Joined: 11 Nov 2006 Location: A Clean, Well-Lighted Place
Every change to game balance is eventually tagged as a nerf for someone, so I thought I'd just skip right to it. This time, we are nerfing everybody who hasn't got a ring of elemental immunity by making the rings of elemental immunity mythallable. There's a bunch of reasons for this nerf, mostly it's due to the BoT pages that makes the Ring of Acid Immunity slightly less sexy.
If you've got one of these rings, you might call on your favorite DM and he will unplot it for you so that you might add +3 fort candy to it.
Also, you'll note that the Kumakawa has lost it's penalty saves.
There will be no free rebuilds.
_________________ To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!
Joined: 11 Nov 2006 Location: A Clean, Well-Lighted Place
Are you mad! Of course this isn't a good thing! It's horrible! A lot of people have RPed that that their elemental rings are saturated with magical power and simply cannot take anything more, and now they are FORCED to retcon their RP as the metaphysical rules of the universe are changed with no IC explanation at all!!!!!!!
And we call ourselves a "RP server"!!! HAH!
_________________ To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!
Curiously, and I'm not trying to start an argument, why are the immunity rings getting better while RDDs took a hit with their class immunities? That was a change I never quite understood.
Joined: 11 Nov 2006 Location: A Clean, Well-Lighted Place
Neus Scario wrote:
Curiously, and I'm not trying to start an argument, why are the immunity rings getting better while RDDs took a hit with their class immunities? That was a change I never quite understood.
This could be the logic:
The Rings are available to all. Unnerfing them doesn't impact the balance between classes at all, with the exception of perhaps making it *slightly* easier on meleers who want to take on mages in PvP. And everybody knows the meleer will still lose 99% of the fights anyways.
The power of RDD is relative not only to the BoT-kitted out mages, but also everybody else, so if we made them more powerful it would negatively impact the popularity of rangers, rogues, fighters etc. And RDD is already quite the popular class.
But admittably, we mostly just follow our guts.
_________________ To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!
Joined: 26 May 2006 Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
RDDs didn't really take a hit. Before it was 100% fire immunity with 50% cold vulnerability. Now it's just 50% immunity to the elemental damage depending on what colour you are.
As for the immunity rings, that isn't so impacting. Not everyone and their dog has one so to speak.
Curiously, and I'm not trying to start an argument, why are the immunity rings getting better while RDDs took a hit with their class immunities? That was a change I never quite understood.
If I was to take a guess, I'd say it was because only shadow, red/gold and white/silver dragonkin have that balanced immunity/vulnerability thing going on.
Thus, the options were:
1) Do it in strict accordance to PnP lore and grant the 100% immunities, and only penalise the fire/cold/negative themed ones. Watch as new RDDs are all made as one of the something-for-nothing type, and wince as some existing RDDs try to migrate to those types "for RP reasons"
2) Arbitrarily choose vulnerabilities for the acid/electric scalies, hope no one minds that they don't make intuitive or lore sense.
3) Give them all the right type of immunity, but only at 50%.
4) Give a couple of my characters level 40, LETO them sky high and give me permission to grief all RDD characters without mercy or pause.
Now, plainly option 4 is the best, but I'd have plumped for 3 as second best.
1) Do it in strict accordance to PnP lore and grant the 100% immunities, and only penalise the fire/cold/negative themed ones. Watch as new RDDs are all made as one of the something-for-nothing type, and wince as some existing RDDs try to migrate to those types "for RP reasons".
Okay, this makes a bit more sense. I would've gone with #2, personally, but I understand why it was done now. Just the cost of progress.
Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
I personally vote for Uce's option 4.
What I'm actually wondering though, more than anything.....is why exactly is the change being made? Is there a reason the already nice immunity rings are being made yet more powerful?
I've rather always thought it better to keep the more powerful loot items non-mythallable. I kinda always wondered why it is that the epic skill loot items were mythallable, when it rather plainly seemed they ought not to be.
It's rather strange to see an utterly random seeming *increase* to power level, and while I don't much care that it's been done, I just wonder if there was any particular reason for it?
_________________ Role with the Punches...
Elan: A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everyone knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!
The Rings are available to all. Unnerfing them doesn't impact the balance between classes at all, with the exception of perhaps making it *slightly* easier on meleers who want to take on mages in PvP. And everybody knows the meleer will still lose 99% of the fights anyways.
Unless they also get the new 100% magic immunity rings. Or the Timestop Immunity rings.
_________________ Named Most Influential Character, Amia Awards 2011
Joined: 11 Nov 2006 Location: A Clean, Well-Lighted Place
@Cori
It's partially because the BoT tipped the scales enough to reach a conclusion in an old discussion about this. Elemental Immunity Rings are mostly useful for meleers taking on mages in PvP, and they need all the help they can get, we figured.
The timing is a bit random, but isn't it always?
_________________ To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!
But... but... this ruins my great potion brewing scheme for my druid! Who wants to buy over priced potions of elemental protection when they can just get rings?! I demand compensation and subsidies for the Amian Potion Brewer Association, preferably as a new organization modeled after the Common Agricultural Policy in the EU! If French farmers can whine their way into getting loads of money, then my druid should be able to do so as well!
On a side note, when do you plan to make pure class druids useful?
_________________ "Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II
Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
To be honest: there really is not real timing behind it. It was on the list for months, but I kept forgetting to do it. I am quite sure it was already decided to do this before I even thought of doing the RDD stuff.
About the RDD reasoning: there is no such thing as PnP lore on RDDs. All we got is a mess of contradicting half-arsed comments in a few DnD books. Which is a good thing, because it allows you to do the job right yourself.
So, we got a class that has the potential of making you up to a half-dragon (you cannot become more than that if you mix dragon and non-dragon bloodlines). It makes sense to give you up to half the dragon's immunities from that point of view, and we're nice so we gave you the full 50%.
Dont want to start an argument here but one could argue that that page should never have been added. It made the fire/frost giants even easier to solo and this change, in response to unnecessary beefing up of acid sheath, just uber-ed up those people with enough time on their hands to farm epic loot as they can now add +2 strength or whatever onto their rings.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
Blackdragon12121 wrote:
Anything but a nerf really...
Dont want to start an argument here but one could argue that that page should never have been added. It made the fire/frost giants even easier to solo and this change, in response to unnecessary beefing up of acid sheath, just uber-ed up those people with enough time on their hands to farm epic loot as they can now add +2 strength or whatever onto their rings.
One could argue with that, but the fact is it was added.
_________________ 2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
My pure sorc now has perma freedom, improved evasion, 32 spellresistance +12 charisma +5 constitution, +7 dexterity, +3 regeneration, a ninthspell slot for sorcs, +30 concentration and 100% immunity to fire.
And with spells constitution and dexterity is maxed aswell a pink iounstone included in the buffing.
Untop of that she doesn't have any helm so in mythalable slots she has 3 to spare.
Guess that means I can pimp her gear even more, pimping her fort to the divine. Do we really need that? Yes, I'm gonna whine against this because its only epiclooters and lucky people who got them 100% immunity rings.
_________________ Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.
I don't understand why this change was needed, now those rare exclusive ring are even more powerful.
Kjetta wrote:
mostly it's due to the BoT pages that makes the Ring of Acid Immunity slightly less sexy.
Its a bot page and when stuff goes to pvp I'm pretty sure most people will have acid since they didnt tune their book to fire or cold. What does that matter anyway? Its either KDspam or dev if you even get a hit on the mage before you're crucified.
And this also makes the Ring of electric immunity very crappy. Should I add so the sheathe can be electric to then? Its about the same reasoning so I don't see why not.
But what really grinds my gears is that the rings are EPIC loot, and epic loot are only obtained with luck or contentious grinding of epic bosses. Don't make epic gear stronger, they don't need more reasons to grind or more power at that.
If you want something against the acid sheathe you grab one of those amulets that has 20/- DR against acid and you can survive enough hits to score a devcrit. The 20/- DR only exists for cold and acid so far.
Thought we didnt make changes for pvp reasons, or are we planning on adding critters that has the sheathe so they're only killable if you happen to have a ring of acid immunity?
This doesnt make any sense.
_________________ Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.
Joined: 11 Nov 2006 Location: A Clean, Well-Lighted Place
Terra_777 wrote:
I don't understand why this change was needed, now those rare exclusive ring are even more powerful.
Kjetta wrote:
mostly it's due to the BoT pages that makes the Ring of Acid Immunity slightly less sexy.
Its a bot page and when stuff goes to pvp I'm pretty sure most people will have acid since they didnt tune their book to fire or cold. What does that matter anyway? Its either KDspam or dev if you even get a hit on the mage before you're crucified.
And this also makes the Ring of electric immunity very crappy. Should I add so the sheathe can be electric to then? Its about the same reasoning so I don't see why not.
But what really grinds my gears is that the rings are EPIC loot, and epic loot are only obtained with luck or contentious grinding of epic bosses. Don't make epic gear stronger, they don't need more reasons to grind or more power at that.
If you want something against the acid sheathe you grab one of those amulets that has 20/- DR against acid and you can survive enough hits to score a devcrit. The 20/- DR only exists for cold and acid so far.
Thought we didnt make changes for pvp reasons, or are we planning on adding critters that has the sheathe so they're only killable if you happen to have a ring of acid immunity?
This doesnt make any sense.
It wasn't done as an attempt to balance out the PvP scene. It was a more a matter of clearing up the mythallable/unmythallable disparity that existed in the Epic Loot bin. Then we asked ourselves: "Is there a good reason to keep them unmythallable?"
We landed on no, because it would hurt PvP happy mages the most, and we like that.
_________________ To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!
Keep in mind the vulnerabilities for half-dragons was also homebrew on Amia.
Dragon disciples don't have the same Draconis Fundamentum that pure dragons do, this is what makes them true elemental force beings. Why Half-dragons are allowed to breathe an element without this isn't really known to me or understood.
However thats the only anatomical conundrum that they have, because people wear dragon-scale armor for its lightness and immunities.
_________________ Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
A half-dragon that is Large or larger has wings and can fly at twice its base land speed (maximum 120 ft.) with average maneuverability. A half-dragon that is Medium or smaller does not have wings.
No wings for anyone? Is that what you want?
Dwagin wrote:
Keep in mind the vulnerabilities for half-dragons was also homebrew on Amia.
I suppose we could just as easily remove the Acid Sheath BoT page, since it was a (censored) stupid addition in the first place.
I didn't read anything after this, because I agree with it so much. This is probably the only time I'll ever agree with Mago, so flock around and catch a glimpse of how the world -could- be!
We landed on no, because it would hurt PvP happy mages the most, and we like that.
How is that? My mage for example now has 2 more slots to fill up with saves which means a devver needs to hit her more before she rolls low. Since its a fire immunity ring the meleers flame weapon scrolls won't work. I got nothing against nerfing mages but this isn't nerfing mages at all.
The thing I'm against is boosting the epic loot since it promotes more farming.
And about the sheathe; the additions are cold and fire, those two elements are easier to protect yourself against then acid which is why they got a new visual so you can quickly swap on your firegiants belt or whatever.
But sure, if the team votes for its removal so be it, acid is still the best choice in there unless you're going frost/fire giants.
_________________ Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.
What the devil are you talking about? Crack open the Draconomicon, the Monster's Manual, or hell, open the toolset and examine a dragon's hide for it's properties. A Blue Dragon being electric immune is sure as hell not homebrew...
and it was the DMs, not "Disco and Terra".
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
A level 30 caster with Acid Sheath will do d6 + 60 damage.
Afraid a Fire Giant King belt won't help much against that.
And Terra... I don't really get how you choose to make comparisons.
You're actually using your 'powerbuilt' (lulz) fey sorceress that apparently has a shitload of epic loot (from farming, I take it, which you apparently despise. Oh, the dubbel standard is overhwelming), as a reference for comparison?
Acid Sheath is one of -the- most powerful spells in PvP. A smart player wouldn't die from a dev crit (or any other crit for that matter) using Acid Sheath, and add some cheese onto that which I won't mention, effectively makes acid sheath a bitch for -any- meleer to go up against.
As I already said.
We could just as easily remove the BoT page.
The DMs just thought it would be appropiate for the immunity rings to be decently useable. Which was still a good enough 'fix' to it.
Overall, this is a slight nerf to casters. (who don't happen to have your specific build and awesomeness stack of loot)
Last time i used the ice version of mestils it didnt even have a visual effect. Its PVP gold dust as the opponent doesnt even know its on unless they've skill dumped spell craft
To be honest dont see this as a problem, for a mjaority of this servers melee players it is an achievement to get close enough to the mage to kd/dev them.
Mord, dominate
Mord, Thunderclap
Mord ,Bigby
Mord, confuse
Mord, fear
Mord, wail
Then they are up against the acid sheath, they have to hit through greaterstonskin, premonition. All the while they have a familair and epic summon to deal with.
Note none of the above includes instant win, timestop, so to be honest how does this actually affect mages?
Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
Gers wrote:
Kjetta wrote:
The Rings are available to all. Unnerfing them doesn't impact the balance between classes at all, with the exception of perhaps making it *slightly* easier on meleers who want to take on mages in PvP. And everybody knows the meleer will still lose 99% of the fights anyways.
Unless they also get the new 100% magic immunity rings. Or the Timestop Immunity rings.
Time Stop immunity?!?! ::waits patiently for the Dev Crit Immunity rings::
Joined: 30 Aug 2008 Location: Some planet known as Earth
Blackdragon12121 wrote:
Last time i used the ice version of mestils it didnt even have a visual effect. Its PVP gold dust as the opponent doesnt even know its on unless they've skill dumped spell craft
You glow white, but with other buff's on it's not super-noticeable.
*rant below*
Oh and eletric bot page for acid sheath *thumbs up* the fire and ice...those can go in my opinion, near useless to the original acid form. Oh except for fire/ice giants...the bot page of ice/fire is for ice/fire giants...there's really no other practical usefulness imo. when comparing to acid. Unless said person against joe mage has an acid immunity ring... <---rings of 100%? which I think are totally unbalanced...50% anyone? *sage nod* Mythalable and 50% *thumbs up* sounds like decent epic loot to me. Too weak? ..add some universal saving throws or some such.
Assume whatever you wish Mago. I'm talking about a character of mine which I rarely play nowdays anyway. Most of her gear is gained though buying (Yes, you could actually by epic loot for gold once upon the time) and trading. Also one of the reasons I despise farming because it takes epic loot to get epic loot.
And about the rings, maybe it doesn't promote more bossfarming, but it certainly makes them more juicy then before and in my opinion it doesn't need more power. Well, guess I shouldn't be whining, I can now mythal on saves on my fire immunity ring hide in mestrils and watch the devcrit rolls fail.
Its a nice change but it does not nerf mages, it actually makes them more resistant and a mage is more likely to have a immunity ring then avarage-Joe-melee.
Acid sheathe is 14th on the breach list so its not impossible to remove with a greater spellbreach scrolls.
All I wanted is that epic gear doesn't get stronger for mages, but its hard to make epic gear better without affecting mages since mages has more bosskilling juice then any class.
_________________ Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.
I suppose we could just as easily remove the Acid Sheath BoT page, since it was a (censored) stupid addition in the first place.
I wouldnt care if it was taken out, so long as the Immunity rings were takin out in the process.
Kjetta wrote:
We landed on no, because it would hurt PvP happy mages the most, and we like that.
Thats a pritty nasty pile of bull shit right there. Not every caster is pvp happy, some dont want to PvP usually, what you did, is helped the PvP happy players with their immunity rings, be even more powerful. Be the melee or not.
Where is the cost/reward in this? You mean to tell me that 100% immunity to a stat is only one fucking power? While +3 regen is 4 powers? +5 Enchant is 4 powers? +3 all saves is 4 powers? Its fine if the rings are now mythalable, but 100% immunity should be NOTHING short of 4 powers. The only people that would argue that, i bet, is the guys with one of each type of ring, that now get to walk around with both on at all times, without adversly affecting their kit in the slightest. Goin to be nice when players can boast 100% resistances to two elemental types huh?
But like most of these nerfs/buffs and their corasponding threads, this is just a chance for some ass hole to say "Haha!" and comes off as little more then a slap to the face to the players it adversly affects. Why are these posts made? Nothing said here matters at all, all the melee based immunity ring loaded members of the team have this one locked in for life, Disco takes it out, i bet someone will off him. Stop making these threads, and stoping teasing the community about things that adversly affect them like your some kinda damn child. Im sorry your picked on in school, but dont bring built up nerdrage here.
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::waits patiently for the Dev Crit Immunity rings::
