AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mark II

Does anyone remember the "Swashbuckler" class from 2nd Edition DnD? Yeah. I want to make one with NWN mechanics - preferably one with a decent skillset and still does good damage.

Fighter/Rogue sounds about right, with heavy focus on fighter in the lower levels to maximize AB. Dex-based, epic dodge, etc etc..? What do all of you think?

Rogue/Fighter/WM would be it i think, using a light weapon. Or, you could just go pure bard. Both works i think. For extra style points, take parry and taunt skill if you can spare them. And make sure your char has an extrodinary moustache.

Now for me: I dont know what three last pre-epic feats I should take for my dex based, dualwielding elf ranger. I got weapon finesse, weapon focus, blind fight and improved critical. So, for the last three feats, what would be good choices? Should i throw in power attack, cleave and gret cleave? Or give him some archery capabilities with point blank and rapid shot and toss in iron will for better saves? Or take skill focus in spot?

QPR wrote:

Now for me: I dont know what three last pre-epic feats I should take for my dex based, dualwielding elf ranger. I got weapon finesse, weapon focus, blind fight and improved critical. So, for the last three feats, what would be good choices? Should i throw in power attack, cleave and gret cleave? Or give him some archery capabilities with point blank and rapid shot and toss in iron will for better saves? Or take skill focus in spot?

Can you take improved knockdown? Toughness, skill focus discipline (if you're going epic skill focus discipline at epic), and better saves are nice to have as well.

Dodge is what I usually take if I have an extra feat and able to get it. I'm not so sure if it works as intended (+1 AC) or what though.

IKD and Toughness would be my choices. You don't need skill focus for epic skill focus, so it's pretty pointless unless you really want to max a skill.

Dodge works. That and Improved KD gets my nod.

Thx for the advices on monks Opus and Ruce.

So you both really think that on a DEX monk (if going 20m/5f/5sd)
some skill points, uncanny dodge and epic dodge
are worth more than (if going 20m/6Cot/4f):
extra HP, epic armor, epic prowness, and +7 fort and +10 reflex saves.

EDIT:
And what about say 21monk/6fighter/3rogue:
I dont have to wait until lvl 30 for mind blank
two extra epic feats (compared to sd-route)
uncanny dodge
no epic dodge though

I have questions about how human subraces work:

Does their extra feat replace the standard human bonus feat, or is it in addition? Do you have to take that feat at character creation, in order for the subrace to work properly?

Do they have an extra skill point per level like non-subrace humans?

additional features.

so you still get the extra feat and you get the bonus skillpoints as well.

belgianbonzai wrote:

additional features.

so you still get the extra feat and you get the bonus skillpoints as well.

Thanks!

So, everyone - I'm sure somebody out there has this figured out. A rest is 8 in-game hours. How many turns is that? Rounds?

Zifon wrote:

Thx for the advices on monks Opus and Ruce.

So you both really think that on a DEX monk (if going 20m/5f/5sd)
some skill points, uncanny dodge and epic dodge
are worth more than (if going 20m/6Cot/4f):
extra HP, epic armor, epic prowness, and +7 fort and +10 reflex saves.

Yes. Epic Dodge is that good.

Champion of Helm wrote:

So, everyone - I'm sure somebody out there has this figured out. A rest is 8 in-game hours. How many turns is that? Rounds?

8 game hours is 16 turns is 160 rounds.

So 32 Rounds is 3.2 turns, and thus, isn't even worth the time to cast it (pretty much)?

Cast it? I'll guess 'it' is a 2 rounds/level spell cast from BG16?

Uberuce wrote:

Cast it? I'll guess 'it' is a 2 rounds/level spell cast from BG16?

Yes. Summon Epic Fiendish Servant. It's two spawns length at the moment.. so doubled it's four.

Is it possible to take divine might at BG3 or do you have to wait until 4?

Possible.

StandingBehindYou wrote:

I have questions about how human subraces work:

Does their extra feat replace the standard human bonus feat, or is it in addition? Do you have to take that feat at character creation, in order for the subrace to work properly?

Do they have an extra skill point per level like non-subrace humans?

Also you lose human multiclass abilities.

StandingBehindYou wrote:

I have questions about how human subraces work:

Does their extra feat replace the standard human bonus feat, or is it in addition? Do you have to take that feat at character creation, in order for the subrace to work properly?

Do they have an extra skill point per level like non-subrace humans?

In addition, no, it's a free feat, and yes, extr skill point.

Human subraces = BEST THINGS EVER.

What is the highest Dev Crit DC a PC can get on Amia? I'm thinking a Bard/BG/RDD would have a fairly nasty effective DC, especially if they max'd strength.

Forty-three i think.

Champion of Helm wrote:

What is the highest Dev Crit DC a PC can get on Amia? I'm thinking a Bard/BG/RDD would have a fairly nasty effective DC, especially if they max'd strength.

23 bard/3 BG/4 RDD, I assume?

18 STR + 4 RDD + 7 levelups + 3 from feats = 32 prebuff, 44 STR after buffs. So 10 + 15 + 17 = DC 42 before BG which makes it effective 44 and then Curse Song for whatever more.

Add one point if you go Half Orc, I guess. Or Tuigan, but then you need to take 4 great STR, not 3.

TormakSaber wrote:

18 STR + 4 RDD + 7 levelups + 3 from feats = 32 prebuff, 44 STR after buffs. So 10 + 15 + 17 = DC 42 before BG which makes it effective 44 and then Curse Song for whatever more.

Throw in a barbarian drum's battletide and we have 48.

TormakSaber wrote:

Champion of Helm wrote:

What is the highest Dev Crit DC a PC can get on Amia? I'm thinking a Bard/BG/RDD would have a fairly nasty effective DC, especially if they max'd strength.

23 bard/3 BG/4 RDD, I assume?

18 STR + 4 RDD + 7 levelups + 3 from feats = 32 prebuff, 44 STR after buffs. So 10 + 15 + 17 = DC 42 before BG which makes it effective 44 and then Curse Song for whatever more.

Add one point if you go Half Orc, I guess. Or Tuigan, but then you need to take 4 great STR, not 3.

I definitely got Dev'd once by someone with a 46, i feel like it was maybe 30 barb? It was like last fall, but it was seriously badass when it happened. The RP after... well...

The highest you can get without RDD is 41DC. That's half-orc or wood elf starting at 20 STR, with Great STR III for 42STR buffed.

Same thing but with RDD gives you 46STR and 43DC.

Shapechanged into Balor, and with any maxed out combination of Aura of Vitality +4, Empowered Bull's STR +7, Blackguard Bull's STR +2-5, Blood Frenzy +2, you get 44DC. This trick means you are a greatsword Devver, but you can have 25STR and it won't matter since the Balor's STR overwrites it.

I think it's pretty silly to include the save-lowering tricks that themselves have a save to resist, but that still leaves Curse Song, Aura of Despair, Prayer and Battletide. You can be a Silenced chap to ignore Curse Song and have lots of SR to resist Battletide/Prayer, but Aura always gets through so you're taking between 2 and 7 drain to Fort.

Shameless brag: my Barb/BG chap maxes out at 56Fort, snark.

Another generalized question for all of you:

What is / are the most dammagecannony melee builds?

Damagecannon?

Weaponmaster. WM, WM, WM. I imagine a Barbarian/WM or a fighter WM with specs is your best bet, and if we're splashng the divine, then a paladin 19/fighter 4/WM 7, damage wise.

STR-base Rogue24/Ftr6, assuming the target is vulnerable to Sneaks at the time. I've got a double axer offline that's on 89.5 per hit unbuffed, 82.5 in the offhand. Crits are in the 160/130 kind of area.

For undead, it's probably the Divine Might Ranger21/Pally5/Ftr4 with Bless Weapon swingin' and that Dwarven Axe with +3 Positive Vs Undead. That looks like ~55/hit with little fuss.

For everything else, yus: Ftr4/WM7 tacked onto something else damagey.

Fighter 6 / WM 7 / Rogue 15 Strongheart Halfling with a Warhammer. Sound fair?

Why 6? Do 4. All you need for a Epic Speccer and it gets you coveted 16 rogue which you need to get the Crip Strike/Defensive Roll/Improved Evasion trio. I guess you could do without Defensive Roll if you're not going Epic Dodge though.

I mean, I guess I could.. I was going to do a strength-based rogue, honestly, but... I guess that could work?

how do I make a DwD most effective? I have one thats lvl 7 or 8... his con is 22 I think, str 15 or 16... 13 dex. has imp expertise. what do I do from here?

Monk/4 [Full BAB class here]/Rogue and two kamas takes the cake for me on sneakers. You won't deal as much as axes when critting but I think when you're pulling off sneak attacks at 9/10 attacks per round, the kamas might come off ahead if you go to a STR route with fighter EWS.

My dex-based 3 monk/10 Ranger/17 Rogue does roughly 50 damage per hit, unbuffed.

Paladin 20/COT 10 Great smite VIII would probably be the sickest Mr. 3-hits you can get especially if you get a crit off of a x3 weapon. XD

ticket wrote:

Either way, I'm sure you could squeeze in an epic spell or two with these classes and still slug it out with the best of them.

Messed around with 26 cleric/4 cot and found that it is indeed painful trying to squeeze as much feats in the build and still coming up short. You can't have it all I guess, either be a primary spell-slinger or fighter. (Not that you'd suck if you choose one or the other, clerics can still do both easily without breaking a sweat.)

I ended up with:
Cleric(26), Champion of Torm(4), Gold Dwarf
STR: 14 (16) [Levels 8 and 12]
DEX: 6
CON: 10
WIS: 18 (20) [Level 4 and Great Wisdom I]
INT: 10
CHA: 14 (18) [Levels 16, 20, 24, and 28]

Pre-epic Feats: 20 Cleric
Blind Fight
Weapon Proficiency Martial
Extend Spell
Power Attack
Divine Might
Divine Shield
Weapon Focus: Warhammer

Epic:
Cleric(21): Spell Focus: Evocation
Champion of Torm(1)
Cleric(22)
Cleric(23): Epic Spell: Dragon Knight, Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
Champion of Torm(2): Epic Weapon Focus: Warhammer
Champion of Torm(3)
Cleric(24): Maximize Spell
Cleric(25)
Champion of Torm(4): Great Wisdom I
Cleric(26): Epic Spell: Hellball, Epic Spell Focus: Evocation

Skills:
33 Concentration, 33 Spellcraft.
No Discipline :cry:

A caster build that ends up with still 52 AB fully buffed. Not bad, and you can sacrifice the weapon focus feats for a extra turning and armor skin I suppose, 49 AB isn't that bad.

If you want more of a fighter build, go 26 cleric/4 fighter (extra epic feat). You can drop one epic spell and gain weapon specialization and epic weapon specialization.

The final product would basically rely on the feat selection, so it's very interesting what others could come up.

Finally, the cleric belt at the Abyss would be perfect for this. Bonus 5 & 6 spell level slots and +1 dex.

I know I look like a twit, but could Uce and Opustus spell out the changes they meant to the initial stats? You lost me a bit.

EDIT: I'm an idiot... so help.

The Incognitos wrote:

ticket wrote:

Cleric(26), Champion of Torm(4), Gold Dwarf
STR: 14 (16) [Levels 8 and 12]
DEX: 6
CON: 10
WIS: 18 (20) [Level 4 and Great Wisdom I]
INT: 10
CHA: 14 (18) [Levels 16, 20, 24, and 28]

I know I look like a twit, but could Uce and Opustus spell out the changes they meant to the initial stats? You lost me a bit.

Change the stats into this: (Makes your dwarf a tad smarter and skillful.)
STR: 14 (16) [16, 20]*
DEX: 6
CON: 10
WIS: 16 (20) [4, 8, 12, Great Wisdom I]*
INT: 12
CHA: 16 (18) [24, 28]*

* Or however you wish to spread them on your level ups.

Edit:
Or maybe Uce meant this:
STR: 14
WIS: 16 (20) [4, 8, 12, Great Wisdom I]
CHA: 14 (18) [16, 20, 24, 28]

Which allows the dwarf to get Con 14 & Int 12, or CON 12 & Int 14, or... CON 12, INT 12, & DEX 8.

ticket wrote:

Edit:
Or maybe Uce meant this:
STR: 14
WIS: 16 (20) [4, 8, 12, Great Wisdom I]
CHA: 14 (18) [16, 20, 24, 28]

Which allows the dwarf to get Con 14 & Int 12, or CON 12 & Int 14, or... CON 12, INT 12, & DEX 8.

This, yus.

RE: Cannons. I'd forgotten all about the Monk/kama option, that is indeed always the route to full Sneakspammery. I can't stand the way kamas looks, so I'd not make one myself. Maybe I'd go Monk9/Ftr5/Rogue16 to get an okay unarmed damage and free Improved KD&Evasion.

Champ wrote:

I mean, I guess I could.. I was going to do a strength-based rogue, honestly, but... I guess that could work?

You're better to go dualwield than twohander when so much of your damage is per attack and independent of STRmod. Slap a couple of daggers on that sucker and you're good to go.

However, sad news is that the STR guy is only doing ~10 more damage/hit than the Epic Dodger, which is about 50% more when you're just getting hits and crits, but is kinda unexciting when you're Sneak Attacking. Also, kitting out a DEXer is soooo much easier than a STR-guy that it's almost funny. Freedom item with +3 of your primary stat? Yeah, sure you can have one. Oooh...looks like you're short on AC. So here's some +5 boots and robes, and we'll toss another +3DEX on the shoes too. Bah!

thanks team... my Cleric awaits...

blackvswhite wrote:

how do I make a DwD most effective? I have one thats lvl 7 or 8... his con is 22 I think, str 15 or 16... 13 dex. has imp expertise. what do I do from here?

I don't really think that a DwD with epic levels can be really effective in PvP. Still, the most effective non-buffer I have ever seen is a 7 fighter/ 5 WM/ 18 DwD or 8 fighter/ 7 WM/ 15 DwD. The latter deals a bit more damage and can go with a 3x without a worry, the first one bags a little more DR and sheer kewlness.

However, with either of these builds, you forget your AC completely. My DwD has 23 AC on level 30... but he also has 31 reduction against physical damage. It's just better to forget shield, so you can dish out more damage. Mainly the idea is to get a lot of regen, HP and DR and deal decent great critical strikes, alongside being nearly invincible in most PvM occasions. Abyss and Frozen Wastes still are pain in the arse thanks to the masses of elemental damage and high rate of criticals.

In solo PvP you might as well say your good byes asap. The only thing it is good in it, is staying alive. In Party PvP a DwD is a great help: most people try to kill it first, but as they realise it takes too long to be worth it, they move to other people. They just tend to forget that a DwD can dish out lovely damage, especially from behind, where they get the lovely AB boost.

I've pretty much come around to the opposite viewpoint, regarding AC at least in PvM.Yep, 38AC is crud at epic, but it still cuts off enough of the incoming flak from the bottom attacks that its worth your time having it, especially since +4AC is on so much stuff.

For PvP, yep, that really is hopeless.

I don't PvP much with any character so I'm not worried about it. I'll prob go with the 7 WM... what do you suggest for feats outside the req ones?

I wouldn't give up all that lovely Regen for a couple of silly AC points. Although, in a party with a mage or a bard, that AC would get bumped high enough to make it damn effective. If you just want to be the ultimate tank, of course you'll have loads of AC alongside a big juicy DR.

with imp expertise I have about 31 at lvl 7 or 8... its solid for that lvl, but it makes his attack suck. regular expertise is a reasonable balance. I love regen though. but should I go for more offensive feats or defensive ones? I mean outside any DR feats of course

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

I wouldn't give up all that lovely Regen for a couple of silly AC points. Although, in a party with a mage or a bard, that AC would get bumped high enough to make it damn effective. If you just want to be the ultimate tank, of course you'll have loads of AC alongside a big juicy DR.

Read: Kegs.

666 HP, 49AC unbuffed, 21 natural DR, +5/ Soak 5, 45 AB unbuffed. Would he get destroyed by some nancy dancer or finger wiggler in PvP? Sure. But there isnt anyone else you would rather have out there between you and the mobs.

blackvswhite wrote:

with imp expertise I have about 31 at lvl 7 or 8... its solid for that lvl, but it makes his attack suck. regular expertise is a reasonable balance. I love regen though. but should I go for more offensive feats or defensive ones? I mean outside any DR feats of course

Other feats that would be a must have is probably skill focus discipline & epic skill focus discipline. The DD would look pathetic if he's easily knocked down by a pixie dexer.

And if you are going WM, I think feat wise you'd already be set. But if you do have extra feats in there still... blind fight, toughness, and maybe a secondary two-handed weapon?

Maybe make him a detector too if you can afford it. You'll earn another badge in PvP especially in group fights just by being able to spot dancers, imo.

I have my own Dwarven Defender and all I could say is to go find the right balance of meaty HP (~700-800) and as much AB as you can squeeze in. Then really grind to get a good set of damage reduction, damage resistant, and regen gear, two crate of elemental shield, and a crate of heal pots.

// I never really tested this in Amia. Is the death shield potion better than the elemental shield?

Anyone have any experience with making a decent Rogue/SD/Assassin, with Epic Dodge?

ECL +1, already made the character and at third level. I've already taken, Dodge, Mobility and two-wep fighting.

Weapons will be Rapiers likely, unless i can find something with better Onhits, or just better quality in general.

I would like atleast ten SD levels, since you get both slippery mind and Imp Evasion free at seventh and tenth and for the availability of the tenth level SD items, though willing to compromise. Not sure how many Assassin levels would be best, though i'd guess ten for that too.

Maybe 7Rogue/10SD/12Assassin?

All help is appreciated.

2k8ste wrote:

Anyone have any experience with making a decent Rogue/SD/Assassin, with Epic Dodge?

ECL +1, already made the character and at third level. I've already taken, Dodge, Mobility and two-wep fighting.

Weapons will be Rapiers likely, unless i can find something with better Onhits, or just better quality in general.

I would like atleast ten SD levels, since you get both slippery mind and Imp Evasion free at seventh and tenth and for the availability of the tenth level SD items, though willing to compromise. Not sure how many Assassin levels would be best, though i'd guess ten for that too.

Maybe 7Rogue/10SD/12Assassin?

All help is appreciated.

Rogue 10/SD 10/Assassin 9; All assassin goodness less excellent Death Attack DCs, free rogue feat, and enough flexibility so you don't lose precious BAB.

Magnum Opera wrote:

2k8ste wrote:

Anyone have any experience with making a decent Rogue/SD/Assassin, with Epic Dodge?

ECL +1, already made the character and at third level. I've already taken, Dodge, Mobility and two-wep fighting.

Weapons will be Rapiers likely, unless i can find something with better Onhits, or just better quality in general.

I would like atleast ten SD levels, since you get both slippery mind and Imp Evasion free at seventh and tenth and for the availability of the tenth level SD items, though willing to compromise. Not sure how many Assassin levels would be best, though i'd guess ten for that too.

Maybe 7Rogue/10SD/12Assassin?

All help is appreciated.

Rogue 10/SD 10/Assassin 9; All assassin goodness less excellent Death Attack DCs, free rogue feat, and enough flexibility so you don't lose precious BAB.

And advice for ease of leveling, get 6 SD as soon as you can, HIPS can keep you alive long enough to raise party members in 90% of spawns.

you3507 wrote:

Magnum Opera wrote:

2k8ste wrote:

Anyone have any experience with making a decent Rogue/SD/Assassin, with Epic Dodge?

ECL +1, already made the character and at third level. I've already taken, Dodge, Mobility and two-wep fighting.

Weapons will be Rapiers likely, unless i can find something with better Onhits, or just better quality in general.

I would like atleast ten SD levels, since you get both slippery mind and Imp Evasion free at seventh and tenth and for the availability of the tenth level SD items, though willing to compromise. Not sure how many Assassin levels would be best, though i'd guess ten for that too.

Maybe 7Rogue/10SD/12Assassin?

All help is appreciated.

Rogue 10/SD 10/Assassin 9; All assassin goodness less excellent Death Attack DCs, free rogue feat, and enough flexibility so you don't lose precious BAB.

And advice for ease of leveling, get 6 SD as soon as you can, HIPS can keep you alive long enough to raise party members in 90% of spawns.

Better advice so you don't crud up your already low AB is to get 8SD in pre-epic.

8 Rogue 8 SD 4 Asassin pre-epic.

aurelius311 wrote:

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

I wouldn't give up all that lovely Regen for a couple of silly AC points. Although, in a party with a mage or a bard, that AC would get bumped high enough to make it damn effective. If you just want to be the ultimate tank, of course you'll have loads of AC alongside a big juicy DR.

Read: Kegs.

666 HP, 49AC unbuffed, 21 natural DR, +5/ Soak 5, 45 AB unbuffed. Would he get destroyed by some nancy dancer or finger wiggler in PvP? Sure. But there isnt anyone else you would rather have out there between you and the mobs.

That soak DR doesn't stack with natural DR.

ticket wrote:

// I never really tested this in Amia. Is the death shield potion better than the elemental shield?

In some occasions. Not in general.

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