AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Can you IC'ly follow more than one God/Goddess, assuming they they aren't enemies and either of them don't have something which is against the others Dogma?

Example, could someone follow both Mask and Malcanthet. (Not sure if they collide with one another...)

Yes, in fact it would be odd for many to not worship many. Everyone has a patron, but they worship many deities. Amareth's patron for example is Corellon, but she also worships all the Selderine and some non elven deities, such as mystra.

Kay, thanks for the info!

Most people -do- follow many gods. It actually isn't unusual to worship two gods that hate each other. Weird? Maybe. But not unusual. Many people in FR do. Look at the Dark Moon Heresy.

In general in FR people worship a pantheon of gods, the entire religion being polytheistic. No matter who you may see as your 'patron', for example, you would still leave an offering at the Temple of Umberlee when taking long voyages at sea.

Most people (as in commoners that supposedly decorate the world in the form of NPCs) don't even worship a patron unless they live near the protection of a Temple from what I understand.

I think the only exceptions may be religious classes.

Clerics/Paladins/whatnot.

Dwagin wrote:

I think the only exceptions may be religious classes.

Clerics/Paladins/whatnot.

Even a Paladin of Tyr likely pays homage to the rest of the Triad, as well as Helm and Lathander. Having a patron doesn't exclude you from worshipping other deities.

Dwagin wrote:

I think the only exceptions may be religious classes.

Clerics/Paladins/whatnot.

Not meant to hijack your thread 2k8ste, but it's somewhat related here

.

I'm wandering about where/how/why clerics get their divine powers/spells. Do they "cast spells" or utter prayers which the Deity in turn would do what the cleric prays for?

Follow up question.. if they do casts spells then they learn it as they get more experience, just like arcane casters; everything is fine and dandy.
But if they are prayers and that all cleric's powers/spells comes with a nod of their Deity every time, that's a lot of love flowing from their Deity.

Divine spells are called spells, but they are prasyers in the literal sense. You, with an utterance and a gesture, coax forth your deity's divine force to smite your enemies or aid your allies. This is why Divine spells are noted as often having Deific "Flair". A Banite's Darkfire is likely green emerald fire, for example. A Shield of Faith spell might manifest as a white glow of supernatural toughness for a Ilmaterite, but as a floating spiritual shield, emblazoned with red chess piece, for a Red Knight cleric.

TormakSaber wrote:

Divine spells are called spells, but they are prasyers in the literal sense. You, with an utterance and a gesture, coax forth your deity's divine force to smite your enemies or aid your allies. This is why Divine spells are noted as often having Deific "Flair". A Banite's Darkfire is likely green emerald fire, for example. A Shield of Faith spell might manifest as a white glow of supernatural toughness for a Ilmaterite, but as a floating spiritual shield, emblazoned with red chess piece, for a Red Knight cleric.

I read in some novels, probably 3.0, that a priest usually has his/her holy symbol in hand when casting the spell. A prayer is not enough, they need the holy symbol to channel it.

BlackDahlya wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Divine spells are called spells, but they are prasyers in the literal sense. You, with an utterance and a gesture, coax forth your deity's divine force to smite your enemies or aid your allies. This is why Divine spells are noted as often having Deific "Flair". A Banite's Darkfire is likely green emerald fire, for example. A Shield of Faith spell might manifest as a white glow of supernatural toughness for a Ilmaterite, but as a floating spiritual shield, emblazoned with red chess piece, for a Red Knight cleric.

I read in some novels, probably 3.0, that a priest usually has his/her holy symbol in hand when casting the spell. A prayer is not enough, they need the holy symbol to channel it.

Divine spells need to be prayed for to attain ... which can only be done once per day at the same time every day. On the bright side they don't need to rest.

They require their holy symbol to turn undead, and as a focus for some divine spells, but I just did a quick look through the PHB and couldn't find mention of clerics needing their holy symbol to cast all spell.

How aware of the individual supplicants are the gods?

Not just a Cleric/Pally/BG/Druid/Ranger at the time of praying and casting(although I'd like to know about that too), but also Joe Commoner when he drops a baby goat into the collection box at the village shrine.

I'm inclined to say 'not much', Ruce, since as far as I know most clerics are caught by their clergies for crimes that their gods would have Fallen them for if they gave a damn.
Although they do seem to check a cleric's alignment.

Edit: As for commoner supplicants, I'm more leaning towards 'not at all'

Uberuce wrote:

How aware of the individual supplicants are the gods?

Not just a Cleric/Pally/BG/Druid/Ranger at the time of praying and casting(although I'd like to know about that too), but also Joe Commoner when he drops a baby goat into the collection box at the village shrine.

I'd agree with Yurell and say not much outside of specific favored people. There's a reason Miracle is level 9 and costs hella XP, after all.

I don't exactly disagree with the above, but I'd rather say "No idea, they're gods after all."

I reckon they regularly watch their followers, both clergy and laymen. But they do have hundreds of thousands of them, so whether they happen to be watching you just when you drop that goat into the box is a mystery.

Maybe deities have some kind of an automated aspect of their persona that answers prayers for spells. They do need to grant clerics the spells when they're memorized, so they must be at least dimly aware of the person asking for the spells.

In the end, though, it doesn't matter. They're gods, people are mortal, and all they know is that they must worship gods.

I think Iron Angel is onto something there, they are gods in the traditional pantheistic sense after all. By turns jealous and righteous, caring and capricious. To presume too much about their nature, beyond what is codified in their dogma, is dangerous. Better to leave the air of mystery that causes people to offer that goat to the collection plate. Is the god watching? You will never know, but better safe then sorry. Isn't that the premise of the faith of the unwashed masses?

edit: they can choose to answer ALL of their followers at once if they like can't they? Gods after all.

IronAngel wrote:

Maybe deities have some kind of an automated aspect of their persona that answers prayers for spells. They do need to grant clerics the spells when they're memorized, so they must be at least dimly aware of the person asking for the spells.

The Incognitos wrote:

edit: they can choose to answer ALL of their followers at once if they like can't they? Gods after all.

If you asked my cleric about this IC, she would respond that that's why there are priests and holy warriors.

Uberuce wrote:

How aware of the individual supplicants are the gods?

Not just a Cleric/Pally/BG/Druid/Ranger at the time of praying and casting(although I'd like to know about that too), but also Joe Commoner when he drops a baby goat into the collection box at the village shrine.

My OOC non-Amia answer is that D&D 3.x spells out their abilities in some detail, regarding what they see and know. I'll give examples from Faiths and Pantheons:

Torm, as a lesser deity, can perceive everything within eight miles of any of his worshipers, holy sites, holy objects, or any place where one of his names or titles was spoken within the last hour. However, he can only simultaneously maintain five views (six counting one centered on his own body) at once. Also, other gods of equal or greater power can temporarily shield things from his perception.

So he could theoretically be watching any of his followers at a given instant, but outside of a high concentration of them, it isn't likely since he simply can't keep his eye on all of them at once.

Tyr, as a greater deity, is somewhat beefier: his range is eighteen miles and can keep tabs on up to 20 locations at once. The larger thing though is that Tyr can sense any injustice 180 days before it happens, which would give him omniscience nearly on the level of modern ideas of godhood regarding matters of his Domain.

The two comparisons I had in mind were AIs from from Sci-Fi (like Star Trek's ship computer and Iain M. Banks' Culture Minds) that can carry out zillions of conversations at once, or that gods were like radio stations, broadcasting diety power that you need to be pray or sacrifice the right way to tune into.

Guess it's the second?

I would think it is a matter like handing out a token.

The everwatchfull deity sees a follower that holds up his domain more than the average mortal and for that grants him a token, password, sign,...(whatever tickles your fancy). From then on through this mark the worshipper can acces the deity's magical power.
Leveling, which is not counted out in experience but in a deeper and firmer worship of the chosen deity, equals a greater mark or token and thus acces to higher level spells/prayers.

As clerics etc need to cast at a certain time a day, maybe then the tokens are verified for their requested prayers. Spontaneous casting is then automated through the deity's will as well.

Just my vision.

Dual Patronage:

Does it exist? Perhaps between two deities that are -exteremly- close, like "spouses" such as Moradin and Berrronar?

ticket wrote:

Not meant to hijack your thread 2k8ste, but it's somewhat related here

.

No problem, Hijack at will, my question was answered.

Thanks for the info everyone.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Dual Patronage:

Does it exist? Perhaps between two deities that are -exteremly- close, like "spouses" such as Moradin and Berrronar?

Clerics and other divine classes can only get their powers from one god, everyone else just worships the pantheon in general as needed.

As for gods, I have no doubt they can observe all their followers, but I doubt that they will .... it's a lot of people to directly observe, and if they help the wrong one they're going to piss of another deity.
Directed apathy beyond a few individual and they're granting of the prayers of their clergy seems the best bet in my mind.

Dergaii wrote:

I would think it is a matter like handing out a token.

The everwatchfull deity sees a follower that holds up his domain more than the average mortal and for that grants him a token, password, sign,...(whatever tickles your fancy). From then on through this mark the worshipper can acces the deity's magical power.
Leveling, which is not counted out in experience but in a deeper and firmer worship of the chosen deity, equals a greater mark or token and thus acces to higher level spells/prayers.

As clerics etc need to cast at a certain time a day, maybe then the tokens are verified for their requested prayers. Spontaneous casting is then automated through the deity's will as well.

Just my vision.

I love it!

Yurell wrote:

Divine spells need to be prayed for to attain ...

Not in all cases. Favoured Souls are alot more intune with their deity that they don't need to pray for their spells and supernatural resistances. The only downside to their natural "gifts" is an extremely limited repetoire: They prefer to take action and only have what's neccessary to perform that action which makes them extremely specialised in one aspect of their deity's doghma.

Galenson wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Divine spells need to be prayed for to attain ...

Not in all cases. Favoured Souls are alot more intune with their deity that they don't need to pray for their spells and supernatural resistances. The only downside to their natural "gifts" is an extremely limited repetoire: They prefer to take action and only have what's neccessary to perform that action which makes them extremely specialised in one aspect of their deity's doghma.

I was referring to core classes, but yes the Favoured Soul is an exception to this rule.

Dual patronage has been and, supposedly, still is present in the Realms. Not only among laymen, who I believe would commonly have more than one patron (a deity they felt specifically close to and actively participated in the worship of), but also among clergy: there have been NPC clerics with two patrons, though I cannot quote you the reference. (It might be that my information is false, but I highly doubt it.) Also, it's worth noticing that Silvanus, Eldath and Mielikki share the same "Chosen", two druids of the Emerald Enclave. And, of course, Qilué is both the Chosen of Mystra and a high priestess of Eilistraee.

It's problematic because of how later game editions handle the cosmology and rules of death. Personally, I'd just ignore all those details and leave them to IC speculation. It's no fun having every nitty gritty detail of the divine explained, because that doesn't exactly make it feel divine.

I'd like to see more of things like this and revering an entire pantheon or smaller part thereof. It should be quite rare among clerics and other divine casters though, so you're better off just picking one deity to get your spells from, even if you worship several.

Could you be a Cleric20/Cleric10 of two different gods in PnP?

Plainly in NWN you can't, but could you be a Paladin of Tyr who was also a Cleric of Ilmater? And for a giggle, let's throw in some Champion of (no really, I do mean) Torm.

I don't think there are any variant rules given for such, but I don't see why it should be impossible. In specific cases, at least. I'll see if I can find the NPC clerics of two deities anywhere.

Powers & Pantheons mentions that "Sharess is reputed to be served by a secretive sisterhood of female werecats known as the Eyes of Evening who also pay tribute to Selûne." I have been unable to find anything that states whether or not they are actually clerics of one or the other (or both), though the two (unofficial) references I can find suggest not. Still, it would be an interesting concept.

Aye, a lot of Good and Neutral Lycans pay homage to Selune even if their patron is someone else. An example are the Lythari. There are a number of them sponsored by the Church of Selune even if Selune isn't their patron. They'd do a Sehanine Moonbow/Selune or Eilistraee/Selune thing.

Deity question.

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