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i was just curious, if Darkfire is exactly the same as the spell Flame Weapon, then why not make the Book of transmutation different by having flame weapon elemental (like they both already are) and change Darkfire options to positive and negative, with default still Darkfire, pushing the whole divine aspect of the spell? or has this already been discussed?

I approve of this thread!

I believe it used to have negative but someone (a cleric player!) complained.

Yurell wrote:

I believe it used to have negative but someone (a cleric player!) complained.

Negative and Acid.

negative and acid are somewhat weird choices, plus both tend to feel evil IMO so i could see a complaint there, but negative and positive should represent good and evil clerics pretty well with darkfire still around for the neutral types, plus those three should give enough options to get around damage immunities, though one might complain not as great for finding vulnerabilities except for undead, which a cleric type should P-own anyways. clerics should be less about elemental and more divine, that's how i see it anyways

-edit- i was assuming that the choices at one time where only acid and negative, I'm sure that was not the case. or was it?, anyways negative i see no problem with, acid though was the weird one.

just to make it thought clear, IMO the BoT page would be nice to have these thee divine options only
1) Darkfire (default)
2) Positive
3) Negative

I like the idea myself, and would whole-heartedly support it.

Seems like an intelligent suggestion

My evil cleric would use nothing but positive damage.

Positive is far less often resisted than negative. It's too beneficial to use that damage type to give it out at 1d12 for a level 3 spell.

Well it doesn't necessarily have to confer the same damage roll if it's a damage type that isn't resisted much. Then, it's still better than fire in some circumstances, but you're still going to want to use fire against things which don't resist fire.

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

My evil cleric would use nothing but positive damage.

Positive is far less often resisted than negative. It's too beneficial to use that damage type to give it out at 1d12 for a level 3 spell.

well if your evil cleric likes to powerbuild build then sure lol, but my evil cleric would only use what fit his alignment rp wise, negative, and in extreme causes, Darkfire, or since i have negative already , darkfires a nice nuetral option to add, so nothing changes in my case lol, but positive being used by evil characters can happen, i would think, just a matter of what there god thinks of them using it..also could be them channeling another god, which makes for interesting RP fallout

Selmak wrote:

Well it doesn't necessarily have to confer the same damage roll if it's a damage type that isn't resisted much. Then, it's still better than fire in some circumstances, but you're still going to want to use fire against things which don't resist fire.

Yeah, but on the downside there are weaknesses you can't exploit any more (frost, for example).

I don't see a reason to change it.

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

My evil cleric would use nothing but positive damage.

Positive is far less often resisted than negative. It's too beneficial to use that damage type to give it out at 1d12 for a level 3 spell.

Not to mention things with positive energy vulnerability.

Negative damage is generally not favoured as it is easily countered by a bubbly potion.

Though, I see no reason as to why negative was removed from the Darkfire BoT.

Positive would be OP'ed, for the reasons already stated.

Quote:

Though, I see no reason as to why negative was removed from the Darkfire BoT.

People complained.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

Though, I see no reason as to why negative was removed from the Darkfire BoT.

People complained.

Can we have it back?

Yes. I think it's a very good principle if something got changed because of complaints (I must say I'd use another phrase myself here) it doesn't get rechanged when the community makes its mind up. You got your chance, so live with it.

Is that yes as in yes or yes as in no?

That was a yes agreeing with Tormak that people complained. It was a no to changing it.

Blast. When was it changed originally, may I ask?

Dunno, after we added it, I guess.

being this is an rp server i think it would make more logical sense and benefit more awesome rp to have it changed to positive and negative, despite the powergaming populace.

I like the idea of positive, negative and vanilla of being the lvl three cleric spell as opposed to elemental as the lvl two arcane.

It's fine the way it is. I like being able to have Electrical damage slapped on my cutlass.

Clerics can already slap some nice positive damage onto their weapons with Divine Might.

jameslocke wrote:

Clerics can already slap some nice positive damage onto their weapons with Divine Might.

They can't cast it on to other's and can only do it based on their cha modifier.

Divine damage, thank you. Clerics are powerful enough as it is. At least I think that's the general consensus.

Signe Johanne wrote:

Divine damage, thank you. Clerics are powerful enough as it is. At least I think that's the general consensus.

Yeah, and so are wizards but they got a BoT for Weird.

i really dont think changing a damage type is going to make it horridly overpowered. I just simply think it would be cool and awesome rp to cast the visual effect of negative and positive. Plus it makes plenty sense.

Gexx44 wrote:

i really dont think changing a damage type is going to make it horridly overpowered.

*Changes damage type from fire, to ice, while fighting Fire Giants*

??

Gexx44 wrote:

i really dont think changing a damage type is going to make it horridly overpowered. I just simply think it would be cool and awesome rp to cast the visual effect of negative and positive. Plus it makes plenty sense.

It make no sort of sense. Darkfire is "fire", afterall. Anything you consider it "making sense" is your opinion, which can, in cases of balance, be straight up wrong, as is your assertation that 1d12 positive energy castabl e at level 3 is not ovepowered.

Hint: It is.

TormakSaber wrote:

It make no sort of sense. Darkfire is "fire", afterall. Anything you consider it "making sense" is your opinion, which can, in cases of balance, be straight up wrong, as is your assertation that 1d12 positive energy castabl e at level 3 is not ovepowered.

Hint: It is.

question how is the 1d12 at lvl 3 being figured?

and also darkfire may be fire, the spell though is a bit different in PnP, plus channeled though divine means. but here's the description of the spell just for fun,

"A flame, void of light, springs forth from an object that you touch. The effect feels like a regular flame, but it does not give off any visible illumination nor does it consume oxygen"

Flame.

Aso: Spell level 3, not Character Level 3.

At spell level 3 it only gives 1d4 damage anyway...

Quote:

• CL 1 – 9 : 1d4 damage,
• CL 10 – 14 : 1d6 damage,
• CL 15 – 19 : 1d8 damage,
• CL 20 – 24 : 1d10 damage,
• CL 25+ : 1d12 damage.

He meant, as a level 3 spell.

Aka, a spell of the third tier.

TormakSaber wrote:

Spell level 3,

L-E-V-E-L T-H-R-E-E

Why did TSR not buy a thesaurus?

I can't imagine what the world would be like today if the world level didn't have 'arbitrary point in a character's existence' as a definition. Just think, there would be no powerlevelling services. No excited '5XP to next level' message in party chat. No levelling up. It would be like stepping into bizarro world.

RigorIYIortis wrote:

At spell level 3 it only gives 1d4 damage anyway...

Quote:

• CL 1 – 9 : 1d4 damage,
• CL 10 – 14 : 1d6 damage,
• CL 15 – 19 : 1d8 damage,
• CL 20 – 24 : 1d10 damage,
• CL 25+ : 1d12 damage.

ok thats what i thought, just got confuse with people saying level 3 / 1d12, but that's not anything particular about this thread, it's about damage type not amount of damage. positive energy should only extremely hurt undead, which come on there freakin clerics lol, undead is there "thing" besides that the only difference i can see with positive energy is the what the NwN wiki says which, on Amia may not be the case

"Positive, magical, and divine damage are the three damage types for which there is no protection via spells, and items granting positive damage protection tend to be rare"

Could we at least have negative back. Perhaps added to flame weapon too. Its not like that would overpower anything? Is there a reason acid and sonic arent available? These are just as easily resistable are the other elements now given the new items in the module.

Yurell wrote:

They can't cast it on to other's and can only do it based on their cha modifier.

So what? Get some charisma, +15 divine is sexy.

Leave Darkfire alone! Leave it alone!

[quote="Uncle-Opustus"]Leave Darkfire alone! Leave it alone![/quote

This man is only one of the reasons Darkfire exists as it does now and will not be changed. You may blame him, not us.

well sure it may be dark"fire" but it still gets changed to ice and electrical so im saying it make more sense for it to be positive and negative instead of what is now and it wouldnt be overpowered because not many things are weakened by these elements except undead which as others have said is understandable for clerics to be good against. Also ice may be good against fire giants, bu not only is that just one of many areas, it is not the most exalted place to hunt, at least at max level.

I really just think that it would be cooler and more fun if clerics could cast positive and negative rather than ice and electricity. not trying to be rude, just trying to get that out there. Also it does 1d12 3rd tier spell damage no matter what damage it unleashes, perhaps if this were a druidic-like cleric electricity and ice would make more sense to me, but really negative and positive seem to give me more of cleric feel even if not all clerics are inherently good or evil, fire can be neutral along with positive and neutral being neutral gods give ac against evil and good it makes sense they would use these elements against their foes.

any constructive criticism ^_^

Gexx44 wrote:

i really dont think changing a damage type is going to make it horridly overpowered. I just simply think it would be cool and awesome rp to cast the visual effect of negative and positive. Plus it makes plenty sense.

you know what would also make sense Divine favor giving divine and not magical damage, I think darkfire is fine as it is, its better then NWN basic.

Good points here and I agree with them. The sad fact is that no matter how many good points you make for darkfire being transmutable to postive or negative, if the DMs dont want it to be changed or there is vested interest elsewhere, its just not gonna fly...even if it does make perfectly good rp sense. Whats really important here is PVP balance. Positive would only really be "overpowered" in the PVP aspect and even then its not hugely overpowering. PVM its only really great against undead and maybe in the abyss too.

While on the subject, do you want to know something that is REALLY overpowered? Get this...I just found a mestils acid sheath page. The firegiants literally kill themselves. It actually mademe sad inside. At the same time I felt dirty using it. The spell was already good enough and to really rub salt in the wound, you dont even get the green glowy effect that you normally get with acid mestils. Great for PVP.

Last edited by FA_Frey_XC on Tue, Apr 14 2009, 3:09 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Yurell wrote:

Yeah, and so are wizards but they got a BoT for Weird.

Wizards are suppose to be OP.

They're wizards.

Regards,

EDIT: Forgot the smiley!!!

Gexx44 wrote:

well sure it may be dark"fire" but it still gets changed to ice and electrical so im saying it make more sense for it to be positive and negative instead of what is now and it wouldnt be overpowered because not many things are weakened by these elements except undead which as others have said is understandable for clerics to be good against. Also ice may be good against fire giants, bu not only is that just one of many areas, it is not the most exalted place to hunt, at least at max level.

I really just think that it would be cooler and more fun if clerics could cast positive and negative rather than ice and electricity. not trying to be rude, just trying to get that out there. Also it does 1d12 3rd tier spell damage no matter what damage it unleashes, perhaps if this were a druidic-like cleric electricity and ice would make more sense to me, but really negative and positive seem to give me more of cleric feel even if not all clerics are inherently good or evil, fire can be neutral along with positive and neutral being neutral gods give ac against evil and good it makes sense they would use these elements against their foes.

any constructive criticism ^_^

pretty much said it all there, the only other thing i would add to that is it makes the spell diverse, and different from the arcane version, compared to what it is now, the exact same thing but a lvl higher...

Mr Mago wrote:

Positive would be OP'ed, for the reasons already stated.

Unfortunately, that fact still remains.

Since, it -would- be overpowered, as close to no NPC monsters have resistance against it. And it's just as rare amongst PCs.

corypx wrote: you know what would also make sense Divine favor giving divine and not magical damage, I think darkfire is fine as it is, its better then NWN basic.

in all politeness, since one thing doesnt make sense means we should allow more things to not make sense and try our hardest to not progress the awesomeness of our rp? also i care more for the whole positive/negative visual effect it gives to you and your allies who except it. i think it would be fun, creative, and logical.

also i realize the dms are in complete control and that is why i am trying to negotiate with them in hopes that this could come to life. that is why i chose this topic to stay on for i feel it brings something fun and new to amia. as for being overpowered, amia has beefed up plenty things and in all equality this is but a minor advantage, for while it is hard to resist it is for the most part not very overpowering to some such as electric and ice are. so i think it has its ups and downs.

Darkfire BoT

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