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Xenos wrote:

Its fine if the rings are now mythalable, but 100% immunity should be NOTHING short of 4 powers.

Question:

Right now according to the mythal crafting sidebar, 15/- elemental resistance is two powers and 20/- elemental resistance is four powers. If 100% elemental immunity is only being counted as a single power, can elemental resistance be changed as well?

@Xenos

I actually though this thread would be an uncontroversial one. So I took the liberty of breaking (what I though to be) the good news with some humor. Showed me!

Anyways, the OP is actually an announcemet that people with these rings can have them unplotted by a DM. I never invited to a discussion, so It's rather unfair to say that I made this thread to "tease" the community with a false hope of having influence.

And epic loot is epic loot; +30 Discipline is also just one mythal power.

Aslo, I never said all mages PvP all the time, but those who don't won't notice this much because monsters usually don't mythal their gear.

And yes, this makes everybody with rings slightly more powerful, but mostly against mages. And that's fine, because mages already rape face in PvP so much that it isn't funny.

I don't mind the picked on in school and nerdrage comment. I disagree with them, naturally. But hey ho!

And once again, the majority of the community proves they know shit of game mechanics, PW development and PvM/PvP balance.

Here's three implementions, so you don't have to worry about either:

1. Ban PvP

2. Remove all epic loot

3. Ban multi-classing and min-maxing of stats.

FIXED.

StandingBehindYou wrote:

Right now according to the mythal crafting sidebar, 15/- elemental resistance is two powers and 20/- elemental resistance is four powers. If 100% elemental immunity is only being counted as a single power, can elemental resistance be changed as well?

This.

And Kjetta, this just reminds me of the post about the summens getting balanced. There was nothing to come for a thread like that, or like this, then the people getting a good Haha at the expense of others. Its the same with ever other post thats made point out nerfs/buffs that has short commings to others. If its already in, its already changed, there is no going back, and Ao himself can post here saying its wrong and it still wouldnt be altered.. WHY is it even discussed? If you want player input, ask for it before you do a change, not after when it wont matter anymore.

As to +30 to a Skill, i dont think thats really all that powerful, i dont have said gloves mind, so im not like some others whom want to see changes for the epic loot they have, making it better. But i wouldnt be against that costing more powers too.

But really, you cant compare a +30 skill glove to a +100% immunity ring. Fire for example, is the main damage in the Wizard spells, at least the better spells, as i recall. So putting on a ring of Fire Immunity makes you immune to a nice chunck of direct damage spells, making evoction less useful, along with others. Should something with THAT kind of power really be anything short of 4 powers? Should something with that power be open to have more mythaled onto it?

Sure, maybe if you were only using one of these rings, it wouldnt be bad, but the people that have them are going to be sporting two of these, all the time now. So were looking at 100% immunity to say, fire and acid, all the time, with 2 free powers left on said rings? Hell, for a laugh, lets throw in 50% immunity to another element via RDD.

I feel bad for thinking it, but i cant help myself. It sure looks like whomever pitched this change, was not looking for the interest of the server, but themselves, and it quickly got support from other members of the team whom have same said rings, only thinking about how sick it would be on their chars, and how much fun it was going to be to be immune to most elements. I mean, is there anyone up there arguing against these chanages or is everyone just happy lala about being uber?

Yes Mago, obviously that is the best action to take.. i mean, your opinion wouldnt be biased would it? I mean, your not sitting on a stack of immunity rings are you? Nah, it would be silly of me to think that. Clearly when logic is put forth showing how 100% immunity should be 4 powers, or 3 at least, you go on the def and cry Dooms day. How interesting.

Actually, I don't.

Since I had my character stripped of all its items.

Congrats on that failed assumption.

Xenos wrote:

As to +30 to a Skill, i dont think thats really all that powerful

Xenos wrote:

But really, you cant compare a +30 skill glove to a +100% immunity ring.

True. Since, generally speaking, +30 to a skill is more powerful than an elemental immunity.

Xenos wrote:

Fire for example, is the main damage in the Wizard spells, at least the better spells, as i recall. So putting on a ring of Fire Immunity makes you immune to a nice chunck of direct damage spells, making evoction less useful, along with others. Should something with THAT kind of power really be anything short of 4 powers? Should something with that power be open to have more mythaled onto it?

Wizards/Sorcerers are the best classes in the game. They outclass everyone else both in PvP and PvM, without having to powerbuild for it.

If they're given a counter to their already overwhelming arsenal of destructive powers, then that's nothing but good.

This has not affected mages much tbh,

Melee: Ha your years of studying will not save you, i have traveled across the globe, slain dragons and demons, men women children all cowar at my might!.
Mage: Why would i pick up a sword, when with one wave of my hand I can consume your soul?
Melee: charge!
*Fighting ensues*
Mage:Timestop,mord,bigby wail.
END

OPTION 4! OPTION 4! OPTION 4!

Well, that sucks for you Mago, cheating is bad, unless your donated it all to childern, then thats good. Id still bet you had the rings, and hope to have them again, ill still count your oppinion as biased based on that.

And Craig is right, mostly. While this dosnt over affect Wizards or Sorcs, becouse a good wizard or sorc, dosnt put to much trust in spells with saves, or that do stright up damage. Mind that this also affects Druids, but not really clerics, i think most of their damage is divine..

Uh, +30 to a skill isnt that great.. okay.. +30 SC gives +6 to saves vs spells.. not a huge deal, really. +30 Disc makes you less lightly to get knocked down? Well thats a good one, still, not sure its compareable to being immune to a type of damage.

Putting aside the rest of the nonsence, can you rightfully say that 100% immuntiy fits into one power in the mythal system? Where as the current immunities do less, but cost more powers? I mean.. a +4 regen ring isnt one power, and its epic aint it? So dont use the "Oh its epic immunity!" kinda line.

But i asume the changes are already in, and people likly already made their rings, so even if things are reverted, there is going to be a bunch of rings with immunity and stats on it *shrug*

Xenos wrote:

Well, that sucks for you Mago, cheating is bad, unless your donated it all to childern, then thats good. Id still bet you had the rings, and hope to have them again, ill still count your oppinion as biased based on that.

No offense, but you don't know shit as to why my character was stripped, so don't comment on it.

And no, I didn't have the rings, and I've never had an actual interest in having them. My concern was with attaining other epic loot. So once again, your assumptions fail. Congrats.

Xenos wrote:

Uh, +30 to a skill isnt that great.. okay.. +30 SC gives +6 to saves vs spells.. not a huge deal, really. +30 Disc makes you less lightly to get knocked down? Well thats a good one, still, not sure its compareable to being immune to a type of damage.

Those who are knowledgeable as far as PvP goes, know that +30 Discipline is a huge boost. As is +30 concentration, +30 perform and +30 spellcraft.

Xenos wrote:

Putting aside the rest of the nonsence, can you rightfully say that 100% immuntiy fits into one power in the mythal system? Where as the current immunities do less, but cost more powers? I mean.. a +4 regen ring isnt one power, and its epic aint it? So dont use the "Oh its epic immunity!" kinda line.

I actually don't agree with how some of the mythal powers are divided. But I maintain that epic loot is epic loot, and as such the powers granted on those items should accumulate with the mythal crafting system. Otherwise a lot of it wouldn't be epic any more.

(Using Epic Gloves as an example. If they weren't mythable, you'd have +30 skill at the cost of 4 mythal powers. There are plenty of items in the game that give +8 to +10 as a skill bonus, effectively making the epic loot useless when compared to already purchaseable and mythable loot in the module.)

I dont really care why you lost your gear, though i am rather flabber gasted that you didnt have said rings, applogies for my ignorance then.

I still think these rings are to powerful, though. But i suppose there isnt much reasion for me to argue that and make enemies now is there? Like ive pointed out before, these sorts of threads are more for getting off ones jollies then making a discussion about the communites thoughts on said items.

Big fan of this move, very good thinking behind it. Just my .02.

Elemental immunity is not exactly a common item property. You can find a fair few items with decent damage resistance, regeneration, universal saves. But there isn't a full set of elemental immunity gear, so if you find or acquire an elemental immunity ring then it's going to be hard not to wear that sucker all the time just in case you need it. If the overwhelming majority of people want two slots to mythal more powers onto that ring so that don't have to keep switching gear around that one ring (bearing in mind there are plenty of rings which break the three-power limit for that kind of item) so that the one ring isn't so underwhelming, I could give less of a damn.

Honestly if you survive your encounter with the bizarreness that is the mythal crafting system without scratching your head, crossing your eyes, and/or suffering brain implosion, you aren't from this planet.

Kjetta, humor aside...perhaps it would have been better to just make this one a cut and dried post in announcements along with the other updates that Disco lists?

If it can't be changed...it's less a discussion than an announcement really. **shrugs and gives Kjetta a cookie for trying to lighten things up*

How is this such a big deal? I just don't see it.
It seems to have become a debate about whether mages are good in PvP.

As for 20/- immunity in an element vs the 60 damage Acid Sheathe can get, that 1/3 resistance increases your chance of devving by 10%, maybe 14% depending on the HP and AB of the meleer.

Good change.

I applaud this nerf.
Requesting Ring of Time Stop and IGMS immunity in the epic lootbin next.

Ring of Crit immunity and Knockdown immunity too plz!

After further thought and talking to others, i dont care anymore! They dont bother arguing these things becouse it dosnt make a difference, and rightly so. Im making fights and pissin in peoples tea to get nowhere but less DC from DMs a piss off along the way.

I would like to see ring of Magic immunity added in though, i mean, the elenments arent really that useful, useful yes, but Magic damage is the real hurter. That would be sweet, no joke, im serious.

Xenos wrote:

Ring of Crit immunity and Knockdown immunity too plz!

:)

After further thought and talking to others, i dont care anymore! They dont bother arguing these things becouse it dosnt make a difference, and rightly so. Im making fights and pissin in peoples tea to get nowhere but less DC from DMs a piss off along the way.

I would like to see ring of Magic immunity added in though, i mean, the elenments arent really that useful, useful yes, but Magic damage is the real hurter. That would be sweet, no joke, im serious.

That sounds ridiculous IMO. Unless you feel like removing HiPS and Dev Crit while you're at it.

Last edited by Kjetta on Wed, Apr 22 2009, 7:14 AM, edited 1 time in total.

People, people, people...

One thing is the change, you can disagree with that as much as you want; you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. However, this:

Xenos wrote:

And Kjetta, this just reminds me of the post about the summens getting balanced. There was nothing to come for a thread like that, or like this, then the people getting a good Haha at the expense of others. Its the same with ever other post thats made point out nerfs/buffs that has short commings to others. If its already in, its already changed, there is no going back, and Ao himself can post here saying its wrong and it still wouldnt be altered.. WHY is it even discussed? If you want player input, ask for it before you do a change, not after when it wont matter anymore.

Xenos, please read the OP again. Where does it say that we want player input or invite to a discussion? I posted to notify the players that already have the rings so they could grab a DM and have the rings unplotted.

This whole discussion is player-initiated, mostly people have just been asking questions and we've tried to answer. And that's fine, but it's just blatantly wrong to say that we are mimicing democracy; we are not. We are honest dictators.

Xenos wrote:

Like ive pointed out before, these sorts of threads are more for getting off ones jollies then making a discussion about the communites thoughts on said items.

It certainly wasn't about getting the communities' thoughts on said items, but also not for getting 'off ones jollies'. It was intented as a simple announcement about an unsignificant change, that I thought wouldn't meet controverse. This is why is it labelled 'announcement' and not 'debate' or 'gauging for interest' or 'please give your comment on this'.

colanah wrote:

Kjetta, humor aside...perhaps it would have been better to just make this one a cut and dried post in announcements along with the other updates that Disco lists?

This isn't a module change, this is a notification about a module change that is also working retrospectively. If we had posted this only in server changes in announcement, how long do you think it would take before someone popped the question "Can I mythal my old Elemental Immunity Ring" in General? This is just skipping ahead of inevitable events.

And this is my hobby; if I can't go about it with humor, then I'd quit.

How amusing... this thread proves that any change will trigger senseless bitching about the same old topics, not matter how unrelated to the actual change.

People, the title is meant to be ironic.

This sort of things never go into the Announcements forum. Putting them into General is a tactical choice: the topic will get bumped a lot when people ask questions, so it will flash as "new" to a lot of people, which means majority of players will have a chance to read it before it gets lost in time. If we're lucky, majority of players will know about whatever was announced in General in a while, and after that they'll also spread if via word of mouth.

Announcements -forum is a dead archive, that few people look into on a regular basis.

What we could do, is put those patronising instructions into these announcement topics: "This is not up for discussion, but feel free to ask questions!" (and I do add such notes at times, just to see if it has any effect on DMs getting flak like in this topic), but even those get mostly ignored by everyone.

So, here we got a little change that Kjetta thought would be received with joy. What he gets is a smackdown for thinking he'd inform the players of something nice for a change, in a humorous way.

And you people wonder why DMs get demotivated and reluctant to run nice events and stuff?!

Someone will complain for every little change. Like I said, I couldn't see ay problem with it, which is why I didn't respond until people actually started complaining ... it seems a nice little extra to play with.

Hm...was mostly curious as to the why it was in General and not Announcements. Partially can see why now so thanks for that. I suppose the next question to Kjetta would have been why post it but not make it locked?

Mother goose Nekhy however has answered that.

:lol:

*wanders off to game and enjoy*

Frankly all the little tweaks/nerfs/balances don't affect my game play at all so my opinion on the subject is "Get in the kitchen and fetch us some cupcakes"

I just thought i'd make one of those post count increasing posts that fill these types of threads to the bursting point.

Arguing = U PHAIL @ lyfe!

colanah wrote:

Hm...was mostly curious as to the why it was in General and not Announcements. Partially can see why now so thanks for that. I suppose the next question to Kjetta would have been why post it but not make it locked?

Locking it would make asking questions impossible, and thus would be the same as posting it elsewhere. We want people to post, so that the topic flashes with that "New post!" arrow a LOT. That means people are more likely to read it, because people are curious little creatures and want to see what is causing all this heated discussion or just like browsing all the new posts at their leisure.

Stickies get very easily skipped by people, nobody reads them. Not even the DMs read stickies, because they are so easy to skip if they don't flash "New post!" and they are inconveniently at the top of the forum where people usually see stuff they don't need to read often.

We probably should have a sticky with links to all these announcement-discussions, though. We obviously can't make them all stickies in the end, after the questions have been answered, the forums would be cluttered with stickies if we did that. But a link sticky would be good for finding them at a later point.

Once again the truth is a bit less glorious. I forgot to add it to the update log and remembered about two weeks later while browsing a somewhat related topic in the DM forums. It took another 10 days till Kjetta noticed my remark about it, and made this post.

So, no clever plots, I am afraid. No strategy either.

Just absentminded wheels turning slowly.

It looks very professional, though, it seems.

Nah, this thread would've gone up even if you'd posted in your update list because it relates to stuff people already have in their inventory. Even if you made it so that the mirrors unplotted the rings on entry, you'd need to inform players because an unplotted elemental ring looks a lot like a plotted one.

So, absentminded wheels turning slowly, but with strategy!

Yups, I know. I just want to stress that we don't play hide-and-seek games on purpose. Stuff just slips through now and then.

Ah well, I can go around and pimp slap these ring holders for rubbing their craftability in my face. I'll never be bored again rubbing in the fact that I can turn a simple towershield into epic loot just to see the smug on their faces dissappear and then I can start being the snob.

Thanks DM team! My day is made.

I moved the Gray part to the top, becouse its the point of the post, and the constructive part of it. Read the rest at your leasure.

Now i suppose i can go in circles about this that or the other, but it would be more simple to look at the Mythal system in comparsion to these rings. Why is it that, as another player posted, 15/- is 2 powers, and 20/- is 4 powers.. when the VASTLY supperior 100% immunity, is one power? I understand its an epic item, and many of the epic items contradict the Mythal system, but you dont see +4 regen costing 1 power do you? Or +5 int costing 1 power? Or perhaps +6 Cha cloaks? These items are mythalable, yes, but to tamber with them, would only make them vastly weaker then their current state.. So why is it that 100% immunity, is 1 power? Sure, make it Mythalable.. your options are to change the name or remove the resistance. It should NOT be open to add 2 more powers to it, unless ALL epic items are going to now follow said trend.

Kjetta wrote:

it would hurt PvP happy mages the most, and we like that.

This is what gets me ticked the most about this thread. You say its just posted for the sake of helping the people with the rings know the change was made, id be hard pressed to belive there wasnt a snicker and a thought of "cant wait tell the casters see this!" Fine, you like to have a laugh when your doing your hobby, thats great, awsome, hope your injoy yourself dispite my bitching really i do! Mind how things will come across when you put them up, though. I look at this and think to myself, oh, great, the dm with the boss farming meleer is conviently putting up a post about how his immunity rings are getting buffed. Then i see a comment like the thing above, and while i otherwise might have just closed the window and not gave a shit, well, now i do.

I would point out the thread about summen balance changes, i belive i pointed out there that these threads about balances and such appear as little more then "Haha" rub it in threads to anyone adversly affected. Yes, i know this hardly affects casters, but when you see posts like the one above, and a few others that target casters, i cant help but feel that i should put in my word on it.

@Nehky;
Fair enough, understandable then that its in General 'Discussion' for the purpose of getting bumped. But when things arent really open for discussion, make that known, or dont post it at all in the case of the summen balances. Letting people know is okay, but leaving it open for people to make comments that do nothing but turn an informitive post for questions into a "Haha you got nerfed" fest is wrong. If someone makes a post that isnt a stright question, delete it. If they want to ignore fourm rules, send them on a day long fourm vacation.

Nehky wrote:

So, here we got a little change that Kjetta thought would be received with joy. What he gets is a smackdown for thinking he'd inform the players of something nice for a change, in a humorous way.

Little change, making something everyone can get stronger, these arnt bad things, sure, more power for all is great, so is humor! Start putting in things like ive read in this thread, and it turns into something else, whatver the posters orginal intent was, its lost in translation after reading other posts down the line that target other players. Especially comments from a DM like above that tells us the team is doing their best to stick it to the Sorc/Wizard class. A Joke, sure, why not, bet people that know him get it, i dont know him, all i know is what ive already writen here.. But hey, maybe im the one with nerd rage, maybe the thought of a group of people working to shut down Wiz/Sorc's sets me off, i dont know! Be it true or not, its not really the place for the 'humor'.

Nehky wrote:

And you people wonder why DMs get demotivated and reluctant to run nice events and stuff?!

Oh i love nice events and stuff, and i dont think any DM is demotived by this, if anything i just killed my odds of ever getting a DC or DC item again. Humor is fine, but in a post about buffs/nerfs its a dangerious thing that can be lost in translation.

Kjetta wrote:

Xenos, please read the OP again. Where does it say that we want player input or invite to a discussion?

The Discussion part of 'General Discussion' invited my input.

Xenos wrote:

Nehky wrote:

And you people wonder why DMs get demotivated and reluctant to run nice events and stuff?!

Oh i love nice events and stuff, and i dont think any DM is demotived by this, if anything i just killed my odds of ever getting a DC or DC item again. Humor is fine, but in a post about buffs/nerfs its a dangerious thing that can be lost in translation.

Wouldn't that be a sign of DM demotivation, filed under "and stuff"?

Thank you for proving my point.

Disclaimer: there is no absolute decision about Xenos never getting a DC or DC item again, the above is used as an example.

Yup, that is a nice contradiction.

But we never penalize people for having strong opinions and disagreeing with us. We have some class after all. Just wanted to stress that.

We are humans, of course, and will find some of you annoying at times, but we have strong ideals which we strive to uphold.

Can the gray part of the post be addressed?

And yes.. yes 'Stuff' does have a much larger capacity then i considered, i was sort of attaching that 'stuff' to that 'Events' as in.. IG player on DM action kinda 'stuff', not fourm posting 'stuff'. I mixed up my stuff.

is it be cause 20/- can be mythalled onto a mundane ring while the immunity can't?

Edit: Rephrased

The way the mythal bit works seems, to my untrained eye, somewhat peculiar indeed.

I agree with Xenos on the mythal bit ... it does indeed seem quite peculiar.

Xenos's Gray Matter wrote:

Why is it that, as another player posted, 15/- is 2 powers, and 20/- is 4 powers.. when the VASTLY supperior 100% immunity, is one power? (...) you dont see +4 regen costing 1 power do you? Or +5 int costing 1 power? Or perhaps +6 Cha cloaks?

The MCS is about counting powers to a certain degree. Besides that, some items concentrate a lot of power in them. Once you have one of these, it is much easier to fit in other very special item.

Best example: +30 skill gloves.
If you want +30 in a skill on your equipment with the MCS, you have to put +5 on: ring, ring, cloak, gloves, amulet, boots (or helmet). The real problem wit this approach: None of these items can go beyond their usual power limit if you still need to craft something onto them.
In contrast, +30 skill gloves let you wear that 6 powers cloak and the two 5 power rings you wanted to wear for so long but couldn't. In total you didn't just get 6 powers for the price of 1, but also gained a lot of freedom in your gear choice, meaning another 5 powers or so, easily. I guess that's why people like their +30 skill items, you win at least 10 powers with it.

Other examples:
+4 regen ring. That's 6 to 8 powers if you have to distribute it. You "win" at least 3 by wearing this item.
A +6 CHA cloak is 6 instead of 3 powers, again you win 3.

Now, damage reduction 15/- and 20/- mean a lot if you're fighting that kind of elemental/physical damage on a 4 hits / round thing. Think of it as 80 regen when standing in a mob. That should be worth 4 powers. Combine 20/- against fire with damage immunty (e.g. 50% fire immunity from elemental shield potion) and it becomes 40/- practically for free. Also, if you're hitting a CL 30 acid sheath, it would still hurt despite the 20/- resistance. Nonetheless, it's equivalent to 80 regen ...
Of course, if you only get hit with two spells, each doing 100+ damage, then damage reduction is not nearly as impressive as 100% immunity.

But if 20/- can give you almost the same effect vs. melee mobs, then the 100% immunity on a craftable ring nets you 3 powers vs. melee mobs and is a little better. That is in line with other items, I think.

If you don't think 20/- vs. Acid is useful in a PvP with a mage, then you might want to wear something else that helps you more. If you, however, sold your soul to buy a 100% acid immunity ring and the mage doesn't cast a sheath, don't cry! ;)

Disclaimer: Others would know this better than me, I'm just guessing.

Regards
Ts

I dont bring up the +30 skill gloves becouse, following the mythal line.. +1 skill is one power.. +5 skills is one power, +8 via a DC item is considered 1 power i belive, some items have +10 or more that still count as one power.. basicly giving you a very base line +X skill = 1 power. I dont compare it to Immunity rings becouse its a different beast, if +30 is worthy of costing more powers, maybe another thread need be made.

But if you follow that with the immunity rings, it dosnt work. 100% immunity is better in every way, then +20/- immunity.

EDIT; Just noticed this following bit from the MCS page.

Quote:

Damage resistances: 15/- is two powers; 20/- and higher are four powers.

Now, it clearly states that 20/- and HIGHER are four powers does it not? Would 100% not be considered higher then 20/- ?

Magnum, as far as mythaling goes, you can only mythal 5/- yourself, and that takes a Divine which isnt in the loot bin. The MCS page makes refernce to all loot in the game for its rules, and sence you can get a FGK belt that has 15/- fire on it, it lists that there so you can see its two powers.

Xenos wrote:

I dont bring up the +30 skill gloves becouse, following the mythal line.. +1 skill is one power.. +5 skills is one power, +8 via a DC item is considered 1 power i belive, some items have +10 or more that still count as one power.. basicly giving you a very base line +X skill = 1 power. I dont compare it to Immunity rings becouse its a different beast, if +30 is worthy of costing more powers, maybe another thread need be made.

But if you follow that with the immunity rings, it dosnt work. 100% immunity is better in every way, then +20/- immunity.

EDIT; Just noticed this following bit from the MCS page.

Quote:

Damage resistances: 15/- is two powers; 20/- and higher are four powers.

Now, it clearly states that 20/- and HIGHER are four powers does it not? Would 100% not be considered higher then 20/- ?

Magnum, as far as mythaling goes, you can only mythal 5/- yourself, and that takes a Divine which isnt in the loot bin. The MCS page makes refernce to all loot in the game for its rules, and sence you can get a FGK belt that has 15/- fire on it, it lists that there so you can see its two powers.

Ah, that's good to know. Thanks for that FYI.

I brought up the +30 skill gloves, because they are insanely powerful and not really in line with the MCS except if you think anybody would add +1 skill to anything when he could add +5. I thought it would take some of the wind out of discussing a minor change about some other powerful item, and I even tried to back that up with numbers.

100% immunity looks sexy, but sexyness doesn't translate into power (unless you are a sorcerer ...) Think of it as 100/-, which is true in almost any situation. So how many powers would it be if 20/- is 4 powers. Let's say 20 for 100/- (though technically it would be 4). Okay, so originally you gained 17 (you paid 3 on that ring), and now you gain 19 powers. Powerful, yes, but also very specialized.

Of course, 100/- is impossible on a self-made kit because damage resistance doesn't stack, so it doesn't make sense to say it's 20 powers (5 times 20/-). However, if you are very careful about your gear and get a 20/- vs acid and sacrifice other items to get some 5% acid immunity here and there to get 20% immunity (dunno if this is possible, might be), then you're actually taking only 30 damage versus an acid sheath. So 50% damage immunity vs. acid (more precise: acid sheath) can be obtained with 8 powers and sacrificing your gear layout, in theory at least.
Again, this is similiar to the situation with the +30 skills, which also means sacrificing most of your gear.

Oh, did I mention that I would love to see someone knowledgebale teach the MCS? Though it's mostly about knowing which items exist and knowing what kind of bonuses you want on it ... (+20 fort, +7 to two stats, freedom, SR, ... what Terra wrote above, I guess)

Regards
Ts

Ts_ wrote:

I brought up the +30 skill gloves, because they are insanely powerful and not really in line with the MCS except if you think anybody would add +1 skill to anything when he could add +5. I thought it would take some of the wind out of discussing a minor change about some other powerful item, and I even tried to back that up with numbers.

100% immunity looks sexy, but sexyness doesn't translate into power (unless you are a sorcerer ...) Think of it as 100/-, which is true in almost any situation. So how many powers would it be if 20/- is 4 powers. Let's say 20 for 100/- (though technically it would be 4). Okay, so originally you gained 17 (you paid 3 on that ring), and now you gain 19 powers. Powerful, yes, but also very specialized.

Of course, 100/- is impossible on a self-made kit because damage resistance doesn't stack, so it doesn't make sense to say it's 20 powers (5 times 20/-). However, if you are very careful about your gear and get a 20/- vs acid and sacrifice other items to get some 5% acid immunity here and there to get 20% immunity (dunno if this is possible, might be), then you're actually taking only 30 damage versus an acid sheath. So 50% damage immunity vs. acid (more precise: acid sheath) can be obtained with 8 powers and sacrificing your gear layout, in theory at least.
Again, this is similiar to the situation with the +30 skills, which also means sacrificing most of your gear.

Oh, did I mention that I would love to see someone knowledgebale teach the MCS? Though it's mostly about knowing which items exist and knowing what kind of bonuses you want on it ... (+20 fort, +7 to two stats, freedom, SR, ... what Terra wrote above, I guess)

Regards
Ts

We're not talking about how much it would be worth making it from scratch, we're referring to how much it should count as when adding other powers. As far as I can se it should be as much as 20/-

The Mythal system really isn't that good of a reference. Remember that 20/- fire resist is just as many mythal powers as 20/- slashing resist and 20/- magical resist.

As I said quite early on, we mostly follow our guts. And our guts tell us that this change is for the better.

There's no shortage of kit in the uber bin that already thumbs its nose at the Mythal system. They tend to have six Mythal powers on them, with the Epic Skills weighing in at a whopping nine*, and the Ring of Power at a crazy ten. Or they're inventory items that take up zero slots anyway.

So, we could declare Improved Evasion, 32SR and 100% element immunity to be four, five, even eight powers and they'd still be in line.

I must admit, I wonder how at least one poster in this thread would have reacted if it was the Improved Evasion ring that had been locked, and was now craftable.

*Well, one. But I consider 30 skillpoints to be six Mythal slots, and there's three left on gloves.

And to futher what Kjetta just said: the Luckstone is about 30 Mythal powers, but it's complete piece of crap.

It's about finding ways to combine 1 power + 2 powers or 1 power + 1 Power + 2 powers, or some other variation, to give you the best stat loadout for a particular situation.

Since there aren't any properties which are mutually exclusive except by virtue of how many powers they use, your objective is to find something either in a shop or in loot which has one property you find to be pretty useful.

Items that are marked plot cannot be mythalled unless they are unmarked as plot. Also, it's only equippable items that can be crafted in the MCS, stuff that you use from your inventory can't be altered in this way.

Most properties are rated at 1 power, with exceptions as noted on the MCS page (for example, use limitations = zero powers). Yes, that bonus feat that you found on an item, one power. That spell casting you found on an item, one power.

If an item has properties which you don't want, you can remove them to increase the available powers for crafting, or make the item useable at your level. But beware, once those properties have been removed, they're gone for good (unless you craft them back on).

I alwese looked at the epic items as breaking the cap, but being unalteredable. Thus specialised. If you added in rings that were 100% immunity and +4 str, it would work with how the epic loot appears to be. But you couldnt alter it at all. At least that iwould hold the the current pattern i see. If each +5 skill points is one power, rather then X skill points being one power, thats fine, make the change!

Oh well, im discussing it, and its not open for discussion anyway. Jesus Christ could make a post saying its wrong, be it wouldnt matter. Your gut says its right, my gut thinks its wrong and perhaps biased and supported by guts that have said rings already. But my gut isnt on the team, so it dosnt matter. I suppose our guts could fight about it all day, get lots of post counts at least.

And Uce, sure, unlocking it would be super, but your offering me candy to get into the van there. Of course id take it, to go from less to more? Hell ya! But im not on the team, and i hope people on the team dont think in that manner, or any gear they happen to have is going to start being able to hold more and more mythal powers. And if my ring counted as full powers, or uncraftable, id still use it and simply pick up the few lost stats somewhere else. Making a sacrfice for something, where as sacrficing 1 power for.. 100% immunity is not really a hard choice at all.

Dev Disco wrote:

How amusing... this thread proves that any change will trigger senseless bitching about the same old topics, not matter how unrelated to the actual change.

And another thing! Why can't I get any Tang around here!

Btw, the Ring of Improved Evasion is craftable.

Announcement; new horrible nerf!

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