Why rage and use expertise? Suppose you could but i never would. early on, only rage when its one on one, at max 2. That minus -2 AC to rage really kills early on.
im thinking a ranger/fighter/WM (ranger for RP reasons as well as for free ambi + TWF) who uses a G.Sword and two longswords (also for RP), any suggests?
im thinking a ranger/fighter/WM (ranger for RP reasons as well as for free ambi + TWF) who uses a G.Sword and two longswords (also for RP), any suggests?
Meaning he got a greatsword, then switch to 2 longsword, not 1 GSword 1 longsword.
Tormak means build-wise. Focusing on both Greatsword and Longsword, getting the feats to make using them both worthwhile, uses up the rather sparse other feats that can be used more effectively for other things.
Meaning he got a greatsword, then switch to 2 longsword, not 1 GSword 1 longsword.
Tormak means build-wise. Focusing on both Greatsword and Longsword, getting the feats to make using them both worthwhile, uses up the rather sparse other feats that can be used more effectively for other things.
Meaning he got a greatsword, then switch to 2 longsword, not 1 GSword 1 longsword.
Tormak means build-wise. Focusing on both Greatsword and Longsword, getting the feats to make using them both worthwhile, uses up the rather sparse other feats that can be used more effectively for other things.
DoomKnight wrote:
(also for RP)
RP build isnt powerbuild 8P
If he didn't care about the build, then he wouldn't be posting in the build topic.
Yarp. Ftr16/WM13/Rogue1 is the slickest. My advice is Devcrit on the twohander and leave the onehander alone, except for Weapon Focus. Make the onehander a x3 weapon, since that works best on just WF and WM7.
That's within the context of twohandering, mind. Overall, it's better to sword'n'board it. Wish it wasn't, but it is.
That said, when twohander works, it works so well as to be hilarious.
Joined: 21 Jul 2007 Location: The Drone Star State
If you're not going epic ranger, there's not much incentive to go beyond one level, I think, build wise. You can still call yourself a ranger with just one level and, if you take it in epic, you can pick up EWF without sparing a fighter or general feat on it as well as dump AE.
Below epic, you miss out on Bane of Enemies, a tough animal companion and Blade Thirst's full potential.
_________________ Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess
Yarp. Ftr16/WM13/Rogue1 is the slickest. My advice is Devcrit on the twohander and leave the onehander alone, except for Weapon Focus. Make the onehander a x3 weapon, since that works best on just WF and WM7.
That's within the context of twohandering, mind. Overall, it's better to sword'n'board it. Wish it wasn't, but it is.
That said, when twohander works, it works so well as to be hilarious.
wait. is this a reply to my question about WM in two different weapons? or about that guys build question?
_________________ "Earnest Hemingway once wrote, 'The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for.' I agree with the second part."
Usually, if I'm going for dev crit, It's either rapier/scimitar or kukri for me. Anything else either:
A. Doesn't have quite the same crit-range punch, or..
B. Starts with a 3x crit and moves to 4x or beyond, with WM (scythe, axes, hammers), or..
C. Deals enough damage normally+1.5 strength mod, and crits (Greatswords, halberds, greataxes)
That it really doesn't appeal to me.
Then again, I /really/ like the concept of a fighter/WM/Assassin with kukris and dev crit, for a true death attack. I just ranted pretty hard there, woops.
_________________ Gahnn Bluetusk Aleksandr Vespermouth II "Malnutrition is scarier than any beastie."
If you're not going epic ranger, there's not much incentive to go beyond one level, I think, build wise. You can still call yourself a ranger with just one level and, if you take it in epic, you can pick up EWF without sparing a fighter or general feat on it as well as dump AE.
Below epic, you miss out on Bane of Enemies, a tough animal companion and Blade Thirst's full potential.
is 9 a waste, even for ITWF?
what lvl ranger gets you full blade thirst, or does it also depend on Wisdom?
if you take 1 Ranger, you cant ever take ITWF because you technically have "dual wield" instead of ambidex and two-weap, right?
_________________ "Earnest Hemingway once wrote, 'The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for.' I agree with the second part."
what lvl ranger gets you full blade thirst, or does it also depend on Wisdom?
13 wisdom and at level 21 I believe.
_________________ Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.
If you'd like to cement that with lore: During Raging, you are incapable of making or using any skill that has Intelligence as its related attribute. Expertise is an Intelligence related feat. Go figure.
Well, if we're gonna cement things with lore and PnP, where does skill dumping come into all this?
wait. is this a reply to my question about WM in two different weapons? or about that guys build question?
WM with Weapon of Choice twice.
It's possible to get four Weapons of Choice on Amia, but that's a novelty build.
You can't be a really great WM in two weapons at once, by which I mean Devcrit'n'EWS, but you can be a great WM in one and a no-epic-feats-but-still-a-WM in another.
It's better to go uber twohander and stillprettyfierce onehander. I think. I've not done it, so I'm not sure. The idea is you twhander at 13-20x3 or 16-20x4 and if you get stuck you go axey and still have 17-20x4 with a shield. That's comfortably into triple figures even without EWS.
Do you think there's an qualitive difference between (learning a skill very quickly) and (fighting recklessly and defensively at the same time)?
I think this point stands independent of PnP.
Learning a skill very quickly...Thats the worst RP reason ive ever heard. Reminds me of those old school english story writing lessons when some kid in the back would end his piece with...
ok i think i have it... 1 ranger and start with greatswd, then take WF and the works for L.Swd and switch to 2 longswords when i egt me 1st WM lvl, then take 7 WM lvls and the rest fighter.
Btw, why does everyone reccomend more than 7 lvls of WM? besides superior WF whats the point???
Learning a skill very quickly...Thats the worst RP reason ive ever heard. Reminds me of those old school english story writing lessons when some kid in the back would end his piece with...
*sighs* Well...if you'd read what i actually said, it was something along the lines of: "I never rage and use expertise at the same time". So I really have no idea what line of thought you're going down. Rage when you have to. Sword and board with expertise when you really need AC. and greataxe + expertise for everything else. If anything, use rage and power attack at the same time.
As for skill dumping? Well we all do it. Difference is, when i do it, i know its an exploit of a broken mechanic. I dont try to wrap some wishy washy RP reason around it. Theres no way you can be dumb as a mule one day and then be a scholar (skilldump lore) the next...AND be just as good as that wizard who put a point in lore at every level up. It makes no sense and thats why it doesnt exist in PnP
Out of curiousity and not talking of builds including them is there any -real- good use for Improved Whirlwind or the Monk feat that gives barehand attack +5 Enchant?
The only thing I can think of with Imp Whirlwind would be a dex based WM with a 2hnd weapon so you can aoe mass crit things maybe lol
_________________ Must I at length the Sword of Justice draw? Oh curst Effects of necessary Law! How ill my Fear they by my Mercy scan, Beware the Fury of a Patient Man -John Dryden, 1681
Out of curiousity and not talking of builds including them is there any -real- good use for Improved Whirlwind or the Monk feat that gives barehand attack +5 Enchant?
The only thing I can think of with Imp Whirlwind would be a dex based WM with a 2hnd weapon so you can aoe mass crit things maybe lol
I know a builder guru or two who would definitely tell you all about how Imp Whirlwind is a seriously underrated feat that everyone ignores for some reason. I think I still have a PM from Aleph about it somewhere.
_________________ "Earnest Hemingway once wrote, 'The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for.' I agree with the second part."
Out of curiousity and not talking of builds including them is there any -real- good use for Improved Whirlwind or the Monk feat that gives barehand attack +5 Enchant?
The only thing I can think of with Imp Whirlwind would be a dex based WM with a 2hnd weapon so you can aoe mass crit things maybe lol
I've given the "Dex WM with Imp Whirlwind" some serious thought because it seemed to have the potential to be interesting and different and not useless since they supposedly fixed whirlwind in 1.69 to be a full BAB attack sequence. Big question was what to do with the other levels to maximize the effectiveness of it. I'd be interested in the thoughts of others on this too.
_________________ Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder
Whirlwind was great in 1.68... now that it's fixed it's even better. There's something incredibly satisfying about Whirlwinding a mob of Frost Giants and then Great Cleaving the lot of them in one go.
_________________ "Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
Whirlwind was great in 1.68... now that it's fixed it's even better. There's something incredibly satisfying about Whirlwinding a mob of Frost Giants and then Great Cleaving the lot of them in one go.
Not Whirlwind, Improved Whirlwind: The character performs a full attack action and makes one melee attack at full base attack bonus against all opponents within range of the character's weapons. Prerequisits: 21st level, Dodge, Expertise, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Int 13, Dex 23.
Which is different than regular Whirlwind as that says 'Within Five Feet' so uhm what im wondering is whats the real difference between then two and how does it work out? I mean is a dex WM with Imp Whirlwind going to be able to attack things that are 10ft away with this skill or something?
_________________ Must I at length the Sword of Justice draw? Oh curst Effects of necessary Law! How ill my Fear they by my Mercy scan, Beware the Fury of a Patient Man -John Dryden, 1681
Improved Whirlwind is great for double spawns; Frank had it for a while until I swapped it for Epic Discipline.
In theory it'd give GS'd or HiPSed people a nasty shock since the radius on it is hugely huge, but since you need 23DEX for it, you'd have to monkey about with wood elf or RDD to get Devcrit too, or else you'd not be doing fight-ending damage. Even Frank, probably the hardest hitting DEXer on Amia, can only score 120's on crits. You don't get Sneaks from WWA, alas.
One over thing it's nice for is that it shuts off enemy Sneak Attacks. In the likes of the Manor, or when swarmed by Succ Sneaks in the Abyss that's a lifesaver. It won't work against HiPS, though.
Blackdragon: sorry, I didn't realise you were just bringing skilldumps in from leftfield, as opposed to in relation to Rage/Expertise. Yeah, it's naughty, but I'd rather have the amusingly thin layer of IC justification than none at all.
You really use Expertise in the normal course of things? I only ever use it on Stillborn farming the Spire, since he can't miss even on his bottom attack when running it. Stillborn's a ridiculously STR-whored WM19, not an unRaged Barbie, so he's already around 6AB higher than a 30th level Barb who's calm, but if we're talking about a leveller, then that gap increases to about 15 for a chap XPing from the Spire.
Any other time, the need for Expertise signals the need to hunt somewhere else. It's just the way the maths works out. It gets a fair amount of use in PvP sparring matches in the Wiltun pit, though.
That's the same AC as Frank, you git. *muttergrumble stupid lucky bosslooter mutter grumble* Admittedly he could be on 57 (62 Expertise, 67 Hasted), but I can't bring myself to use a tower shield with the handaxe. It looks terrible.
Anyway, Al's in much the same boat as Stilly in that he's got the AB to muscle through the drop from Expertise. Level 29 WM's are like that, especially against the low AC mobs at the bottom end of the +4 bin.
Expertise stinks for levelling. Let's say it raises your AC until you're surfing 20's even on their top attacks, sure, but that's only one attack out of 4 and in return your hitrate has taken a bigger nosedive.
If you're still getting hits under 20 with Expertise, then the tradeoff is about equal*, but unless you have the DR to make incoming flak nice and slow and single figurey, you need to get out and hunt elsewhere. On top of that, it's just plain old better to kill fast than slow; mage spawns, buff expiry and the finite number of hours in the day all conspire to make fast brutal skirmishes better than wars of attrition.
*The very broad rule of thumb I use is Three, for tankly types who are trading blows(rather than surfing 20's like a Monk) in the level 15-30 stretch. Each point of AB makes you kill 3% faster, as does each point of damage. Meanwhile, each point of AC means you take flak about 3% slower.
.
Dang. I was wondering about that as it looked like it could be fancy if you could sneak within range of a group and get off a WWA with an effective "sneak spam". Does that also mean that the Crippling Strike feat wouldn't work when WWAing either?
_________________ Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder
Sneaks work on the principle of a studied analysis of enemy weakpoints - in the PnP game its to the point that you get added attack bonii for spending more rounds studying the foe (at least in the Wheel of Time d20 you do.. I dunno about other stuff)
_________________
Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?
You can Dev Crit with Whirlwind though... at least you could in 1.68. I was shocked when I first did that.
_________________ "Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
Yerps, crits are fine, it's just Sneaks that are a no-go with WWA.
It's a pretty good tactic in party since it ups your AB, especially when it's the Improved version. The radius on that is very impressive. Sets up the Great Cleavers very nicely. Alone, you're probably better off just fighting; despite the de facto increase in AB and +2 AC (no flanking bonus any more), you end up leaving the entire spawn alive until they all suddenly drop like flies. If you integrate the damage/time equation, I think you're better off taking them out one at a time.
Getting Improved WW and Devcrit looks like a bear. 25 STR and 23 DEX and 13 INT? Even as a Wood Elf/RDD *gag barf* it's a mess.
Got me to thinking Ruce when you say it "sets up the Great Cleavers nicely", what about if you had IWW and Great Cleave yourself? IWW the first round then polish them off with Great Cleaves? I know most folks take Great Cleave because they are going for Dev Crit but you only need 13 STR and a couple of spare feats to qualify. This relieves the ability point crunch, gives you some build flexibility, and you can basically go 23 Dex and as much STR as you can muster.
If you weaken them enough with IWW so that subsequent hits are kills you could rack up a good number of extra attacks and plow them down quickly no?
_________________ Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder
Well, the only way I'd make a DEX-base WM is if I was going Epic Dodge, and the only way I'd do that is Rogue, not SD, and inded that's exactly what I did, so my DEX WM prefers to rack up Sneaks in party, rather than WWA. In the Manor, especially when he had IWWA, he'd spam like nuts since his main party trick of Sneak damage was gone anyway.
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yep been long time, just trying make a new evil char that will keep me interested rp and figthing wise
