I liek Jean Ortega as a character because it shows that everyone can be different. I also don't think we should incorporate mean behavior in video games.
Last edited by Moridan_X on Thu, Apr 02 2009, 23:20 PM, edited 1 time in total.
I liek Jean Ortega as a character because it shows that everyone can be different. I also don't think we should incorporate mean behavior in video games.
Last edited by Moridan_X on Thu, Apr 02 2009, 23:21 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: 29 Jul 2007 Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
light always cast a shadow, if you place light on yourself, you still cast a shadow. Dancers can hide if a shadow is within 20 meters of them, not only if they are in one. unless you cast it directly on him.. in which case the SD can only hide in a darkness spell.
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I wasn't talking about anyone specific... I meant "they" in the general sense of "people with over 20 ranks of Hide/MS, which is how much you need to reliably hide from even people with zero ranks of detection."
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
Gravemaskin wrote:
light always cast a shadow, if you place light on yourself, you still cast a shadow. Dancers can hide if a shadow is within 20 meters of them, not only if they are in one. unless you cast it directly on him.. in which case the SD can only hide in a darkness spell.
I don't believe the question is about HiPSing. I think he means a normal rogue goes and hides behind a corner, then dances in front of you in an open area while you shine with light and you still can't see him.
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Don't talk about people publicly there, Moridan. If you're concerned about being Metagamed, please ask a DM privately.
sorry, but thats a little hard when u can't actually screen shot someone you only see for a split second when you enter a transition.
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Moridan_X wrote:
I liek Jean Ortega as a character because it shows that everyone can be different. I also don't think we should incorporate mean behavior in video games.
You do know that having a light-source as a stealther gives you a hide penalty.
And metagame.. if they can see the light they can see the light, imo.
"O' there's a glowing bush over-there, i wonder whats in it. O. I can't find it but somethings glowing."
_________________ Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
light always cast a shadow, if you place light on yourself, you still cast a shadow. Dancers can hide if a shadow is within 20 meters of them, not only if they are in one. unless you cast it directly on him.. in which case the SD can only hide in a darkness spell.
This. Same goes for standard stealth. A good part of this is a result of NWN Mechanics, and the fact that making 90000+ unenforcable rules about stealth would be redundant... and still wouldn't work.
answer, throw grease in the general direction of the glow, you wouldn't just ignore a moving glow coming from "something", could be a lich. far as I've read so far SD's cannot hide in plain sight if using light items or have light cast on them because its freaking impossible to wrap shadows around a glowing object. IMO
far as I've read so far SD's cannot hide in plain sight if using light items or have light cast on them because its freaking impossible to wrap shadows around a glowing object. IMO
That's true. It's in the rules, and in the exam you need to get the first (or was it second?) badge from the Shadowscape academy.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
WonWon wrote:
Gravemaskin wrote:
light always cast a shadow, if you place light on yourself, you still cast a shadow. Dancers can hide if a shadow is within 20 meters of them, not only if they are in one. unless you cast it directly on him.. in which case the SD can only hide in a darkness spell.
This. Same goes for standard stealth. A good part of this is a result of NWN Mechanics, and the fact that making 90000+ unenforcable rules about stealth would be redundant... and still wouldn't work.
That. Your rogue walking around in stealth is done that way because of mechanics ... no one would play a stealth char if stealth meant only coming up from behind people and having to actually spend all your time hidden in terrain.
So you have things like the transparent rogue that dances in front of people who just look straight through them.
_________________ 2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
BoT Page, Continual Flame, with True Strike beforehand for good measure, to -almost- assure you peg a shadowdancer with a light spell.
This is the only out of melee way to "IC" shut one down, and it presents two problems:
1) It works on the honor system. Some don't care, know it's a hostile action, and just HiPs spam you anyways.
2) It's a hostile action. You are fair game to be killed when you do this to a Shadowdancer.
I do have a question though because it's kinda iffy.
If a Rogue has concealment (which is normally required for a hide check, as well as being unobserved) such as form improved invisibility or displacement, get's hit with light, and then runs out of sight like a corner sneak, can they still hide via concealment when out of sight and remain hidden instead of light revealing them?
I suppose some would say "Common sense says no" but now we are dealing with two magic effects, and it becomes kinda weird.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
Casting is an offensive action and they have every right to HiPS and treat it as such. Just like your sorcerer has every right to buff and blast the crap out of them when they do HiPS, which is also a hostile act.
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hiding in daylight in an open field will absolutely do nothing for you in terms of hiding, especially when there is nothing to hide behind, or use to hide.
I don't think people are taking this IC cuz its not really acknowledged.
Some people think stealth mode really does make you -invisible- and they abuse it to the point of running into other people. Its gotten bad enough for me while I've had someone standing right in front of me, and I'd emote casting light on myself, and surrounding the person with rocks with light spells on them. They ignored it and moved on after I moved my character all around them to feel where their character was.
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Moridan_X wrote:
I liek Jean Ortega as a character because it shows that everyone can be different. I also don't think we should incorporate mean behavior in video games.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
Moridan_X wrote:
i believe u guys are missing the point.
hiding in daylight in an open field will absolutely do nothing for you in terms of hiding, especially when there is nothing to hide behind, or use to hide.
I don't think people are taking this IC cuz its not really acknowledged.
Some people think stealth mode really does make you -invisible- and they abuse it to the point of running into other people. Its gotten bad enough for me while I've had someone standing right in front of me, and I'd emote casting light on myself, and surrounding the person with rocks with light spells on them. They ignored it and moved on after I moved my character all around them to feel where their character was.
Suspend disbelief is all I have. No it doesn't make sense, but there would need to be a ridiculous amount of work to determine what areas are 'hideable', lighting conditions, direction people are facing, clothing of the rogue, speed at which they are moving etc.
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Gravemaskin wrote:
unless you cast light on the SD or hider, it's still okay for them to hide, by Amian standards.
I don't think he's complaining about SDers. He is taking about people who are already hidden remaining so even though there is nothing they can actually hide in and anyone with their eyes open should be able to see them.
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IC, it's a pain in the arse. However, we don't have rules for it, and given the -extreme- amount of loopholes and errors that you'd get from any untrackable rule such as this, I doubt we'll make any.
Mechanically, you can hide anywhere you want. The onle time you cant is when you're Lighted, which sadly can't be mechanically done but c'est la vie.
You can hide in the middle of a field in black clothing if you really want to. It sucks, but that's NWN for you.
This spell causes an object to glow like a torch, shedding bright light in a 20-foot radius (and dim light for an additional 20 feet) from the point you touch. The effect is immobile, but it can be cast on a movable object. Light taken into an area of magical darkness does not function.
A light spell (one with the light descriptor) counters and dispels a darkness spell (one with the darkness descriptor) of an equal or lower level. Arcane Material Component
A firefly or a piece of phosphorescent moss.
??
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Correct me if I'm wrong:
SDs need shadow nearby to hide. If they're glowing (light cast upon them), they can't hide. If there is no shadow, they can't hide. Magical darkness is not shadow, it is magical darkness. They're not called "Darkness Dancers."
SDs need shadow nearby to hide. If they're glowing (light cast upon them), they can't hide. If there is no shadow, they can't hide. Magical darkness is not shadow, it is magical darkness. They're not called "Darkness Dancers."
You're wrong, Magic Darkness works for HIPS.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
It's common sense that you couldn't really hide in the places NWN lets you hide, but it's equally obvious that NWN doesn't let you into, onto, underneath or behind the things that you really could use for stealth.
I really don't like the falseness of saying you're really hiding behind a rock when you plainly aren't, so while I do prefer to hug the terrain in a vaguely plausible manner, the bottom line is that it's magic hiding and the counter to it is Spot/Listen ranks or dragonsight.
The way I've found easiest to rationalise WYSIWYG is that the magic of hiding is nothing to do with camouflage or getting opaque objects between you and the observer, although that in itself may well be enough. The magic is more like the first level Sanctuary spell Clerics get, only instead of a Will save the observers use Spot/Listen.
So if you're standing in the middle of a giant chessboard, they can see you and hear you just fine, but by oogly body language and the like you're making yourself such an insignificant speck that they're not paying any more attention to you than the dirt you're standing on.
Spot and Listen aren't just the sharpness of your senses, they're also the ability to shake your head and think: no really, there is someone standing right there. The way it's a Wisdom skill helps with this rationalisation.
Moridan wrote:
sorry, but thats a little hard when u can't actually screen shot someone you only see for a split second when you enter a transition.
Urm...given the NWN hitbox system is a little screwy, I don't buy the IC justification that you bumped into this sneaky person, so you're in purest metagameland if you're tossing IC countermeasures around after exploiting that bug, says I.
Are you talking about the time my Chultan bloke Frank tailed you going to Mystra's to scribe scrolls? In my defence, I was bursting for a piss at the time and reckoned you and Veretta would be over there for more than long enough, so I hopped AFK. I know about the bug and how to avoid proccing it, and I dislike obliging/enabling people to metagame, so if I'd not been urinating or washing my hands at the time, you'd never have known I was there.
Oh, I don't mind admitting I messed up publically: Frank was parked right in front of the portal so the hitboxes trapped Mor's chap there. He's got every right to complain. AFK is bad, kids.
I don't rememember Moridan tossing Light around, but I didn't stick around either, so it may or may not even be the same incident. He already said he does it, but I'm not saying he did it on tha occasion.
Certainly I was an example of the bumpy into-y phenomenon.
I'm glad someone cleared this up, a few people thought that Magical darkness wouldn't allow the use of HIPS, and apparently, some didn't want to listen to other possibilities.
E.g. You don't -need- light for shadows, if there isn't any light anywhere, then everywhere is just full of dark/darkness, one giant shadow, it's no different to a shadow cast by light hitting a wall, except with light, the shadows size would be more limited.
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2k8ste wrote:
TormakSaber wrote:
You're wrong, Magic Darkness works for HIPS.
I'm glad someone cleared this up, a few people thought that Magical darkness wouldn't allow the use of HIPS, and apparently, some didn't want to listen to other possibilities.
E.g. You don't -need- light for shadows, if there isn't any light anywhere, then everywhere is just full of dark/darkness, one giant shadow, it's no different to a shadow cast by light hitting a wall, except with light, the shadows size would be more limited.
One could easily argue magical darkness is shadow - you don't create elemental darkness, merely a magical barrier that is opaque to photons, and apparently absorbs them too.
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this may sound stupid..but shouldnt it be impossible to hide in darkness cause there is no shadows in it, its pure darkness ders no light or anyother source giving you something to hide behind. yes you may be able hide behind a shadow but in pure darkness, ders nothing you actually hide from each other and you shouldnt be able 2 hips just cause u see it dark fact is its pure darkness u cant hide in pure darkness cause its pure.. is should be impossible to try hide in it when you cant make yourself be the same as the area shadow you in, no shadow dancer can make them selfs a form pure darkness so why should they able hide in it, just because its dark, thers no shadows cast and basically all things hard to see in pure darkness but they still impossible to hide in it cause nothing can match it? maybe i just being stupid but isnt that case!
Shadows and dark are the same thing, you don't need light for a shadow. If you put yourself in a room with a small object, turn the lights off and have a torch face that object, notice how on the other side where the light can't reach, it's not just a shadow, but it's pure darkness too.
If you turn the torch off, then it's just a big Shadow, not shaped in any way due to there not being a light sorce to limit it's size and/or it's shape, aka dark/pure darkness/pitch black.
Darkness = Shadow.
Shadow = Darkness.
_________________ Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar Previously known as: Anubis
As far as light is concerned... white is all light, black is the absence of all light. Shadows are black..... no light... darkness is black.... no light... therefore, darkness and shadow are the same.... on a basic level, at least.
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Even without getting philosophical about darkness = shadow, one could always just argue that the spell simply blocks light, making the interior of te spell darkness as well as shadow.
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A shadow is an area where direct light from a light source cannot reach due to obstruction by an object. It occupies all of the space behind an opaque object with light in front of it. The cross section of a shadow is a two-dimensional silhouette, or reverse projection of the object blocking the light.
An astronomical object casts human visible shadows when its apparent magnitude is equal or lower than -4. Currently the only astronomical objects able to produce visible shadows on Earth are the Sun, the Moon and, in the right conditions, the planet Venus.
and the PHB...
Quote:
darkness: 20ft radius of supernatural SHADOW
In the case of darkness spell blocking light therefore being an area of shadow/darkness/absence of light we find the defendant guilty as charged. please don't turn this into another quantum pyhsics debate. this means SJ through magical shadow/darkness should be acceptable imo. and hiding, unless they have ultravision which leads me to think ultravision is psychic and not just eyes? (third eye type ability or something)
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