So.. tank CON, too, since I'm taking toughness anyways, and boost CHA to 14? This leaves me with average HP, still, better saves, better damage, better AC, and.. well, yeah, the ability to take the divines.

Good call, Acrid. Thanks for that.

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Espiel Callahan

np man!

hm, personaly, i would make a Bard 20 / BG 4 / Fighter 6 Dev Crit Divine might/shield that still have blind Fight, Curse Song, extend spell, improved critical, lasting inspiration and Armor Skin in it.

The AB will go easely around 55 fully buff, the AC reaching 70 and you got haste all day long. WIS only 8 tho and HP between 200-250.

Im actualy working on this build to make a drow.. close to impossible, having hard time here >.<

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By Jaydn

That's definately a stacked build. However, I'm looking for more of a BG-heavy build that relies on the actual BG-ness and BG abilities. A real Blackguard, if you will. That's why I went with 19 BG instead of just the 16 necessary for the Summon Epic Fiendish Servant. It feels more complete.

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Espiel Callahan

Am I the only one bothered by two preepic feats in epic? They are good feats ... but maybe you could plan for that rapid shot item (needs UMD, I think) and move Blind Fight to pre-epic?

Then take Great DEX and drop base DEX by one, which should give +2 INT and +1 STR. That would turn those mythal slots you lose on the item* into 31 skill points and +1 STR, which seems like a good deal IF you need more skills. Or maybe +2 CON and +1 STR?

*) 1 mythal slot for the feat, and probably another 1 or 2 for starting from scratch instead of reworking an existing item with slightly better bonuses.

Not sure if it's worth it, but I think it's an interesting option.

Regards
Ts

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Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"

Blindfight and the Divines are in the same ballpark as Devcrit and Epic Dodge, if one should be so foolish as to ask me. Yes, it's annoying to take them in epic, but they're really needing taken.

I agree for the Blind Fight part.

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By Jaydn

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Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

You know weapon finesse doesnt work with Scimitar. Which mean your AB will be crappy. Take Rapier instead, oh and weapon finesse also.

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By Jaydn

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Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

Yes, but im curious about what others think. Personaly, i dislike the ranger class so my advices arent so much accurate on this one.

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By Jaydn

Well then, this is enough to start my character atleast, all i need to do now is finish his Bio and Background.

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Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

It's a DEX-base melee chap without Epic Dodge. No.

If you need a build for that PM Drymouth, he had one, first going 20bard/4BG/6RDD but I kept teasing him going less then 10RDD was for fags so he switched it to 6 fighter.
Only lost him a bit of AC or AB i think... due to the fact 6 fighter taken in epic opened 3 bonus feats, and he swapped his standard bonus feats to +3STR that he would get for free from RDD (needed 1 bonus feat for lasting inspiration)

But i'm too lazy to do the math and he has the build in his vault and on his PC, so... In fact I might have it on my laptop still but I'm too lazy to boot that unless i'm traveling somewhere

Not a drow though, was a Tuigan i think, like 90% of the human BG's

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Click here for the navis & lukavi portraitpacks preview & download.

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Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

Correct! that build is only possible on STR subrace. I started with Tuigan (taking Cleric/CoT instead) but remade it on wood elf for RP reasons losing HP and skills. It's my best melee guy so far. I can post it all if you want.

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By Jaydn

Nah, I will ask drymouth if he didn't store it on my laptop when he was using it...
Or... it can't be that hard anyway... you're semi featstarved due to the dev crit anyway and standard bard/melee-build feats after all... so that solves half the build already.

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Click here for the navis & lukavi portraitpacks preview & download.

yup, since i got cleric, Divine might/shield also goes in there.
oh wait, same for BG >.<

hm, if anybody got a special Bard BG to feat on a drow, feel free 8P

EDIT: im personaly thinking Bard 23 / BG 4 / PM 1
was at first Bard 20 but go 23 since tight on feats, would be without Dev Crit wich worry me a little as Dev is awsome PvM.

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By Jaydn

I could use some pre-epic feat advise for my currently lvl 6 druid. So far he has Extend spell, combat casting, brew potion and Zen Archery (go slings!), and his stats are wis 20, cha 8, the rest 12. So what shouldn he take on his remaining pre-epic feats? he will ofcourse be a caster druid, and all stat points and epic feats will go to wisdom for Dragon Shape at 30, buta side from teh obvious maximise spell feat, what else?

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"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II

Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.

Maybe I missed it, but what favored enemies work best for PvE, here?

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Gahnn Bluetusk
Aleksandr Vespermouth II
"Malnutrition is scarier than any beastie."

Advice from this and other threads:





(Another poster disagrees with the usefulness of Favored Enemy: Dragons.)







So the consensus seems to be that the best favored enemies for PvE are (not in order of importance): undead, giant, aberration, outsiders, and reptiles.

Have to pick you up on this, though I hope I misunderstood your meaning.

Level 8 Bardsong requires 15 Perform. You keep this song until level 11.

Level 11 Bardsong requires 18 Perform. This is the first song that gives AC.

Level 16 Bardsong requires 30 perform. I don't need to say anything about this one.

Perform has no other function than as a pre-req for your songs. You have to meet both pre-reqs, Bard level and Perform skill, to get the songs - if you have 3 perform on a level 30 pure Bard, you are singing a level 1 Bardsong. A level 10 Bard with 30 Perform is still singing the level 8 song, not the level 16 song - it doesn't matter if he has 15, 20, 30 or 100 Perform, he is still singing the level 8 song.

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"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."

So, does anyone have any suggestions for the BG build I posted on 17?

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Espiel Callahan

It's iffy. You can't get tumble dump and EWS with 19 BG, and you've taken Improved Crit: Bastard Sword twice.

EDIT: Personally though, I found it having too many feats pre-epic and sorely lacking in epic. I just made a build right now, FTR6/Rogue5/BG19 that's got all your needed/wanted feats, 9d6 sneak, and +2 more con/cha at the cost of only armor skin. Imo that's a fair trade-off.

[quote="ticketBard(9), Arcane Archer(15), Blackguard(4), Drow
STR: 13
DEX: 19 (26)
CON: 12
WIS: 8
INT: 10
CHA: 16
[/quote]

Looking at these stats I wondered if it'd have the skill points needed for UMD/Tumble/(5)Hide/(15)Perform/Spot and Disc to be viable hence my stat choice of:

STR: 14
DEX: 18 (24)
CON: 8
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 17 (18)

I thought with these stats you get more skill points. lose 28hp, lose 1 ab but gain 1 more divine dmg + saves. Imo with your AB already at 52 self buffed isn't it more important to get that extra bit of dmg/saves?
Con is already low on this build even with 12 con it still only comes in somewhere under 250 hp base so being a bit nit picky whats the difference?

Also someone mentioned only needing 15 Perform for Bard Song 8? Sorry I thought you got more ab/dmg bonus by doing more perform didn't know otherwise XD

_________________
Must I at length the Sword of Justice draw?
Oh curst Effects of necessary Law!
How ill my Fear they by my Mercy scan,
Beware the Fury of a Patient Man
-John Dryden, 1681

12 Int is enough to give you your UMD/Tumble/Disc/Spot, the 5 Hide, and the 15 in perform. Even got an excess 11 points in my configuration. Con is always good.

About the bard song, here's the link to the table:
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Bard_song

Err... with the build I posted, I can, and did get EWS and Tumbledump. And the double feat was just where I had pasted the corrected build from my save file - I've edited it, now. I appreciate you catching that, though.

Now, a FTR 6 / Rogue 5 / BG 19 which has two more Constitution and Charisma and still has Devastating Critical and has more feats, somehow? How would you go about sacrificing one feat for four ability points, unless it's a subrace? Please explain.

EDIT: Except, I'm apparently a moron who can't do simple arithmetic and doesn't realize that 10 epic levels, 9 being blackguard and 1 being rogue and 1 being fighter, means 11, thus impossible. Damnit.

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Espiel Callahan

There's a rapid shot item in Amia!?

Rogue(5), Fighter(6), Blackguard(19), Human

STR: 16 (26)
DEX: 8
CON: 10
WIS: 14
INT: 10
CHA: 16

01: Rogue(1): Power Attack, Cleave
02: Fighter(1): Weapon Proficiency Exotic
03: Fighter(2): Blind Fight, Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
04: Fighter(3): STR+1, (STR=17)
05: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization: Bastard Sword
06: Fighter(5): Knockdown
07: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
08: Blackguard(1): STR+1, (STR=18)
09: Blackguard(2): Improved Critical: Bastard Sword, {Smite Good}
10: Blackguard(3)
11: Blackguard(4)
12: Blackguard(5): STR+1, Divine Might, (STR=19)
13: Rogue(3): {Uncanny Dodge I}
14: Blackguard(6)
15: Blackguard(7): Divine Shield
16: Blackguard(8): STR+1, (STR=20)
17: Rogue(4)
18: Blackguard(9): Toughness
19: Blackguard(10)
20: Fighter(6): STR+1, Great Cleave, (STR=21)
21: Blackguard(11): Great Strength I, (STR=22)
22: Blackguard(12)
23: Blackguard(13): Epic Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
24: Blackguard(14): STR+1, Overwhelming Critical: Bastard Sword, (STR=23)
25: Blackguard(15)
26: Blackguard(16): Epic Fiendish Servant
27: Blackguard(17): Great Strength II, (STR=24)
28: Blackguard(18): STR+1, (STR=25)
29: Rogue(5)
30: Blackguard(19): Great Strength III, Devastating Critical: Bastard Sword, (STR=26)

Raw stats:
Hitpoints: 310
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 21/16/16
AB (max, naked): +35/+30+25/+20
Damage (max, naked): 1d10+8 STR+2 WS+9d6 sneak (17-20x2)
AC (mundane Full Plate/Shield only): 15/26

Skills: Total 147
Discipline 33(41),
Hide 5(4),
Tumble 30(29),
UMD 32(35),
remaining skillpoints 47

Pretty much, dropping armor skin opens up a feat slot for a great ability increase, which eases up your initial ability point distribution.

Do tell if I missed something.

Edit: added sneak damage and crit range

What is the need for the 32 tumble, if I might ask?

I'm considering modifying it to the general BG 16 / Fighter 12 / Rogue 2 concept, and picking up some of those bonus feats in Epic. Epic Prowess and Epic Fortitude are looking good.

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Espiel Callahan

T'was UMD that was 32, not Tumble.

Why do you need 32 UMD? You could be quite safe dropping 8 points from that easily, if not more.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Well, it's pretty much an example; It's not like you *need* it at that much. Personal preference if you would.

Dump points in MS. I know my drow catches a huge number of sneakers out that way.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Since the character has 8 dexterity, and only takes the minimum 5 ranks of hide needed for Blackguard, I don't think that the character is intended to be a sneak.

Winya, weapons shop. I just checked it, it's a cloak with just that bonus feat on it and no use restriction.

But sacrificing the cloak slot is iffy ... There are some nice cloaks with 6 or more mythal powers on them. That rapid shot cloak will be a lot weaker.

Regards
Ts

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Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"

Yarp, the cloak slot is pretty sacred; either it's your Fort+4, the cornerstone of any saves gearset, or you're a CHA chappy and it's your Nymph+5.

It's fine to swap other cloaks in PvMob; I habitually use the Lizardskin or Vestments of Faith, but for the big uglies, I'd take the feat to free that slot.

Or it's a cloak in -WINYA- and unavailable to -drow-. lol

_________________
Must I at length the Sword of Justice draw?
Oh curst Effects of necessary Law!
How ill my Fear they by my Mercy scan,
Beware the Fury of a Patient Man
-John Dryden, 1681

Ask/kill someone to get one of those cloaks?

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Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"

Or you're stpuid like me and you have a Cloak of Displacement you should be spamming to high hells every encounter but you forget so it just sits in your pack.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Who the hell could be arsed to do that when you might just as well use 7 minutes lasting Improved Invisibility scrolls/wands in PvM? In PvP you simply won't have the time to spam that cloak.

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UCE THIS, YOU COW.

... Torin doesn't have UMD, Opustus.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

You have played him long enough to have 4 of those lovely top-secret Orbs.

_________________

UCE THIS, YOU COW.

The only boss I can actively solo is the Fire Giant King, and I have to juggle DMing and doing things with my time when logged in that are not mindlessly running Brog.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Sold that cloack for 20k eheh, hate bad epic drop >.<

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By Jaydn

Another AA question for buildmonkeys (read: Ruce the mighty):

I am torn between keeping my half-elf Bard/Fighter/AA, and making a half-elf Ranger/something/AA. I wish for this character to have good enogh stealth capabilities to sneak past any monster without old True Seeing, and good enough spot to be a good anti-SD sniper. But most of all, it must also be good at what archers should be good at: dishing out steady damage at long range. As i see it:

Fighter base pros:
- +6 damage to every shot from WS and EWS
- extra feats
- if bard, tumble and UMD dump, and some minor spells

cons:
- useless stealth for the first 15 levels or so
- likewise with spot
- lacks the good 'Archer feel', atleast for me

Ranger base pros:
- Good stealth and spot all the way
- Animal companion which is nice for leveling until lvl 12 ish
- Access to some sexy ranger/druid only gear in the first 15 levels
- Some self-buff spells that can be usefull, cats, camo, etc
- TWF and ITWF, not very usefull, but still..
- potentially very high AE skill
- Feels better, for me atleast

cons:
- no weapons spezialisation
- fewer feats

So my big question is: Just how big difference does EWS make in the long run? Is it worth taking fighter just for that and some extra feats?

And if further interest: how would you best build an anti SD archer that still dishes out enough damage to be usefull in a party?

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"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II

Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.

Oh great and wise build monkeys! I beg your assistance!

Remember the question about the drow shifter/assassin? Well, I tried using drow and have decided I don't like them. Something about being an elf, dunno why, keep having dreams about movie-Elrond glaring at me and that's a nasty glare.

Decided to switch to a Svirfneblin instead. This was also motivated by the failure of my Gnome Illusionist and Halfling Monk, so... any advice on feats?

5 levels of druid will not be RPed as anything but growing up 'wild' in the Underdark and the spells will be either dumped or RPed as an addition to the default Svirfneblin abilities.

Will be devoted to Underdark shapes and to oozes and jellies. Wanted to make him a part of the Ghaunadaur cult that seems to be going well. If he is a shifter then he will hopefully be a bit of a spy/assassin which will be hard with the Cha. beating I'd take.

So... throw it at me... I'd like to take as many Epic shapes as I can realistically; including Undead shape, Outsider shape... Construct Shape reskinned as a Bone Ooze perhaps? Shower me with your wisdom, i need something that will give me moderate fighting abilities as well as 8 levels of Assassin.

The highest of the high Spot beasties are so keen of sight that you'd need to break your build in order to sneak them, unless you go the Bard route and use Curse Song to get another effective dozen points or so.

Detecting SDs is all about percentage of rolls; http://klubkev.org/~ksulliva/ralph/dnd-stats

Since equal rolls mean the detector has found the sneak, you might have to add the Lose and Tie columns together.

If you've got 20 less detect skill than their stealth skill, then you will eventually see them, but only if they roll 1 and you roll 20, so once every 400 rounds. As you can see from that table, if you've got 10 less, that drops to about once every seven rounds.

Now, for anti-eavesdropping in RP, once every ten or twenty rounds is fine; you probably won't say anything secret in that time.

For actual combat, even one in five rounds is going to see you get whupped; that means four times out of five, the SD is going to pop out of HiPS and Sneak-shank you. It's not impossible to get such a huge Spot score that the numbers shift around and you are more likely to detect, but only four of those builds are viable fighters. Everyone else gets to about 103 Spot then starts to suck, badly. Quality SDs sit pretty at 108 indoors, 112 outdoors. 70% and 83% succesful sneak/round, which means they win.
This is why SDs are only threatened by other SDs, high-Spot mages, and those four builds. The other SDs and high-Spot mages can simply hit HiPS or GS and wait till they reacquire. SD drops Sneaks, mage drops Bigby.

The four builds are: pure-ish Bard with a Spot dump, pure-ish Ranger who has the SD's race as Favoured Enemy, WIS-base Monk/AA, melee Cleric with a Spot-dump. Those things can get to 110-115 Spot, and have the AB (plus Haste, Divine Power, Rapid Shot or dualwielding) that you need to punch past Epic Dodge. Those tricks give the SD a doubletap of top AB, which is a pain in the balls for an Epic Dodger. Mostly we reckon on Epic Dodge meaning another 5AC because the top one is the only one that's likely to hit and it's being tossed out.

Those Spot scores turn the tables on the SD, so unless they're a Ranger/SD outdoors, (and your Ranger fighting one of them in anger is unlikely, I'd guess), they'll fail to HiPS about 60-80% of the time. Very bad news, since all but the best-dressed SDs have crap for AC/saves in their Hide kit.

Now, Ranger/AA with a WIS base is presumably jumping out of the screen at you at this point, but unless you take the Monk/Wiz/AA option, your AC is really going to stink, which will not be fun; it makes you completely dependent on a party. That said, HiPS is used as such a winbutton crutch by 98% of SD players that if you kick it out from under them, they'll be so busy picking their jaw off the keyboard that they'll barely have time to fill their nappies and scream HAX before you waste them. A 'dancer player who's sharp enough to have a Plan B? Probably going to win, sorry.

Can't go wrong on 15+AA levels, really. Between the sexy AA-only arrows and the flat damage boost from high AA, the worst you can do is still comparable to your average onehandering Ftr-with-EWS chap(not as good crits, of course), only you get much better on-Hits. And you get at least one more round of combat than them. Given most party vs spawn battles only last half a dozen rounds, that really matters.

Ftr is undeniably better for the flat damage, but only a moron would say no to a high level AA's company even without it. What Ranger10 also brings you is a +3 Favoured Enemy Spot bonus, and at least two races of them. If you're going to delay Ranger till epic, then Ranger10 might be Epic Weapon Focus, so you might only get two races, but the bonus will still be +3 for them.

I think I'd be inclined to go Ranger9/Bard1/AA10 into Ranger10/Bard2/AA18, which looks buttugly since you miss out on that AA19, but in exchange you get the Bard2 Tumbledump at 27. Ranger10 would be taken last for a final top up of Discipline and AE, and on the assumption your guys is either a Winyan or a Grovie, I'd only take Elf and Outsider as Favoured Enemy and use the Ranger10 for another feat.

The big question is whether to go WIS or DEX. DEX base gives you 57AC if you get caught in melee and have to whip out the ol' towershield.

On WIS base that drops to around 51 with a base DEX of 14, and thence to a miserable 44 with the bow. The Spot score is 110, on 26 base WIS buffed +50 skills and +12WIS and wearing an Alertness item, without any pre-epic feats, so if you can spare them, you might squeeze 115, and FE to 118. Obviously, the DEX base, assuming 14 WIS, loses seven points there.

I'm no builder but I'm quite certain you'll want to make full use of the kobold Shadow Dancer shapeform whilst performing sneak attacks...and epic drider is a nice shape too (you get it at level 15).

I'm guessing you'll need druid5/15shifter/8assassin since you NEED 5 levels of druid to go shifter and you WANT 8 assassin levels.

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

You never fail to impress me with your immense knowledge ruce, thanks. I got one question though: just how useful is discipline for a dexer AA? As far as I have understood, you wont be really able to resist anything even as a str build without the epic discipline gloves, and being a ranger you get alot of class skills and painfully few skill points. As a half elf with 14 int, he will only get 6 skill points per level, 3 of them going to stealth and spot, 1 to AE, 1 to tumble, and then there is one to spare that I'd rather use for set trap or heal, unless you can convince me that heal and set trap are useless compared to discipline.

Also, when taking bard, would charisma matter at all? His bard song will be crap with two levels, and spells non-existent anyway, no?

_________________
"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II

Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.

I'd rather hack out both my kidneys with a rusty spoon then cook them to save the life of a starving child murderer than take a Bard with less than 10 CHA, but I concede that those are 2 points wasted, from a numbers side.

You can't be an anti-SD chap who stands his ground without full Discipline. Remember, their AB is rarely much above 40, so 60 Discipline will see you right. It's a pain in the arse to put gearset together for Hide/MS/Discipline/Spot, but it's possible. Easier for you, since your primary killingstick is the Hunter's Bow, woot.

I'd be inclined to skimp Hide/MS to pay for full Discipline and healthy Set Trap. You'll never be a viable cornersneak anyway, but there's 3.5 good values of Hide/MS:

1) None. Save the gear/points for other stuff. Typically used by tanks.
2) ~50. Keeps you clear of people with zero detect ranks, including Clerics with True Seeing on.
2.5) ~70-85. Keep you clear of people with no ranks but are at +50 from buffs anyway, or do have ranks but aren't wearing their Spot gear. Frank managed to sneak Eary with this. Made me smile. Anyway, this is only half a value since it's a very narrow niche.
3.5) As much as you can squeeze. This is only for SDs, really.

You can take 20 or so ranks in Hide/MS and sit at 2 or 2.5 easily enough.

Set Trap? Well, I've only been able to make it work when I had a minute or two to myself, and in that situation you can swap in gear anyway. If my assumption is right and you intend to be a sentry in Winya or the Grove, then you have all the time you need to rig the place skyhigh. Remember, One With The Land and Rogue's Cunning stack to +14, and you only need 45 to set epics when out of combat, so mid-20's for ranks will see you fine. That stil lets you set the Acids on the fly, and those things aren't exactly a joke either.