEX higher than 14. Base INT will be more important to you and DEX only affects your stealth, AC and AB because you don't have the other DEX-based rogue skills. AC will come from Epic Mage Armour (or you're a face tanker), AB will be bad even with true strike, and stealth you can get cheaper with a pre-epic feat Stealthy (that's +4 DEX), if you want that.
I would also consider Wizard 23/SD 6/Rogue 1. The rogue in epic can give you UMD, which means more gear choices and more tricks. It also gives you the rogue-weapons which include shortbow (you cannot use a longbow as a gnome), shortsword and rapier. SD 7 also means more gear (from the shop), but that Rogue level gives you a lot of flexibility.
Here's food for thought: Wizard 23/SD 6/Rogue 1
Possible starting stats: (gnome in brackets)
str 10 (8) (ugggh. buff until you can afford endless bags of holding)
dex 12
con 14 (16)
wis 10
int 18 --> 25, 26 with great INT 1.
cha 8
Skills: About max skills 7. Hide, Move, Conc, Spell, Tumble, Listen, UMD, and couple of other points probably.
Feats in epic: 4 normal, 2 wizard
epic skill focus hide, move
epic spell focus illusion
epic spell I (EMA?)
epic spell II (Hellball for show?)
Great INT 1
SD 7 also gives Slippery Mind; a bacon saver. Epic Spells would be either Mummy Dust re-skinned as a Shadow or EDK-Shadow Dragon (To be honest this depends on Dream Coin costs), Greater Ruin and I think EMA. Also, I didn't expect him to be a good archer at all it's more the feel of the character then actual power.
_________________ Jess Incognito:- Ah, but the phoenix may fly only when its feathers are grown...
UMD is a lot better then slippery mind, slippery mind sounds decent, but as a wizard you'd do better to have mind blank up. The gear that UMD gives you access to would make it worth it in a lot of cases.
getting spell penetration would be a good idea as well, given your low caster levels, fighting something with high SR would be tough, if not impossible. Even having greater spell penetration would help.
Also, passing up empowered spell would be a bad idea, it opens up a lot more spell choices.
Epic Spells? I find greater ruin is a lot cleaner then hell ball, and more effective. EMA if you'd like, but even without Necro focus Mummy dust has a fair duration and could be useful for an epic summon (if he's into that kind of thing in a RP sense). I find AC can be a little lacking on a mage anyways, and unless you focus on a build dedicated to having high AC, chances are, EMA won't save you from much.
_________________ I sleep with the Libris Mortis under my pillow.
---Carstina Blackweave--- Speaker of Tarkuul Headmistress of the Magisterium Mortis
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Location: Down South and Bent Edge
Xalyth wrote:
I find AC can be a little lacking on a mage anyways, and unless you focus on a build dedicated to having high AC, chances are, EMA won't save you from much.
From what i remember of my SD/Mage he had 58AC without expertise.
*Shrugs* Its enough to be rolling at 50 percent against an average top attack (where the average is 48) giving time needed to HiPS if catching flack. Throw in imp invisi your chances of catching that top attack are around 25 percent.
_________________ I play: Gage le Gris Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
getting spell penetration would be a good idea as well, given your low caster levels, fighting something with high SR would be tough, if not impossible. Even having greater spell penetration would help.
Dunno, my Wiz 24 hardly notices SR at all in PvM. (Or maybe the player doesn't notice?) The high saves on some things are a much bigger problem. And for bosses you want to cast Mord anyway. Does someone have solid data on the SR of mobs and want to share that?
In PvP things are totally different, I suppose. But that doesn't look like a very offensive PvP build to me, anyway. A combination of Hips, Mord, GS and some nasty damage spells from the distance might still work, though ...
For AC: That build should get 55 AC with buffed DEX (12->24), tumble, +5 boots, EMA and the usual spells, plus dodge and small size. Without EMA that drops down to maybe 45, depending on your equipment. (Flatfooted AC is bad. None of your classes give you shield proficiency, though, so this is about it unless you find a bard to take you to 60 AC.)
And, as MoshingCris said, it gives you a little time when something is running towards you unexpectedly. It may also deter mobs from running towards you in the first place.
Most of the reason I don't want Rouge is RP, but then I'm torn on that as well, a gnome SHOULD know how to use a range of magic devices. Decisions, decisions...
Have some fantastic custom spell ideas for this as well...need DCs!
As a side note; with the rouge level there is also the Sneak damage; with SD arrows that's possibly 4d6 per hit if the enemy is tied up with Summons and party members(?). That's not great but it's not pointless, more so with Haste. Worth bearing in mind that 'super smack down fast kill' will not necessarily be this characters M.O.. What was said about PvP for example... you wouldn't catch this one sitting still or nearby. The idea being to stay out of sight until they are at least partly used up. More fun.
_________________ Jess Incognito:- Ah, but the phoenix may fly only when its feathers are grown...
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