AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Right so as the title suggest i've come to notice that Amia is now full of too many smalls factions. Factions that were started and were nothing more then the flavour of the month I aint gonna name names or anything but isn't it time for a little spring cleaning?

As people must very well be aware players come and go and yet factions were the vast majority of the players have left or are inactive are still around. Some factions even have inactive faction leaders and I believe theres a rules somewhere saying that if your gonna be a faction leader you need to be an active player.

Noticing around Amia theres stil lots of small new faction trying to find their way through the cracks. Its about time to clear out some older ones and let in some new ones well there is still those enthuisatic players.

I believe that Amia would benefit far more from less larger factions then multiple smaller factions that rarely do anything now days. Also if there was a threat that your faction might be given the boot might encourage them to attempt to do events with their faction. (And guess what you dont always need a DM to do an event plenty of things you can do with just players).

If i've completely missed the mark so be it but at the times I play I defiently get this feeling.

Cheers

I very much agree.

Nex_addo wrote:

Right so as the title suggest i've come to notice that Amia is now full of too many smalls factions. Factions that were started and were nothing more then the flavour of the month I aint gonna name names or anything but isn't it time for a little spring cleaning?

As people must very well be aware players come and go and yet factions were the vast majority of the players have left or are inactive are still around. Some factions even have inactive faction leaders and I believe theres a rules somewhere saying that if your gonna be a faction leader you need to be an active player.

Noticing around Amia theres stil lots of small new faction trying to find their way through the cracks. Its about time to clear out some older ones and let in some new ones well there is still those enthuisatic players.

I believe that Amia would benefit far more from less larger factions then multiple smaller factions that rarely do anything now days. Also if there was a threat that your faction might be given the boot might encourage them to attempt to do events with their faction. (And guess what you dont always need a DM to do an event plenty of things you can do with just players).

If i've completely missed the mark so be it but at the times I play I defiently get this feeling.

Cheers

Since factions are voluntary associations of players, what do you suggest?

How do you "boot" a faction that has no areas, no forum, and is just a bunch of people connected to each other by roleplay?

Kjetta wrote:

I very much agree.

Me too, but I am realistic enough to know it won't change.

I've always seen three major factions as the best approach to a faction system which generates role play.

Either Good vs Neutral vs Evil or Lawful vs Neutral vs Chaotic.

Not everyone agrees with that, but those servers I've been to which have had the most active and on-going faction RP have had less factions with more players involved with each faction.

The most the Dms can do is take away a inactive factions forum or area, if they even have such, really.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 14:32 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 14:32 PM, edited 2 times in total.

Dev Disco wrote:

Me too, but I am realistic enough to know it won't change.

Lest my previous post give the wrong impression, I would also like to see a smaller number of large factions. I just don't see how it could be accomplished given the large number of people who have no interest in more overarching factions.

Wiltun - Evil

Cordor - Neutral

Kohlingen - Good

I'd say that the majority of our current factions could fit into either of those three, making them the main factions and the other faction sub-factions.

There will always be outsiders. But even Cyricists could be added to Wiltun. Just have their lair a secret underground area, and then the Banites will have to show some respect for their area being located and Wiltun, and therefore not strive to sack it at each given opportunity.

OOC adjustments to achieve a greater IC experience.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 14:32 PM, edited 2 times in total.

Phearnun wrote:

There is also the problem that much of amia is just too spread out. If the banites and the horsemen were for instance in Tarkuul, it would not really matter if one faction does not have a large number of members, as they would profit from the larger ones by having someone to interact with regularly, and the larger faction wouldnt have to interact soley with itself.

I agree with this, but have encountered strong resistance to factions even being based in close proximity. Just because. No real reason ever given. My opinion is that in general the cause is:

1. People who would rather have a puddle to themselves than have to share a pond.
2. People who just have no desire to interact with certain other players.

How do you define 'faction'?

If you mean a group united for a common purpose, then the question comes up, what is that purpose, and how do people or groups with different beliefs work toward that? One of the concerns voiced above is trying to mush disparate groups together when they RPly would not be.

Even saying that evil characters should hang out in Wiltun, neutrals in Cordor and goods in Kohl restricts players' access to many areas in the game. How would you enforce this? Alignment gates? And if you arent going to enforce it, why bother saying it except perhaps to note that more RP of one type tends to occur in a particular area so factions with particular goals or orientations might tend to be based out of those areas.

I guess I'm not clear on how you can force the players into three factions and what purpose that would serve.

It'd be like herding cats.

Cats on cocaine.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 14:32 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Phearnun wrote:

I agree for the majority of factions this would be possible, I also agree that having factions not so spread out would result in more roleplay for the groups. Its pretty much what I said with my Kohlingen example, it does not matter how many factions are in it, as long as they act like subfactions of the larger faction (Residents of Kohlingen).

Add in Cordor: Knights of Tempus

Add in Wiltun: Banites, Horsemen, followers of Tiamat, Thayvians

Add in Kohlingen: Helmites (out of Forstakkr), Followers of Lathander (out of Nes'ek and Cordor, replace the Nes'ek temple with a temple of Horus-Re), Saladrans, Selunites.

Exceptions: Grove, Winya, Bendir, Ultrinnan, Tower of Mystra, Underport, Khem, Kobold/Goblin places, Shadowscape.

You wouldnt have to cut down on the areas such as Howness or the Merc camp if those factions would really move, as they are still very useful for plots or to visit to roleplay there, but it would definetly help to have the majority of factions present in one place.

Seems like we're on the same track here.

I agree with your points.

The factions I could see in each "major" faction would be:

Kohlingen - Defenders, Helmites, Followers of Lathander, Salandrans, Selunites, Knights of the Triad, Harpers (?)

Cordor - Amian Traders Federation, Kelemvorites, Cordorian Guard, Shadowflames, Flaming Blade

Wiltun - Black Flag, Horsemen, Banites, Cyricists, Sharites, Followers of Tiamat, Thayvians

If all of those "sub"-factions were to be moved into those "major" factions I think we'd get a lot more progressive faction RP going in the setting.

Xaviera wrote:

How do you define 'faction'?

If you mean a group united for a common purpose, then the question comes up, what is that purpose, and how do people or groups with different beliefs work toward that? One of the concerns voiced above is trying to mush disparate groups together when they RPly would not be.

Even saying that evil characters should hang out in Wiltun, neutrals in Cordor and goods in Kohl restricts players' access to many areas in the game. How would you enforce this? Alignment gates? And if you arent going to enforce it, why bother saying it except perhaps to note that more RP of one type tends to occur in a particular area so factions with particular goals or orientations might tend to be based out of those areas.

I guess I'm not clear on how you can force the players into three factions and what purpose that would serve.

It's about moving the factions into the "major" factions. Physically moving them. Then it's still up to them ("sub"-factions") if they want to participate in the big on-goings.

Instead of having dozens of factions spread out over the entire module, we'd get factions gathering up in a more close vicinity. Which would hopefully get them to start working together and interact more often with each other, instead of being isolated.

Might mean that Wiltun and Kohlingen would have to expand, however, in order to provide locations for all of these "sub"-factions.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 14:32 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Phearnun wrote:

Well, some factions just dont mix well with certain groups while others do. To take the Eternal Order (not the kelemvorite church) as an example, we left Kohlingen as it was impossible for us to act there even if we got along with the Triadic Knights really well now, neither can we be in Cordor, being banned from there for a good while.

Of course not every faction would make sense in every location. That is not what I had in mind, by the way.

Phearnun wrote:

Aswell as the agreement of the factions themselves, however that can easily be done by just asking. Even if not all of those factions would move but just half, it would still in my opinion be a great step.

It's funny you bring up the followers of Lathander, since earlier this year there was talk of the struggling "Army of Light" faction relocating to Kohlingen, where they would have benefited from network externalities. Instead, not without some prodding from people within Kohlingen, they ended up going to Nes'ek.

Put mooshing most factions together in some areas would make the outlying parts even more grinding-only places.

Mr Mago wrote:

It's about moving the factions into the "major" factions. Physically moving them. Then it's still up to them ("sub"-factions") if they want to participate in the big on-goings.

What is there to physically move, though, if a group has no physical base in the module and no forum on the website?

I think that the carrots you mention are good ideas. I would draw a comparison to Ultrinnan (in terms of anti-fragmentation): there's no rule against starting your own house, but there are massive benefits to joining an existing one in terms of IC recognition.

I don't like managing player-driven creativity any more than is absolutely necessary. If I want Kalliniel to start a small bladesinger unit independent of Winya, I don't want some OOC plans for faction organization to get in the way.

That said, it would be nice if there were a few factions considerably more powerful than others, ones that would not restrict membership just because you were also part of another faction. I don't see it happening from private faction management, though, but rather advertisement of a few broad factions/blocks that offer something interesting for their members.

Some factions no longer exist. For instance, the Helmite faction we had going is long dead and buried. It consisted of 3 players anyway.

We also buried the Silent Blades (assassin group). Other factions, are actually sub-factions already (Aurilites are a sub-faction within the Horsemen).

Some factions, would never work with other factions due to religious beliefs. For instance, the Ghaunadaur faction will never work with any other Church openly or knowingly but it would otherwise be happy to work in alliance with non-religious evil factions and does so already.

Where I do see room for amalgamation is, mercenaries all forming into one main group and all those various Knights based in Kolinghen all forming one faction (yes, they sort of are already).

Well, factions don't even need to merge. The way Mago sketched the idea, you would have several independent factions in one location. OK, so the churches of Ghaunadaur, Vhaeraun and Deep Duerra aren't likely to merge, but having them all based in the same Underdark city creates more chances of interaction and, in case of outside threats, a single "faction." The same could go for Banites, Cyricists, Velsharoonians, assassins, fences, thugs, Horsemen etc. who had to live in the same city, even if they'd love to rip eachother apart.

While not every faction will work together, it might be desireable to have a few major blocks in which independent factions work more or less together, opposed to the other blocks.

Mr Mago wrote:

It's about moving the factions into the "major" factions. Physically moving them. Then it's still up to them ("sub"-factions") if they want to participate in the big on-goings.

Are you saying then that faction bases should be located in or near these three places? Or that all sub-factions share the same HQ? I assume you are not advocating the latter, but I bring it up for completness' sake.

Some places are better for certain groups than others. It is not appropriate for the Grove to be anywhere but the Grove.

I very much agree with concurrency of locations of churches, and faction locations. Especially amongst deities that are widely known to be allied or have similar goals in mind.

This could give DMs a better chance to interact, as they wouldn't have to work with just ONE faction at a time but a mutual factional location. I've been for this for a long time. I don't care about the particulars. Religion based factions are understandably hard to 'merge', and certain racial tribe ones are also, but I still think that more could be done.

I wouldn't mind seeing an evil dragon influence or more major villains playing out over Amia. I don't want another 'horde invasion' type scenario, but I think this is kind of the stuff that everyone would get behind and have fun with.

I also think DM's could guide factions even if there is a PC leader. I think it would be okay, especially for the religious ones for the leader to get Orders from their god's chosen or high priest, or such, to stir up some creativity or action, maybe even 'NPC observers' to see how they do. We don't have to go back to the days of gods walking the streets of amia to get a fire lit up under people's arses, but I think it is something that needs done, and could provide fun. Those type interactions are what for me makes religious rp best, is having notice as a result of your faith, or limits, or challenges.

Witltun is a terrible, terrible place for Banites who want to be banites, and not Banites who just want to do their own thing.

There's too many factions, and I'll always reserve the right to groan, but I will defend to yhe deah your right to make your flavor of the month faction without OOC hindrance because someone thinks all Evil places should be stuck into Wiltun which is totally not the 'evil' you want, IMHO.

Dwagin wrote:

I also think DM's could guide factions even if there is a PC leader. I think it would be okay, especially for the religious ones for the leader to get Orders from their god's chosen or high priest, or such, to stir up some creativity or action, maybe even 'NPC observers' to see how they do. We don't have to go back to the days of gods walking the streets of amia to get a fire lit up under people's arses, but I think it is something that needs done, and could provide fun. Those type interactions are what for me makes religious rp best, is having notice as a result of your faith, or limits, or challenges.

DM guides faction through god's chosen, high priest, NPC observer, whatever.

Faction DM guided succeeds in endeavour or wins out over another faction.

Other faction's unanimous cry: "You only won because you had DM support! The DMs hate us and always have!"

Faction DM guided fails in endeavour or loses to another faction.

DM guided faction's unanimous cry: "We only lost because the DM hates us! He tricked us and made us think we were doing the right thing! I HATE AMIA YOU ARE SO UNFAIR."

Tell them that if they want some support they got to stop crying.

Before this post gets side tracked.. I guess it really comes down to maturity. There is only one way to ensure you will never ever lose on Amia and that is by simply not playing. Failure is a part of life deal with it.

I guess removing forums would be a start. Trying to look at it in a newbie's view if they joined the forums looks down all the factions and there were much fewer selections 9 times out of 10 they would still pick one of those factions and that way at least new players would be adding into the larger factions.
Destroying some faction areas would also go hand in hand really in removing forums.

Most people want to be the king of their own little hill and that's fine. It doesn't work ninety nine percent of the time thank god, and that's fine too. If people want to join a major faction then they can, all you can really do is give them the option and let them decide. But trying to socially engineer factions would probably be worse than what's happening now.

I think there's bigger stuff to be urked about, personally.

Phantom-D wrote:

Tell them that if they want some support they got to stop crying.

A message I repeat often enough, but I am never heard over the din created by cries of favoritism, the vapid chatter of roleplay substituting real life, and the clockwork crash of repeat bosslooters.

why not ignore them? and politly tell them that it is all in there head, there is no favortism?

Because they then go over your head and write letters to Disco and Nekhy demanding justice.

herkles wrote:

why not ignore them? and politly tell them that it is all in there head, there is no favortism?

Because ignoring the playerbase is not something the current DM team is willing to do. Contrary to the overwhelming opinion of the playerbase, we don't blow players off on a whim.

As for politely telling a player that there is no favoritism, you are forgetting one of the chief "truths" according to the Amian playerbase: there is favoritism, and every single DM is a liar.

I think, we should just merge the factions that can merge, and it should be done IC, not on the forums. :idea:

Xaviera wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

It's about moving the factions into the "major" factions. Physically moving them. Then it's still up to them ("sub"-factions") if they want to participate in the big on-goings.

Are you saying then that faction bases should be located in or near these three places? Or that all sub-factions share the same HQ? I assume you are not advocating the latter, but I bring it up for completness' sake.

The first. Faction bases located in or near these places.

Independent factions shouldn't share the same HQ.

I think the Amian Federation Office in Cordor is a good example of this.

Dwagin wrote:

I very much agree with concurrency of locations of churches, and faction locations. Especially amongst deities that are widely known to be allied or have similar goals in mind.

This could give DMs a better chance to interact, as they wouldn't have to work with just ONE faction at a time but a mutual factional location. I've been for this for a long time. I don't care about the particulars. Religion based factions are understandably hard to 'merge', and certain racial tribe ones are also, but I still think that more could be done.

I wouldn't mind seeing an evil dragon influence or more major villains playing out over Amia. I don't want another 'horde invasion' type scenario, but I think this is kind of the stuff that everyone would get behind and have fun with.

I also think DM's could guide factions even if there is a PC leader. I think it would be okay, especially for the religious ones for the leader to get Orders from their god's chosen or high priest, or such, to stir up some creativity or action, maybe even 'NPC observers' to see how they do. We don't have to go back to the days of gods walking the streets of amia to get a fire lit up under people's arses, but I think it is something that needs done, and could provide fun. Those type interactions are what for me makes religious rp best, is having notice as a result of your faith, or limits, or challenges.

I asked for this while I was still in the Church. Plans were to have an NPC leader of the faction which both regulated the OOC potential of not so endorsed leadership as well as to promote RP progress.

Anyhow, I agree with your entire post, Dwagin.

Yossarin wrote:

herkles wrote:

why not ignore them? and politly tell them that it is all in there head, there is no favortism?

Because ignoring the playerbase is not something the current DM team is willing to do. Contrary to the overwhelming opinion of the playerbase, we don't blow players off on a whim.

As for politely telling a player that there is no favoritism, you are forgetting one of the chief "truths" according to the Amian playerbase: there is favoritism, and every single DM is a liar.

When I say ignore them, i mean ignore their whining and complaing.

also yoss, I have a question. Since I noticed you are soo negative about things that you yourself think would be good. Do you do or try to make some of these ideas happen? or do you just avoid to not be yelled at for favoritsim?

I do them, and make them happen, and get yelled at for favoritism, or for, as I was recently told, "making it impossible" for someone to play his/her PC. Suffer the slings and arrows, etc.

I have seen the true face of the Amian playerbase. The ugliness that resides beneath the friendly words, the obligatory DM or Developer appreciation threads. It is difficult to remain undaunted. It is even more difficult to become resigned, as I have; to remain undaunted, but also with no delusions about the community.

IronAngel wrote:

Well, factions don't even need to merge. The way Mago sketched the idea, you would have several independent factions in one location. OK, so the churches of Ghaunadaur, Vhaeraun and Deep Duerra aren't likely to merge, but having them all based in the same Underdark city creates more chances of interaction and, in case of outside threats, a single "faction." The same could go for Banites, Cyricists, Velsharoonians, assassins, fences, thugs, Horsemen etc. who had to live in the same city, even if they'd love to rip eachother apart.

While not every faction will work together, it might be desireable to have a few major blocks in which independent factions work more or less together, opposed to the other blocks.

Weeel, that was the whole idea behind Underport's factions with forming a governing and defence Council and we're still awaiting a decision on that. We're well aware that working together or being in close proximity helps a lot and put forward a proposal over 1 month ago and are still awaiting the resolution from the DM team. The ball is in their court...Not sure what the Vhaeraunites are doing, one minute they were all keen, next thing they decided to go it alone...but I don't know what's going on behind the scenes there so I can't comment.

Yossarin wrote:

I have seen the true face of the Amian playerbase. The ugliness that resides beneath the friendly words, the obligatory DM or Developer appreciation threads.

Methinks I detect the signs of impending DM burnout.

soundofastream wrote:

<snip>

Weeel, that was the whole idea behind Underport's factions with forming a governing and defence Council and we're still awaiting a decision on that. We're well aware that working together or being in close proximity helps a lot and put forward a proposal over 1 month ago and are still awaiting the resolution from the DM team. The ball is in their court...Not sure what the Vhaeraunites are doing, one minute they were all keen, next thing they decided to go it alone...but I don't know what's going on behind the scenes there so I can't comment.

That's right, you're not supposed to know. ;)

Your comment was probably innocently made, but I think there was a jab there somewhere -and I will, of course, stand corrected if I am wrong. I will, however, appreciate if you could curb that kind of comment.

Or, if you disagree with how the Vhaeraunites are being run, as this was not the first time I saw this kind of comment coming from you, feel free to PM me instead of making veiled comments in the forums.

Thank you.

Factions are an IC occurance. Therefore I don't favor any sort of OOC cleanup.

Yep, there are flavor-of-the-month ones, but such happens IRL. Fads. Cults. Fashions. Art. Philosophic sects. Religions. Politics.

Don't like it IC? Man a group and convince all the other little factions to fall in and join you. Disagree OoCly? Realize that as long as you have many different types of players with their own choice of RP, having a multitude of small groups will always be a reality. Just accept it.

There's also always the option of using slight OOC means to achieve a greater IC experience... at times, when the IC experience tends to stagnate.

When that happens, if you truly perceive that as your only option, then you, and everyone involved, has failed.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Factions are an IC occurance. Therefore I don't favor any sort of OOC cleanup.

Yep, there are flavor-of-the-month ones, but such happens IRL. Fads. Cults. Fashions. Art. Philosophic sects. Religions. Politics.

Don't like it IC? Man a group and convince all the other little factions to fall in and join you. Disagree OoCly? Realize that as long as you have many different types of players with their own choice of RP, having a multitude of small groups will always be a reality. Just accept it.

I like that ... what's wrong with small groups? I could create a faction (and did) that only has a few people in it - those characters would never join another faction, so demolishing the small one means absolutely nothing.

TormakSaber wrote:

When that happens, if you truly perceive that as your only option, then you, and everyone involved, has failed.

I am inclined to agree with Tormak.

Who said it was the only option?

O my eyes from reading this..

Faction is a gathering of characters under 1 or 2 leader coop. Faction is and should be 10 ACTIVE members. Otherwise you have Groups.
Groups tend to be 3-8 characters, trying to become a Faction noticed by DMs and others of Amia.
Active the key word here.. means that character is played about 2+ day a week. Leaders are 3+ a week.

There are many ''Groups'' than there are Factions.

This not flaming the thread at all or anyone. Yes, would be a good idead to look and have Faction report in to the DMs on active members to consider them Faction or a group.
I know they do for Drow Houses! Which is why drow are actively hunting for anyone to join them. (I wont go there since I am known to be picky)
Perhaps DMs can ask the lead factions to keep a list of active members for a quarterly check up?

You still have your groupie folks.. say Bladesingers for training, War Knights a group of Tempus working as mercenaries, or what not in smaller stuff that do not even have a forum sight. Those do flux in game time but does not always mean they are a real faction. Just a group with a simple understanding among them.

No offense to WK's here. When I mentioned them is they do have a common ideal that being Tempus. They use the Temple and the Merc. Camp, but never have they been a forum faction. Just a Group. There is no harm done there at all, if the leader is off on IRL business. Its still up the other characters to get together for things to do. That is another tangent.

Only thing that does bother me is the government forces out on duty and away from home for months on end and to come back finding all they did vanished.

My other tangets a bit ->

I did at one point help lead the V's. But the heart left and came back and things started to spark again. Leaders are the heart and I see where most folks lose interest if their leader is gone. Why you have a second or partner in a faction, :shock:

Reality is out there.. OMG!

What I learned from many decades of gaming. Most end up falling apart inactivity is the other characters, do think the leader is the one for making all events. Wrong! Leader is just to help organize and keep all together information. Events, activity and more is a whole group and based upon the leader themselves. Cant be leader without the followers supporting. Anyone can come up with ideas to do something, from politics to war. Just be creative and speak up.

I am just opening up the minds of everyone for a different view.

Factions...
Groups...

IF faded, there was a reason. So be it. Going to start one.. expect alot of work and responsiblity for it. Just reminder a leader is not always the one call events, others within can help and create them too.

NOW I can go spank and paddle my Kil'ani.. wahahahaha

Too many factions?

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