That helps. You need the fighter bonus feats with the WM and Dev Crit feat requirements yeah, especially with a 28th level max. Sounds like 2-3 rogue levels will get it done for you. Some Tumble, UMD, Open and Disable. Sound right?

As few as that? I was thinking more than that, but its the least priority anyway, of course

_________________
"Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence"
~ Napoleon Bonaparte.
- Clearly, Napoleon never envisioned the Internet......where I'd judge it about 50/50.

The only things you get from more rogue levels (until you hit 10th) is more sneak dice, skill points, and some trap save bonuses (reflex only).

If you aren't going hard for hide and move silent, and just want some nominal open lock and disable trap skills to go along with tumble, UMD, and such you'll likely have enough to get by.

At 10th Rogue you start getting rogue bonus feats every three levels which are nice but that's moving you into "a rogue who can hit hard" territory, rather than "a warrior who has picked up some toolz and skillz" which is what it sounds like you are looking for.

Yep, true enough.......I was just thinking the number of skillpoints might be a bit paltry, but indeed, no point in 'wasting' levels.

_________________
"Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence"
~ Napoleon Bonaparte.
- Clearly, Napoleon never envisioned the Internet......where I'd judge it about 50/50.

Remember, if you're ever going to be short on Skillpoints, and you intend to take Rogue anyway, taking Rogue at level 1 means 36-45 Skillpoints depending on if you go 13 or 14 Int.

_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."

Ah, thanks, Sokar........that really is worth knowing! What is it 'mechanically', so to speak, in the game, that makes that happen, btw?

_________________
"Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence"
~ Napoleon Bonaparte.
- Clearly, Napoleon never envisioned the Internet......where I'd judge it about 50/50.

Starting skill points are based on the formula:
[Class Skill points + INT Mod] times 4

So Rogue is:
[8 + 1] * 4 = 36 for 13 INT
or
[8 + 2] *4 = 40 for 14 INT

Whereas if you take level 1 as a fighter you'd get:
[2 + 1] * 4 = 12
or
[2 + 2] * 4 = 16

Makes a big difference. You gain roughly 24 skill points by taking level 1 as Rogue. So since you will have a couple of Rogue levels at least, it makes sense to have one of them be your level 1, especially is you are going to be tight on skillpoints.

Maybe like this

Bard5-> RDD4-> BG3-> Bard3-> RDD2-> BG1-> RDD4-> Bard8

Stats

Str:16 -> Whit RDD 20 -> lvlup 26
Dex:10
Con:12 -> Whit RDD 14
Wis:8
Int:13 -> Whit RDD 15
Cha:14 -> Whit RDD 16 lvlup 17 grater Cha 18

Feats,Pre epic, power attak, weapon focus, maximised spell, extended spell, curse song, knockdown, cleav, improved crit.

Epic: grater CHA I, Armorskin, EWF, Anyone have ideas what else?

WF in Halberd because Tiamath has Heavy pick (Bite) as favorite weapon and biting isnt an option so i think Halberd is the closest to a Heavy pick I can come.

Skills consentration, discipline, preforme, spellcraft, tumbel, UMD
5in hide and 8 in lore for rdd and BG Requirements.
Maxing Con, Dis, spellcraft. 30 tumbel, preform 19, I dont know how mutch UMD I need.

_________________
Player of:
Essedeavenix
Sigurdis Haraldsdottir
Ulfhild

Random question: for a cleric, Craft wand vs. Maximize Spell vs. Empower Spell?

Maximize is the best, opens up a whole lot of room in your gearset when you know that you'll get +5 of almost every stat on the first casting of your stat-buffing spells. Craft wand is cool though.

_________________
To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!

Craft wands makes you a popular person. I can't find a Deathward crafter for love nor money.

The answer is find a superfluous feat to drop and take Max and Wand.

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

And I have just the feat to drop. Thanks for the advice guys.

Quick question. working on a 25 Ranger, 1 Ro, 4F STR based for my brother. Is dodge / Mobility a necessity in any melee build? he will have 13 base DEX, but since he doesnt need the dodge / mobility combo for any prestige class, is it still worth taking? Thanks!

- Aurelius

_________________
"Earnest Hemingway once wrote, 'The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for.' I agree with the second part."

[Kegs] Angry Dwarf
[Akly] Angry Halfling

I don't see why he would have 13 base Dex, I'd spend those three points in Str or Con, depending on the current status of his ability points. And Mobility is really nothing, Dodge is crap for a ranger. Don't take either of them.

_________________

UCE THIS, YOU COW.

At character creation you get (base skill points + int modifier) * 4 skill points.

A Rogue has 8 skill points every level compared to a fighters 2.

My other suggestion would be going the 13 Rogue 7WM 8 Fighter route.

_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

hmm. i guess we went 13 DEX so he could easily get to 18 to make up for not being able to wear heavy armor. I know he *could* wear heavy with the fighter levels, but then it would negate the dual wield feats, right?

_________________
"Earnest Hemingway once wrote, 'The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for.' I agree with the second part."

[Kegs] Angry Dwarf
[Akly] Angry Halfling

Get hold of a pair of gloves that give ambidexterity and two weapon fighting (cant remember the name) which can be found in a certain shop in the module. Then you can dual weild with impunity (improved TWF) still functions normally so i believe.

Yep. Get those gloves, you'll win a couple of points that way.

_________________

UCE THIS, YOU COW.

Hello!

I'm thinking about rebuilding my Druid/Cleric/Shifter into something slightly more useful ...

He is mostly a Cleric and should stay like that, I just want to drop most of the Shifter ... He's a Ffolk, WIS-focuesd, and has 8 CHA right now. It feels somewhat wrong to go to 14+ CHA and Divine Might/Shield on a rebuild.

Also, I want to keep 5 Druid levels so he gets the Wild shape somewhere in Epic ... (And he's a member of the grove.) I know that that doesn't really help the build a lot, at least not compared to two levels of Druid.
Alignment: NG, follows Chauntea. He's a (pathetic) meleer right now, so I suppose that's the way he would go again (without the pathetic, please).

So ... I was thinking:
Druid 5 / Cleric 25. Lacks useful skills (like spot or listen), but has Caster levels.
Druid 5 / Cleric 24 / Shifter 1: Gets spot. (And cheesy dragon sight when needed.)
Druid 5 / Cleric 23 / CoT 2: Spot, maybe discipline + extra feat and somewhat better saves. Yay!

For the last one I would go:

Stats (Ffolk-adjusted in brackets. That race hurts a bit compared to normal human)
STR 15 (14) --> 18
DEX 8
CON 14 (15)
INT 15 (14)
WIS 15 (16) --> 19 + 1 Great WIS
CHA 8

Skills: 5.5 (2 cleric +1 human +2 int + 1/2 from Druid levels)
Conc, Spell, Heal, Spot, Disc nearly max, Animal Empathy at 20.

Domains: Animal, Earth (for Cat's grace, Stoneskin and RP)

Feats:
Extend Spell, Max Spell
Craft Wand
Blind Fight
Weapon Focus (some weapon), Imp Crit (same weapon)
Toughness, Luck of Heroes

Epic:
Armor Skin
Epic Fort
ESF Heal
Epic Weapon Focus
Great WIS I (if I want an epic Spell)
One more.

If there was a valid reskin for Mummy Dust to a Druid compatible version (elemental?) I wouldn't mind that as the last epic feat. Though I suppose a Dragon would also fit in there with a little bit of readjusting (drop Imp Crit, Luck of Herous and ESF Heal for SF/GSF/ESF Conj),

The problems I see:
Lowish AC (druid restrictions and no tumble dump and no divine shield)
Druid compatible weapon choice? Most likely the scimitar.

Did I miss something vital?

Thanks a lot guys and sorry for the long post.
Ts

edit: fixed stats

_________________
Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"

I'm curious about something, I play a pure-rogue character. I already have a very basic build for him in my mind, but I don't know what levels he gets his feats. Does anyone know?

I remember discussing ages ago with a friend that rogues retain there "special" feats in epic levels (The ones every 3rd level past 10), and can pick any feat from their epic list through them. Is this true?

_________________
Jack Tesilent - Jack's Bio

Inspired by my own post about Called Shot, Curse Song, Heroic Shield and status effects making a potent combo I thought I'd try and figure out a Purple Dragon Archer. This is what I've come up with so far:

Bard(16), Arcane Archer(9), Purple Dragon Knight(5), Elf

STR: 10
DEX: 17 (24)
CON: 8
WIS: 10
INT: 14
CHA: 16

Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)
01: Bard(1): Curse Song
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Extend Spell
04: Bard(4): DEX+1, (DEX=18 )
05: Bard(5)
06: Bard(6): Mounted Combat
07: Bard(7)
08: Purple Dragon Knight(1): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
09: Purple Dragon Knight(2): Point Blank Shot
10: Purple Dragon Knight(3)
11: Purple Dragon Knight(4)
12: Purple Dragon Knight(5): DEX+1, Weapon Focus: Longbow, (DEX=20)
13: Bard(8 )
14: Arcane Archer(1)
15: Arcane Archer(2): Called Shot
16: Arcane Archer(3): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
17: Arcane Archer(4)
18: Arcane Archer(5): Improved Critical: Longbow
19: Arcane Archer(6)
20: Arcane Archer(7): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
21: Arcane Archer(8 ): Epic Prowess
22: Bard(9)
23: Bard(10)
24: Bard(11): DEX+1, Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow, (DEX=23)
25: Bard(12)
26: Bard(13)
27: Bard(14): Rapid Shot
28: Bard(15): DEX+1, (DEX=24)
29: Arcane Archer(9)
30: Bard(16): Epic Skill Focus: Spot

Hitpoints: 188
Skillpoints: 188
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 15/14/24
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +5, Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 23
AB (max, naked): 24 (melee), 39 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 23/27
Spell Casting: Bard(6)
Alignment Changes: 0

Discipline 33(33), Intimidate 1(4), Listen 2(4), Perform 30(33), Persuade 1(4), Spellcraft 26(28 ), Spot 31(43), Tumble 30(37), UMD 27(30), Ride 2(9)


01: Intimidate(1), Listen(2), Perform(4), Persuade(1), Spot(2), Tumble(4), UMD(3), Ride(2),
02: Discipline(2), Perform(1), Tumble(1), UMD(2),
03: Discipline(2), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1),
04: Discipline(2), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1),
05: Discipline(2), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1),
06: Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(1),
07: Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(2),
08: Discipline(1), Save(5),
09: Discipline(1), Save(8 ),
10: Discipline(1), Save(11),
11: Discipline(1), Save(14),
12: Discipline(1), Save(17),
13: Discipline(1), Perform(6), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(6), UMD(6),
14: Spot(6),
15: Spot(6),
16: Spot(2), Save(4),
17: Spot(2), Save(8 ),
18: Spot(2), Save(12),
19: Spot(1), Save(17),
20: Spot(1), Save(22),
21: Spot(1), Save(27),
22: Discipline(9), Perform(8 ), Tumble(8 ), UMD(8 ),
23: Discipline(1), Perform(1), Tumble(2), UMD(2),
24: Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(2), Tumble(1), UMD(1),
25: Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(3), Tumble(1),
26: Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(3), Tumble(1),
27: Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(3), Tumble(1),
28: Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(2), Save(2),
29: Spot(8 ),
30: Discipline(2), Spellcraft(4),

First off, I've never seen a build with the same HP and Skill Points...

HP is low. This could be fixed, but only by taking a second pre-Epic Feat (Toughness) during Epic levels (the first being Rapid Shot). You could also drop your Int so that you have 12 in both Int and Con, but that would mean missing out on Discipline altogether.

A very respectable BAB means that things like Called Shot won't even be noticed - it also means your Called Shot will be more effective than the average 16 BAB-at-20 build (of course, you're never going to have the AB of a 20 AA but who cares?).

ESF: Spot. To be honest the only other Feats I could think of were Toughness or Armour Skin, but this just seemed right. If you're not going to pump up your Spot and take ESF: Spot, AA9 should be taken much earlier for Imbue Arrow V.

Heroic Shield is a Free Action meaning that you can use it while doing other things without any effect. In other words, you can cast HS on your Hasted tank at the same time as you cast CoB in the first round, again while you Curse Song in the second Round, yet again while you cast Bestow Curse... and then use HS every Round after that while spamming CS into your enemy for a massive combined effective AC boost to your tank.

As far as I can tell, all of the PDK songs stack with Bard songs and other spells/abilities up to the respective caps (this really needs to be tested, while playing a PDK and using these abilities indicates this is true, it still needs confirmation). Aside from Rallying Cry, which is pure stupid given that it only lasts for one Round, these supplement your Bard Song very well. Inspire Courage is effectively another low level Bard Song. Oath of Wrath effectively gives you a kind of Favoured Enemy once per day for 10 Rounds, which coincidentally is the same length of time as your Bard/Curse Song. Final Stand gives you and your allies 2d10 HP for 14 Rounds (5PDK + 28 Cha from items) which is handy.

Cast level 30 Fear - Beware! PDK Fear can effect the caster.

Be sure to take Cloud of Bewilderment as a Level 2 Spell and (maybe) Bestow Curse as Level 3 - the whole point of this build is to disable your opponents and help your tank... and there's nothing like a Blind, Stunned, doubly Cursed opponent that's being filled with Called Shots to help out the tank you are giving +4AC to every Round.

Anyway, it's by no means perfect and could do with some work (and real ingame testing... ), but this seems a pretty good use of the PDK class. Of course, you will be a stronger character with Ba21/AA9, but that wasn't the point.

Comments? Complaints? Suggestions?

_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."

Pure rogue
1 (+1 if human)
3
6
9
10 (rogue)
12
13 (rogue)
15
16 (rogue)
18
19 (rogue)
21
24
24 (rogue)
27
28 (rogue)
30

What he meant with the epic thingie is that, if you take your 10th/13th/16th/19th rogue level in epic, then you can also take an epic rogue feat instead of just the standard rogue bonus feats. In other words: doesn't matter if you want pure rogue.

_________________
Click here for the navis & lukavi portraitpacks preview & download.

It's the Cloud of Bewilderment that's well....bewildering me. I can only see a DC of 23 there, so you're surfing 1's from mid-level. The number of times something's going to be caught by it before the Bard-buffed tank (with AA support) chops it up is going to be pretty minimal. Not worth the time that could be spent Curse Singing, nor worth the second level spell, which on a thieftaker build would be better off as Owl's Wisdom.

Aside from that, I'd be happy enough to run as DPS-monkey for that character, albiet more as a parters rather than a party; it's the same buffer/killer balance that you always need to strike. Pure killers stink when you want a buffer, and viceversa, but when you want either, then buffer/killers are meh.

Bard16's got the magical muscle to break the back of a tank or two's needs; all-day Haste and Imp Invis, GMW+5, Prot/Evil, and then you're still an AA and it's always nice to have that kind of instant pointyshooty Onhit-disables and damage.

Once there's more than two or three folk, the more Bardly flavour's Mass Haste and extra spells/day overtakes the extra DPS from Arcane Artillery.

Rallying Cry isn't listed as non-stacky with Haste, so on the assumption it does stack, it'd actually be a nice little trick to have.

The good thing about CoB is that Mindblank doesn't protect you from Blindness. You're right though, better off Scroll-/Wand-casting it... and AA arrows do the job of Blinding (or any other effect you care to mention) anyway. Still, CoB without Focus is effective against Lizardmen and this build has to wait until Epic for anything other than level 3 Spells, it can always be swapped out later. The idea behind the build was to try and combine the mage status effects into everything else, but there's not much room for that with the Bard's Spell list.

I've been thinking of this for the last couple of hours and I'm going to have to give it a go. I'm still not comfortable taking pre-Epic feats in Epic levels, but I can't see any other way around it. The biggest issue, of course, is that you don't get GMW +5 until lvl 27 and Bard Song 16 until 30, so you still need someone else to give those buffs to the tank for most of Epic.

This might also prove to be a good Mounted Archery build in a lvl 40 + horses environment, though I suppose you'd need to swap Discipline for Ride.

_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."

*scrolls up and actually reads the layout* Sorry, I skip those things unless I can't avoid it because they hurt my eyes. Is that the Excel thingy?

Why not Bard15/AA4/PDK1, in that order? Hrm...well maybe take an AA earlier to get your mitts on the arrows.

Yeah, that's the Excel thing... but not the Amia one I made, which I accidentally deleted.

I'll throw your suggestion through, though you do need HS as early as possible because it really is a life-saver at low levels when nobody has +4 Dodge from anything else.

_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."

I'm yet to test drive it, but even if it's rubbish in parties(as opposed to partnerships) then you still gt GMW+5 by level 17, so it's a short stretch until you start cutting Premo.

Okay, I've rejigged the levels and prioritised pre-reqs over other Feats at low levels to get both PDK and AA ASAP. While they're very nice to have you don't really have enough Songs for Curse Song and don't really need Extend until after Bard 7 and your level 3 slots. Skill points also had to be significantly changed in their distribution, though the final allocation is the same.

Bard(16), Arcane Archer(9), Purple Dragon Knight(5), Elf

STR: 10
DEX: 17 (24)
CON: 8
WIS: 10
INT: 14
CHA: 16

Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)
01: Bard(1): Mounted Combat
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Point Blank Shot
04: Bard(4): DEX+1, (DEX=18 )
05: Bard(5)
06: Bard(6): Weapon Focus: Longbow
07: Purple Dragon Knight(1)
08: Bard(7): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
09: Arcane Archer(1): Extend Spell
10: Bard(8 )
11: Bard(9)
12: Bard(10): DEX+1, Curse Song, (DEX=20)
13: Bard(11)
14: Bard(12)
15: Bard(13): Called Shot
16: Bard(14): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
17: Bard(15)
18: Arcane Archer(2): Improved Critical: Longbow
19: Arcane Archer(3)
20: Arcane Archer(4): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
21: Arcane Archer(5): Epic Prowess
22: Arcane Archer(6)
23: Arcane Archer(7)
24: Purple Dragon Knight(2): DEX+1, Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow, (DEX=23)
25: Purple Dragon Knight(3)
26: Purple Dragon Knight(4)
27: Purple Dragon Knight(5): Rapid Shot
28: Arcane Archer(8 ): DEX+1, (DEX=24)
29: Arcane Archer(9)
30: Bard(16): Epic Skill Focus: Spot

Hitpoints: 188
Skillpoints: 188
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 15/15/25
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +5, Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 21
AB (max, naked): 22 (melee), 37 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 23/27
Spell Casting: Bard(6)
Alignment Changes: 0

Discipline 33(33), Intimidate 1(4), Listen 2(4), Perform 30(33), Persuade 1(4), Spellcraft 25(27), Spot 31(43), Tumble 30(37), UMD 27(30), Ride 2(9)

01: Intimidate(1), Listen(2), Perform(4), Persuade(1), Spot(2), Tumble(4), UMD(3), Ride(2),
02: Discipline(2), Perform(1), Tumble(1), UMD(2),
03: Discipline(2), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1),
04: Discipline(2), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1),
05: Discipline(2), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1),
06: Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(1),
07: Discipline(1), Save(4),
08: Discipline(1), Perform(2), Spellcraft(3), Tumble(2), UMD(2),
09: Save(6),
10: Discipline(2), Perform(2), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(2), UMD(2),
11: Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(2), Tumble(1), UMD(1),
12: Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(2), Tumble(1), UMD(1),
13: Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(1),
14: Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(2),
15: Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(3),
16: Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(4),
17: Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(5),
18: Spot(5), Save(6),
19: Spot(1), Save(11),
20: Spot(1), Save(16),
21: Spot(1), Save(21),
22: Spot(1), Save(26),
23: Spot(1), Save(31),
24: Spot(1), Save(33),
25: Discipline(8 ), Save(29),
26: Discipline(1), Save(32),
27: Discipline(1), Save(35),
28: Spot(17), Save(24),
29: Spot(1), Save(29),
30: Discipline(3), Perform(10), Spellcraft(5), Tumble(10), UMD(7),

NOTE: There are several places during level up when you will have 0 Skill Points left to spend - this distribution is exact.

_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."

Muticlassed Melee Cleric
First of all, apologies for the lengthy post. Second, I don't claim to be the expert in clerics but I've played my fair share of it that hopefully casual players can get something out of this post. Finally and most importantly, have fun.

Main goal of this post is to show players how to have a multiclassed melee cleric not suck in Amia. Main reasons I see players struggling with their melee clerics are: a) they don't have the right spells prepared; b) they don't bother buying/crafting the right gear; and/or c) they have botched up their ability & skill point allocation, and feat selection. Problems A & B are easily fixed, but problem C will probably require a rethinking of your cleric's niche (you're not made for melee) or a rebuild.

From my experience running 3 multiclassed melee clerics through Amia, the absolute minimum that I'll play when multiclassing clerics are: 15 cleric levels, base wisdom of 16, extend spell, and Trickery domain. Doing it without improved invisibility is possible but makes it much more challenging. With just this minimum levels of cleric, I'll show how it could reach at a minimum of 45 AC and 40 AB - good enough to earn our cleric the right to in the frontlines (preferably on the 2nd row.) The other 15 levels could be as crazy as want and your build would still be able to have a good time.

I'll start off by sharing my spellbook of a 15 cleric melee-er with just 16 base wisdom.
[Spells/Day: 7 | 7 | 7 | 5 | 5 | 4 ] Trickery Domain chosen.
Level 1: Protection from Alignment; 6 Divine Favors-
Level 2: Xtended Shield of Faith; Xtended Bless; Xtended Entropic Shield; 4 Xtended Divine Favors-
Level 3: Xtended Aid; Darkfire; Magic Vestment; Magic Vestment; 3 Xtended Darkness-
Level 4: Xtended Negative Energy Protection; Death Ward; 3 Xtended Prayer-
Level 5: Xtended Greater Magic Weapon; True Seeing; 3 Xtended Divine Power-
Level 6: Xtended Improved Invisibility; 3 Xtended Battletide-

1.) An arsehole cleric. Hopefully your damage output & tanking capabilities will make up for your lack of team buffing capabilities.

2.) Spells dependency. My clerics walk around with 0 armor, shield, deflection AC on their PvM gear and a NON-enchanted weapon. Once my buffs wears off, my cleric is walking naked with a toy weapon. So always be on top of your spells.

Standard buffs (30 turns or 30 minutes):
F1-F4 Magic Vestment, Xtended Shield of Faith, Xtended Entropic Shield, Xtended Improved Invisibility.
F5-F8 Xtended Greater Magic Weapon*, Darkfire, Xtended Bless, Xtended Aid.
F9-F12 Protection from Alignment, Xtended Negative Energy Protection, Death Ward, True Seeing*.

*Amia changed GMW to turns/CL, thus the need to extend it.
*True Seeing expires at 15 turns. (You can rest now)
These buffs should last at least 3 maps worth of mobs. Hopefully, long enough that you can keep up with your party's pace and avoid situations where your buffs runs out one by one while in battle.

Divine Goodies (30 rounds or 3 minutes):
F1 3 Extended Divine Powers (9 Minutes)
F2 3 Extended Battletides (9 Minutes)
F3 3 Extended Prayers (9 Minutes)
F4 4 Extended Divine Favors (8 Minutes)

6 Divine Favor (6 Minutes)
Extended Darkness

I usually run from mob to mob with all 4 extended divine goodies active, about 60% of the time. 30% of the time, I just use my non-extended divine favors to dispatch a mob, 1 minute bursts. And 10% of the time, I'm willing to slug it out with just my GMW, darkfire, aid, and bless as my sources of AB & damage.

Darkness is useful against bosses, multiple mobs, or anytime you're in a bad situation. With party members, I'll usually warn them ahead of time or cast ultravision (from a faded ball) to my team mates and summons.

With only 9 minutes of divine goodness (6 minutes short of the rest period), you'd probably find yourself struggling to keep up with your party members. Unable to muster up a last reserve of strength to reach those ideal resting places (just before a boss.) So I run around with 4 divine power, battletide, and prayer - giving me one more pop of divine goodness.

The first natural way to add more spells is to increase our cleric's wisdom. A wisdom of 22 as it turns out adds 1 spell/day up to the 6th level spells.

3.) Gearing up. Luckily, getting a wisdom of 22 on a 15 cleric with a 16 base wisdom only is trivial. Just buy/steal 3 great mythals and go craft yourself three +2 wisdom items.

We can't go wrong with adding more spells for our cleric. So go buy items with the Bonus Spell Slot 5 & 6. There are a few of them that exists in Amia, they are hard to find but they're well worth it!

My priority with my characters early on is their AC. By level 9-11, you're able to buy/wear/craft an amulet with +4 natural AC and boots with +4 dodge AC. And for your armor and shield, just get what you can carry/afford - there's no need to look for the +4 variants. When buffing, open up your inventory and cast your magic vestment on your armor and shield each for +5 armor and shield AC. Finally, there's no need to look for cloaks/rings with deflection AC, because your shield of faith will handle that.

Looking for the right weapon for our cleric is a simple business too (let's say we focused on a rapier). You're priority is to look for a rapier with a keen property. Find a great mythal and an intermediate mythal, and add 1d8 massive critical and 1d6 sonic damage. Cast GMW and you're good to go. You also have an extra 1 power left on your rapier that you can use for a +1 STR, an on hit power, or whatever.

The next item on my list is to look for an item with the Freedom property. Regen, DR, improved saves items are also nice to have.

Finally, you'd want to mythal or look for items that will add to your main abilities - STR or DEX, CON, CHA etc. Just aim for a +8 STR and CON gear for our cleric, the +12 limit can be reached by drinking potions.

4.) Potions, scrolls, and trinkets. You'd notice that my melee cleric's spellbook doesn't have any ability enhancing spells. I also don't have any heal, restoration, and/or raise dead spells. That's just my style, I'd rather buy hundreds of thousands worth of potions, raise dead and restore scrolls than lose my precious divine goodies and spell slot.

Besides even if I have the spare spell slots for those ability enhancing spells, I'd still rather use the potion variety just because I can keep on re-drinking my Bull's Might, Rhino's Stamina, Panther's Swiftness potions until I get that +4 roll (50% chance but there are those trying times that it seems you're rolling a loaded die). Giving us better control on our rolls.

Heal potions are better than the heal spell. Firstly because even though your attackers get an attack of opportunity when you drink a heal potion, it doesn't get disrupted like the spell variant. No spillage! And secondly because you can chug it like crazy for unlimited times/day.

Same goes for the restore and raise dead spells. Even better than the heal potions, these two come in scroll form! No attacks of opportunity. Heck, a cleric 15 can even buy greater restore scrolls in Amia and spam it like crazy if he/she is inclined to do so, even without L7 spells. If only Amia have greater resurrection scrolls...

A grandfather's pocket watch are a must have for our cleric. Casting our standard buffs would otherwise take twice as long. The pocket watch's haste last for 5 rounds - or 10 spells casting worth. Faded balls are nice to have with our cleric's person too, casting ultravision to teammates & summons just before you use darkness is just good manners. Also since our true seeing spell is the first to burn out, having see invisibility ready is nice to have.

5.) AB whores and Damage cannons. Clerics walk around with +20 AB when their divine powers are firing and a further +6 AB with maxed ability points (+12 STR/DEX). The high AB and the extra attack the cleric gets from divine power* makes it also a great improved knockdown machine, second only to the Bard.

GMW +5, Divine Power +5, Divine Favor +5, Battletide +2, Aid +1, Bless +1, Prayer +1 = 20 AB.

*Divine Power is so sexy and overpowered that at level 16 (not Cleric 16!) it will give your cleric an extra attack at your full AB! Check the wiki entry to learn more:


While a hasted full BAB class would get +46/+41/+36/+31/+46, a hasted + divine powered Cleric gets +46/+41/+36/+46/+46!

While an 'okay-ish' hasted melee cleric would walk around with +50/+45/+40/+50/+50, the well-made hasted 20Fighter/7WM/3rogue builds would have +50/+45/+40/+35/+50. The AB whore melee clerics can even get up to the 57-59 AB range.

The clerics are not just all AB too, they can dish out decent damage even for a low STR build. (Assuming our cleric started with 10 STR and never bothered to add a point in STR except in +12 from his gear.)
Scimitar +3.5 (1d6), Damage bonus sonic +3.5 (1d6), GMW enchantment +5, Divine favor +5, Darkfire +4.5 (1d8), Prayer +1, Battletide +2. Maximized STR +6.

So they hit an average of 30.5 points, with 40% chance to do 62 on his keen scimitar with Improved Critical feat. (No overwhelming critical feat or bonus massive critical.) Couple that with an AB of +45/+40/+35/+45 you can comfortably solo up to against fire giants. Against sahuagins & mindflayers, I think you might need haste, more damage, and avoid their dispels!

Personally, a melee-er with 40 AB (at level 30) is the lowest I would be willing to play in Amia PvM. Anything lower and it just becomes painful to watch. 50 AB being the preferred norm for PvM while being the minimum in PvP.

6.) On tanking. Clerics by themselves get poor AC. Base 10 AC, a mundane full plate (+9 AC), a tower shield (+3 AC), a +4 Nat AC amulet, and a +5 Dodge AC boots. = 31

Magic vestments on the plate and shield (+ 10). Cleric 15 Shield of faith (+4). = 14

45 AC by itself is below Amia standards. Trickery domain can make life easier with improved invisibility (adds roughly about 5 AC worth maybe? *shrugs*). 45 AC and 50% concealment makes it a tolerable fight in Amia as long as you have a summon/party members. Travel domain's extended haste can add a further +4 AC to our cleric too.

An 'okay' AC for me, is 49. Good AC being 53, and great AC 57. The 55-65 AC realm are reserved for the PvPs. I'd guess the highest AC in Amia being around the low 80s I think, a novelty monk/pm build... or maybe a dragon shape druid/monk/cot can beat it. *Shrugs*

Anyways besides haste and improved invisibility, the melee cleric is left with not much option on getting more AC. Thus comes the secondary and tertiary classes to help the cleric in the AC department.

The tumble dump classes monk, bard, & rogue, helps our cleric get 6 more AC by dumping 30 points on the Tumble skill. Pushing our cleric's AC at an okay-ish level - a cool 51. And just like that, with 1-4 levels of a tumble dump class, our cleric's AC is already on par with most builds found on amia. Our cleric's ready to face what Amia has to offer, as long as he's/she's with friends.

We don't even have to add in the third class to push the envelop further. We don't even have to explore the dex-based or wis-based melee cleric with monk's wisdom AC to bring it further. Let's not even talk about the RDD & PM prestige classes that further adds more AC to the build. Or those charismatic clerics than call on their deities to shield them further from harm.

7.) Feats or lack thereof.

8.) 15 Cleric upkeep. My general rule with my clerics is that by level 15, I've already bought a +4 Natural AC amulet, +5 Dodge AC boots, my +6 Wisdom gear, and my weapon (keen, 1d6 sonic, 1d8 massive crit). At the very least.

I would then start rebuilding my fortune, collecting/buying intermediate and great mythals, whilst slowly upgrading his gear. At around levels 18-20 he's more or less finished with his pvm gear to last him until he retires from adventuring.

He'd also have to try to maintain 40 bottles of his STR/DEX/CON potions, 20 bottles of heals, mind blanks, stone skins, misties, lesser restores, and invis potions. A stack of restore & raise dead scrolls too. Greater restore scrolls comes much later when you can afford it to waste money on fun scrolls.

It's a hard start to adventuring but it's a good goal to set, and it gets easier. Once you reach that level 15-18 with your gear in hand, the ride to 30 becomes easy. Begging/conning people in cordor square is a good way to earn early money.

9.) For all of the awesomeness of a 15 cleric, they will often get owned by a greater dispel. And there are a number of areas in Amia, especially in epic, that will strip your cleric of their spells. Just tread those areas carefully and always be with a party. The sacrifice is acceptable though, evidence being the huge amount of multiclassed cleric builds in the server.

Complementing the cleric. Seeing that with just a minimum of 15 Cleric levels and 16 wisdom that it still kicks ass, the sky is the limit when it comes to class combination. And indeed of the most sickest (rumors has it that DMs are disgusted by them) of combos seen in Amia, more often than not, involves a multiclassed cleric. A common class flavor added to a cleric being Monk.

Wisdom AC, tumble skill, discipline skill, awesome speed, and the insane attacks/round synergizes well with the cleric's high AB.

Great AC, good damage, and insane attacks/round. Not to mention having a high WIS, gives the build more versatility in spell casting.

xCleric/yMonk/zRogue is the usual combo. Depending on the builders intent, wis-based 21cleric/6monk/3rogue for example could be primarily a support cleric caster with high implosion DC and good team buffs while also being able to get up front in the battlefield.

15Cleric/13Rogue. Epic dodger, sneaker, and great AC. It can dish out _insane_ damages with its sneak attacks coupled with cleric damage and ab. Mix in a monk's dual kama at 10 attacks/round, we could very well have an assassination machine that can kill anything sneakable in a round.

Finally, there's the dreaded (frowned upon or even hated) combos of Cleric/bard/RDD & Cleric/bard/PM. Both can get dev crits, have access to the many bard skills, great HP, great AC. These two make up the most solid of fighters one can see in and out of the arena. RDD being the more flexible build of the two. No doubt most of the top melee builds in Amia falls under these combos.

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So for your problem TS. Try playing around with 15 Cleric/5 Druid/10 Shifter in a character leveller module and see which combo gets you a what you like.

Not having improved invisibility is a bummer, but it seems doable with your summons and greater stoneskin. With the animal domain you might want to explore a summoner role with your cleric being a support role in melee (not tanking).



Edit: I'll finish my ramblings some other time.

AB
Hm, i bet you havnt playing with bard builds. With curse song, they get over the cap multiclass with CoT and reach ab slightly over clerics. But thoses that have better AB are paladins fully buffed, talking about 64 with dev crit if well build, howerver, cleric holds their AB longer. Not talking bout epic WM with true strikes potions (68 according to ruce?).

AC
A cleric get hard time getting close to 70 while a multiclass bard with divine sheild, curse song and Armor skin get at 72 AC. AC that could also get higher with PM lvls.

But yar, clerics are awsome 8P
Nice job btw.

EDITED: stuffs

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By Jaydn

Hello!

Thanks, ticket and now Acrid! That's quite comprehensive.



Actually, I was aiming at that combination with my current build: A Divine Power Rakshasa. (That also negates the Dispel problem due to insane spell immunities). The problem is, though, that it is a very late blossomer.

You can turn it his way or that way, but you starve on Epic Feats and starve even more if you want to be a Rakshasa at Level 24. On the other hand, you have a stupid choice to make: Cleric 15 at Level 30 (finally a useful GMW/ Magic vestment ...) or Rakshasa at Level 30 (finally Mindflayer and the Epic Shape). Whatever you do, you will be a horrible multiclass until high epic ... And then you're a mediocre Cleric and a novelty Shifter ...

Also, Rakshasa + Melee runs into tons of AC problems, I think, and you cannot weapon focus in the Rakshasa staff. Uggh. I'm sure some problems will be fixed, when the new shifter forms come ....................

So, that's why I was asking looking into builds without any shifter. ;) But if somebody wants to propose a fun Cleric Shifter, I'm listenening.

Regards
Ts

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Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"

Clerics! Looking for either a cleric/SD, or a Cleric/Barb, I can't really decide. Any advice/buildan tips?

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Gahnn Bluetusk
Aleksandr Vespermouth II
"Malnutrition is scarier than any beastie."

If you do Cleric SD, do it epic dodger with some bard lvl for discipline and UMD skill dump. This right here can bossfarm alone, however, it have hard time doing the spires and such.

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By Jaydn

To expand regarding the Cleric/SD option, from the very start of this thread:



Regarding Cleric/Barbarian, from the first thread:



From yet another thread is a post with advice for someone's Cleric/Barbarian character:

Paladins reaching 64 AB... Is that just with the 3x/day smite evil? If not, do share! =]

Hmm... A half-orc 19 WM? Hahaha that's sweet, but it does seem reachable. 19 WM with 1 druid for outdoor +1 ab?



XD. Question: Can a cleric/shifter, when shifted, cast spells from his cleric spellbook?

And regarding a late bloomer build, I can only say that you'd really have to plan the character out (delevelling will be painful) and maybe make sure you're happy with the character, as in you'll play him/her for months on end still even when he's 30 already.

Well, 15 STR mod + 25 base attack + 4 feats (WF, EWF and epic prowess) = 44
+ 5 enhanced weapon (+4 with hm holy sword spell +1 then)
+ 3 Bless/aids/prayer
+ 5 Divine favor
+ 5 Divine warth (considering it look like Paly 18 / CoT 10 / Rogue 2)
+ 2 either warcry or battletide from barbarian bottle rum and you hit the AB cap.

It's do-able but is very short lasting, you could always take extend spell for divine favor..

EDIT: smite evil/good doesnt stack toward the cap.

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By Jaydn

What many people fail to realise when they throw around the word "powerbuild" is that a lot of said builds are often very weak for long stretches and then when they do get their signature strength they can be limited in their use. There are exceptions, of course.

Depending how you do it a Dragonshaper, for instance, can be anything from average to woeful before level 30 when they get Dragon Shape... and then they are limited to using the ability three times per day which makes going through many Epic areas, with the exception of the Abyss, an extreme chore (15 minutes to go through three rooms when you can clear them in a minute each).

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"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."

Bollocks to these "powerbuilds", it's the player playing the character that makes it. Try forcing Uce to play a pure class or prestige class build and I bet he can still kick arse.

Forcing? You often don't need to force him. He was a 30 bard, 2 30 clerics, a 30 wiz, a 30 barbarian (I think.), a 30 ranger... a "may as well be 30 Rogue"... I think anyways. His vault is extensive.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

You missed my point.

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"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."

I'd like to bump this request for a "standard" paladin.

Well, Even the worst of builds can be saved by a good Gearset and a little cleverness with the mechanics. And by having Friends.

These things can easily make up for glaring flaws in your character before you can get your signature attack, and your usefulness is only limited by how easily you can make the most with what you have, in the time you have to do it.

A striking example is casters. Starting at level 3, they're quite the squishy little things hiding behind a familiar and casting magic missile if they're feeling whimsical, while their friends in platemail are cutting swaths through kobolds. In the end, however, they do quite well. Not because magic missile gets that much better, but hopefully, because by the time they reach significant levels, they've learned that doing damage is not their specialty and have prepared buffs and status effect magic by then. If they knew this to begin with, it'll be a lot easier.

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Those trees won't burn themselves down. (by Maryn)

What's up with the ''You can't concentrate on using this ability effectively'' a lot of the shifter shapes get when they use their ability?

Anything I can do so it does not happen? Is it based on the concentration skill or something?

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You simply need more wisdom to fire them^^

A lot of the shifter shapes' abilities SAY infinite but are coded to only be a "X/Shift" thing. When it starts firing that message, you're out of uses for that shift.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Bog standard Pally chap:

STR 14 -> 17, up to 20 with feats
DEX 8
CON 14
WIS 14
INT 14
CHA 14 -> 18

Feats:

1 Power Attack
3 Weapon Focus
6 Divine Shield
9 Divine Might
12 Extend Spell
15 Improved Crits
18 Knockdown/Blindfight

21 Great CHA
24 Great STR
27 Great STR/Epic Discipline
30 Great STR/Epic Fort

23 Armour Skin
26 Epic Weapon Focus
29 Epic Prowess

The secondary options are the PvP tweaks. To be honest, Epic Fort is pretty redundant on a Pally with decent CHA since you'll be on 29 Fort with nothing but CHA buffs anyway, but sitting at 33 makes getting to the magic 40 score so easy that gearsetting will be a joke.

Skills: Discipline, Tumble, Concentration, [optional]

Now, the power solution is to add in a Rogue level for Tumble/UMD or two for Evasion, but not everyone likes seeing Sneak Attack coming off their Paladin. Monk1 gives the Tumble and Evasion, but fullplated Monks are blech to others too.

Are not! *ahem*. It's all just more 'Divine Blessing' anyways, or that's how I RPed my Pally's Evasion.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Thanks!

Multiple build questions:

A: What you recommend for a bard/PM/possible other to specialize in? Fighting or casting?

B: For fighting, would it be better for bard 15/PM 15 to be Dex-based or Str-based?

C. Str- or Dex-based for bard 10/PM 20?

D. Str or Dex-based for bard +4/PM +10/fighter +6?

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If I can make dreams a reality, can I make my reality a dream?